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Author Topic: The Enlightenment, Existentialism, and Other Enlightenment Philosophies  (Read 5042 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: May 25, 2008, 12:14:13 PM »

This thread started within the thread, Responding to...defamation? of God....  - PeterTheAleut


Voltaire is a child of the Enlightenment

And that would be a problem why?   Huh

The Enlightment had some good things come out of it.

Ebor
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« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2008, 02:42:05 PM »

And that would be a problem why?   Huh

The Enlightment had some good things come out of it.

Ebor

Not if one believes that "God is dead" according to Nietschze.  My personal belief is that the Enlightenment gives Man permission to become superior to God even though man was made in God's image alone.  Even though Christ said that Satan has been judged, Satan tempts Man into believing that he is superior than God just as Eve thought she would be like God by eating the forbidden fruit. 

If Man feels that he's superior to God, then he feels that he can "judge" and "defame" God.

EDIT - Removed reference to Mel Gibson Movie
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« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2008, 03:05:56 PM »

And that would be a problem why?   Huh

The Enlightment had some good things come out of it.

Ebor

The Enlightenment movement was pure demonic! But what man meant for evil, God and his people can always use for good.



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« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2008, 06:47:18 PM »

Not if one believes that "God is dead" according to Nietschze. 

 Huh  Nietschze is mid to late 19th Century and is not the Sum and only representative.  "The Enlightenment" usually refers to a period in the 17th-18th Century with a growth of science, knowledge and philosophy. Isaac Newton, Linnaeus and other scientists laid the groundwork for advances in knowledge were also Christian. Gregor Mendel who came after and laid out genetic laws was an Augustinian priest.

Quote
My personal belief is that the Enlightenment gives Man permission to become superior to God even though man was made in God's image alone.  Even though Christ said that Satan has been judged, Satan tempts Man into believing that he is superior than God just as Eve thought she would be like God by eating the forbidden fruit. 

If Man feels that he's superior to God, then he feels that he can "judge" and "defame" God.


As you write, that is your personal belief.  On what writings and examples do you base this opinion, please?  And much of the Enlightenment was not "judging" or "feeling superior" to God, but learning more about what He has made.

Ebor
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« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2008, 06:57:59 PM »

The Enlightenment movement was pure demonic!

"Purely"?  Would you please elaborate and give some examples?  Advances in Science and medicine are "demonic"?
 Undecided

Ebor
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« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2008, 09:03:36 PM »

"Purely"?  Would you please elaborate and give some examples?  Advances in Science and medicine are "demonic"?
 Undecided

Ebor
Apparently, the Dark Ages were a divine blessing...... Smiley
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« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2008, 09:21:17 PM »

Huh  Nietschze is mid to late 19th Century and is not the Sum and only representative.  "The Enlightenment" usually refers to a period in the 17th-18th Century with a growth of science, knowledge and philosophy. Isaac Newton, Linnaeus and other scientists laid the groundwork for advances in knowledge were also Christian. Gregor Mendel who came after and laid out genetic laws was an Augustinian priest.

Existentialism is the ultimate end product of the Enlightenment.  If we continue down history, Existentialism is the ultimate result where everything is absurd such as organized religion and heterosexual relationships.  If a "dead" God is also absurd, then why ought man worship something that is absurd?

As you write, that is your personal belief.  On what writings and examples do you base this opinion, please?  And much of the Enlightenment was not "judging" or "feeling superior" to God, but learning more about what He has made.

I read The Stranger by Camus in High School.  Meursalt didn't believe in anything, including God, organized religion, Islam, women or anything else for that matter.  Perhaps Camus was trying to say that "secret organizations" like Freemasonry and Skull & Bones were just as absurd.
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« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2008, 09:31:52 PM »

I would video them and post it on youtube and open it up for discussion.

George are there any of these guys in Oz?

Existentialism is the ultimate end product of the Enlightenment.  If we continue down history, Existentialism is the ultimate result where everything is absurd such as organized religion and heterosexual relationships.  If a "dead" God is also absurd, then why ought man worship something that is absurd?

I read The Stranger by Camus in High School.  Meursalt didn't believe in anything, including God, organized religion, Islam, women or anything else for that matter.  Perhaps Camus was trying to say that "secret organizations" like Freemasonry and Skull & Bones were just as absurd.

Actually the core of existentialism is that you must make your own choices and the realisation that no one chooses for you but yourself. The father of modern existentialism (my favorite philosopher) was Kierkegaard and he was a Christian.
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« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2008, 09:39:03 PM »

Apparently, the Dark Ages were a divine blessing...... Smiley

 Cheesy 

 And Jenner's observations on immunization were 'demonic'?   ummm, No, can't see that.  Wink  Though I suppose there might be some students working through Calculus that think that Sir Isaac Newton was inspired by the Nether Regions.

 Grin

Ebor
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« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2008, 09:44:09 PM »

Existentialism is the ultimate end product of the Enlightenment.  If we continue down history, Existentialism is the ultimate result where everything is absurd such as organized religion and heterosexual relationships.  If a "dead" God is also absurd, then why ought man worship something that is absurd?

Ultimate end product?  Yet here in 2008 we are all in a world that has some of the benefits of the Enlightenment and neither you nor I are Existentialists, nor count that everything is absurd nor that God is "dead". 

Quote
I read The Stranger by Camus in High School.  Meursalt didn't believe in anything, including God, organized religion, Islam, women or anything else for that matter.  Perhaps Camus was trying to say that "secret organizations" like Freemasonry and Skull & Bones were just as absurd.

I read The Stranger in High School as well.  It is hardly a defining book on the world and its beliefs.  Since it was over 35 years ago, I would have to refresh my mind as to what it said, but I can't say that it made much of a philosophical impression on me.   Have you read anything else that you can point to as supporting your opinion please?

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« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2008, 09:45:15 PM »

Actually the core of existentialism is that you must make your own choices and the realisation that no one chooses for you but yourself. The father of modern existentialism (my favorite philosopher) was Kierkegaard and he was a Christian.

Indeed he was and that's great that you have read him, I think.  Smiley 

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« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2008, 10:12:05 PM »

Ultimate end product?  Yet here in 2008 we are all in a world that has some of the benefits of the Enlightenment and neither you nor I are Existentialists, nor count that everything is absurd nor that God is "dead".

Just because You and I and many members of this forum do not agree with Existentialism does not mean that there are not spiritually dead people out there.  How can a child molested by a priest ever believe that Christianity is the way and the life?  Existentialism tells that child that organized religion is a joke; hence, choose anything that will make you forget the pain of being molested like drugs, alcohol, violence, et al.  The Westboro group falls into that category as well because they only believe in the destruction their God imposed on Sodom & Gomorrah and believes that their God is imposing judgment on the USA by killing soldiers in battlefields throughout the world.  I cannot accept Westboro's theology and I do not look for trouble with them.

I read The Stranger in High School as well.  It is hardly a defining book on the world and its beliefs.  Since it was over 35 years ago, I would have to refresh my mind as to what it said, but I can't say that it made much of a philosophical impression on me.   Have you read anything else that you can point to as supporting your opinion please?

Nothing that quickly comes to my mind other than to say that the sources are secular rather than anything religious.
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« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2008, 10:20:34 PM »

Just because You and I and many members of this forum do not agree with Existentialism does not mean that there are not spiritually dead people out there.  How can a child molested by a priest ever believe that Christianity is the way and the life?  Existentialism tells that child that organized religion is a joke; hence, choose anything that will make you forget the pain of being molested like drugs, alcohol, violence, et al.  The Westboro group falls into that category as well because they only believe in the destruction their God imposed on Sodom & Gomorrah and believes that their God is imposing judgment on the USA by killing soldiers in battlefields throughout the world.  I cannot accept Westboro's theology and I do not look for trouble with them.

Nothing that quickly comes to my mind other than to say that the sources are secular rather than anything religious.

You keep saying that existentialists believe that "organized religion is a joke", what do you have to back this up? I am an existentialist and I don't think "organized religion is a joke".
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« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2008, 10:22:05 PM »

And Jenner's observations on immunization were 'demonic'?   ummm, No, can't see that.  Wink


Vaccination started out on a good track until....

The unexplained increased rates in autism due to mass vaccination of children.
The increase in sexual promiscuity by young people because President Bill Clinton said that "Oral Sex was not sex."  Today, the HPA Vaccine, Gardasil, may be given to young men who have throat cancer caused by the same HPV virus.

EDIT - corrected logic in 3rd sentence.
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« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2008, 10:24:29 PM »

You keep saying that existentialists believe that "organized religion is a joke", what do you have to back this up? I am an existentialist and I don't think "organized religion is a joke".

OK, I'm going by my understanding of Camus.  If an existentialist believes that organized religion is absurd, then such a person would likely believe that something absurd is a joke.
Personally, I think something absurd is a joke or nothing worth acknowledging.
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« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2008, 10:28:34 PM »

Existentialism tells that child that organized religion is a joke; hence, choose anything that will make you forget the pain of being molested like drugs, alcohol, violence, et al.
Do you really know what Existentialism is?  This doesn't sound like what little I do know of the philosophy of Existentialism.  If anything, what you describe as Existentialism sounds more like Nihilism to me.
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« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2008, 10:35:36 PM »

^ Well, I guess I may not know all that much, then.  FWIW, the following from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existentialism):

Existentialism is a philosophical movement which posits that individuals create the meaning and essence of their lives, as opposed to deities or authorities creating it for them.

It emerged as a movement in twentieth-century literature and philosophy, though it had forerunners in earlier centuries. Existentialism generally postulates that the absence of a transcendent force means that the individual is entirely free, and, therefore, ultimately responsible. It is up to humans to create an ethos of personal responsibility for themselves, outside of any branded belief system. In existentialist views, personal articulation of being is the only way to rise above humanity's absurd condition of much suffering and inevitable death.

Existentialism is a reaction against traditional philosophies, such as rationalism and empiricism, that seek to discover an ultimate order in metaphysical principles or in the structure of the observed world, and thereby seek to discover universal meaning.

Existentialism originated with the nineteenth-century philosophers Søren Kierkegaard and Friedrich Nietzsche. It became prevalent in Continental philosophy, and literary figures such as Fyodor Dostoevsky also contributed to the movement. In the 1940s and 1950s, French existentialists such as Jean-Paul Sartre, Albert Camus, and Simone de Beauvoir, wrote scholarly and fictional works that popularized existential themes such as "dread, boredom, alienation, the absurd, freedom, commitment, and nothingness". Walter Kaufmann described existentialism as "The refusal to belong to any school of thought, the repudiation of the adequacy of any body of beliefs whatever, and especially of systems, and a marked dissatisfaction with traditional philosophy as superficial, academic, and remote from life".

Although there are some common tendencies amongst "existentialist" thinkers, there are major differences and disagreements among them (most notably the divide between atheistic existentialists like Sartre and spiritual existentialists like Tillich); not all of them accept the validity of the term.
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« Reply #17 on: May 25, 2008, 10:37:45 PM »

Do you really know what Existentialism is?  This doesn't sound like what little I do know of the philosophy of Existentialism.  If anything, what you describe as Existentialism sounds more like Nihilism to me.

In existentialist philosophy absurd holds a specific technical meaning. This is a quote from Kierkegaard

Quote
What is the Absurd? It is, as may quite easily be seen, that I, a rational being, must act in a case where my reason, my powers of reflection, tell me: you can just as well do the one thing as the other, that is to say where my reason and reflection say: you cannot act and yet here is where I have to act... The Absurd, or to act by virtue of the absurd, is to act upon faith ... I must act, but reflection has closed the road so I take one of the possibilities and say: This is what I do, I cannot do otherwise because I am brought to a standstill by my powers of reflection.

– Kierkegaard, Søren, Journals, 1849

The realisation that there is no such thing as "meaning" or "value" to be found in life. This can only be reconciled with faith in God. Kierkegaard speaks very bluntly and truthfully about faith and God and does not sugar coat this immensley difficult concepts.
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« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2008, 10:41:40 PM »

Our theistic Existentialist is Søren Kierkegaard (1813-1855). Kierkegaard is an Existentialist because he accepts, as fully as Sartre or Camus, the absurdity of the world. But he does not begin with the postulate of the non-existence of God, but with the principle that nothing in the world, nothing available to sense or reason, provides any knowledge or reason to believe in God. While traditional Christian theologians, like St. Thomas Aquinas, saw the world as providing evidence of God's existence, and also thought that rational arguments a priori could establish the existence of God, Kierkegaard does not think that this is the case. But Kierkegaard's conclusion about this could just as easily be derived from Sartre's premises. After all, if the world is absurd, and everything we do is absurd anyway, why not do the most absurd thing imaginable? And what could be more absurd than to believe in God? So why not? The atheists don't have any reason to believe in anything else, or really even to disbelieve in that, so we may as well go for it!

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« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2008, 10:43:52 PM »

Our theistic Existentialist is Søren Kierkegaard (1813-1855). Kierkegaard is an Existentialist because he accepts, as fully as Sartre or Camus, the absurdity of the world. But he does not begin with the postulate of the non-existence of God, but with the principle that nothing in the world, nothing available to sense or reason, provides any knowledge or reason to believe in God. While traditional Christian theologians, like St. Thomas Aquinas, saw the world as providing evidence of God's existence, and also thought that rational arguments a priori could establish the existence of God, Kierkegaard does not think that this is the case. But Kierkegaard's conclusion about this could just as easily be derived from Sartre's premises. After all, if the world is absurd, and everything we do is absurd anyway, why not do the most absurd thing imaginable? And what could be more absurd than to believe in God? So why not? The atheists don't have any reason to believe in anything else, or really even to disbelieve in that, so we may as well go for it!

Source

Are you agreeing with this or disagreeing as you didn't post your opinion. I find nothing notably controversial in there.
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« Reply #20 on: May 25, 2008, 10:44:53 PM »

^ Well, I guess I may not know all that much, then.  FWIW, the following from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existentialism):

I did better on exams based on Existentialism than I did on exams related to Transcendentalism.  Plus,The Stranger made for very quick and enjoyable reading.   Smiley
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« Reply #21 on: May 25, 2008, 11:09:41 PM »

Glad to see the ideals of education espoused by the Enlightenment have done their job by teaching you history.

Please clarify the above quote.  Thanks in advance.
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« Reply #22 on: May 25, 2008, 11:11:09 PM »

Please clarify the above quote.  Thanks in advance.
Is this intended to further the discussion on defamation of God or the recently split tangent regarding the Enlightenment?  I just need to know if I should join this post with the thread I just created.
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« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2008, 11:16:11 PM »

Is this intended to further the discussion on defamation of God or the recently split tangent regarding the Enlightenment?  I just need to know if I should join this post with the thread I just created.

Hmmm. - not sure because I was asking the poster to clarify something about how the Enlightenment helped me learn more about history, or something to that regard.  Maybe the post (and underlying initial quote by ytterbiumanalyst) belong with the Enlightenment thread.   Smiley  My sincere apologies.
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« Reply #24 on: May 26, 2008, 12:25:09 AM »

My sincere apologies.
No worries, my friend. Smiley  It was easy for me to just relocate these posts to the proper thread.
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« Reply #25 on: May 26, 2008, 12:31:07 AM »

No worries, my friend. Smiley  It was easy for me to just relocate these posts to the proper thread.

Thank you.   Smiley
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« Reply #26 on: May 26, 2008, 08:24:34 AM »

EDIT - Removed reference to Mel Gibson Movie

Why?
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« Reply #27 on: May 26, 2008, 08:27:59 AM »

George are there any of these guys in Oz?

Actually the core of existentialism is that you must make your own choices and the realisation that no one chooses for you but yourself. The father of modern existentialism (my favorite philosopher) was Kierkegaard and he was a Christian.

Yes, his "Exercises in Christianity" is a classic.  Some also classify Dostoevski as an existentialist, with justification.  As far as philosophies go, it is the one I adhere to.

You keep saying that existentialists believe that "organized religion is a joke", what do you have to back this up? I am an existentialist and I don't think "organized religion is a joke".

Nor I, but many do (Sartre, for instance).

In existentialist philosophy absurd holds a specific technical meaning. This is a quote from Kierkegaard

The realisation that there is no such thing as "meaning" or "value" to be found in life. This can only be reconciled with faith in God. Kierkegaard speaks very bluntly and truthfully about faith and God and does not sugar coat this immensley difficult concepts.

Yes, his attack on Christiandom is on the premise that the king, being baptised, took the difficulty out of being Christian.

Soren is wrong however: man is not a rational being, he is a being who possesses reason.

As for Sartre's conclusion being as valid as Soren's, the self destruction the former leads to does not occur in the latter, which is odd for a philosophy fixated on being and existence.
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« Reply #28 on: May 26, 2008, 08:51:18 AM »



Vaccination started out on a good track until....

The unexplained increased rates in autism due to mass vaccination of children.

"Unexplained" which you have then "explained" by declaring them to be caused by vaccination.  Roll Eyes  May I ask if you have read any of the studies on this that say that there is not a causal effect between Autism and vaccination.  What do you know about people in the Autism/Asperger's Spectrum?  Do you know how it is diagnosed?  I am not a medical person nor a biologist, but there are some here who are. 

Here is a link to a page on the History of Autism of a starting point:
http://www.autism-pdd.net/autism-history.html

Some questions:  How do we know how much Autism might have been present in earlier centuries when a large percentage of children did not live to see their 5th birthday?  Vaccination has made it possible for many people to live to adulthood.   How would the condition be diagnosed in a different culture?  Would a person in the AAS spectrum be able to fit in with say the concentration on some particular thing, or just dealing with the routine?  Considering that Kanner and Asperger studied the condition in the 20s/30s/40s what was the rate of vaccination at that time and what vaccines were being used?

Then there's the interesting case of what some call the "Geek Syndrome".  There is a higher percentage of Autism-Asperger's Spectrum in places like Silicon Valley.  People who in prior times might not have survived or married have done so, finding mates that are like themselves. 
http://www.uoguelph.ca/oaar/G&M-2002-oct-19.html
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.12/aspergers_pr.html


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« Reply #29 on: May 26, 2008, 09:18:43 AM »

The increase in sexual promiscuity by young people because President Bill Clinton ......
Today, the HPA Vaccine, Gardasil, may be given to young men who have throat cancer caused by the same HPV virus.

 Huh  Former President Clinton caused this?  And this is due to the Enlightenment?  May I ask how old you are?  Human Beings have not been 'promiscuous" only since the 18th Century, nor just in the last 15 years or so.

May I ask what is your source for the statement about the vaccine and throat cancer please?

Ebor

edited to correct a spelling error
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« Reply #30 on: May 26, 2008, 12:49:41 PM »

Some questions:  How do we know how much Autism might have been present in earlier centuries when a large percentage of children did not live to see their 5th birthday?  Vaccination has made it possible for many people to live to adulthood.   How would the condition be diagnosed in a different culture? 
I read an interesting article in the British Medical Journal on this and found it particularly interesting. The article discussed folklore in British, Germanic, and Scandinavian cultures in which there is a common phenomenon in their folk tales about "Changelings". The belief was that goblins, fairies or other "spirit" beings would sometimes take a child and substitute it with one of their own. In these folk tales, the "Changeling" child would suddenly display dramatic changes in their behaviour- for instance, they would no longer be affectionate, cry inexplicably all the time, be unresponsive, or become rigid. It is quite possible that "Changelings" were actually based on real experiences with autistic children, and the idea that the spirit world had stolen the original child and substituted another was the culture's attempt to explain and make sense of the phenomena we would now recognise as the spectrum of autistic disorders. Here's a link to the article in PDF format: http://adc.bmj.com/cgi/reprint/90/3/271.pdf
I think we can thank the Enlightenment that we now no longer believe that goblins have stolen children and substituted them with a "Changeling". But unfortunately, we can see that people will continue with folklore even today to try and explain what they don't understand, and will blame vaccinations instead of goblins for stealing children, despite a complete lack of evidence.
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« Reply #31 on: May 26, 2008, 01:10:24 PM »

Thank you very much for the link, OzGeorge!  That looks fascinating. There certainly is a strong similarity between the old tales of how Changelings acted and accounts I've read by parents of how their child changed and was then diagnosed with autism. 

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« Reply #32 on: May 26, 2008, 01:17:08 PM »

Thank you very much for the link, OzGeorge!  That looks fascinating. There certainly is a strong similarity between the old tales of how Changelings acted and accounts I've read by parents of how their child changed and was then diagnosed with autism. 
You're welcome. It is fascinating, isn't it?

George are there any of these guys in Oz?
No.
Aussies are pretty normal. Wink
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« Reply #33 on: May 26, 2008, 03:45:42 PM »

You're welcome. It is fascinating, isn't it?

It certainly is, and the article also notes the MMR Controversy regarding Autism and that it was settled. I also followed some links to read further.  It came to me that a child born with Down Syndrome or other congenital defects could also have been taken for a Changling from such factors as appearance or the passivity due to low muscle tone.  But the Autism/Changling link is extremely interesting.

Later addition: Something else came to me just now and I checked the data.  In the folktales it is more often boys who are taken and replaced with a Changeling and Autism/Asperger's is found more in boys then in girls with the numbers running  3 or 4:1 roughly! 

Ebor

edited to add another point.
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« Reply #34 on: May 26, 2008, 11:29:23 PM »

Huh  Former President Clinton caused this?  And this is due to the Enlightenment?  May I ask how old you are?

You first?  I can say that I'm 4 or 104; after all, this is Internet.   Grin 

Human Beings have not been 'promiscuous" only since the 18th Century, nor just in the last 15 years or so.

In the past, one had to worry about Syphilis whose end results were disfigurement and insanity.  Today, anything goes.  Notice TV commericals talking about how one partner remains disease free while the other partner takes medication during "outbreaks."

May I ask what is your source for the statement about the vaccine and throat cancer please?

Various news articles with their own inherent bias.
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« Reply #35 on: May 26, 2008, 11:31:23 PM »

Why?

I was going to draw an analogy to Passion of the Christ and decided that doing so would not be such a good idea.   Smiley
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« Reply #36 on: May 27, 2008, 01:33:50 AM »

You first?  I can say that I'm 4 or 104; after all, this is Internet.   Grin 

I've never hidden it, and in fact my birthday was last week and that can be noted here on the forum.  I am now 52 years old.  So I can recall back into the early 60s and I remember before Clinton was elected.

Quote
In the past, one had to worry about Syphilis whose end results were disfigurement and insanity.  Today, anything goes.  Notice TV commericals talking about how one partner remains disease free while the other partner takes medication during "outbreaks."

I believe that those refer to Herpes, however, we don't watch much network TV, so I don't have alot of first hand observation on the commercials.  Last I knew, untreated VD was still serious and disfiguring and could lead to insanity.  I'm sorry, I don't get the point you're trying to make.  Medical advances are bad?   Undecided  And in the past, the threat of the "Pox" didn't stop people from doing what they wanted to do much of the time. 

Quote
Various news articles with their own inherent bias.

What about scientifically collected data? Papers from Medical authorities?

 Undecided

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« Reply #37 on: May 27, 2008, 01:43:23 AM »


What about scientifically collected data? Papers from Medical authorities?

 Undecided

Ebor

Ebor how dare you ask for reliable sources Tongue
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« Reply #38 on: May 27, 2008, 01:48:40 AM »

There were many benefits of the Enlightenment period, as His Grace Archbiship +KALLISTOS has said.  But I would also say that there are many detrimental things have come down to us as well.  The Humanistic way of seeing things has definately had a negative aspect on society.
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« Reply #39 on: May 27, 2008, 10:17:36 AM »

Ebor how dare you ask for reliable sources Tongue

 Cheesy 
"You know my methods, Watson."

 Wink
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« Reply #40 on: May 27, 2008, 10:18:46 AM »

There were many benefits of the Enlightenment period, as His Grace Archbiship +KALLISTOS has said.  But I would also say that there are many detrimental things have come down to us as well.  The Humanistic way of seeing things has definately had a negative aspect on society.


Well, what do *you* mean by "Humanistic way" please?  Rather then a general statement, what specifics might be addressed? 

Ebor
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« Reply #41 on: May 27, 2008, 05:30:50 PM »

Huh  Former President Clinton caused this?  And this is due to the Enlightenment?  May I ask how old you are?

My profile says that I'm 34 - which is my actual age.   Smiley

May I ask what is your source for the statement about the vaccine and throat cancer please?

I've provided the APA citation below regarding increased throat cancers in males due to HPV exposure.
Johns Hopkins Medical Institutions (2007, May 10). Oral Sex Increases Risk Of Throat Cancer
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« Reply #42 on: May 27, 2008, 08:42:23 PM »

"Purely"?  Would you please elaborate and give some examples?  Advances in Science and medicine are "demonic"?
 Undecided

Ebor

Anything good coming out of that demonic movement was only because of the goodness of God. What man meant for evil, God meant for good. God can use the evils of men for some good purpose.


My focus in calling it demonic had everything to do with how it influenced various protestant denominational beliefs.

The Congregationalists are Triniterians, but they had a split in the 18 hundreds...or was it the 17 hundreds? hmmm, I forgot what century it was......I'm not looking at anything right now. I'm shooting from the hip, so I might be a little off.

But the Uniterians came from the congregationalists and they reject the doctrine of the Trinity, as well as other doctrines. They were influenced by the Enlightenment movement and they eventually took over Harvard University.....thus influencing the elite of this Nation......and teaching them anti-christian jargon.

And this happened with other groups as well. I call a rejection in the belief of the supernatural demonic, a rejection of the virgin birth demonic, a rejection of the bodily resurrection of Christ demonic, a rejection in the historical existence of Christ demonic.........ect.

You should know what the Enlightenment movement did to the ECUSA.

What modernism did to christian groups in the western world was demonic.....it eventually spread to Rome, and now in recent decades this "faith killer" virus has reached Orthodoxy.

It's pure poison


Maybe I'm being a bit too ruff on the Enlightenment movement. But here is what N.T. Wright had to say in passing

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2007/january/22.38.html?start=2

quote:
Quote
questioner said:
One of Lewis's classic maneuvers is this: Jesus said he was God, and you either believe that or that he was a madman on the level of someone who thinks he is a poached egg. It's a powerful argument that has had a strong effect on a lot of people, but modern source criticism of the Bible has undermined the idea that Jesus claimed to be God.

N.T. Wright said:
My major work has been designed to refute the wilder claims made by some so-called historical critical scholarship. Because now we see only too clearly that the whole historical critical movement was not, as it tried to claim, a neutral, objective, scientific account of the Gospels. It had its own agendas that were heavily driven by the philosophy of the Enlightenment. The movement really started out with the assumption that if there is a God, this God does not intervene in human affairs. In other words, the Enlightenment has already settled Lewis's question one way. It has decided that any Jesus who said John 14:6, "I am the way, the truth, and the life," would be completely out of his skull. Therefore, Jesus couldn't have said it, because we know he was a good man and we want to follow him for other reasons. It becomes a circular argument. Lewis breaks into the circle by simply ignoring the critical possibility.


And what I'm about to post next was on my blog some weeks ago, so I'll just re-post it here:


quote:

Quote
Is Calvinism one step away from Atheism?
It is my view that Calvinism is semi-Atheistic. Especially those Calvinists that are "cessationists" I point the finger at the Zwingli/Calvin Compromise. This compromise was one of the reasons why the Reformed churches couldn't unite with the Lutherian churches.

But I would like to quote a few things by Alister Mcgrath to show that I wasn't wrong for speculating this.

He says on page 146 of his book "Christianity's Dangerous idea: The protestant revolution-a history from the sixteenth century to the twenty-first":



"The appeal of the Enlightenment proved greatest within Reformed circles. For
reasons that remain unclear, rationalism gained acceptance in many former
Calvinist strongholds. Geneva and Edinburgh, both international centers of
Calvinism in the late sixteenth century, were noted as epicenters of European
rationalism in the late eighteenth century. John Calvin and John Knox gave way
to the very different worldviews of Jean-Jacques Rousseau and David Hume. In
marked contrast, the Enlightenment had relatively little impact on Catholicism
during the eighteenth century-unless, of course, the French Revolution (1789) is
seen as a political extension of the ideas of the Enlightenment."
[1]


He mentions this again in passing on page 264 while talking about the stripping away of the "sacred/supernatural" and the rise of the Atheistic worldview.


"While most Elizabethan Protestants were happy to follow continental ideas,
especially those of Calvin, their Jacobean and Stuart successors were
increasingly aware of the need to symbolize the interaction and interpenetration
of the sacred and secular. The poetry of George Herbert can be seen as an
attempt to retain an essentially Calvinist theology of the Sacraments, while
developing its capacity to promote the Church's social and confessional
cohesion.
This decoupling of the sacred from the quotidian, characteristic
of certain types of Protestantism, accelerated the rise of a functionally
atheist worldview in which God was not regarded as an active participant in the
worldview. It is no accident that two sixteenth-century European centers of
Calvinism-Geneva and Edinburgh-had became centers of rationalism two centuries
later.
We shall have more to say about this development later. Yet it is
important to appreciate here that one of the most fundamental characteristics of
Pentecostalism is its insistence that the divine may be encountered in the
secular realm. Its astonishing success points to the reversal of this trend and
the emergence of a new form of Protestantism characterized by its expectation of
the direct experience of the spiritual within the mundane."
[2]



I am not the onlyone who sees a connection between Calvinistic theology with the rise of Atheism. I'm not gonna say all, but alot of Calvinists tend to disregard any idea of "mystery" for the sake of "rationalism".






[1], and [2] by Dr. Alister Mcgrath, from the book Christianity's Dangerous idea: The Protestant Revolution-A history from the sixteenth Century to the twenty-First. Published by HarperOne. Copyright 2007









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« Reply #43 on: May 27, 2008, 09:09:18 PM »

Anything good coming out of that demonic movement was only because of the goodness of God. What man meant for evil, God meant for good. God can use the evils of men for some good purpose.
What is so "evil" about reason and knowledge?

And this happened with other groups as well. I call a rejection in the belief of the supernatural demonic, a rejection of the virgin birth demonic, a rejection of the bodily resurrection of Christ demonic, a rejection in the historical existence of Christ demonic.........ect.
Fair enough, but what has any of this got to do with the Enlightnment? You make it sound as though in order to believe in the Resurrection, the Virgin Birth etc, one has to be Unenlightened, Unreasonable and Stupid.
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« Reply #44 on: May 27, 2008, 09:25:26 PM »


 
Quote
What is so "evil" about reason and knowledge?


I like reason and knowledge. I just don't like it when it tries to change the foundation of christianity. I don't like it when it tries to destroy the concept of the Supernatural. I don't like it when it tries to hog all of reality.....even to the point of rejecting any belief in "mystery".



 
Quote
Fair enough, but what has any of this got to do with the Enlightnment? You make it sound as though in order to believe in the Resurrection, the Virgin Birth etc, one has to be Unenlightened, Unreasonable and Stupid.

This thread has caused me to see that everyone who made use of the Enlightenment wasn't Atheistic. So it's not as black and white as I once thought. When I called it demonic I was only looking at the Atheistic & Agnostic aspects of it. Well at least those who were either Atheistic or Agnostic.


But you are right, I may have seemed that way. But those in the 18 hundreds that rejected all those beliefs were influenced by the Enlightenment movement, but like I said......it's not as black and white as I once thought.





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