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« on: May 18, 2008, 02:37:23 PM »

Can a Orthodox Person Be a Divorce lawyer,and still be in good standing with the orthodox church....for example if he or she, Kept a divorced couple from reconciliating prior to divorce,,,just curious about it..the lawyer didn't want to lose the business so he/she kept the couple apart,,,, can this be considered a sin that warrant's confession......... Huh............Xpictoc Bockpece....SmileyCentral.com" border="0
« Last Edit: May 18, 2008, 04:26:48 PM by Deacon Anastasios » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2008, 02:43:28 PM »

Can a Orthodox Person Be a Divorce lawyer,and still be in good standing with the orthodox church....for example if he or she, Kept a divorced couple from reconciliating prior to divorce,,,just curious about it..the lawyer didn't want to lose the business so he kept the couple apart,,,, can this be considered a sin that warrant's confession......... Huh............Xpictoc Bockpece....

I would assume they could still be in good standing. Sometimes divorce is necessary, and having a lawyer handle it is better than two people fighting over who gets what. However, I would hope they wouldn't try to keep couples apart for money.

But to Veniamin: Congrats!!!
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« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2008, 04:02:43 PM »

I would assume they could still be in good standing.

My ex's first lawyer (she went through three in the first year) is an archon in the Greek archdiocese, though I take it with a grain of salt what that means as to the Orthodox Church (as opposed to the Greek community).

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Sometimes divorce is necessary,


Rarely. Gallagher and Waite's book has exposed that.

Quote
and having a lawyer handle it is better than two people fighting over who gets what.


Yes, having two lawyers (at least!, my divorce has had at least 10 (do state's attorney's count?) and counting in mine) works much better: it helps assure there's nothing left to fight about.

Before no fault, 90% of all divorces were agreed.  It's now the opposite, and that's not in any small part because of the legal cartel.

Quote
However, I would hope they wouldn't try to keep couples apart for money.

Have you ever MET a lawyer?  They don't make anything over happy, intact families.  Hence the push for no fault: none of the problems of having to prove anything, but a guarentee of a constant flow of business, and the fees generated.

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But to Veniamin: Congrats!!!

He'll be the exception that makes the rule.
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« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2008, 07:12:11 PM »

Rarely. Gallagher and Waite's book has exposed that.

I've seen domestic abuse happen too often in too many kids' households at my high school to think this is a small percentage. Many times, people don't get married for the right reasons, or did not know each other long enough to make an informed decision. Counseling only works when both sides are open to it.
 
Quote
Have you ever MET a lawyer?  They don't make anything over happy, intact families.  Hence the push for no fault: none of the problems of having to prove anything, but a guarantee of a constant flow of business, and the fees generated.

I realize this may be the case with some lawyers, but I was referring to those who wish to be considered good Orthodox Christians. And for them, however small a minority it may be, I would assume that their personal morality would overcome the drive for money.


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« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2008, 08:54:40 PM »

I've seen domestic abuse happen too often in too many kids' households at my high school to think this is a small percentage.

You're assuming it's an intact household, your first mistake.  If you look at the rates of male on female abuse (leaving aside the LARGE female on male that mandatory prosecution has undercovered), if husband-fathers are taken out, the rate doesn't change much at all.  The VAST majority of perpetrators are the never married, cohabitating, boy-friend, step father etc.

And yes, no fault divorce has been correlated with the decline in the marriage rate.  More people are not married now in the US than are married.

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Many times, people don't get married for the right reasons, or did not know each other long enough to make an informed decision. Counseling only works when both sides are open to it.

Unilateral divorce has not, nor will it ever, solve any of these problems.
 
Quote
I realize this may be the case with some lawyers, but I was referring to those who wish to be considered good Orthodox Christians. And for them, however small a minority it may be, I would assume that their personal morality would overcome the drive for money.

I don't know, for all the Orthodox lawyers I know, money was a, if not the, factor why they got into it.  For some, it was not as crass as it sounds: one switched when he got tired of trying to make ends meet as a nurse, with two children.



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« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2008, 10:49:21 PM »

Thank God for a good divorce attorney. When my ex, who walked out on me!  tried to take me to the cleaners because she worked for an attorney, my brother, may his memory be eternal, sent me some money to get a good divorce attorney and that man, God bless him, kept me from being totally ripped off of all my earthly possessions!
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« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2008, 12:11:43 AM »

Can a Orthodox Person Be a Divorce lawyer,and still be in good standing with the orthodox church....for example if he or she, Kept a divorced couple from reconciliating prior to divorce,,,just curious about it..the lawyer didn't want to lose the business so he/she kept the couple apart,,,, can this be considered a sin that warrant's confession......... Huh............Xpictoc Bockpece....SmileyCentral.com" border="0

One would assume that once a couple have gone to their respective lawyers all hopes of reconcialiton have been exhausted. As far as I'm aware, it isn't the job of a lawyer to give counselling on reconciliation; that's the earlier job of a spiritual advicer or marriage counsellor. If there weren't good divorce lawyers, people would be at the mercy of their emotions, which are running high and perhaps they are not altogether thinking fairly. Though I have never had a divorce, I have witnessed the impact on those who have. Divorce is a messy business, with much angst and recriminations on both sides. And as we don't live in a perfect world, divorce happens; and it pays to have a good lawyer.

I couldn't imagine that a divorce lawyer wouldn't have good standing in the Orthodox Church, simply for being a divorce lawyer.  Huh
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« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2008, 08:55:16 AM »

I don't know, for all the Orthodox lawyers I know, money was a, if not the, factor why they got into it.  For some, it was not as crass as it sounds: one switched when he got tired of trying to make ends meet as a nurse, with two children.

Unfortunately, there's no money in prosecution, my chosen field.  On the other hand, I do get to wear the white hat and sleep well, knowing that I've helped protect people.
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« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2008, 12:18:19 PM »


Have you ever MET a lawyer?  They don't make anything over happy, intact families.  Hence the push for no fault: none of the problems of having to prove anything, but a guarentee of a constant flow of business, and the fees generated.


Your post is extremely offensive.  Yes, there are lawyers who are money-hungry.  At least in my location, however, the law is still viewed more as a profession that strictly as a business. I am a general practice attorney and that includes some family/divorce law.  I never push for a divorce, and I always congratulate my clients when they reconcile.  When clients tell me they may reconcile, I always tell them the story of my first ever divorce case 13 years ago - it started off extremely ugly, but in the end, they reconciled, and are still married. 
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« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2008, 12:22:01 PM »

Unfortunately, there's no money in prosecution, my chosen field.  On the other hand, I do get to wear the white hat and sleep well, knowing that I've helped protect people.

A lot of times there is no money in defense, either.  I take court appointments which pay 1/2 of my normal hourly fee, and the income generated there pays my overhead, and that's about it. 

I don't think there is a white hat/black hat dynamic in criminal cases; we both play a vital role in the system, and many times it has been extremely rewarding seeing a client have a change of heart and ways because of what they have gone through in the criminal system.   
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« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2008, 02:33:28 PM »

I can not imagine a person who is in this lost world ( at least suppose to be anyway) for the soul purpose of being a 'true' witness to the light of Christ to those who are in darkness and at the same time representing people who live contrary to the light of Christ; defending them in causes that are manifested in sin.

Seems to be rather hypocrytical to me.

The Holy Orthodox Church is not a heritage club (although for most of us that is exactly what it is); it is the true unadulterated Universal and Apostolic Church of Christ. Each of us are a living example of what makes the true church "true'.

If we run with the world becuase we are in it than we make ourselves products of the world and not of the Holy Church. We are commanded by the Lord to be "Holy". How can we dwell in holinees while embracing; even if by indirect conditions ways of thinking and living that are by nature contrary to the teaching and commandments of God?

Why would we defend what Christ and His Holy Church has taught us to avoid altogether.

There is no divorce in the true Church which is Apostoilic and Universal.

The one consideration that is 'considered' is when adultery is present.

It must be understood that does not mean that 'adultery' is a "ground" for divorce as commonly believed. The Church must 'decide' after much review if the marraige is to be disolved. I know a situation right this minute where the couple was not granted a divorce even after almost a year of review which did confirm that adultery was present.

The point is there is NO "bailout" clause in orthodox marriage.

In the Ethiopian Church this is very very important and serious matter. To Ethiopia marriage is a Holy Sacrament which is no more breakable than any of the other seven Holy Sacraments. The point is 'people' corrupt themsleves and need saving. The Sacrament is pure and undefiled. Ordination and Matrimony are pure and unbreakable just like Baptism and Holy Communion. But with Matrimony and Ordination 'people' destroy themselves and are thus removed from the 'fruit' of these Sacraments using the Sacrament of Penance. Thus the Sacarament remains; it is the perosn who is not allowed to partake of it because of the kinds of sins that cause such a harsh Penance.

In my own wedding video at the very end of the 2 1/2 hour wedding service the archbishop stands between me and my bride and pronounced in English and Amharic while placing a large processional cross between us "NO DIVORCE", "NO DIVORCE", "NO DIVORCE"........"there is NO divorce". Then he turned us around and presented us to the world as husband and wife "bound as Christ is bound to His Church".

Of course my certain non-orthodox and non-christian guests were extremely shocked.

My point here is we are defenders of the faith in this lost world. Thus we cannot assist or work in colusion with beliefs and practices that the Holy Church does not sanction or support. To intentionally do so is a terrible situation indeed.

I know a convert who left "Law" all together and became a teacher...He said "The Law I upheld as a heathen is not the Law I believe nor stand for as a Christian and as an Orthodox Christian I am obligated to defend the ancient tradition which is contradicted much to often  in 'mans' day to day legal system". Of course every body can not be like this person. This person is clearly very uncompromising to his belief. This is not to put down those who are willing to do what he was not. But he is a very good example for us all. He since has gotten a teaching degree and is a vice principle and recently made a Reader in the Holy Church.

God bless us all.
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« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2008, 02:48:22 PM »

Some of the posts here brought to mind one of my favorite passages in Gregory the Theologian...

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It is better both to attain the good and to keep the purification.  But if it be impossible to do both it is surely better to be a little stained with your public affairs than to fall altogether short of grace; just as I think it better to undergo a slight punishment from father or master than to be put out of doors; and to be a little beamed upon than to be left in total darkness.  And it is the part of wise men to choose, as in good things the greater and more perfect, so in evils the lesser and lighter.  Wherefore do not overmuch dread the purification.  For our success is always judged by comparison with our place in life by our just and merciful Judge; and often one who is in public life and has had small success has had a greater reward than one who in the enjoyment of liberty has not completely succeeded; as I think it more marvellous for a man to advance a little in fetters, than for one to run who is not carrying any weight; or to be only a little spattered in walking through mud, than to be perfectly clean when the road is clean.  To give you a proof of what I have said:—Rahab the harlot was justified by one thing alone, her hospitality (Josh. 5:25; James 2:25), though she receives no praise for the rest of her conduct; and the Publican was exalted by one thing, his humility (Luke 18:14), though he received no testimony for anything else; so that you may learn not easily to despair concerning yourself. - Gregory the Theologian, Oration 40, 19

Certain jobs need to be done. People might get "dirty" in the process from time to time. That's not necessarily a reason for completely abandoning the job. If it were, there would have been absolutely no Byzantine emperors. Constantine, Theodosius, Justinian, etc. are saints, yet killed thousands of people. That's a bit more dirt than a lawyer might get on themselves if a "bad" case gets put in their hands.
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« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2008, 02:53:38 PM »

Some of the posts here brought to mind one of my favorite passages in Gregory the Theologian... 

Thanks for the quote!  It's a great point.
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« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2008, 06:48:24 PM »

Your post is extremely offensive.

Oh?

Quote
Yes, there are lawyers who are money-hungry.  At least in my location,

Where would that be?

The best description of the situation here in Chicago came from the suburban cop who said "as far as the courts are concerned, there's Chicago, and the rest of Illinois.  The farther you get from Chicago [they call it Crook County], the better it gets."

As things unfold in the national election, there might be more scrutiny here nationally.

Quote
however, the law is still viewed more as a profession that strictly as a business. I am a general practice attorney and that includes some family/divorce law.  I never push for a divorce, and I always congratulate my clients when they reconcile.  When clients tell me they may reconcile, I always tell them the story of my first ever divorce case 13 years ago - it started off extremely ugly, but in the end, they reconciled, and are still married. 

Well, then, God bless you and them.  My divorce lawyer similiarly was not interested in the money, but on ocassion had to admit the stench of the whole business.
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« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2008, 06:57:24 PM »

If Obama gets the nomination, there might be more scrutiny here nationally.
Please keep politics out of the Public Fora. This is why we have the Politics Forum.
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« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2008, 08:22:31 AM »

Can a Orthodox Person Be a Divorce lawyer,and still be in good standing with the orthodox church....for example if he or she, Kept a divorced couple from reconciliating prior to divorce,,,just curious about it..the lawyer didn't want to lose the business so he/she kept the couple apart,,,, can this be considered a sin that warrant's confession......... Huh............Xpictoc Bockpece....SmileyCentral.com" border="0

No.
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