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Author Topic: Looks like we missed Jesus!  (Read 7631 times) Average Rating: 0
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Asteriktos
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« Reply #45 on: July 23, 2003, 09:18:50 AM »

Linus7

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Substitute the name "David Koresh" for Michael Travesser and you have Waco, Texas, and the Branch Davidians in the early 1990s.

The ATF and FBI are going to attack Michael and his followers, killing many of them, and then lie about it to the public? Oh wait, that's not what you meant... well anything's better than exchaning proof texts tryin to show that Michael is... um... whatever they say he is.
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I'll bet I look like a goof.

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« Reply #46 on: July 23, 2003, 09:19:19 AM »

Timothy,

While I realize that you are on the defensive you are attacking some core Orthodox beliefs such as the inseparability of scripture and the Church.  To call it a blasphemous idea is to call our Church blasphemous for proclaiming this since the time of the Apostles.

No one is condeming you to hell; unlike Protestants we do not judge on your salvation.  We can judge though that you are in fact sinning because objectively you are a heretic and heresy is a sin.

If you wish to continue this thread you must immediately change your posting style to be less combative.  Replace your dogmatic assertions with "we believe" or "Michael T. says" but do NOT continue to tell us our beliefs are "blasphemous" or we will be forced to shut down this thread and stop all further discussion of the topic--not becuase some of us PERSONALLY are not interested in it (I can duke these things out for weeks) but because the majority of the people here are regular churchgoers who do not like seeing the Orthodox Faith attacked in its core beliefs on an Orthodox forum.  A good alternative for you to debate other Chrisitians is theologyonline.com.

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Keble
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« Reply #47 on: July 23, 2003, 11:30:43 AM »

Keble,

Not easily reconciled?  I John is one of the simplest books in scripture.  It's like 1+1=2.  Unless, of course, 2 represents something that is a threat to your self-interests.  First of all, the Bible REALLY says:

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.  I John 1:8.

A fair enough correction, which I accept. However, only a fool tries to use a "1+1=2" analogy to a mathematician! What I'm seeing here is a "1+1=1" interpretation. You, presumably in proxy for your master, are seizing upon one verse and then simply filing down the rest of the text to fit. Such a Procrustian hermaneutic is unconvincing.

For example, you say,

Quote
I never said I had no sin.  My life was full of sin and self-interest before I became a Christian.

The passage, however, uses the present tense, not the past. And the chapter following the one you originally cited talks about sinning in the present. So I don't agree that you can use the one verse as the key to interpreting everything else, especially since the interpretation is so obviously self-serving.

You do sin. I see no reason to believe that you don't. That all do sin is the one utterly objectively verifiable claim of Christianity.

Quote
Also, I never claimed that I was better than anyone else because I read the Bible 11 times.  It's just a fact.

No, it's not. If it were not, you would not have needed to say it. It is an assertion of your biblical knowledge, and (indirectly) a claim of your need for Mr. Bent to interpret it for you.

Might I ask which four churches you have attended?

Your compatriot seems to have abandoned, at least temporarily, his defense of his master, so I believe the task of defending his past is going to fall to you for a while. What makes you think that his past shows any indication that he is any better interpreter of these texts than I am, or than the church is?

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Linus7
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« Reply #48 on: July 23, 2003, 12:14:47 PM »


Linus7

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Substitute the name "David Koresh" for Michael Travesser and you have Waco, Texas, and the Branch Davidians in the early 1990s.

The ATF and FBI are going to attack Michael and his followers, killing many of them, and then lie about it to the public? Oh wait, that's not what you meant... well anything's better than exchaning proof texts tryin to show that Michael is... um... whatever they say he is.

Good point, Paradosis. It's pretty clear that Janet Reno and Co. mishandled the Waco situation, but it is also clear that Koresh and his bunch created the climate that made it all possible, if not inevitable.

The whole thing reminded me of what I have read about Muenster in the mid-1530s when the radical Anabaptists took over.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2003, 03:52:01 PM by Linus7 » Logged

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« Reply #49 on: July 23, 2003, 01:19:00 PM »

The ATF and FBI are going to attack Michael and his followers, killing many of them, and then lie about it to the public? Oh wait, that's not what you meant... well anything's better than exchanging proof texts trying to show that Michael is... um... whatever they say he is.

Well, proof texts aren't going to cut it; only some ecce homo is, and the man in question is doubly hidden, unless you go to some cult awareness sites that apparently reveal more than he would desire. For instance, his babble about The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. It is established fact that the book is disinformation put out by the Russian secret police of the era. Anyone who denies this is not of the truth. Mr. Bent is on record as denying that it is relevant whether the Protocols are a "hoax" or not. Therefore he is not of the truth.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2003, 02:52:22 PM by Keble » Logged
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« Reply #50 on: July 23, 2003, 02:51:28 PM »

I have noticed, by the way, that on a page on "Prophesies Fullfilled there is an image which appears to have been stolen from the Astronomy Picture of the Day.

The prophesies themselves appear to be a lot of evasive mumbo-jumbo. They could be interpreted to be directed against renegade former members of the cult.
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« Reply #51 on: July 24, 2003, 12:07:37 PM »

This is a particularly heartbreaking and frustrating thread.

How can we help our new friends and save them from the trouble (both in this world and the next) that we foresee as the inevitable consequence of their misguided allegiance to another one of the many false messiahs that have plagued the world?

I realize the mere exchange of prooftexts, absent some real in-depth exposition and argument, will not be effective.

Sigh . . .
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« Reply #52 on: July 24, 2003, 03:18:24 PM »

I contacted the photographer concerning the picture I mentioned earlier, and he wrote back to say that he had insisted that the picture be removed. I've checked the site and it has indeed been removed, and all the text that referred to it has also been removed, although there is no acknowledgement of this.

Can't think much of an archangel who can't stay within copyright laws.

I understand your frustration, Linus. Unfortunately this is a narrow channel and it's hard to do much other than exchange texts.
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« Reply #53 on: July 24, 2003, 04:09:45 PM »

You're right, Keble.

I've certainly admired the effort you have made in trying to communicate with Benjamin and Timothy.

Maybe it will have a positive impact.

I hope so.

I guess the best thing we can do now is pray.

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« Reply #54 on: July 25, 2003, 02:59:46 PM »

Anastasios,

I did not come here to debate theology.  I came here to bear witness to the truth that has been revealed to me throughout my Christian life.  This would include my acceptance of Michael's testimony.  It is obvious as to why people reject Michael.  It is due to the simple fact that if He is telling the truth, then modern christianity is a fallen religion and those people who have invested their salvation in their "true church" are dead and lost.  This is discussed on our site.


Keble,

Regardless as to what you believe, I don't rely on man for the interpretation of scripture.  The Holy Spirit doesn't need help.  I accept Michael because the Holy Spirit in me has connected with the Holy Spirit with Him.  If there was any evidence of the Holy Spirit in you, I would connect with you.  If you want to judge me as being guily of committing sin because you believe that Christians sin, then go ahead.  All you're doing is fulfilling the following warnings:

And then shall that Wicked be revealed (the selfish human nature that thinks it can be saved by belonging to the "true church" and doing the best it can), whom the Lord (Michael) shall consume with the spirit (testimony) of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:  [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth (CHRISTIANS DON'T SIN), that they might be saved.  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness (All unrighteousness is sin.  I John 5:17.).  II Thess. 2:8-12 emphasis supplied.

Having a form of godliness (staunch adherence to docrtine, theology and Greek), but denying the power (to live free from sin) thereof: from such turn away (come out of her My people-Rev. 18).  II Timothy 3:5 emphasis supplied.

Regarding the picture, Father instructed Michael to use that picture (since Father invented humans, cameras; the sun, clouds, and church in the picture, he isn't bound by copyrights).  However, since Father honors agreements, He instructed Michael to removed the picture at the request of the photographer and was exceedingly blessed over the fact that we are getting hits from Europe!


Linus7,

What are you praying for?  That I'll be converted to your "true church" and go back to deceiving myself into thinking that sinners go to heaven?  If you want to threaten me with the idea that the horns of the beast will harm us, then go ahead.  Call upon your Baal god to send his fire and destroy us.  All you'll do is fulfill the following scripture:

These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him [are] called, and chosen, and faithful.  Rev. 17:14.

The world is going to be forced to confront our message one way or another.  Speaking of proof-texts, I notice that I'm the only person here that is testifying that the scriptures are fulfilled.  All you people are doing is denying this because these things aren't happening according to your expectations.  Jesus didn't appear according to the Jews expectations either.  As Benjamin said, you people truly have missed Jesus.  Speaking of which, Benjamin has stopped wasting his time arguing with the dead long ago.  So have I.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2003, 03:09:29 PM by Timothy » Logged

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« Reply #55 on: July 25, 2003, 03:16:53 PM »

Timothy,

You could have stated your "witness" in a Christian way. Instead you have once again been rude to us (hence you again sin by omitting charity) by calling our God a Baal God.  Therefore, I am closing this thread and I am going to make two requests:

1) To you and your co-religionists: you have made your witness so now return whence you came
2) to the Orthodox: let us not tempt these fellows to return to our forum by discussing them any longer.

Timothy, we have not been hateful to you but you make wild assumptions on why we reject your "messiah."  It's not because we are scared it is because we are happy with the state of our loving relationship with Christ the true God.

Timothy, Orthodoxy is not a dead Church.  We have 2000 years of saints to show us that Christ has existed in the Church from the Apostolic Age until now.  St. Nektarios and St. John Maximovitch are two twentieth century saints who witness to this.  Through their prayers, O Christ our God, show Timothy and Benjamin the true faith!

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« Reply #56 on: July 25, 2003, 10:16:45 PM »

I have unlocked this thread TEMPORARILY because Keble was writing a long response.  He will post his response then I will lock it again.  ***Please do NOT continue posting in this thread***.  If you are like Keble and were writing a response *when I closed the thread* then I will let you post your response also but please let me know by IM.

Thanks,

anastasios
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« Reply #57 on: July 25, 2003, 11:14:42 PM »

It is obvious as to why people reject Michael.  It is due to the simple fact that if He is telling the truth, then modern christianity is a fallen religion and those people who have invested their salvation in their "true church" are dead and lost

"If he is telling the truth....."

It is not obvious to me; and if it is not obvious to me, then it is not obvious.

Though you claim not to, you do present arguments. Those who know me know what I will say to that: if you present arguments, then you bind yourself to the rules of argumentation. The claim you present does not hold water, for it could be said of any cult or even of other religions. You say:

Quote
Regardless as to what you believe, I don't rely on man for the interpretation of scripture.  The Holy Spirit doesn't need help.  I accept Michael because the Holy Spirit in me has connected with the Holy Spirit with Him.  If there was any evidence of the Holy Spirit in you, I would connect with you.

But many say this: Joseph Smith, and Mohammed, and Sun Young Moon, and so on and so on. If I have been touched by the Spirit in the context of an ordinary Eucharist, what does that say?

You have given your judgment over to another, and indentured yourself to him indefinitely. I do not see a value in your testimony, because I do not see you, but only the hand of your master. And this hand does not give me confidence in it, because it writes in the same hand as many another cultic leader, indeed, like David Koresh and Jim Jones, hiding his supposed light in a desert remote from prying eyes.

You speak for him:

Quote
Regarding the picture, Father instructed Michael to use that picture (since Father invented humans, cameras; the sun, clouds, and church in the picture, he isn't bound by copyrights).  However, since Father honors agreements, He instructed Michael to removed the picture at the request of the photographer and was exceedingly blessed over the fact that we are getting hits from Europe!

I must testify that much of this is untrue. I know this because it is I who contacted the photographer and notified him that his image had been stolen. And he wrote me back to thank me for bringing it to his attention, and to tell me that he had insisted that the image be removed. And indeed, I now find that not only is it gone, but the text in which context it appeared is also gone, the article having been edited so as to remove all evidence that this image had every appeared therein. And yet it remains dated so as to obscure this, so that those who now see the tract might believe that it is unchanged since its entry on the day the image appeared in the APOD. I see many other images on the site which give the appearance of having been unlawfully appropriated from other sites, for they seem to be the work of professional photographers, and I have to doubt that permission to use them was granted. It is pathetic that you must claim evidence of interest in Europe when hits you are seeing undoubtedly include the rightful owner of the image verifying that it did indeed appear on your master's site.

The reality is that I have caught your master in an act of theft and deception. I cannot believe that the Father told him to steal and to misrepresent. Shouldn't this tell you something-- that he is abusing your faith in him? Shouldn't this tell you to walk away from him and never look back?
« Last Edit: July 25, 2003, 11:28:32 PM by Keble » Logged
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