OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 25, 2014, 07:56:56 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Looks like we missed Jesus!  (Read 8230 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,487


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« on: July 18, 2003, 03:51:39 PM »

Check out this man who in my opinion is wrong:


http://michael.travesser.com/

anastasios
« Last Edit: July 20, 2003, 10:56:42 PM by anastasios » Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
benjamin
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 5


Place Personal Text Here


« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2003, 10:50:01 PM »

Sir, how do you know?
« Last Edit: July 20, 2003, 11:02:24 PM by benjamin » Logged

NULL
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,487


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2003, 10:52:21 PM »

Because he claims to be Christ, yet his claims are outside of the Church that Christ established--the Orthodox Church, founded on the apostles and continuing to this day.

anastasios
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,487


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2003, 10:57:05 PM »

Benjamin,

Out of respect for my fellow human being I have changed my original post.

anastasios
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
benjamin
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 5


Place Personal Text Here


« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2003, 10:57:38 PM »

Jesus Christ made some claims that were outside of the church that Moses established, founded upon the law that continued to his day.
Logged

NULL
Linus7
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,780



« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2003, 07:16:34 AM »

Jesus Christ made some claims that were outside of the church that Moses established, founded upon the law that continued to his day.

It only appeared that way to some.

The coming of Jesus Christ and His kingdom was prophesied and prefigured in the Old Testament. Who Jesus is, what He lived and taught, His death and resurrection, were all in perfect continuity with what God established with Moses.

This other guy, however, has simply gone 'round the bend.
Logged

The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
- Pope St. Hormisdas
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,096


Goodbye for now, my friend


« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2003, 10:21:17 AM »

Quote
Sir, how do you know?

Unless I slept through the trumpets blaring in the sky, it's not him. Wink
Logged

Paradosis ≠ Asteriktos ≠ Justin
benjamin
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 5


Place Personal Text Here


« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2003, 10:27:57 AM »

I agree that it appeared he was contrary to the law and the prophets, especially to those within the established religion.  But in reality everything he did and taught was a fulfillment of the scriptures.

Nobody, not even His closest disciples, understood these things until He was gone.  While He was amongst them, He was always overthrowing their fondest hopes and most cherished beliefs.  To some He was 'round the bend, as you say.  To others, He was a disappointment.  His claims were totally absurd to the reasonable mind, because everyone knew how the Messiah was supposed to come.  Finally everyone deserted Him in the end.

Two millennia later we can look back and say, "Yes, that was the Christ", and we glorify our own concept of who He was.  Yet, if we lived in those times, would we have had the same response as what I have seen here?  "Wacko" is one word that was used.

God doesn't pander to our beliefs about Him.  He does what He wants, and He can do a new thing.  The Bible is full of God's shocking surprises that overthrow the proud and complacent. Jesus used the analogy of the thief in the night.

I understand completely your opinion about this man, and I've had to lay down my own pride and my preconceived ideas about what the Messiah is supposed to be.  But ultimately we must hear the witness of God within us, revealing His Son to us.  It has always been that way, and without that witness all of our beliefs about God are in vain.

I will conclude that I believe this Man, Michael Travesser, is the fulfillment of the New Testament prophecies regarding the return of Christ and the Marriage of the Lamb.  I can say that without hesitation because the same Christ spirit that came into Wayne Bent (Michael Travesser), has also come into me.  This is the final work of God in the earth, the revelation of Christ not just in one man, but in all who believe. This is what the Second Coming is all about, and I tell you, it is here.
Logged

NULL
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,096


Goodbye for now, my friend


« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2003, 10:33:35 AM »

I doubt anything I say will change your mind, though I will certainly pray for you.
Logged

Paradosis ≠ Asteriktos ≠ Justin
Hypo-Ortho
Guest
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2003, 10:39:50 AM »

<BIG SNIP>
I will conclude that I believe this Man, Michael Travesser, is the fulfillment of the New Testament prophecies regarding the return of Christ and the Marriage of the Lamb.  I can say that without hesitation because the same Christ spirit that came into Wayne Bent (Michael Travesser), has also come into me.  This is the final work of God in the earth, the revelation of Christ not just in one man, but in all who believe. This is what the Second Coming is all about, and I tell you, it is here.

Benjamin, we are trying to be polite to you, but bear in mind that you are in an Orthodox Christian forum propagating heretical beliefs from our standpoint.  Further posts of this type will not be tolerated, even in the "Unmoderated Forum."

Hypo-Ortho
Logged
benjamin
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 5


Place Personal Text Here


« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2003, 10:40:57 AM »

Yes, and I doubt I will change anyone's mind as well.  The title of this thread has a certain irony to it.
Logged

NULL
Frobie
Quasi Vero Monaco
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 633


Rublev's Trinity


WWW
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2003, 11:15:54 AM »

Let's all hear it for Sola Scriptura!
Logged
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,487


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2003, 11:37:50 AM »

Benjamin,

We experience Christ every time we receive him physically in the Eucharist.

anastasios
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,487


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2003, 11:38:36 AM »

Also due to theosis we are divinized and become one with God if we allow him to work in us, and the evidence in such saints as St. John Maximovitch who was a wonderworker who died in 1966 in San Francisco is proof enough for me.

anastasios
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
Linus7
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,780



« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2003, 11:49:02 AM »


Oh, Benjamin! Please do not let yourself be led astray by false messiahs!

Didn't Jesus say that many would come claiming to be the Messiah, but that we were not to believe them?

Didn't the angels tell Jesus' followers that Jesus would return just as they had seen Him go, in the clouds?

Doesn't the Bible tell us that every eye will see Him, that He will return at the Last Day with the Last Trump sounded by the Archangel? Doesn't it say that He will return accompanied by His saints and angels, in flaming fire taking vengence on those who don't know God?

When I was a teenager I went to church with a girl who had a male relative who claimed to be the Christ.

He wasn't.

Neither is Wayne Bent.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2003, 11:52:34 AM by Linus7 » Logged

The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
- Pope St. Hormisdas
Elisha
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,441


« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2003, 12:50:26 PM »

Check out this man who in my opinion is wrong:


http://michael.travesser.com/

anastasios

Just another dime a dozen self proclaimed messiah and crackpot.  Why are we even bothering to discuss this?
Logged
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,487


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2003, 01:28:23 PM »

Check out this man who in my opinion is wrong:


http://michael.travesser.com/

anastasios

Just another dime a dozen self proclaimed messiah and crackpot.  Why are we even bothering to discuss this?

Dear Elisha,

1) Because I have a personal interest in sects.  (no one read that the wrong way!) Wink

2) I think it's important to understand folks like this

3) As was the case, when you link to another site sometimes the traffic returns to your site, allowing someone in his organization to be confronted with Orthodoxy.

In Christ,

anastasios
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,432



« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2003, 01:34:18 PM »

Well, partly it's because a passing "adherent" appeared, and partly because the Usual Anathemas have to be pronounced.

It is curious looking at their real website. Some of what he says is sensible in its way, and lots of it is low-content stream-of-theologizing hot air, and here and there are nuggets of real nonsense. I am led to speculate what he would have become were he instructed in orthodoxy (or for that matter, Orthodoxy).

The curious obscurity of the site is instructive. It gives the whole thing a Gnostic feeling. Jesus taught in the marketplace, but this fellow hides himself within a website.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2003, 02:22:02 PM by Keble » Logged
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,432



« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2003, 02:37:53 PM »

3) As was the case, when you link to another site sometimes the traffic returns to your site, allowing someone in his organization to be confronted with Orthodoxy.

It is curious how quickly someone found this forum-- one can see that this Benjamin just registered, presumably for the purpose of addressing the issue of his master. (Assuming he is what he says he is.) This forum doesn't show up on Google; presumably it does on some other search engine or method, but I don't care to take the time.

What does show up in Google is an interesting page from a cult awareness site. The information on this site is a little dated (e.g. it has an entry for Madelyn Murray O'Hair but it doesn't mention the discovery of her body) and some of what it says about this fellow is outdated. For instance, the two other websites mentioned now redirect to his main site. However, it is plain from comparing this with the original website that there are some significant holes in his narrative.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2003, 02:39:25 PM by Keble » Logged
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,487


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2003, 02:42:15 PM »

Keble,

Just to clear up any misunderstandings anyone might be having, I typed in "Orthodox Church" in google and Benjamin's master's site popped up in an ad.  So I went there, was interested in the content, and posted the link here.  Now they must have someone checking their logs daily because within 1 day he registered and posted here, presumably after seeing our site and the thread with the link to his master showing up on their link referral page.

anastasios
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,096


Goodbye for now, my friend


« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2003, 02:45:38 PM »

Keble,

I'm not sure what you mean by this forum not showing up on Google? Do you mean that the content of each individual thread doesn't show up on a Google search, or that the site in general doesn't show up? Just curious as I've seen OC.net pages come up in google searches before. In fact, I just typed in "keble orthodox christianity" and OC.net was the third site listed. Smiley
Logged

Paradosis ≠ Asteriktos ≠ Justin
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,432



« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2003, 03:15:40 PM »

Well, that's interesting, because after 12 pages of Google listings it hadn't shown up when I looked. But it's the only listing that shows up when you run "orthodoxchristianity" together-- and more importantly, the front page is the only page it sees on the site. It does appear that someone went looking through the forums to see why an interest was shown in the other site.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2003, 03:17:50 PM by Keble » Logged
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,487


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2003, 03:19:08 PM »

Yes, I have been trying to get google to recognize our site for months.  Sometimes we are #2 or 3 and sometimes we are on page 13.  I use meta tags but that doesn't seem to do much. I need a better solution--do you know of one?  I think google indexes also by linking--so anyone with their own personal webpage that wants to link to us please do so!

anastasios
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,432



« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2003, 03:24:09 PM »

I believe the rankings are heavily influenced by click-throughs; there are articles here and there that say more about it.
Logged
David
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of the South)
Posts: 1,952


Retired GM


WWW
« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2003, 04:22:14 PM »

Also, the site can't just link to you, you have to link to the site as well.  Perhaps an in depth links page with links to member homepages would help.
Logged

"When looking at faults, use a mirror, not a telescope."
-Yazid Ibrahim
Linus7
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,780



« Reply #25 on: July 21, 2003, 08:55:14 PM »

Quote
From Keble: Well, partly it's because a passing "adherent" appeared, and partly because the Usual Anathemas have to be pronounced.

What do you mean by "the Usual Anathemas"?

Are we not "inclusive" enough for you?

What would you have done, let poor Benjamin go on believing Wayne Bent is the Messiah without at least warning him?
Logged

The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
- Pope St. Hormisdas
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,432



« Reply #26 on: July 21, 2003, 11:45:08 PM »

Quote
From Keble: Well, partly it's because a passing "adherent" appeared, and partly because the Usual Anathemas have to be pronounced.

What do you mean by "the Usual Anathemas"?

Are we not "inclusive" enough for you?

What would you have done, let poor Benjamin go on believing Wayne Bent is the Messiah without at least warning him?

Did you read anything from the offending site? It's quite clear that your mere authority as an Orthodox believer isn't going to be sufficient to convince Benjamin of anything-- indeed, it discredits you, in their eyes.

I'm hard pressed to tell whether Wayne Bent is an intellectual fraud or a delusional wacko. Maybe he's some of each. One can see from the cult awareness site that there is, shall we say, a strong element of ellipsis in Mr. Bent's personal history. But the thing is, as long as you play your role out as Dogmatic Believer, this Benjamin gets to play out his role as Dogmatic Dissenter. That is not the road to his disillusionment. Instead, you are playing into his illusion.

Also, the crack about me and "'inclusive' enough" is totally uncalled for. It should be quite plain that I think that Mr. Bent is totally off-base. Obviously he is spiritually dangerous. The point is that routine denunciations are exactly what his followers expect of his detractors-- and you have obliged by providing such.
Logged
nilus
A Finlander
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 48



WWW
« Reply #27 on: July 22, 2003, 02:56:14 AM »

Our Lord warned of such folk there would be people claiming I am He, but not to be lead astray.  Frobisher, has it right, Let's all hear it for Sola Scripura!
Nilus
Logged

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy upon me a sinner.
Linus7
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,780



« Reply #28 on: July 22, 2003, 07:18:13 AM »


Keble-

Your crack about "the usual anathemas" was a slap at the Orthodox Church and those of us who posted comments on this thread.

The fact that you don't like me and find me "dogmatic" is fine with me. In fact, if it were otherwise I would really begin to worry.

No, I did not read Bent's entire web site. I read enough of it, however, to know that he regards himself as the Second Incarnation of Jesus Christ.

I issued no "routine denunciation" of Bent. If you will read my posts, I warned Benjamin not to be deceived by false messiahs and offered him information from the Bible on the way Christ will actually return to earth when He comes. It was the best that I could do besides prayer for Benjamin.

My crack about inclusiveness was aimed at liberal Protestantism. If you choose to be its representative here, that is your business. When you stop, that will be fine with me.

I am not playing any roles, despite your characterization of me and of my faith, which you cannot possibly understand. I don't think Benjamin is playing any roles either. He really believes what he says he believes. It is our task to dissuade him from it, with love, and to pray he will listen.

Look back, please, through this thread and find even one anathema.

You won't be able to.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2003, 07:18:52 AM by Linus7 » Logged

The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
- Pope St. Hormisdas
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,432



« Reply #29 on: July 22, 2003, 08:25:24 AM »

Linus, please.

If you think that criticism of your behavior here constitutes an attack on the Orthodox Church, then you have a major presumption problem. I do not criticize Orthodoxy in your person, because you are not Orthodoxy, but simply a layman. Likewise, your reference to me as a representative of "liberal Protestantism" is not a cutting insight. It's a wildly inaccurate slur.

I'm guessing this Benjamin person is not around anymore. I suspect he popped in to check up on a reference to his master, people made the expected responses, and he popped back out. It is all too likely that nobody here had a chance to really interact with him. I personally was hamstrung by being an interloper myself; I cannot even remotely claim to speak for Orthodoxy.

You flatter yourself if you think that my presumed dislike for you is my motivation. I have to admit that I find much of what you post here annoying; it would dishonest to deny it. But you are not your postings. They are the accident of which you are the substance. And you do not see all of me here, or perhaps even very much of me.

I will concede that the phrase "usual anathemas" was flip. Fo that I apologize. At the same time it still seems to me that there was a quality of the routine in the responses. Anyone who takes Wayne Bent as master knows that Orthodox Christianity rejects his claims. Mr. Bent has this all explained for them-- anyone can see it in what little is revealed in his website. So why is it necessary simply to repeat itt? Is it for Benjamin's salvation, or your own?
Logged
Linus7
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,780



« Reply #30 on: July 22, 2003, 12:04:03 PM »


Quote
From Keble:
Linus, please.

If you think that criticism of your behavior here constitutes an attack on the Orthodox Church, then you have a major presumption problem.

Since you did not refer to "Linus' usual anathemas" but simply to "the usual anathemas", it was not clear that you were rebuking me and my "behavior".

It looked like a slap at all the Orthodox who had posted to this thread.

Since you were only criticizing me, that's okay then (I guess).

Quote
From Keble: I do not criticize Orthodoxy in your person, because you are not Orthodoxy, but simply a layman.

It was not clear you were criticizing me alone, since my name was not mentioned.

I know I am not Orthodoxy. What I post here are my own opinions, obviously.

Quote
From Keble: Likewise, your reference to me as a representative of "liberal Protestantism" is not a cutting insight. It's a wildly inaccurate slur.

It takes little insight to come to the conclusion that you are a liberal Protestant, Keble.

If that is "wildly inaccurate" your posts are doing little to clear up the misperception.

I'm not the only one who thinks so, though I may be the only one with the temerity to say it.

Quote
From Keble: I'm guessing this Benjamin person is not around anymore. I suspect he popped in to check up on a reference to his master, people made the expected responses, and he popped back out. It is all too likely that nobody here had a chance to really interact with him. I personally was hamstrung by being an interloper myself; I cannot even remotely claim to speak for Orthodoxy.

As a matter of fact, Benjamin has visited this site a few times since his initial post.

We could not assume he would not come back and just ignore what he had to say.

I think it was important to warn him about what the Bible has to say with regard to the Second Coming of Christ and false messiahs. What he does with the info is between him and the Holy Spirit.

Quote
From Keble: You flatter yourself if you think that my presumed dislike for you is my motivation.

I don't think it is your primary motivation, no. But it does seem to motivate you, at least in part.

Quote
From keble: I have to admit that I find much of what you post here annoying; it would dishonest to deny it. But you are not your postings. They are the accident of which you are the substance. And you do not see all of me here, or perhaps even very much of me.

If my posts annoy you, that is to be expected. We do not believe alike.

I enjoyed the dig at my recent thread on transubstantiation, which I began not in order to give myself a chance to pontificate but in order to get some clarification.

I realize I don't see all of you here. At times I am at a loss to understand your apparent animosity toward me.

I don't disagree with everything you have to say, as you seem to with what I post. There have been times I have even agreed with you and said so.

Quote
From Keble: I will concede that the phrase "usual anathemas" was flip. Fo that I apologize.

Okay. Accepted.

I'm guilty of that myself sometimes.

Quote
From Keble: At the same time it still seems to me that there was a quality of the routine in the responses. Anyone who takes Wayne Bent as master knows that Orthodox Christianity rejects his claims. Mr. Bent has this all explained for them-- anyone can see it in what little is revealed in his website. So why is it necessary simply to repeat itt? Is it for Benjamin's salvation, or your own?


I'm sorry if what I said seemed routine to you. It did not seem that way to me.

I was addressing myself to Benjamin in an effort to divert him from disaster.

It is our duty to present the truth when we have the opportunity. That's what I tried to do.

Perhaps what we said here caused Benjamin to look again at what Jesus had to say about His Second Coming. Who knows?

Maybe it helped.

If we are silent then the only one being heard is Bent.

Regarding whether I was seeking Benjamin's salvation or my own, the answer is both.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2003, 12:23:49 PM by Linus7 » Logged

The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
- Pope St. Hormisdas
benjamin
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 5


Place Personal Text Here


« Reply #31 on: July 22, 2003, 12:59:01 PM »

Quote
From Hypo-Ortho: Benjamin, we are trying to be polite to you, but bear in mind that you are in an Orthodox Christian forum propagating heretical beliefs from our standpoint.  Further posts of this type will not be tolerated, even in the "Unmoderated Forum."

Hypo-Ortho, I stand in awe that conversation about masturbation and the sex lives of women is encouraged, but my testimony about Christ will not be "tolerated".  I didn't come here to spread heresy, but to make a rebuttal to the opening post in this public thread that called my Friend a wacko.  I simply wanted to ask how he knew that, because it was clear he had made a judgment based on his religious prejudice, as most of you have done.  I am intimately acquainted with Michael Travesser, and I can say that you stand in error.  You are shooting at your own imagination about him.

Please be aware, friends, that devout, religious people have burned free-thinking men who history later made into saints.  They will have to answer to God for that.  Please permit me to answer a few more points that have been addressed here, and I will intrude no longer.

Quote
From anastasios: We experience Christ every time we receive him physically in the Eucharist.

With all due respect, sir, I have never seen anyone changed by eating a cracker in a church.  They go home as lustful and selfish as they came.  Deliverance from sin requires a death to self that, before Michael came, I had not imagined in my most lucid moments.  Some of your saints have written about this fact.  When self is dead, then we experience Christ.  This is what Michael has, and this is what he wants you to have.  He doesn't want your worship or adoration.  He doesn't want followers, except those who follow his Spirit which lives inside of them.

Some of these things, as well as what a false christ is, is clearly laid out in his latest article.

Quote
From Linus7: Doesn't the Bible tell us that every eye will see Him, that He will return at the Last Day with the Last Trump sounded by the Archangel? Doesn't it say that He will return accompanied by His saints and angels, in flaming fire taking vengence on those who don't know God?

THESE THINGS ARE HAPPENING RIGHT NOW, but they are seen through the eyes of the Spirit.  You look for literal events that you can see with eyes of flesh, but you will never see it that way, because that is not how spiritual things are seen.  The Jews of Christ's time were hoping in this glorious being who would stand on top of the temple and announce his kingdom.  What came was this dusty peasant man who hung out with the low-life people.  Yet, wasn't he glorious?  The "orthodox" Pharisees and the Saducees didn't think so.  He was a delusional wacko who was obviously wrong, and had to be put away for the protection of their nation.  Hello, aren't these obvious details from the life of Jesus, and their application to us today, worth considering in a "Christian" forum?

WHAT I'M SAYING IS, IF WE AREN'T WILLING TO ACCEPT LIGHT IN WHAT EVER FORM GOD CHOOSES TO SENDS IT, but instead cling to an old form that was for another day, kicking at anything that doesn't conform with our religious prejudice, WE WILL MISS THE COMING OF CHRIST, and be left desolate.  I tell you today that this is now being fulfilled in your hearing.

Quote
From Keble: Jesus taught in the marketplace, but this fellow hides himself within a website.

Sir, Jesus was a normal man doing normal things during his day.  The market, and the temple, and the city gates, is where men gathered to talk and exchange ideas.  Today he would drive a car and use the internet.  People have this fantasy about "the way it was in Bible times", or they way it will be when Christ comes on his cloud of water vapor up in the air, with his angels and trumpets blowing.  Christ does not live in man's "someday" or "long ago" storybook fantasy land.  Those symbols were meant to convey a lesson, not be turned into a fairly tale by men.

Quote
From Keble: I'm hard pressed to tell whether Wayne Bent is an intellectual fraud or a delusional wacko.

Why don't you ask your God?  Isn't He able to make the truth clear to you, or do you rely on your own judgments about things?  If you do that latter, as many devout, pious souls do, you will never see Heaven, and you are not saved.  The voice of God in the soul is the only hope we have of knowing what the truth is.

Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. John 6:45

For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. Matthew 23:39
Logged

NULL
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,487


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #32 on: July 22, 2003, 01:16:21 PM »

Benjamin,

If you have not seen someone changed by receiving the All-Holy Eucharist, then you have not been seeing.

And you must not call it a "cracker" for 1) that is very offensive and 2) we do not use wafers but leavened bread in the Orthodox Church.

If someone has gone home as lustfull you are right, it is because they are not dead to sin. But one is aided in dying to sin by receiving the most Holy Body and Blood of our Savior Jesus Christ.

You obviously do not know of the many Eucharisitic miracles in existence.

anastasios
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,487


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #33 on: July 22, 2003, 01:18:21 PM »

Let me reiterate just to be extra clear: do not in the future insult the Eucharist by calling it a "Cracker".

anastasios
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,432



« Reply #34 on: July 22, 2003, 03:14:56 PM »

Quote
From Keble: Jesus taught in the marketplace, but this fellow hides himself within a website.

Sir, Jesus was a normal man doing normal things during his day.  The market, and the temple, and the city gates, is where men gathered to talk and exchange ideas.  Today he would drive a car and use the internet.

But that is not what I see.

What I see is a man who is holed up in the isolation of the desert, in his own little compound, whose website does not truly reveal but conceals. That is not the modern equivalent of a Jesus who taught in the synagogues and in the temple, where all Jews came together. Instead, it is the mark of a gnostic cult.

And even if it were, such cults are everywhere.

Quote
People have this fantasy about "the way it was in Bible times", or they way it will be when Christ comes on his cloud of water vapor up in the air, with his angels and trumpets blowing.  Christ does not live in man's "someday" or "long ago" storybook fantasy land.  Those symbols were meant to convey a lesson, not be turned into a fairly tale by men.

What fantasy? Tell me what fantasy. I am not "people", Benjamin; I am a single human being. It is a foolish naivete to presume to understand my thoughts about the second coming, particularly since I haven't spoken them.

Do you believe that Jesus walked on the earth, was crucified, died, and was buried? Do you believe that he rose again from the dead, and that his disciples saw and touched him? If you don't, why don't you?

Quote
Quote
From Keble: I'm hard pressed to tell whether Wayne Bent is an intellectual fraud or a delusional wacko.

Why don't you ask your God?  Isn't He able to make the truth clear to you, or do you rely on your own judgments about things?

If he is a willful being, then he is not obligated to tell me, is he?

Quote
If you do that latter, as many devout, pious souls do, you will never see Heaven, and you are not saved.  The voice of God in the soul is the only hope we have of knowing what the truth is.

You contradict yourself, because you presume to speak for God in that very sentence. Where in scripture is it written that God speaks only in the soul? And what is the point of having a webpage then, or speaking teachings? Clearly the voice of God is where he chooses to speak it, and when God Incarnate spoke, he spoke in the voice of God.

Some few people are fortunate enough to be confronted by God so immediately that their personal judgment can not help but recognize Him. Most of us are not so fortunate, and we must choose between the many gods that clamor or whisper for our adoration. My heart tells me that this Wayne Bent is not what he says he is, because my heart and my mind work together on this.

Quote
Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. John 6:45

For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. Matthew 23:39

And yet I speak these words every Sunday morning.
Logged
Linus7
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,780



« Reply #35 on: July 22, 2003, 04:27:21 PM »

Quote
From Benjamin: THESE THINGS ARE HAPPENING RIGHT NOW, but they are seen through the eyes of the Spirit.  You look for literal events that you can see with eyes of flesh, but you will never see it that way, because that is not how spiritual things are seen.  The Jews of Christ's time were hoping in this glorious being who would stand on top of the temple and announce his kingdom.  What came was this dusty peasant man who hung out with the low-life people.  Yet, wasn't he glorious?  The "orthodox" Pharisees and the Saducees didn't think so.  He was a delusional wacko who was obviously wrong, and had to be put away for the protection of their nation.  Hello, aren't these obvious details from the life of Jesus, and their application to us today, worth considering in a "Christian" forum?

Your viewpoint is worth considering, Benjamin, and that's what we're doing.

I'm still convinced you're wrong about Mr. Bent, and here's part of the reason why.

The Jews were looking for a political and military Messiah, that is true. They misinterpreted the nature of God's promises and His kingdom and its goal: the salvation of mankind.

But not all the Jews missed it; in fact, millions of them became baptized followers of the Lord Jesus. There were clear prophecies in the Old Testament that predicted that the Messiah would first come as the Suffering Servant who would give His life for mankind.

Are there comparable prophecies of the secret and purely spiritual coming of the Divine Logos in the person of Wayne Bent? If there are, I have not seen them.

The prophecies of Jesus' Second Coming are clear and unambiguous. His sign (the Cross) will appear in heaven. The trumpet of the Archangel will sound. The dead in Christ will rise first, followed by those who are alive and await His coming. Jesus will return in the clouds, just as His disciples saw Him leave. He will be escorted by His saints and angels. Every eye will see Him - literally - even those who pierced Him, because they will have been resurrected to face His judgment.

When Jesus comes again it will not be in secret. No one will have to tell anyone else, "Go, look. He is here!" or "Go, look. He is there!"

Jesus' Second Coming will not be hidden nor will it require any special enlightenment to perceive it. It will be obvious to all.
Logged

The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
- Pope St. Hormisdas
Timothy
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4


Place Personal Text Here


« Reply #36 on: July 22, 2003, 04:37:13 PM »

I have read the entire Bible 11 times since 1992.  I have also belonged to 4 different churches since then.  My aunt and an ex-neighbor are orthodox.  I have also read everthing that Michael Travesser has posted since I first was led to Him in May of 2001.

One of the things that convinced me that He is telling the truth can be read in His online book, "His Only Gift".  That is, His position and testimony that Christians don't sin.  I have always believed that since I was a child but have never had such a testimony myself until I became aquainted with Him.

Since then I have been sharing the good news of how God has given me victory over sin through the power of the gospel (which has been personified in Michael) and the professing Christian world is livid over that.  The people I've dealt with are adamant over the idea that they're heaven-bound Christians despite the fact that they sin all the time.  They are the ones who are wackos and following a false christ.
Logged

NULL
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,096


Goodbye for now, my friend


« Reply #37 on: July 22, 2003, 04:44:05 PM »

Timothy and Benjamin,

How is your testimony different than the testimony of people from every other religion, philosophy, and world-view?

I truly know I am a sinner, and do sin, because I am frustrated with this type of stuff you bring, and judge you in my heart. You aren't the nut-ball that I judge you as, you're a person made in the image of God, something extremely precious. Yet I can't seem to post to you having that as my starting point. My focus always seems to be negative. I hope you can forgive this sinner, but I think you're dead wrong and in big trouble, and I can't even bring myself to tell you why (since I'd just sound like I was condemning you to hell)! Sad
« Last Edit: July 22, 2003, 04:45:06 PM by Paradosis » Logged

Paradosis ≠ Asteriktos ≠ Justin
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,432



« Reply #38 on: July 22, 2003, 04:50:11 PM »

What makes you think that you aren't sinning? Seems like a lack of self-knowledge to me.
Logged
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,487


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #39 on: July 22, 2003, 04:58:18 PM »

So was St Paul a false preacher since in Romans he tells us he "does the things he knows he should not"?

Timothy, you may have read the Bible 11 times but the Bible was compiled via letters and Gospels read in the context of the Church's liturgical assembly at the Eucharist, and so given that today that same Church exists--the Orthodox Church--it would be a stretch to say that apart from the Orthodox Church you can correctly understand the Scriptures.

anastasios
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
Timothy
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4


Place Personal Text Here


« Reply #40 on: July 22, 2003, 05:54:20 PM »

Paradosis,

Why I am dead wrong and in big trouble?  You can tell me.  I've been condemned to hell numerous times and no one's god has yet been able to remove me from my Father's mighty breast.


Keble,

I'm not sinning because I'm born of God, I know Him, and I abide in Him.  Have ye not read?

Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.  Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.  He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.  Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.  I John 3:6-9.


Anastasios,

No, Paul was not a false preacher when he said in Romans 7 that he "does the things he knows he should not".  He was testifying as to how his life was at one time.  You (and evidently everyone else) assume that that was his testimony his entire life.  Perhaps you should read the rest of the New Testament starting with Romans 8:1.  To say that a person can't understand the scriptures outside of any religious institution (including the Orthodox Church) is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit and a characteristic of the anti-christ.  Have ye not read?

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.  John 16:13.

It was the Holy Spirit that led me in and out of the churches.  It was the Holy Spirit that led me to Michael Travesser.  And it is the Holy Spirit working with the Anointing in me that gives me the power to overcome sin.  The Church is the collective body of Christians with Christ as the head.  And, that body is not infected with sin.

If anyone come bringing any other gospel, let him be accursed.
Logged

NULL
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,432



« Reply #41 on: July 22, 2003, 05:54:58 PM »

I have read the entire Bible 11 times since 1992.

It also occurs to me that reading all of Numbers 11 times is not a demonstration of perspicacity.
Logged
Linus7
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,780



« Reply #42 on: July 22, 2003, 08:18:48 PM »

Quote
From Timothy: It was the Holy Spirit that led me in and out of the churches.  It was the Holy Spirit that led me to Michael Travesser.  And it is the Holy Spirit working with the Anointing in me that gives me the power to overcome sin.  The Church is the collective body of Christians with Christ as the head.  And, that body is not infected with sin.

Substitute the name "David Koresh" for Michael Travesser and you have Waco, Texas, and the Branch Davidians in the early 1990s.

Replace the name Michael Travesser with "Jim Jones" and you have Jonestown, Guyana, in the late 1970s.

False messiahs come and go. Jesus predicted they would.

What final splash will Wayne Bent make as "Michael Travesser"?

Will he take you and Benjamin down with him, Timothy?
Logged

The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
- Pope St. Hormisdas
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,432



« Reply #43 on: July 22, 2003, 10:31:27 PM »

Keble,

I'm not sinning because I'm born of God, I know Him, and I abide in Him.  Have ye not read?

Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.  Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.  He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.  Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. I John 3:6-9.

And yet in another place it says, "If we say that we do not sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." And then there is what is spoken in the other chapters of the letter from which you quote. All of this is not so easily reconciled; yea, it even contradicts your interpretation of these verses. Thus your argument is not good enough, and indeed, the gnostic color is there again.

If you say that you do not sin, then you do not know yourself, or worse, you lie to yourself. You do sin.
Logged
Timothy
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4


Place Personal Text Here


« Reply #44 on: July 23, 2003, 08:14:27 AM »

Linus7,

You forgot Herf Applewhite and the Hale-Bopp comet crew.  While you're waiting for Michael's "big splash" you overlook the fact that your false christ (whom you call "jesus") is already "sunk" and the bickering I see amongst yourselves on this thread and people's defense of sin testifies to it.  Have ye not read?

By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.  John 13:35.


Keble,

Not easily reconciled?  I John is one of the simplest books in scripture.  It's like 1+1=2.  Unless, of course, 2 represents something that is a threat to your self-interests.  First of all, the Bible REALLY says:

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.  I John 1:8.

I never said I had no sin.  My life was full of sin and self-interest before I became a Christian.  What I said is that Christians don't sin.  There's nothing gnostic about that.  That's the TRUTH!

Also, I never claimed that I was better than anyone else because I read the Bible 11 times.  It's just a fact.
Logged

NULL
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,096


Goodbye for now, my friend


« Reply #45 on: July 23, 2003, 09:18:50 AM »

Linus7

Quote
Substitute the name "David Koresh" for Michael Travesser and you have Waco, Texas, and the Branch Davidians in the early 1990s.

The ATF and FBI are going to attack Michael and his followers, killing many of them, and then lie about it to the public? Oh wait, that's not what you meant... well anything's better than exchaning proof texts tryin to show that Michael is... um... whatever they say he is.
Logged

Paradosis ≠ Asteriktos ≠ Justin
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,487


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #46 on: July 23, 2003, 09:19:19 AM »

Timothy,

While I realize that you are on the defensive you are attacking some core Orthodox beliefs such as the inseparability of scripture and the Church.  To call it a blasphemous idea is to call our Church blasphemous for proclaiming this since the time of the Apostles.

No one is condeming you to hell; unlike Protestants we do not judge on your salvation.  We can judge though that you are in fact sinning because objectively you are a heretic and heresy is a sin.

If you wish to continue this thread you must immediately change your posting style to be less combative.  Replace your dogmatic assertions with "we believe" or "Michael T. says" but do NOT continue to tell us our beliefs are "blasphemous" or we will be forced to shut down this thread and stop all further discussion of the topic--not becuase some of us PERSONALLY are not interested in it (I can duke these things out for weeks) but because the majority of the people here are regular churchgoers who do not like seeing the Orthodox Faith attacked in its core beliefs on an Orthodox forum.  A good alternative for you to debate other Chrisitians is theologyonline.com.

anastasios
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,432



« Reply #47 on: July 23, 2003, 11:30:43 AM »

Keble,

Not easily reconciled?  I John is one of the simplest books in scripture.  It's like 1+1=2.  Unless, of course, 2 represents something that is a threat to your self-interests.  First of all, the Bible REALLY says:

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.  I John 1:8.

A fair enough correction, which I accept. However, only a fool tries to use a "1+1=2" analogy to a mathematician! What I'm seeing here is a "1+1=1" interpretation. You, presumably in proxy for your master, are seizing upon one verse and then simply filing down the rest of the text to fit. Such a Procrustian hermaneutic is unconvincing.

For example, you say,

Quote
I never said I had no sin.  My life was full of sin and self-interest before I became a Christian.

The passage, however, uses the present tense, not the past. And the chapter following the one you originally cited talks about sinning in the present. So I don't agree that you can use the one verse as the key to interpreting everything else, especially since the interpretation is so obviously self-serving.

You do sin. I see no reason to believe that you don't. That all do sin is the one utterly objectively verifiable claim of Christianity.

Quote
Also, I never claimed that I was better than anyone else because I read the Bible 11 times.  It's just a fact.

No, it's not. If it were not, you would not have needed to say it. It is an assertion of your biblical knowledge, and (indirectly) a claim of your need for Mr. Bent to interpret it for you.

Might I ask which four churches you have attended?

Your compatriot seems to have abandoned, at least temporarily, his defense of his master, so I believe the task of defending his past is going to fall to you for a while. What makes you think that his past shows any indication that he is any better interpreter of these texts than I am, or than the church is?

Logged
Linus7
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,780



« Reply #48 on: July 23, 2003, 12:14:47 PM »


Linus7

Quote
Substitute the name "David Koresh" for Michael Travesser and you have Waco, Texas, and the Branch Davidians in the early 1990s.

The ATF and FBI are going to attack Michael and his followers, killing many of them, and then lie about it to the public? Oh wait, that's not what you meant... well anything's better than exchaning proof texts tryin to show that Michael is... um... whatever they say he is.

Good point, Paradosis. It's pretty clear that Janet Reno and Co. mishandled the Waco situation, but it is also clear that Koresh and his bunch created the climate that made it all possible, if not inevitable.

The whole thing reminded me of what I have read about Muenster in the mid-1530s when the radical Anabaptists took over.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2003, 03:52:01 PM by Linus7 » Logged

The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
- Pope St. Hormisdas
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,432



« Reply #49 on: July 23, 2003, 01:19:00 PM »

The ATF and FBI are going to attack Michael and his followers, killing many of them, and then lie about it to the public? Oh wait, that's not what you meant... well anything's better than exchanging proof texts trying to show that Michael is... um... whatever they say he is.

Well, proof texts aren't going to cut it; only some ecce homo is, and the man in question is doubly hidden, unless you go to some cult awareness sites that apparently reveal more than he would desire. For instance, his babble about The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. It is established fact that the book is disinformation put out by the Russian secret police of the era. Anyone who denies this is not of the truth. Mr. Bent is on record as denying that it is relevant whether the Protocols are a "hoax" or not. Therefore he is not of the truth.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2003, 02:52:22 PM by Keble » Logged
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,432



« Reply #50 on: July 23, 2003, 02:51:28 PM »

I have noticed, by the way, that on a page on "Prophesies Fullfilled there is an image which appears to have been stolen from the Astronomy Picture of the Day.

The prophesies themselves appear to be a lot of evasive mumbo-jumbo. They could be interpreted to be directed against renegade former members of the cult.
Logged
Linus7
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,780



« Reply #51 on: July 24, 2003, 12:07:37 PM »

This is a particularly heartbreaking and frustrating thread.

How can we help our new friends and save them from the trouble (both in this world and the next) that we foresee as the inevitable consequence of their misguided allegiance to another one of the many false messiahs that have plagued the world?

I realize the mere exchange of prooftexts, absent some real in-depth exposition and argument, will not be effective.

Sigh . . .
Logged

The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
- Pope St. Hormisdas
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,432



« Reply #52 on: July 24, 2003, 03:18:24 PM »

I contacted the photographer concerning the picture I mentioned earlier, and he wrote back to say that he had insisted that the picture be removed. I've checked the site and it has indeed been removed, and all the text that referred to it has also been removed, although there is no acknowledgement of this.

Can't think much of an archangel who can't stay within copyright laws.

I understand your frustration, Linus. Unfortunately this is a narrow channel and it's hard to do much other than exchange texts.
Logged
Linus7
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,780



« Reply #53 on: July 24, 2003, 04:09:45 PM »

You're right, Keble.

I've certainly admired the effort you have made in trying to communicate with Benjamin and Timothy.

Maybe it will have a positive impact.

I hope so.

I guess the best thing we can do now is pray.

Logged

The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
- Pope St. Hormisdas
Timothy
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4


Place Personal Text Here


« Reply #54 on: July 25, 2003, 02:59:46 PM »

Anastasios,

I did not come here to debate theology.  I came here to bear witness to the truth that has been revealed to me throughout my Christian life.  This would include my acceptance of Michael's testimony.  It is obvious as to why people reject Michael.  It is due to the simple fact that if He is telling the truth, then modern christianity is a fallen religion and those people who have invested their salvation in their "true church" are dead and lost.  This is discussed on our site.


Keble,

Regardless as to what you believe, I don't rely on man for the interpretation of scripture.  The Holy Spirit doesn't need help.  I accept Michael because the Holy Spirit in me has connected with the Holy Spirit with Him.  If there was any evidence of the Holy Spirit in you, I would connect with you.  If you want to judge me as being guily of committing sin because you believe that Christians sin, then go ahead.  All you're doing is fulfilling the following warnings:

And then shall that Wicked be revealed (the selfish human nature that thinks it can be saved by belonging to the "true church" and doing the best it can), whom the Lord (Michael) shall consume with the spirit (testimony) of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:  [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth (CHRISTIANS DON'T SIN), that they might be saved.  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness (All unrighteousness is sin.  I John 5:17.).  II Thess. 2:8-12 emphasis supplied.

Having a form of godliness (staunch adherence to docrtine, theology and Greek), but denying the power (to live free from sin) thereof: from such turn away (come out of her My people-Rev. 18).  II Timothy 3:5 emphasis supplied.

Regarding the picture, Father instructed Michael to use that picture (since Father invented humans, cameras; the sun, clouds, and church in the picture, he isn't bound by copyrights).  However, since Father honors agreements, He instructed Michael to removed the picture at the request of the photographer and was exceedingly blessed over the fact that we are getting hits from Europe!


Linus7,

What are you praying for?  That I'll be converted to your "true church" and go back to deceiving myself into thinking that sinners go to heaven?  If you want to threaten me with the idea that the horns of the beast will harm us, then go ahead.  Call upon your Baal god to send his fire and destroy us.  All you'll do is fulfill the following scripture:

These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him [are] called, and chosen, and faithful.  Rev. 17:14.

The world is going to be forced to confront our message one way or another.  Speaking of proof-texts, I notice that I'm the only person here that is testifying that the scriptures are fulfilled.  All you people are doing is denying this because these things aren't happening according to your expectations.  Jesus didn't appear according to the Jews expectations either.  As Benjamin said, you people truly have missed Jesus.  Speaking of which, Benjamin has stopped wasting his time arguing with the dead long ago.  So have I.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2003, 03:09:29 PM by Timothy » Logged

NULL
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,487


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #55 on: July 25, 2003, 03:16:53 PM »

Timothy,

You could have stated your "witness" in a Christian way. Instead you have once again been rude to us (hence you again sin by omitting charity) by calling our God a Baal God.  Therefore, I am closing this thread and I am going to make two requests:

1) To you and your co-religionists: you have made your witness so now return whence you came
2) to the Orthodox: let us not tempt these fellows to return to our forum by discussing them any longer.

Timothy, we have not been hateful to you but you make wild assumptions on why we reject your "messiah."  It's not because we are scared it is because we are happy with the state of our loving relationship with Christ the true God.

Timothy, Orthodoxy is not a dead Church.  We have 2000 years of saints to show us that Christ has existed in the Church from the Apostolic Age until now.  St. Nektarios and St. John Maximovitch are two twentieth century saints who witness to this.  Through their prayers, O Christ our God, show Timothy and Benjamin the true faith!

anastasios
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,487


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #56 on: July 25, 2003, 10:16:45 PM »

I have unlocked this thread TEMPORARILY because Keble was writing a long response.  He will post his response then I will lock it again.  ***Please do NOT continue posting in this thread***.  If you are like Keble and were writing a response *when I closed the thread* then I will let you post your response also but please let me know by IM.

Thanks,

anastasios
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,432



« Reply #57 on: July 25, 2003, 11:14:42 PM »

It is obvious as to why people reject Michael.  It is due to the simple fact that if He is telling the truth, then modern christianity is a fallen religion and those people who have invested their salvation in their "true church" are dead and lost

"If he is telling the truth....."

It is not obvious to me; and if it is not obvious to me, then it is not obvious.

Though you claim not to, you do present arguments. Those who know me know what I will say to that: if you present arguments, then you bind yourself to the rules of argumentation. The claim you present does not hold water, for it could be said of any cult or even of other religions. You say:

Quote
Regardless as to what you believe, I don't rely on man for the interpretation of scripture.  The Holy Spirit doesn't need help.  I accept Michael because the Holy Spirit in me has connected with the Holy Spirit with Him.  If there was any evidence of the Holy Spirit in you, I would connect with you.

But many say this: Joseph Smith, and Mohammed, and Sun Young Moon, and so on and so on. If I have been touched by the Spirit in the context of an ordinary Eucharist, what does that say?

You have given your judgment over to another, and indentured yourself to him indefinitely. I do not see a value in your testimony, because I do not see you, but only the hand of your master. And this hand does not give me confidence in it, because it writes in the same hand as many another cultic leader, indeed, like David Koresh and Jim Jones, hiding his supposed light in a desert remote from prying eyes.

You speak for him:

Quote
Regarding the picture, Father instructed Michael to use that picture (since Father invented humans, cameras; the sun, clouds, and church in the picture, he isn't bound by copyrights).  However, since Father honors agreements, He instructed Michael to removed the picture at the request of the photographer and was exceedingly blessed over the fact that we are getting hits from Europe!

I must testify that much of this is untrue. I know this because it is I who contacted the photographer and notified him that his image had been stolen. And he wrote me back to thank me for bringing it to his attention, and to tell me that he had insisted that the image be removed. And indeed, I now find that not only is it gone, but the text in which context it appeared is also gone, the article having been edited so as to remove all evidence that this image had every appeared therein. And yet it remains dated so as to obscure this, so that those who now see the tract might believe that it is unchanged since its entry on the day the image appeared in the APOD. I see many other images on the site which give the appearance of having been unlawfully appropriated from other sites, for they seem to be the work of professional photographers, and I have to doubt that permission to use them was granted. It is pathetic that you must claim evidence of interest in Europe when hits you are seeing undoubtedly include the rightful owner of the image verifying that it did indeed appear on your master's site.

The reality is that I have caught your master in an act of theft and deception. I cannot believe that the Father told him to steal and to misrepresent. Shouldn't this tell you something-- that he is abusing your faith in him? Shouldn't this tell you to walk away from him and never look back?
« Last Edit: July 25, 2003, 11:28:32 PM by Keble » Logged
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.154 seconds with 85 queries.