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Author Topic: Should a video on Ethiopian icons be set to Ethiopian music?  (Read 5797 times) Average Rating: 0
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_Seraphim_
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« on: May 15, 2008, 05:43:56 PM »

This thread was split off from a discussion about a video on Ethiopian icons:


http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,15814.new.html#new

Salpy

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I came across this video about a year ago... and I thought the same thing.  HOWEVER, when I considered that the music used in this video is an orchestral Western European piece... I figured there wasn't any point worrying too much about ANY of the videos from that YouTube poster.

But now that someone else has brought is up, I would certainly be curious to hear an explanation about this.
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« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2008, 07:36:48 PM »

I came across this video about a year ago... and I thought the same thing.  HOWEVER, when I considered that the music used in this video is an orchestral Western European piece... I figured there wasn't any point worrying too much about ANY of the videos from that YouTube poster.

But now that someone else has brought is up, I would certainly be curious to hear an explanation about this.
So Orthodox Christians cannot enjoy Western orchestral music? That's a non sequiter if I've ever heard one.
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« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2008, 08:21:16 PM »

So if it was by Igor Stravinsky, it would have been fine, yes?   Tongue
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« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2008, 08:47:16 PM »

 Huh

I think you guys totally missed the point.
It doesn't matter WHAT the music was...
if it wasn't ETHIOPIAN then it was rather inappropriate for a video about ETHIOPIAN iconography...
and, therefore, not exactly the most authoritative source...
and, therefore, not to be taken too seriously
(especially in regards to questions as big as this).

I hope that makes it clear enough.
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« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2008, 07:38:49 PM »

I think you guys totally missed the point.
Really? Then why do you say in one breath
Quote
It doesn't matter WHAT the music was...
yet
Quote
if it wasn't ETHIOPIAN then it was rather inappropriate for a video about ETHIOPIAN iconography...
?
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« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2008, 07:56:32 PM »

^ Um... Huh  Yeah, not really following you there.  Undecided 

The music for this video about Ethiopian iconography doesn't even use Ethiopian music... so how authoritative can it really be?
That's the single issue I originally raised, it had nothing to do with "Eastern vs. Western" music, which the two following statements seem to be directly implying:

So Orthodox Christians cannot enjoy Western orchestral music? That's a non sequiter if I've ever heard one.

So if it was by Igor Stravinsky, it would have been fine, yes?   Tongue

If you're still not clear on this, well, I don't really know what else to say.  Perhaps you should be a little more descriptive about what your exact question is.
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« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2008, 08:00:27 PM »

I think I know what Seraphim is getting at.  Years ago, we had a choir director who set the "Lord have mercy"s to music by Handel.  It was just weird.   
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« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2008, 08:02:47 PM »

If you're still not clear on this, well, I don't really know what else to say.  Perhaps you should be a little more descriptive about what your exact question is.

Oh, it was just a joke.  You said "orchestral Western European piece" so I asked if a Russian/Eastern European piece would be fine.   Tongue
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« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2008, 09:48:34 PM »

Oh, it was just a joke.

In that case:  Smiley
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« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2008, 11:35:49 PM »

^ Um... Huh  Yeah, not really following you there.  Undecided 
I'll break it down for you. You said,
It doesn't matter WHAT the music was...
Meaning that the music can be Ethiopian, Russian, French, American, Martian, whatever, and it would be okay.

Then you in the very same sentence say this:
if it wasn't ETHIOPIAN then it was rather inappropriate for a video about ETHIOPIAN iconography...
Meaning that the music must be Ethiopian in order for it to have value. Which is it?

The music for this video about Ethiopian iconography doesn't even use Ethiopian music... so how authoritative can it really be?
[/quote]
So the criterion for whether a source is authoritative is not its accuracy or the author's background or the journalistic quality, but the origin of its soundtrack? Are you saying that I could write that Mexico was founded by aliens from the Horsehead Nebula and as long as I played salsa music, it must be authoritative? No, a video's accuracy should be independent of such a stylistic choice.
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« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2008, 11:44:32 PM »

So the criterion for whether a source is authoritative is not its accuracy or the author's background or the journalistic quality, but the origin of its soundtrack? Are you saying that I could write that Mexico was founded by aliens from the Horsehead Nebula and as long as I played salsa music, it must be authoritative? No, a video's accuracy should be independent of such a stylistic choice.

 Cheesy Lucky for me I wasn't taking a drink when I read about the aliens from the Horsehead Nebula and Salsa!  It would have been hard on my screen. 

And I second you on the accuracy of information.

Ebor
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« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2008, 04:54:49 AM »

So the criterion for whether a source is authoritative is not its accuracy or the author's background or the journalistic quality, but the origin of its soundtrack? Are you saying that I could write that Mexico was founded by aliens from the Horsehead Nebula and as long as I played salsa music, it must be authoritative?

^^LOL
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« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2008, 12:16:48 PM »

I remember that when the artifacts from the tomb of the first emperor of China toured, the colors chosen as backdrop were hues of purple, which in the West denotes royalty.  In China, it's yellow, but it was determined that that psychology would be lost on a Western viewing audience.
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« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2008, 08:10:23 PM »

ytterbiumanalyst,
I hope this is simply a grammatical misunderstanding… because if you’re just in the mood to argue I’d rather not waste my time.

A simple analogy:

Bob, what kind of ice cream do you want?
Chocolate.
Would you rather have vanilla?
No.
Would you rather have peach?
No.
Would you rather have mint?
No, it doesn’t matter WHAT you give me… if its not chocolate then I don’t want it.


If all Bob had said is “it doesn’t matter WHAT you give me” then you could easily interpret that to mean he has no preference.  But that’s not ALL he said, he clarified the exact meaning of those words by completing the thought with “if its not chocolate then I don’t want it.”

Now, take a second glance at my exact words:
It doesn't matter WHAT the music was…if it wasn't ETHIOPIAN then it was rather inappropriate for a video about ETHIOPIAN iconography...”

Are you making the connection here?


I'll break it down for you. You said…
Then you in the very same sentence say this…

Yeah, exactly: the SAME sentence… directly implying it is all one agreed and unified thought.  If there were any conflicting ideas I would have used the conjunction “but.” 


So the criterion for whether a source is authoritative is not its accuracy or the author's background or the journalistic quality, but the origin of its soundtrack?

Do you think CNN or the History Channel would do a piece on Native American dancing set to Jazz music?  Regardless of the source, wouldn’t this cause you to question the “accuracy or the author’s background or the journalistic quality”?


a video's accuracy should be independent of such a stylistic choice.

So is it a “stylistic choice” to use Jazz music for a documentary on Native American dancing?  No, at best it is obvious ignorance about history.  This situation is no different.  And having said that, I’m done with this thread.
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« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2008, 11:42:40 PM »

Again, I understand where Seraphim is coming from.  When there is a disconnect between an image and the music that goes with it, it can create an experience that is surreal, disconcerting and even nightmarish:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=rdI-lhwJyzI
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« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2008, 06:08:20 AM »

Perhaps the chap who put the video together didn't have any Ethiopian music.  Grin
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« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2008, 08:31:32 AM »

ytterbiumanalyst,
I hope this is simply a grammatical misunderstanding…
Ah. It appears that it was. Happens sometimes on the Internet, when you can't hear the inflection of the other speaker. I apologize.

Quote
Do you think CNN or the History Channel would do a piece on Native American dancing set to Jazz music?  Regardless of the source, wouldn’t this cause you to question the “accuracy or the author’s background or the journalistic quality”?
Actually, the source itself would cause me to question the author's background and its journalistic quality, and I wouldn't give it much thought after that.

Quote
So is it a “stylistic choice” to use Jazz music for a documentary on Native American dancing?  No, at best it is obvious ignorance about history.  This situation is no different.  And having said that, I’m done with this thread.
Okay, it appears we have a difference of opinion here that isn't going to be resolved. So we disagree, and I think I'll leave it at that.
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« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2008, 11:50:43 AM »

Please help me understand something.....

What is this thread actually about?
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« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2008, 12:19:12 PM »

Please help me understand something.....

What is this thread actually about?


This thread is a tangent split off from another:

St. Mary whipping boy Jesus?
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,15814.0.html

We could certainly use your feedback on that thread.  Please post there when you can.
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« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2008, 05:48:19 PM »

The Icon in the video is not a whipping scene as the caption claimed. The icon is also not of Ethiopian tradition in that it does not adequate speak the truth of the Gosple. I have never seen this Icon before.

Various other Icons shown in the clip are also not Ethiopian Icons or 'orthodox' at all. Some were only copies of pictures brought by western missionaries in Ethiopia. There is an effort in Ethiopia to rid the churches of second and third hand copies of the picturesque "christ" and "virgin mary" images dumped into Ethiopia by western missions and repalce them with true Holy Orthodox Icons which will correctly dispaly the true Gosple teaching and Ethiopian tradition. Ethiopians only used these non-orthodox 2nd and 3rd hand "pictures" since it is hard to get a full Icon made when money is very minimal and means to at lease copy the the real Icons and use them is also difficult do the remoteness of many churches and lack of resources  in general.

God bless Ethiopia!
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« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2008, 05:48:41 PM »

Perhaps the chap who put the video together didn't have any Ethiopian music.  Grin


Or perhaps he is extremely ignorant about Ethiopian Orthodox Christianity.
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« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2008, 05:49:45 PM »

The Icon in the video is not a whipping scene as the caption claimed… Various other Icons shown in the clip are also not Ethiopian Icons or 'orthodox' at all. Some were only copies of pictures brought by western missionaries in Ethiopia. There is an effort in Ethiopia to rid the churches of second and third hand copies of the picturesque "christ" and "virgin mary" images dumped into Ethiopia by western missions and repalce them with true Holy Orthodox Icons which will correctly dispaly the true Gosple teaching and Ethiopian tradition.

when I considered that the music used in this video is an orchestral Western European piece... I figured there wasn't any point worrying too much about ANY of the videos from that YouTube poster.
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« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2008, 05:50:15 PM »

the accuracy of information.


Definitely not much of that in this video.
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« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2008, 01:47:51 AM »


Or perhaps he is extremely ignorant about Ethiopian Orthodox Christianity.

Is he touting expertise in that area?
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« Reply #24 on: December 26, 2008, 11:15:24 PM »

So the criterion for whether a source is authoritative is not its accuracy or the author's background or the journalistic quality, but the origin of its soundtrack? Are you saying that I could write that Mexico was founded by aliens from the Horsehead Nebula and as long as I played salsa music, it must be authoritative? No, a video's accuracy should be independent of such a stylistic choice.

 Cheesy Lucky for me I wasn't taking a drink when I read about the aliens from the Horsehead Nebula and Salsa!  It would have been hard on my screen. 

And I second you on the accuracy of information.

Ebor

If it was accuracy he was aiming for, perhaps he meant some sort of indigenous music mixed with Spanish Roman Catholic music?  Salsa music is Caribbean; Cuban to be more specific.  Plus, it didn't come about until the middle of last century- a few years after the creation of Mexico.  Relax... I'm just teasin' y'all. Wink
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« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2009, 01:55:00 AM »

It is important to respect culture, especially when Ethiopia has been so assailed by various demonic forces (fascism, catholicism, communism, islam, etc..) throughout its history. I am a baptized western member of an EOTC Church where the liturgy is entirely in Ge'ez and the worship is in Amharic. I do not understand the language, but I do not desire for Ethiopia to accomadate my ignorance. I must respect the culture enough to appreciate and strive to learn what I can of the language. But, as with all Orthodox worship, the mystical aspect of the Gospel and the liturgy is understood by the help of the Holy Spirit- even when the language is foreign to us.

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