OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 14, 2014, 10:31:01 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Should laymen criticize bishops and patriarchs?  (Read 2509 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
EkhristosAnesti
'I will say of the Lord, "He is my refuge and my fortress; My God, in Him I will trust."' - Psalm 91:2
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Posts: 2,743


Pope St Kyrillos VI


« on: November 15, 2008, 08:55:11 AM »

[This topic was split off from a thread about Jerusalem:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,18061.0.html#lastPost

Salpy
moderator]



Is MinaSoliman misrepresenting, and assuming the moral and spiritual authority to judge the elected ones of God, AGAIN?









« Last Edit: November 22, 2008, 01:34:01 PM by Salpy » Logged

No longer an active member of this forum. Sincerest apologies to anyone who has taken offence to anything posted in youthful ignorance or negligence prior to my leaving this forum - October, 2012.

"Philosophy is the imitation by a man of what is better, according to what is possible" - St Severus
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2008, 09:58:58 AM »

Is MinaSoliman misrepresenting, and assuming the moral and spiritual authority to judge the elected ones of God, AGAIN?
Could you clarify what you mean by this please EA?
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 11,407


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2008, 10:54:09 AM »

Is MinaSoliman misrepresenting, and assuming the moral and spiritual authority to judge the elected ones of God, AGAIN?

Please, by all means, offer an alternative to my misrepresentation.

I've corrected myself in the other thread, although through correction, I still disagree with what the Synod has done.  Are you saying we don't have the authority to disagree?
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
EkhristosAnesti
'I will say of the Lord, "He is my refuge and my fortress; My God, in Him I will trust."' - Psalm 91:2
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Posts: 2,743


Pope St Kyrillos VI


« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2008, 10:17:50 PM »

Quote
An alternative to my misrepresentation

You mean….the truth?

You know what a wise bishop once told me Mina? "Those who think themselves wiser than they ought are easily exposed in their foolishness." I thought you would have learnt from no more or less than a couple of weeks ago that if you tend to find yourself so inclined to oppose the bishops (and this inclination of yours is the bigger problem here), and on a public forum at that, you should at the very least go well out of your way to make sure you have the basic facts right.

Quote
I've corrected myself in the other thread, although through correction, I still disagree with what the Synod has done. 


Mina, you seem to disagree with Bishops on here like a school kid disagrees with his teachers before his classmates.

Quote
Are you saying we don't have the authority to disagree?

No, you don’t have the authority to disagree with the Holy Synod. Do I really need to explain to you why a young layman should not be casting half-baked judgments against the unanimous decrees of experienced, wise, and holy Bishops who have been elected by God and nurtured by a lifetime of prayer and asceticism?

Do you really think you are in any position to criticise H.H. Pope Shenouda III? Look at him; observe his wrinkles which map out an 85 year old story of spiritual resilience, committed study, and ascetic strife, and then try and tell me, with a straight face, that this man of God has anything to learn from YOU….that instead of waking up at 4 a.m. every day to perform the midnight praise in preparation for another day of sacrificing himself for the sake of the souls of millions, he should be logging on to OC.net and taking notes from you…Please...

I’ve said all I wish to say here.
Logged

No longer an active member of this forum. Sincerest apologies to anyone who has taken offence to anything posted in youthful ignorance or negligence prior to my leaving this forum - October, 2012.

"Philosophy is the imitation by a man of what is better, according to what is possible" - St Severus
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 11,407


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2008, 12:00:41 AM »

EA,

I really don't know what to say.  I have a different idea of how the Synod works, and you probably know what that opinion is already.  You call me foolish and a little child, and you appeal to HH's age and experience, something Gandhi also had.

I think your argument speaks for itself.

I also have nothing else to say to your vain response.  You have not shown me how I'm foolish or childish, or given me the truth.  You've given me an answer only suitable in the political world.

God bless you.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2008, 12:01:04 AM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
EkhristosAnesti
'I will say of the Lord, "He is my refuge and my fortress; My God, in Him I will trust."' - Psalm 91:2
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Posts: 2,743


Pope St Kyrillos VI


« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2008, 04:05:41 AM »

Quote
I really don't know what to say.

For someone who doesn’t know what to say, you sure have a lot of nonsense to say.

Quote
I have a different idea of how the Synod works

Yes, I know that in Mina’s world Mina has an entire range of his own “different” ideas about how everything “works,” and that in this fantastic world, where Mina’s wisdom reigns supreme, it is only logical that the entire Church hierarchy should submit to Mina’s wisdom.

But I live in the real world, where the Wisdom of God is pronounced by the unanimous consent of God’s holy elect, in response to their heartfelt prayers and ascetic discipline, and not through the online ramblings of some young import who evidently doesn’t pay much attention in Divine Liturgy (see thread on Prayers for the Departed).

Quote
I think your argument speaks for itself.

I made an argument?

Quote
You have not shown me how I'm foolish or childish, or given me the truth.

Well given that you did such a good job of exposing yourself the last time after doing a “little research,” I thought I’d let you have the credit the second time round as well. You know me, humble ole EA.
Logged

No longer an active member of this forum. Sincerest apologies to anyone who has taken offence to anything posted in youthful ignorance or negligence prior to my leaving this forum - October, 2012.

"Philosophy is the imitation by a man of what is better, according to what is possible" - St Severus
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 11,407


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2008, 11:45:02 AM »

EA,

What wisdom is there in condemning Copts to go to Jerusalem?  What wisdom is there in saying when HH has actually publicly stated we would visit Jerusalem only hand-in-hand with our Muslim brothers, until the conflict there is over?

Tell me, please.  I want to know that I'm wrong.

HH Pope Shenouda, and I give you a link, condemned a woman of the same age with the same wrinkles for not listening to him.  "Oh Your Holiness, forgive me.  I am at the end of my age, and I just wanted a blessing." "NO!" he said, "If you were of old age, you would be wise enough to understand how to listen to your superiors.  But you still need discipline."

THAT disgusts me^^^^^  And I hope you understand my frustration on this point.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2008, 11:53:54 AM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
HaileAmanuel
HaileAmanuel [Amanuel is my Power]
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahido Christian
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahido/Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 87


He that is greatest among you will be your servant


« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2008, 10:44:58 PM »

My Brothers,

I think that both of you should be deriding me, because once upon a time, I was able to attend a private meeting with many Coptic bishops, priests and HH Pope Shenouda.  Previously, HH Pope Shenouda was so happy to see my wife and converse with her, until my foolish Ethiopian custom of bowing-low to honor HH made him angry enough to end this meeting! 

I believe that both of you have the same geneological mother, because your debate seems like you live in the same house or did previously.

Please take care and the love of Christ be with you both.  In the eyes of Jesus, we are all foolish and feeble, because we love sin more than righteousness. We know deep down that we should keep our spiritual composure, whether public or private, yet we lose all control and chose the wide road...

Please pray for me and for our salvation.

Sincerely,

haileamanuel
Logged

'He who is greatest among you, will be your servant [St. Matthew 23:11].'
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,284


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2009, 01:02:50 AM »

My Brothers,

I think that both of you should be deriding me, because once upon a time, I was able to attend a private meeting with many Coptic bishops, priests and HH Pope Shenouda.  Previously, HH Pope Shenouda was so happy to see my wife and converse with her, until my foolish Ethiopian custom of bowing-low to honor HH made him angry enough to end this meeting! 

I believe that both of you have the same geneological mother, because your debate seems like you live in the same house or did previously.

Please take care and the love of Christ be with you both.  In the eyes of Jesus, we are all foolish and feeble, because we love sin more than righteousness. We know deep down that we should keep our spiritual composure, whether public or private, yet we lose all control and chose the wide road...

Please pray for me and for our salvation.

Sincerely,

haileamanuel

Why did this man become angry at your bowing to him? I don't think that your/our Ethiopian custom - or any custom that symbolizes humility and respect - should be viewed as foolish. And, I certainly do not think that someone should become so angry that they break off fellowship with you because of this gesture. Perhaps he could have reproved you privately and asked you not to do this any more. But we should not forsake our customs as long as they are customs formulated out of a desire to be humble and show reverence to others. I do not mean to judge this man HH Shenouda at all, for who am I to do such a thing? But I just wanted to understand this further.

I am new to the EOTC, and I am a Western Protestant convert to the true Orthodox Faith. So, I am always fearful that I will unintentionally do something that may offend my brothers. There is a wide cultural gap that I am seeking to close by learning as much as I can about my new Church. But I fear being rebuked like you were in the incident you mentioned above. I think many people feel drawn to the Orthodox Faith, but they hesitate because of fear. They, like myself, are afraid that they will unintentionally violate some cultural custom or religious protocol and be publicly humiliated. I wish that we could do more to let people know that their errors made in sincerity will be gently corrected with love and charity.

This is why I ask so many questions, and why I am so grateful for my Ethiopian Orthodox brothers who post on this site. Thank you for teaching me and guiding me in my new Faith! Please continue to offer your words of insight and help to this new sheep in your fold.

Selam
Logged

"If we are unwilling to accept any truth that we have not first discovered and declared ourselves, we demonstrate that we are interested not in the truth so much as in being right." ~ Thomas Merton ~
VirSpeluncaeOrthodoxae
Da Orthodox Caveman! aka "Cavey"
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antioch...for now
Posts: 102



« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2009, 04:57:34 PM »

I'm answering the question in the subject itself: Yes absolutely. As the old saying goes, "Who guards the guards?" Bishops are sinners too, and last I checked we don't believe in infallible bishops. Respect the office, but Judas Iscariot and Nestorius were bishops too.
Logged

Medieval, backwards, rigid, narrow-minded Traditionalist, Western Rite lover and proud of it! Make my day.
alexp4uni
Site Supporter
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: kinda practicing theist
Jurisdiction: ecumenical kind
Posts: 329


« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2009, 05:23:55 PM »

I'm answering the question in the subject itself: Yes absolutely. As the old saying goes, "Who guards the guards?" Bishops are sinners too, and last I checked we don't believe in infallible bishops. Respect the office, but Judas Iscariot and Nestorius were bishops too.

Are their lingustic metaphors of the early church that imply that Judas was once a leader that had fallen (excommunicated)?  If so does this mean the church (assemblying body) at the time was  being formed at Jesus' life or did it already start prior to Pentecost as a mean to relegate men outside of their flock?
« Last Edit: February 13, 2009, 05:24:20 PM by alexp4uni » Logged
Veniamin
Fire for Effect!
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the South
Posts: 3,372


St. Barbara, patroness of the Field Artillery


« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2009, 07:40:47 PM »

Huh??
Logged

Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. ~Frederick the Great
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,070


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2009, 08:13:10 PM »

I'm answering the question in the subject itself: Yes absolutely. As the old saying goes, "Who guards the guards?" Bishops are sinners too, and last I checked we don't believe in infallible bishops. Respect the office, but Judas Iscariot and Nestorius were bishops too. 

Um, the Apostles, while performing actions which would be passed down to the Bishops, and acting as Bishops do, were not Bishops.  Judas was an Apostle - a greater thing, in our estimation. 

Are their lingustic metaphors of the early church that imply that Judas was once a leader that had fallen (excommunicated)?  If so does this mean the church (assemblying body) at the time was  being formed at Jesus' life or did it already start prior to Pentecost as a mean to relegate men outside of their flock?

The Church had always existed (from creation), existed at the time (through the 12, 70, and the multitude), and would exist in the future (after Christ ascended into heaven).
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
Basil 320
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,027



« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2009, 08:35:53 PM »

Certainly, criticism of the reverend clergy must be done w/the respect that their ordination and office call for, but I do not see anything wrong with respectfully criticising the clergy when we disagree with them, sometimes, when their actions may render them more like layman than clergy. 

I've openly disagreed with the GOAA's Eparchial Synod, in instances such as the Constitutional Charter they pushed on us, at the behest of the Patriarchate.  I also recall former Archbishop of America Spyridon, staring me down when I tried to introduce a motion to elevate the diocesan structure at the time, to the full canonical authority of a diocese, at the Orlando Clergy-Laity Congress.  And, I sincerely believe the information published by Orthodox Christians for Accountability was inspired work, that has returned the OCA's Central Administration to a proper course for the national church to be pursuing, rather than the fallen path it had been pursuing for way too many years.   Again, "speak the truth in love," as the patron saint of my parish wrote.
Logged

"...Strengthen the Orthodox Community..."
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2009, 07:04:37 AM »

Patriarchs and Bishops are easy targets, as has been seen on this forum.
It's like criticising the Royal Corgi's- you know they won't respond.
It takes no courage, no guts, no heroism despite what many of the critics claim.
And if you doubt this, try critiquing the critics and just watch how they react. All pretensions of Christian virtue fly out the window.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2009, 07:05:50 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2009, 12:57:51 PM »

Yes! if They Start watering down the ancient orthodox way changing it and not defending it,,,they should be criticized...even put out to pasture retired....the faithful have a say in it,, also the holy monks when our leaders [shepherds] fail us ....Christ tells us to be aware of wolves in sheep clothing....
Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
Tags: bishops 
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.082 seconds with 43 queries.