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Author Topic: Is Jesus God or is God Jesus?  (Read 2762 times) Average Rating: 0
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Irenaeus07
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« on: May 14, 2008, 07:11:41 PM »

I was sitting here pondering on this question. Most people would probably look at the question and say there is no difference, but from a certain prespective they are two different questions???

Can we say, Jesus is God, but God is not Jesus because God is the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit.

You see, Jesus is 100% God and 100% Man, but God is not 100% God and 100% Man.  While Jesus contains all the properties of God, God does not contain all the properties of Jesus.  Because God is beyond time and space, while there is a part of Jesus that is within time and space, and the same can be said about the Holy Spirit, meaning that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are both within time and space and outside of time and space at the same time.

So Jesus is God, but God is not Jesus.  God is part of Jesus.

Anyway, any thoughts???
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« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2008, 09:03:40 PM »

Can we say, Jesus is God, but God is not Jesus because God is the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Not really.
Our God as Christians is Our Lord Jesus Christ, so it is absolutely correct to say "Jesus Christ Our God". For some reason, this seems a difficult concept for many non-orthodox to accept, but it is the opening sentence of St. John's Gospel:

"In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God."(John 1:1)


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Irenaeus07
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« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2008, 10:06:34 PM »

Not really.
Our God as Christians is Our Lord Jesus Christ, so it is absolutely correct to say "Jesus Christ Our God". For some reason, this seems a difficult concept for many non-orthodox to accept, but it is the opening sentence of St. John's Gospel:

"In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God."(John 1:1)




I don't think you understood what I was saying.  Because John 1:1 supports Jesus is God, it does not support God is Jesus.  But it really goes back to what is the meaning of God.  In order to have a fruitful discussion, terms have to be defined.

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« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2008, 10:11:04 PM »

But it really goes back to what is the meaning of God.
God is "He that is worshiped". We worship Jesus Christ- He is our God.
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« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2008, 10:50:57 PM »

If you look at this diagram, the "is" and "is not" works both ways:
 
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« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2008, 11:02:11 PM »

Your point was clear, when you defined God.  I made question without really having a definition of God, so it was a baseless question.

God is "He that is worshiped". We worship Jesus Christ- He is our God.

I have a question:

God meaning, "He that is worshiped."

In the creed we say, "And in the Holy Spirit.......Who together with the Father and Son is worshipped..."

Where is the Holy Spirit worshipped, in the scripture??? 

We ask God the Father and God the Son for protection and direct our prayer mainly to these two, and many time refer to them inidividually, but I am not aware of the Holy Spirit ever being prayed to as an individual or as a person???  The Holy Spirit in the church is prayed to as Trinity???  Why is that???

Where does this part in the creed originate???
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« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2008, 11:45:20 PM »

... but I am not aware of the Holy Spirit ever being prayed to as an individual or as a person??? ...
The third sticheron at the Apostikha for the eve of Pentecost, and the opening prayer for every Orthodox service (other than the Divine Liturgy) from Pentecost to the next Pascha, is a prayer directly to the Holy Spirit:

O Heavenly King,
the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth:
You are everywhere filling all things;
Treasury of blessings
and Giver of life:
come and abide in us,
and cleanse us from every impurity,
and save our souls, O Good One!
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« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2008, 11:51:13 PM »

In partial reply to Reply #5,

Prayer to The Holy Spirit-

"Heavenly King and Comforter, Spirit of Truth, who are present everywhere and fillist all things, The Treasury of Blessings and Giver of Life, come and dwell within us, cleans us from every stain and save our souls,O Gracious One."

And, in partial reply to the question on this topic:

Jesus is God, "And in One Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father...of one essence with the Father..."  From: The Symbol of Faith
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« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2008, 12:08:30 AM »

Why is that???
Possibly because you don't listen attentively enough in Church! Wink
As Peter and Btrakas point out, the Trisagion Prayers which begin all public and most private Orthodox Prayer Services begins with a prayer addressed to the Holy Spirit.
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« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2008, 12:36:10 AM »

Where is the Holy Spirit worshipped, in the scripture???

"And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven." (Luke 12:10)


"Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Spirit hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation." (Mark 3:28)
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« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2008, 02:28:51 AM »

Dear Irenaeus,

You have to becareful with your thesis, its very close to nestorianism. You confusing natures with persons. There is only one hypostasis of Christ, which is the Logos who assumed humanity and made it his very own. In the fullness of time God the Son came down from Heaven and hypostatically united himself to His human nature in the child of Mary.

There is no increase in the divine nature, since the uniting with humanity has not altered or comingled nor confused the two natures which remain distinct, but inseperable in the One and same Christ.

Now as far as the Trinity, God the Father is the lone source and origin of both the Son and the Spirit . The Son being eternally begotten by the Father and the Holy Spirit eternally proceeding from the Father alone and is sent in time by Christ (but not always).

As Jude 20-21 reveals, "But you beloved building yourselves up on your most Holy Faith, Praying in the Holy Spirit, Keep yourselves in the Love of God, Looking for the Mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal Life."



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« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2008, 09:21:58 AM »

Does not also the passage from John 4:24 where Christ tells the Samaritan woman, "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship on spirit and truth," outline the basis of prayer to the Holy Spirit? (in reference to post #5).
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« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2008, 12:27:52 PM »

Not really.
Our God as Christians is Our Lord Jesus Christ, so it is absolutely correct to say "Jesus Christ Our God". For some reason, this seems a difficult concept for many non-orthodox to accept, but it is the opening sentence of St. John's Gospel:

"In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God."(John 1:1)

Is it proper to 'conflate' Jesus Christ with the Logos? As I understand it the Incarnation was not pre-existent. There was a 'when' Jesus of Nazareth wasn't but their wasn't a 'when' the Logos wasn't. Jesus can be affirmed to be God only in the sense that His 2nd Nature was the Logos. Much of what we know of Jesus is drawn from His non pre-existent Human Nature and although these two natures are in unity in Our Lord Jesus Christ I don't see how we can say that He Himself, as the Incarnate Lord, was pre-existent. What are your thoughts?
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« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2008, 12:39:59 AM »

I don't think you understood what I was saying.  Because John 1:1 supports Jesus is God, it does not support God is Jesus.  But it really goes back to what is the meaning of God.  In order to have a fruitful discussion, terms have to be defined.

That's a false dichotomy fallacy. If Jesus is God, then God is Jesus. It's two ways of saying the exact same thing. If A = B and B = C then A =C.
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« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2010, 05:46:44 AM »

Hello,
"The New Testament writers are really quite careful at this point. Jesus is not the God of Israel. He is not the Father. He is not Yahweh. An identification of Jesus with and as Yahweh was...labelled as 'Modalism,' a form of 'Monarchianism'.
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« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2010, 06:31:10 AM »

Hello,
"The New Testament writers are really quite careful at this point. Jesus is not the God of Israel. He is not the Father. He is not Yahweh. An identification of Jesus with and as Yahweh was...labelled as 'Modalism,' a form of 'Monarchianism'.

What do you mean when you say Jesus is not the God of Israel? Jesus is the God of the Gentiles only?  Huh

YHWH is not only the Father, but also the Son and the Holy Spirit. You cannot divide or separate the three distinct yet equal persons of the Trinity. How can Jesus be God if He is not related to the God of Israel in substance and nature?
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« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2010, 03:38:59 PM »

Hello,
"The New Testament writers are really quite careful at this point. Jesus is not the God of Israel. He is not the Father. He is not Yahweh. An identification of Jesus with and as Yahweh was...labelled as 'Modalism,' a form of 'Monarchianism'.
What religious tradition are you representing here?
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« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2010, 04:04:06 PM »

"When I say God, I mean Father, Son and Holy Spirit," St. Gregory the Theologian says, IIRC.

The Father is God. The Son is God. The Holy Spirit is God. Yet, they are not three Gods, but one God, not divided in essence, but separate in person. They are united in will and act together for the purpose of my salvation.

There are prayers to each Person of the Most Blessed Trinity, but these are not to the exclusion of the other two, and most end with a Trinitarian doxology.

Each Person, however, is fully God.  The Holy Trinity is one in essence, but three in person. God is undivided and simple in essence, and yet He is known in three Persons. He is eternal, and yet He became temporal (in that He entered history, albeit remaining eternal). He is Spirit, and yet He took flesh.

Do you see all the paradoxes and how God does not fit into any kind of box we construct? What we know of God is from His revelation, not our limited human conception.
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« Reply #18 on: July 26, 2010, 05:40:10 PM »

The Son is not all that God is but is Himself wholy God. It's pretty straightforward. Each Person is God, and God is fully in each Person. It's more quantic than cartesian. Smiley
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« Reply #19 on: July 26, 2010, 05:48:50 PM »

Most people would probably look at the question and say there is no difference, but from a certain prespective they are two different questions???

Not exactly. Because most people, when they say this, do not have the whole Trinity in mind. They only have in mind God the Logos. So if you rephrase it in that way, we can say that Jesus is the Logos and the Logos is Jesus.

Can we say, Jesus is God, but God is not Jesus because God is the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit.

There is some truth to that. You can consider that Jesus is divine, whereas the Trinity did not as a whole become Jesus. However, again, if you think of it in terms of "God the Logos", then it is entirely accurate to say Jesus is God the Logos and God the Logos is Jesus.

but God is not 100% God and 100% Man.

The Trinity as a whole is not divine and human, but the Logos particularly certainly is divine and human.

While Jesus contains all the properties of God, God does not contain all the properties of Jesus.

This is a little confusing. I would say that Jesus contains all the properties of the divine Logos and the divine Logos contains all the properties of Jesus. What are you trying to get at here?

Because God is beyond time and space, while there is a part of Jesus that is within time and space, and the same can be said about the Holy Spirit, meaning that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are both within time and space and outside of time and space at the same time.

You are saying that the Holy Spirit is confined in time and space in the same way as the Logos whereas the Father is not? That would be heterodoxy. The nature of the Holy Spirit remains simply divine in essentially the same way as the Father.
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« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2010, 05:55:07 PM »

Is it proper to 'conflate' Jesus Christ with the Logos?

In terms of selfhood and subsistence/hypostasis, yes.

As I understand it the Incarnation was not pre-existent.

The Incarnation is an event that affected a being, it did not create a being. The being of the Incarnation, the Logos, pre-existed the Incarnation.

There was a 'when' Jesus of Nazareth wasn't

Not if we identify Jesus of Nazareth as the Logos Incarnate. We could say that there was a time when Jesus was not human, but we cannot say that there was a time when He did not exist.

Jesus can be affirmed to be God only in the sense that His 2nd Nature was the Logos.

This sounds very Nestorian to me. Do you not know of the hypostatic union? The Logos is the foundational nature in Christ, and He is the hypostasis behind it. The humanity is enhypostatic, it only finds existence in the Logos.

I don't see how we can say that He Himself, as the Incarnate Lord, was pre-existent.

It is true that He as Incarnate was not pre-existent, because His Incarnation occurred in a specific point in time, however He Himself pre-existed His Incarnation.
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« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2010, 05:56:30 PM »

I don't think you understood what I was saying.  Because John 1:1 supports Jesus is God, it does not support God is Jesus.  But it really goes back to what is the meaning of God.  In order to have a fruitful discussion, terms have to be defined.

That's a false dichotomy fallacy. If Jesus is God, then God is Jesus. It's two ways of saying the exact same thing. If A = B and B = C then A =C.

It actually depends on what you mean by "God". If you mean "God the Logos", then it works. If by it you mean "Jesus is divine, therefore that which is divine is Jesus", this statement is actually subject to error because it could imply that the Trinity became Incarnate.
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« Reply #22 on: July 26, 2010, 05:57:55 PM »

Jesus is not the God of Israel.

Cite?

He is not the Father.

Of course not.

He is not Yahweh. An identification of Jesus with and as Yahweh was...labelled as 'Modalism,' a form of 'Monarchianism'.

"Before Abraham was, I AM." - Jesus Christ
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« Reply #23 on: July 26, 2010, 06:14:56 PM »

In our iconography, when there is an event depicted with God doing something in the Old Testament, the iconographic depiction is the same as of Jesus Christ.
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