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Author Topic: Considering Orthodoxy  (Read 15554 times) Average Rating: 0
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Mickey
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« Reply #45 on: May 15, 2008, 10:48:41 AM »

Mickey, first, I respectfully disagree with the good Cardinal on this matter.
Yes. I know that you do. There are many Roman Catholics who disagree with that statement.
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« Reply #46 on: May 15, 2008, 10:52:00 AM »

Mickey, I must respectfully point out that when Cardinal Ratzinger wrote that, he was not the Pope and I disagree with him on this matter.

Does that mean you agree that the papacy now is not as it was lived in the first millenium?


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« Reply #47 on: May 15, 2008, 11:14:17 AM »

Does that mean you agree that the papacy now is not as it was lived in the first millenium?



It depends on what you mean. The early Church certainly had a sense of the authority of Rome over all the Churches and also a sense that everyone must agree with Rome on doctrinal matters. Even Irnaeus states that everyone must be in agreement with Rome because of its superior origin, having been taught by the most blessed Apostles Peter and Paul. Did the early Church specicifcally use the terms "Universal Jurisdiction" and "Infallibility"? Of course not. But the first centuries did not see terms like "hypostatic union" or "consubstantial" either. The idea was there, even if it was debated at times, but it was there.
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« Reply #48 on: May 15, 2008, 11:19:43 AM »

Even Irnaeus states that everyone must be in agreement with Rome because of its superior origin, having been taught by the most blessed Apostles Peter and Paul.
That quote does not say what you think it is saying, my friend. Holy Orthodoxy does not deny that the ancient Church of Rome was Apostolic and Orthodox. No one questions that it was a model of orthodoxy.
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« Reply #49 on: May 15, 2008, 11:43:44 AM »

@buzuxi:

You make an excellent point, because if the Primacy was held by Rome was because of it's "spiritual rank" Jerusalem would no doubt be first as it is the Holy Land. However Jerusalem was 5th because it was the least important politically. However I have to disagree with you in that Pope St. Damasus I made up the innovation of St. Peter and Paul's martyrdom being important, it no doubt was. Is not Pope St. Damasus I an Orthodox saint as well?

@Αριστοκλής:

Yes, I do need to actively participate in conversations to gain anything.

@Heracleides:

Yes, however we can believe that the Roman Church was originally Orthodox.

@Papist:

I find no proof for this Universal Jurisdiction anymore. Even when I was leaning towards Catholicism I could not find any examples of Papal Infallibility as being a doctrine. It is illogical and contradicts the Holy Tradition of the Church. Universal Jurisdiction is harder to disprove, however Rome often used the extent it could to it's Primacy, in that it would clear up doctrinal issues, call councils, and excommunicate heretics. However they never seemed to have any actual Jurisdiction over the other Patriarchates other than what was given to them out of kindness. 



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« Reply #50 on: May 15, 2008, 12:17:01 PM »

That quote does not say what you think it is saying, my friend. Holy Orthodoxy does not deny that the ancient Church of Rome was Apostolic and Orthodox. No one questions that it was a model of orthodoxy.

It says excatly what I think it is saying. I have seen people go to great lenght to get around the quote but the fact is that it says that everyone must agree with Rome simply becuase of its superior origin. Rome is always right because of where it came from.
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« Reply #51 on: May 15, 2008, 12:53:27 PM »

It says excatly what I think it is saying. I have seen people go to great lenght to get around the quote but the fact is that it says that everyone must agree with Rome simply becuase of its superior origin. Rome is always right because of where it came from.

It is this type of reasoning that originally made me start questioning Catholicism and considering Orthodoxy. With this mindset Rome can do whatever it wants because it was the Capital of the Roman Empire before the time of St. Constantine. So Rome is allowed to teach heresy like the Filioque because it is Rome? Furthermore, the quote says that we must agree with Rome on everything. I'm not going to deny this, however if Rome, loses the faith should we still stay with it. What about the heretical Novus Ordo, should we continue to follow Rome, because of that?

---------------------------------

Furthermore, I see no proof for Universal Jurisdiction (I'm looking, I really am I said I was considering both Catholicism and Orthodoxy) however there is really no proof of the Roman Patriarchate enforcing it's power on the other Patriarchates, and them listening, or it being nothing more than friendly advice. In fact Pope St. Gregory I condemned any Bishop who said that he was the Bishop over the entire Church. St. Ignatius of Antioch teaches us that each and every Bishop is a member of the Church, however the whole Church must speak Infallibly not just one person. When Rome separated itself from the Orthodox Church it was because it did not want to take the opinion of the Holy Ghost working through the other Patriarchates. The Second Vatican Council is a prime example of an abuse of power.
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« Reply #52 on: May 15, 2008, 01:18:53 PM »

It is this type of reasoning that originally made me start questioning Catholicism and considering Orthodoxy.
Yes. The triumphalism is a turn off.
however there is really no proof of the Roman Patriarchate enforcing it's power on the other Patriarchates
My brother in Christ, you will not find this proof because it does not exist.
The Second Vatican Council is a prime example of an abuse of power.
Have you studied the first Vatican Council? The ultramontanists had been pushing for a doctrine of papal supremacy/infallibility for a long time but it had been shot down by the Latin "councils" of Constance and Basel. Ultimately they found their accomplice in the person of Pope Pius IX.
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« Reply #53 on: May 15, 2008, 01:28:36 PM »

Yes. The triumphalism is a turn off.

It is not so much that, but after reading Timothy Ware's works, it just makes sense that the whole Church is an organism and thus the entire Church should have a say in Infallibility. Did the Roman Church even ask the Eastern Churches about the Filioque. No, Pope Leo IX just assumed that he could do anything that he wanted. All the Apostles received the Holy Ghost, and thus they all should have an equal say in things. I agree that St. Peter had a special leadership over the other Apostles, however he was still equal to them.

My brother in Christ, you will not find this proof because it does not exist.

I have searched and found nothing. If the Holy Ghost wants me in Catholicism He will show me, however He has only been showing Orthodoxy to me lately.

Have you studied the first Vatican Council? The ultramontanists had been pushing for a doctrine of papal supremacy/infallibility for a long time but it had been shot down by the Latin "councils" of Constance and Basel. Ultimately they found their accomplice in the person of Pope Pius IX.

Yes I know that. This is considered the end of the "Concilar Movement". It is ironic because had it not been for the doctrine of Papal Infallibility I would probably be leaning towards Catholicism more, however I cannot see any proof for this, nor should I want to follow a Church that teaches a false doctrine.

However we must look at the time that the First Vatican Council was in. This was during Italian Unification, and the Papacy was fearing for it's power that it might lose some. This is why the Papacy was always a strong opponent of Italian Unification.
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« Reply #54 on: May 15, 2008, 01:38:03 PM »

Now now. Grin

Seriously, have you even read the Eastern Catholic forum over there?  In the dictionary besides ridiculous a link to it is printed.
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« Reply #55 on: May 15, 2008, 01:40:10 PM »

Ok forget CAF what about my problems?  laugh
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« Reply #56 on: May 15, 2008, 01:41:21 PM »

It is not so much that, but after reading Timothy Ware's works, i

Please refrain from using Metropolitan  Kallistos' non-church name, it is disrespectful to enter into an Orthodox forum and call our beloved and God loved Bishops by their first names or by their non-church names.  In the future please write out the Bishop's proper title and his church name. 
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« Reply #57 on: May 15, 2008, 01:45:28 PM »

Please refrain from using Metropolitan  Kallistos' non-church name, it is disrespectful to enter into an Orthodox forum and call our beloved and God loved Bishops by their first names or by their non-church names.  In the future please write out the Bishop's proper title and his church name. 
Let us go easy on him--he is new to Holy Orthodoxy.  Smiley
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« Reply #58 on: May 15, 2008, 01:46:09 PM »

Ok forget CAF what about my problems?  laugh
What other difficulties are you experiencing?
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« Reply #59 on: May 15, 2008, 01:55:32 PM »

Make that 1000 years^
oops. I left out a zero.
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« Reply #60 on: May 15, 2008, 03:12:47 PM »

.
Holdencaulfield - You quote two Popes of Rome, Innocent I & Leo I, both of whom write in support of the(ir) Papacy.... do you see the irony of this - using Popes to support the Papacy?  Sort of like quoting US Presidents writing in support of, brace yourself, the Presidency.
.

@Heracleides:

Yes, however we can believe that the Roman Church was originally Orthodox.

Bingo.
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« Reply #61 on: May 15, 2008, 04:09:26 PM »

It is this type of reasoning that originally made me start questioning Catholicism and considering Orthodoxy. With this mindset Rome can do whatever it wants because it was the Capital of the Roman Empire before the time of St. Constantine. So Rome is allowed to teach heresy like the Filioque because it is Rome? Furthermore, the quote says that we must agree with Rome on everything. I'm not going to deny this, however if Rome, loses the faith should we still stay with it. What about the heretical Novus Ordo, should we continue to follow Rome, because of that?

---------------------------------

Furthermore, I see no proof for Universal Jurisdiction (I'm looking, I really am I said I was considering both Catholicism and Orthodoxy) however there is really no proof of the Roman Patriarchate enforcing it's power on the other Patriarchates, and them listening, or it being nothing more than friendly advice. In fact Pope St. Gregory I condemned any Bishop who said that he was the Bishop over the entire Church. St. Ignatius of Antioch teaches us that each and every Bishop is a member of the Church, however the whole Church must speak Infallibly not just one person. When Rome separated itself from the Orthodox Church it was because it did not want to take the opinion of the Holy Ghost working through the other Patriarchates. The Second Vatican Council is a prime example of an abuse of power.
The quote from Iraneaus says that everyone must agree with Rome, not because of its status as the Capital of Rome, but because of is superior origin, in Sts. Peter and Paul.
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« Reply #62 on: May 15, 2008, 05:28:27 PM »

What other difficulties are you experiencing?

Quotes like that one from St. Iraneous about not leaving the Roman Church, however I believe that he would not want us to follow the Roman Church into heresy.
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« Reply #63 on: May 15, 2008, 05:33:00 PM »

The quote from Iraneaus says that everyone must agree with Rome, not because of its status as the Capital of Rome, but because of is superior origin, in Sts. Peter and Paul.

And like I said, with that reasoning Jerusalem would hold the Primacy. Wouldn't the place where Christ taught because of His superior teachings hold the Primacy. Yes, St. Peter and Paul being in Rome, has something to do with this, however the main reason was because it was the Capital of the Empire. So should we follow the Roman Church in heresy? Should we follow it when it left the Pentarchy. Without a doubt Rome was terrible orthodox until around the 9th and 10th centuries, this is also why it held the Primacy.

Besides St. Iraneaus was under the Roman Patriarchate, and would thus tell people to listen to his Church.
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« Reply #64 on: May 15, 2008, 05:37:13 PM »

@buzuxi:

You make an excellent point, because if the Primacy was held by Rome was because of it's "spiritual rank" Jerusalem would no doubt be first as it is the Holy Land. However Jerusalem was 5th because it was the least important politically. However I have to disagree with you in that Pope St. Damasus I made up the innovation of St. Peter and Paul's martyrdom being important, it no doubt was. Is not Pope St. Damasus I an Orthodox saint as well?

@Αριστοκλής:

Yes, I do need to actively participate in conversations to gain anything.

@Heracleides:

Yes, however we can believe that the Roman Church was originally Orthodox.

@Papist:

I find no proof for this Universal Jurisdiction anymore. Even when I was leaning towards Catholicism I could not find any examples of Papal Infallibility as being a doctrine. It is illogical and contradicts the Holy Tradition of the Church. Universal Jurisdiction is harder to disprove, however Rome often used the extent it could to it's Primacy, in that it would clear up doctrinal issues, call councils, and excommunicate heretics. However they never seemed to have any actual Jurisdiction over the other Patriarchates other than what was given to them out of kindness. 





Dear Holden, Pope Damasus was the first one to use the title 'Apostolic See' for itself, in 382. Right after the Ecumenical Council of Constantinople 381 in canon 3 changed the rankings of Nicea and elevated Constantinople to the second place. This is because Constantinopple was not known to have been found by an apostle. Pope Damasus is also the one that invented the petrine theory that only those patriarchates found by Peter or his disciple (MARK) can be patriarchates. Once again his theory was proven false when Jerusalem was raised to the patriarchate.

It is IMPOSSIBLE for St Ireneous to be saying that all must agree with Rome because of its superiority, since Ireneous himself sided with Polycrates of Ephesus instead of the pope in the dispute over the date of Pascha. Pope Victor ATTEMPTED to excommunicate Polycrates, along with the Asis Minor churches for celbrating Pascha on the passover.  But Ireneous wrote an epistle to Victor admonishing him, that the Asia Minor church follow an equally ancient tradition of the apostle John. Thus Polycrates did not have to agree with Pope Victor, neither did Ireneous. As we can see from this episode of church history , Ireneous did not mean what the latins try to convince us of thru there false translation.
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« Reply #65 on: May 15, 2008, 05:45:48 PM »

Also, should we not look at the context of what St. Irenaeus was writing in? He was writing to heretics, basically denied Apostolic Succession. Lets look at some other quotes, shall we?

Here is his introduction, note that he says all Churches have power:

Quote
"It is within the power of all, therefore, in every Church, who may wish to see the truth, to contemplate clearly the tradition of the apostles manifested throughout the whole world; and we are in a position to reckon up those who were by the apostles instituted bishops in the Churches, and [to demonstrate] the succession of these men to our own times; those who neither taught nor knew of anything like what these [heretics] rave about." (Against Heresies 3:3:1)

Here we should note that St. Irenaeus says that the Bishop of Rome can teach heresy and fall, and that we should not follow him in error:

Quote
"For they were desirous that these men should be very perfect and blameless in all things, whom also they were leaving behind as their successors, delivering up their own place of government to these men; which men, if they discharged their functions honestly, would be a great boon [to the Church], but if they should fall away, the direst calamity." (Against Heresies 3:3:1)

And finally St. Irenaeus shows us that the Church in Ephesus is also The Church:

Quote
"Then, again, the Church in Ephesus, founded by Paul, and having John remaining among them permanently until the times of Trajan, is a true witness of the tradition of the apostles." (Against Heresies 3:3:4)

---------------------------------------------------

If you understood the Primacy of Honor you would understand why the Roman Church held such a powerful position, however not what it is today. No Church can be opposed to its Head (Rome), however when the Head becomes opposed to the Body it fails to be the Head anymore.

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« Reply #66 on: May 15, 2008, 05:48:29 PM »

@buzuxi:

Good point, if you could find the Letter of St. Irenaeus that condemns Pope Victor, we could win this point about the other Letter we were talking about. I must ask though, do you not consider Pope Damasus still a saint? Even though he was a bit egotistical?
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« Reply #67 on: May 15, 2008, 05:53:20 PM »

So should we follow the Roman Church in heresy?

You certainly should not follow Rome into heresy. (I follow Rome because I believe she isn't in heresy.)
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« Reply #68 on: May 15, 2008, 05:55:49 PM »

You certainly should not follow Rome into heresy. (I follow Rome because I believe she isn't in heresy.)

I used to believe that she wasn't as well. But then:

  • Papal Infallibility
  • Universal Jurisdiction
  • The Filioque
  • The Second Vatican Council
  • The Novus Ordo
  • ect.

I guess I never really looked at history before. However after looking at history I want to be in the Original Catholic Church, not the one that is in schism.
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« Reply #69 on: May 15, 2008, 06:03:22 PM »

oops. I left out a zero.

You didn't use any zeros.  Wink
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« Reply #70 on: May 15, 2008, 06:08:23 PM »

Im not arguing that he is not a saint, likewise with Pope St Leo, who said things concerning the papacy which were preposterous, blowing lots of hot air and whining when his See never got its way.  But a saint means he died in the Grace of God not that he was infallible. Even St Gregory of Nyssa is condemned for beleiving in a kind of Origenistic restoration of all things doctrine.

I also disagree with the opinion that Rome was some sort of haven of doctrinal purity. I simply do not find it in the reading of the Fathers or Church History.   St Hippolytus a doctor of the western church, set himself up as the first anti-pope to counter the heresies of Pope Calixtus and Pope Zrphrynus. St Huppolytus writings are some of the harshest ive ever seen against those holding the papacy. Then there was Pope Vigilius who was condemned at the 5th Ecumenical council and name dropped from the diptychs after reciting an encyclical which in modern roman standards would be considered an ex cathedra statement, he repented a few months later saying the devil lead him astray.  Of course there was the heretic Pope Honorius condemned as such at an ecumenical council. Then by the 8th century the entire papacy began to crumble into heresy.

This episode involving Ireneaous along with the Paschal dispute can be found in Eusebius Ecclesiastical history book 5 ch 24-25
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« Reply #71 on: May 15, 2008, 06:22:05 PM »

Im not arguing that he is not a saint, likewise with Pope St Leo, who said things concerning the papacy which were preposterous, blowing lots of hot air and whining when his See never got its way.  But a saint means he died in the Grace of God not that he was infallible. Even St Gregory of Nyssa is condemned for beleiving in a kind of Origenistic restoration of all things doctrine.

I also disagree with the opinion that Rome was some sort of haven of doctrinal purity. I simply do not find it in the reading of the Fathers or Church History.   St Hippolytus a doctor of the western church, set himself up as the first anti-pope to counter the heresies of Pope Calixtus and Pope Zrphrynus. St Huppolytus writings are some of the harshest ive ever seen against those holding the papacy. Then there was Pope Vigilius who was condemned at the 5th Ecumenical council and name dropped from the diptychs after reciting an encyclical which in modern roman standards would be considered an ex cathedra statement, he repented a few months later saying the devil lead him astray.  Of course there was the heretic Pope Honorius condemned as such at an ecumenical council. Then by the 8th century the entire papacy began to crumble into heresy.

This episode involving Ireneaous along with the Paschal dispute can be found in Eusebius Ecclesiastical history book 5 ch 24-25

Sorry, I'm not seeing the thing with St. Ireneaus, could you link me to it? What did Pope Vigilius do that was heretical. Could you also show me the writings of St. Hippolytus that were against the Papacy. They would be interesting as he is a saint in both the Catholic and the Orthodox Church
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« Reply #72 on: May 15, 2008, 06:46:38 PM »

Pope Vigilius presented a writing called the 'Constutum' which was condemned by the 5th Ecumenical Council, This papal writing ended with this strongly worded papal warning:

"We decree and ordain that it be permitted by no one belonging to any eccelsiatical order or office to write or bring forward or compose or teach anything contrary to this Constituum in regard to the Three Chapters, or after this present definition to move any further question. And if anything has been done said or written by anyone ,anywhere about the Three Chapters  contrary to what we here assert and decree... this in all ways we refute by the Authority of the Apotolic See by which by the Grace of God we preside."
This document also contained 61 anathames against anyone who contradicts it.

The Council drew up its own anathemas, which Pope Vigilius fell under, and his name was dropped from the diptychs, "On account of the impiety which he defended". Six months later Pope Vigilius rescinded the first Constituum and wrote a second one  anathemizing the Three Chapters, saying the devil lead him astray.

You can google up Pope Victor and Polycrates with Ireneous involvement. It comes fron Eusebius ecclesiatical history 324a.d.

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« Reply #73 on: May 15, 2008, 06:50:38 PM »

Even Irnaeus states that everyone must be in agreement with Rome because of its superior origin, having been taught by the most blessed Apostles Peter and Paul.

He also says a paragraph later that due to its apostolic origin, Ephesus is a true teacher of the apostolic message. For some reason, some what to believe what Irenaeus said about one city forever, but not others.


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« Reply #74 on: May 15, 2008, 06:53:37 PM »

The quote from Iraneaus says that everyone must agree with Rome, not because of its status as the Capital of Rome, but because of is superior origin, in Sts. Peter and Paul.

I thought it said "assemble at," not "agree with."  Huh
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« Reply #75 on: May 15, 2008, 06:57:41 PM »

Pope Vigilius presented a writing called the 'Constutum' which was condemned by the 5th Ecumenical Council, This papal writing ended with this strongly worded papal warning:

"We decree and ordain that it be permitted by no one belonging to any eccelsiatical order or office to write or bring forward or compose or teach anything contrary to this Constituum in regard to the Three Chapters, or after this present definition to move any further question. And if anything has been done said or written by anyone ,anywhere about the Three Chapters  contrary to what we here assert and decree... this in all ways we refute by the Authority of the Apotolic See by which by the Grace of God we preside."
This document also contained 61 anathames against anyone who contradicts it.

The Council drew up its own anathemas, which Pope Vigilius fell under, and his name was dropped from the diptychs, "On account of the impiety which he defended". Six months later Pope Vigilius rescinded the first Constituum and wrote a second one  anathemizing the Three Chapters, saying the devil lead him astray.

You can google up Pope Victor and Polycrates with Ireneous involvement. It comes fron Eusebius ecclesiatical history 324a.d.



That's very interesting. I guess that pretty much proves the whole Supremacy of the Pope thing wrong right there.
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« Reply #76 on: May 15, 2008, 06:58:00 PM »

I thought it said "assemble at," not "agree with."  Huh

The roman apologists tend to translate it as "must agree",   'assemble at' is correct. All roads lead to Rome it was the hub of business and commerce and transportation hence many came to (assembled at) Rome and deposited the Apostolic Tradition of their churches there.
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« Reply #77 on: May 15, 2008, 07:00:53 PM »

Could someone post me the documents where St. Hippolytus condemns the modern concept of the Papacy. We already have a good list of saints against the Papacy, thanks guys this is really helping me discern between Orthodoxy and Catholicism. My list

  • Pope St. Gregory I
  • St. Irenaeus
  • St. Hippolytus

Lets make this list longer.  Cheesy
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« Reply #78 on: May 15, 2008, 07:02:33 PM »

The roman apologists tend to translate it as "must agree",   'assemble at' is correct. All roads lead to Rome it was the hub of business and commerce and transportation hence many came to (assembled at) Rome and deposited the Apostolic Tradition of their churches there.

Regardless, we have already proved this wrong as not even St. Irenaeus believed this himself and condemned Pope Victor. Could you post some info on this as well?
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« Reply #79 on: May 15, 2008, 07:04:42 PM »

Could someone post me the documents where St. Hippolytus condemns the modern concept of the Papacy. We already have a good list of saints against the Papacy, thanks guys this is really helping me discern between Orthodoxy and Catholicism. My list

  • Pope St. Gregory I
  • St. Irenaeus
  • St. Hippolytus

Lets make this list longer.  Cheesy

If you want an overview from an Orthodox point of view, buy "Two Paths" by Michael Whelton

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« Reply #80 on: May 15, 2008, 07:06:36 PM »

If you want an overview from an Orthodox point of view, buy "Two Paths" by Michael Whelton



I just wanted to create a small list here, with quotes from them, ect.
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« Reply #81 on: May 15, 2008, 07:06:51 PM »

Here is a link from the Christian Library that has ties with the University of Lousiville. You can scroll past the first 2 or 3 paragraphs since it doesnt pertain to what we are discussing:
http://elvis.rowan.edu/~kilroy/christia/library/irenaeus.html
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« Reply #82 on: May 15, 2008, 07:14:04 PM »

@buzuxi:

Good post.
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« Reply #83 on: May 15, 2008, 07:15:58 PM »

Someone want to post something from St. Hippolytus condemning the Papacy?
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« Reply #84 on: May 15, 2008, 07:24:27 PM »

Hippolytus wrote against 2 popes Callistus and Zephrynos whom he deemed heretics.  Here is his wiriting, and yes his harsh words are against them, which proves Hippolytus knew of no papal supremacy or infallibility:

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf05.iii.iii.vii.vii.html
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« Reply #85 on: May 15, 2008, 07:34:51 PM »

Thanks.
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« Reply #86 on: May 15, 2008, 07:46:14 PM »

@buzuxi:

Sorry, I can see that I am being annoying, however I always cross reference any work on the Fathers, because often there are different translations, could you just give me the name of the book they are in, ect. I usually read the Fathers off of New Advent, because it has the most complete lists of Fathers. If you know another website that would be great, however could you give me those. I work well with quotes of the Fathers. If I am to prove Orthodoxy correct, I am going to have to start disproving the Papal Claims, as I already know the Filioque is bunch of lies.
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« Reply #87 on: May 15, 2008, 07:50:32 PM »

Hippolytus, Refutation of all heresies Book IX- Conduct of Callistus and Zephrynus
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« Reply #88 on: May 15, 2008, 07:58:11 PM »

Well, here is another example of a saint of the Catholic Church claiming that the Popes can and have been heretics, and challenges the modern Roman Catholic conception of the Papacy.

St. Hippolytus

"The school of these heretics during the succession of such bishops, continued to acquire strength and augmentation, from the fact that Zephyrinus and Callistus helped them to prevail.  Never at any time, however, have we been guilty of collusion with them; but we have frequently offered them opposition,  and have refuted them, and have forced them reluctantly to acknowledge the truth. And they, abashed and constrained by the truth, have confessed their errors for a short period, but after a little, wallow once again in the same mire." (Refutation of all Heresies 9:2)
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« Reply #89 on: May 16, 2008, 08:42:36 AM »

I usually read the Fathers off of New Advent, because it has the most complete lists of Fathers.
Words of warning. Be very weary of the website "New Advent". I have come across many instances of error and gross bias.
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