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Author Topic: Considering Orthodoxy  (Read 14924 times) Average Rating: 0
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holdencaulfield
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« on: May 12, 2008, 10:42:04 PM »

I would like to hear some Orthodox points of view on issues like the:

  • The Papacy
  • The Filioque
  • The Immaculate Conception
  • Purgatory

Thanks.
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« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2008, 10:49:44 PM »

HC,

1st off, welcome to the forum!  I hope your time here is enjoyable as well as educational.  To answer your query(sp?), try typing those topics into the forum's search engine.  Also, you might wish to read The Orthodox Church by His Grace Bishop Kallistos (Timothy) Ware.  In fact, I highly recommend it.

In Christ,

Gabriel
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« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2008, 10:49:55 PM »

See the search bar at the top? Type each of these terms in and come up with a wealth of info on other threads.

God bless.
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« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2008, 10:55:48 PM »

HC,

1st off, welcome to the forum!  I hope your time here is enjoyable as well as educational.  To answer your query(sp?), try typing those topics into the forum's search engine.  Also, you might wish to read The Orthodox Church by His Grace Bishop Kallistos (Timothy) Ware.  In fact, I highly recommend it.

In Christ,

Gabriel

I have already started reading it. I am on around page 96, however I still seem to be able to find proof for the Papacy and the Filioque.
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« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2008, 11:17:44 PM »

I have already started reading it. I am on around page 96, however I still seem to be able to find proof for the Papacy and the Filioque.

What may I humbly ask are these proofs?
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« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2008, 12:48:53 AM »

I would like to hear some Orthodox points of view on issues like the:

  • The Papacy
  • The Filioque
  • The Immaculate Conception
  • Purgatory

Thanks.

If you'd like to see what we've been discussing on each of those points, I would suggest you use the forum's search engine - each of those topics has been discussed ad nauseam multiple times here.  I'm sure you'll find the banter to be stimulating!
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« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2008, 01:56:38 PM »

The Filioque

I have been told by many Orthodox that the Filioque is wrong because the Holy Ghost temporally Proceeds from the Son, however always from the Father. I have been told that the wording for the Filioque is indeed incorrect, because the Fathers and the Council of Constantinople would have added the "and the Son" if the phrase was necessary. I have been told that when the Fathers refer to the Son as the source of the Holy Ghost, they mean it in a temporary sense. They have also used John 15:26 as support against the Filioque. But does the Son not have everything that the Father has, without being the Father? Here is a Church Father that seems to take my stance.

Quote
St. Maximus the Confessor - 254 AD

"By nature the Holy Spirit in his being takes substantially his origin from the Father through the Son who is begotten" (Questions to Thalassium 63)
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« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2008, 02:03:16 PM »

Papal Doctrines

Quote
St. Irenaeus - 189 AD

"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (Against Heresies 3:3:2)

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« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2008, 02:29:35 PM »

Papal Doctrines
Quote
St. Irenaeus - 189 AD

"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (Against Heresies 3:3:2)



Now, one has to read and understand this in connection to the context in which it was written:

http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article9560.asp

"...Early Christian teachers like St. Irenaeus (+202AD), the martyred bishop of the city of Lugdunum in what was then the Roman province of Gaul but is today Lyons in France, wrote a series of books called Against Heresies, refuting the teachings of various Gnostic teachers...."

At least this is what I came across.

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« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2008, 02:50:39 PM »

The Filioque

I have been told by many Orthodox that the Filioque is wrong because the Holy Ghost temporally Proceeds from the Son, however always from the Father. I have been told that the wording for the Filioque is indeed incorrect, because the Fathers and the Council of Constantinople would have added the "and the Son" if the phrase was necessary. I have been told that when the Fathers refer to the Son as the source of the Holy Ghost, they mean it in a temporary sense. They have also used John 15:26 as support against the Filioque. But does the Son not have everything that the Father has, without being the Father? Here is a Church Father that seems to take my stance.

St Maximos actually affirms the procession here minus the filioque and also when he states, "For the Lord Jesus is mediator between God and men, as the divine apostle says (cf. 1 Tim. 2:5), since He makes the unknown Father manifest to men through the flesh, and gives those who have been reconciled to Him access to the Father through the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 2:18)." On the Lord's Prayer, Philokalia vol. 2. God bless.
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« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2008, 05:31:10 PM »

Well from what I can see, the Filioque is iffy at best, but the quote from St. Irenaus seems to allude to the Papacy.
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« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2008, 06:25:44 PM »

My previous 4 posts to this one were answers to questions about Patristic quotes concerning the Papacy in another thread, and the last one was posted less than an hour ago!
Please use the search and tag facilities before starting new threads.

Here are the tagged threads marked "Filioque":
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?action=tags;id=347

Here are the tagged threads marked "Pope":
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?action=tags;id=56

Here are the tagged threads marked "Immaculate Conception":
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?action=tags;id=1286

Here are the tagged threads marked "Purgatory":
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?action=tags;id=1642
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« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2008, 06:53:43 PM »

Hello,

I believe that the Pope was the leader of Christianity, and that the Pope had Universal Jurisdiction, however Papal Infallibility seems a bit iffy to me. Am I closer to Catholic or Orthodox. I feel like I am somewhere in between.
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« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2008, 08:14:38 PM »

Here are things that I see that are good and bad about Catholicism and Orthodoxy.

Catholicism +

- It seems to me that the Bishop of Rome always had Universal Jurisdiction. I have been unable to find proof otherwise.
- Many of the Early Church Fathers stressed the necessity of staying with the Church of Rome, and to not schism from it (Both East and Western Fathers)
- Many Early Church Fathers agreed that St. Peter was the "Rock"
- Most Church Fathers agreed with the Western Understanding of the Original Sin
- The Church has a Visible Leader
- The Church has had a wealth of saints post-1054 and also many apparitions for Christ and the Theotokos.

Catholicism -

- Papal Infallibility seems to contradict the Holy Tradition, and seems wrong that one person can speak for the entire Church
- The Second Vatican Council seems to have destroyed the Traditional Catholic Faith
- Modernism and Liberalism have worked there way into the Church, slowly destroying it from the inside
- The Novus Ordo seems like a cruel joke of what was
- Many bishops and priests are heretics, who ignore the teachings of the Church
- The Catholic Church does not look like the true Church after it excommunicates the Eastern Church for something that it didn't do
- The Filioque seems like it does not agree with Tradition

Orthodoxy +

- Doctrine seems to be unchanged and little has been added after the Seventh Ecumenical Council, as I believe is necessary
- Doctrine seems more traditional
- The Divine Liturgy remains mostly unchanged

Orthodoxy -

- The Church is very Ethnocentric
- The Church has no visible head
- The Church had given in to heterodox teachings on Divorce, Remarriage, and Contraception
- Smaller following than the Catholic Church, seems to be mostly concentrated in Eastern Europe and the Middle East.
- Less diversity of people
- Theology is not very defined, some things people can say heterodox things about doctrine, as there is no official written doctrine

 
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« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2008, 08:21:42 PM »

If you would read the post directly before your post from our OzGeorge, you can see that OzGeorge has taken the time to give you links to the tagged threads on the four topics you are questioning.   

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« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2008, 10:55:16 PM »

If you would read the post directly before your post from our OzGeorge, you can see that OzGeorge has taken the time to give you links to the tagged threads on the four topics you are questioning.   

Clearly, this is going to be a monologue, not a dialogue.....
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« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2008, 11:46:48 PM »

Clearly, this is going to be a monologue, not a dialogue.....
Unfortunately, it does appear so.

holdencaulfield, hey buddy, read the linked topics, please.
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« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2008, 11:59:23 PM »

Define "universal jurisdiction". I believe some popes thought they did, but that's about it.
How about some examples - not flowery quotes, but hard historical events to back that UJ up?
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« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2008, 03:11:45 PM »

but the quote from St. Irenaus seems to allude to the Papacy.
His Holiness says that the Bishop of Lyons, St. Irenaeus, writes in praise of the Church of Rome: "That the whole Church, namely, the faithful from everywhere, must come together in that Church, because of its Primacy, in which Church the tradition, given by the Apostles, has in all respects been observed by the faithful everywhere." Although this saint says by no means what the followers of the Vatican would make out, yet even granting their interpretation, we reply: Who denies that the ancient Roman Church was Apostolic and Orthodox? None of us will question that it was a model of orthodoxy. We will specially add, for its greater praise, from the historian Sozomen (Hist. Eccl. lib. iii. cap. 12), the passage, which his Holiness has overlooked, respecting the mode by which for a time she was enabled to preserve the orthodoxy which we praise:—"For, as everywhere," saith Sozomen, "the Church throughout the West, being guided purely by the doctrines of the Fathers, was delivered from contention and deception concerning these things." Would any of the Fathers or ourselves deny her canonical privilege in the rank of the hierarchy, so long as she was guided purely by the doctrines of the Fathers, walking by the plain rule of Scripture and the holy Synods! But at present we do not find preserved in her the dogma of the Blessed Trinity according to the Creed of the holy Fathers assembled first in Nicea and afterwards in Constantinople, which the other five Ecumenical Councils confessed and confirmed with such anathemas on those who adulterated it in the smallest particular, as if they had thereby destroyed it. Nor do we find the Apostolical pattern of holy Baptism, nor the Invocation of the consecrating Spirit upon the holy elements: but we see in that Church the eucharistic Cup, heavenly drink, considered superfluous, (what profanity!) and very many other things, unknown not only to our holy Fathers, who were always entitled the catholic, clear rule and index of Orthodoxy, as his Holiness, revering the truth, himself teaches (p. vi), but also unknown to the ancient holy Fathers of the West. We see that very primacy, for which his Holiness now contends with all his might, as did his predecessors, transformed from a brotherly character and hierarchical privilege into a lordly superiority. What then is to be thought of his unwritten traditions, if the written have undergone such a change and alteration for the worse ? Who is so bold and confident in the dignity of the Apostolic Throne, as to dare to say that if our holy Father, Sr. Irenaeus, were alive again, seeing it was fallen from the ancient and primitive teaching in so many most essential and catholic articles of Christianity, he would not be himself the first to oppose the novelties and self-sufficient constitutions of that Church which was lauded by him as guided purely by the doctrines of the Fathers? For instance, when he saw the Roman Church not only rejecting from her Liturgical Canon, according to the suggestion of the Schoolmen, the very ancient and Apostolic invocation of the Consecrating Spirit, and miserably mutilating the Sacrifice in its most essential part, but also urgently hastening to cut it out from the Liturgies of other Christian Communions also,—his Holiness slanderously asserting, in a manner so unworthy of the Apostolic Throne on which he boasts himself, that it "crept in after t.he division between the East and West" (p. xi. 1.11)—what would not the holy Father say respecting this novelty ? Irenaeus assures us (lib. iv. c. 34) "that bread, from the ground, receiving the evocation of God, is no longer common bread," etc., meaning by "evocation" invocation: for that Irenaeus believed the Mystery of the Sacrifice to be consecrated by means of this invocation is especially remarked even by Franciscus Feu-Ardentius, of the order of popish monks called Minorites, who in 1639 edited the writings of that saint with comments, who says (lib. i. c. 18, p. 114,) that Irenaeus teaches "that the bread and mixed cup become the true Body and Blood of Christ by the words of invocation." Or, hearing of the vicarial and appellate jurisdiction of the Pope, what would not the Saint say, who, for a small and almost indifferent question concerning the celebration of Easter (Euseb. Eccl. Hist. v. 26), so boldly and victoriously opposed and defeated the violence of Pope Victor in the free Church of Christ? Thus he who is cited by his Holiness as a witness of the primacy of the Roman Church, shows that its dignity is not that of a lordship, nor even appellate, to which St. Peter himself was never ordained, but is a brotherly privilege in the Catholic Church, and an honor assigned the Popes on account of the greatness and privilege of the City. Thus, also, the fourth Ecumenical Council, for the preservation of the gradation in rank of Churches canonically established by the third Ecumenical Council (Canon 8 ),—following the second (Canon 3), as that again followed the first (Canon 6), which called the appellate jurisdiction of the Pope over the West a Custom,—thus uttered its determination: "On account of that City being the Imperial City, the Fathers have with reason given it prerogatives" (Canon 28). Here is nothing said of the Pope's special monopoly of the Apostolicity of St. Peter, still less of a vicarship in Rome's Bishops, and an universal Pastorate. This deep silence in regard to such great privileges—nor only so, but the reason assigned for the primacy, not "Feed my sheep," not "On this rock will I build my Church," but simply old Custom, and the City being the Imperial City; and these things, not from the LORD, but from the Fathers—will seem, we are sure, a great paradox to his Holiness entertaining other ideas of his prerogatives. The paradox will be the greater, since, as we shall see, he greatly honors the said fourth Ecumenical Synod as one to be found a witness for his Throne; and St. Gregory, the eloquent, called the Great (lib. i. Ep. 25), was wont to speak of the four (Ecumenical Councils [not the Roman See] as the four Gospels, and the four-sided stone on which the Catholic Church is built.

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/encyc_1848.aspx



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« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2008, 05:43:00 PM »

Define "universal jurisdiction". I believe some popes thought they did, but that's about it.
How about some examples - not flowery quotes, but hard historical events to back that UJ up?

What about when Pope St. Gregory I excommunicated John the Faster who was the Patriarch of Constantinople. Wasn't the Patriarchate of Constantinople out of the Patriarchate of Rome's Jurisdiction. I am really trying to understand I am.
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« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2008, 05:53:26 PM »

@Mickey:

Thank You, that helps a lot.

-----------------------------------------------

Everyone else, sorry I just really don't want to have to read through 30 pages of other peoples conversations. If you don't want to talk to me than don't, however I appreciate the people who do. I would like to ask about certain quotes like by Pope St. Innocent I that seem to view the Roman Church as the Rock, and that it is not the orthodox Confession of Faith, that we must stay in union with, but the Church of Rome. He seems to leave no room for it following into heresy. Perhaps when he spoke of the Roman Church he meant the entire Church, not just the Roman one.

Pope St. Innocent I - 408 AD


"In seeking the things of God . . . following the examples of ancient tradition . . . you have strengthened . . . the vigor of your religion with true reason, for you have acknowledged that judgment is to be referred to us, and have shown that you know what is owed to the Apostolic See, if all of us placed in this position are to desire to follow the apostle himself [Peter] from whom the episcopate itself and the total authority of this name have emerged. Following him, we know how to condemn evils just as well as we know how to approve what is laudable. Or rather, guarding with your priestly office what the Fathers instituted, you did not regard what they had decided, not by human but by divine judgments, as something to be trampled on. They did not regard anything as finished, even though it was the concern of distant and remote provinces, until it had come to the notice of this See [Rome], so that what was a just pronouncement might be confirmed by the authority of this See, and thence other churches—just as all waters proceed from their own natal source and, through the various regions of the whole world, remain pure liquids of an incorrupted head. . . ." (Letters 29:1)

Pope St. Leo I - 445 AD

"Our Lord Jesus Christ . . . established the worship belonging to the divine religion. . . . But the Lord desired that the sacrament of this gift should pertain to all the apostles in such a way that it might be found principally in the most blessed Peter, the highest of all the apostles. And he wanted his gifts to flow into the entire body from Peter himself, as if from the head, in such a way that anyone who had dared to separate himself from the solidarity of Peter would realize that he was himself no longer a sharer in the divine mystery. . . . [You, my brothers], must realize with us, of course, that the Apostolic See—out of reverence for it, I mean—has on countless occasions been reported to in consultation by bishops even of your own province [Vienne]. And through the appeal of various cases to this see, decisions already made have been either revoked or confirmed, as dictated by long-standing custom" (Letters 10:2–3)
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« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2008, 06:55:43 PM »

Everyone else, sorry I just really don't want to have to read through 30 pages of other peoples conversations. If you don't want to talk to me than don't, however I appreciate the people who do.

Just so you know, no one is trying to brush you off or anything like that. It's just that these exact topics have been discussed to death on this forum by the same people over and over, and after answering the same RC quote mines with the same arguments every month or two, some (especially if they have been here a while) get tired of it.
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« Reply #22 on: May 14, 2008, 07:07:35 PM »

However, I still believe that the Fathers said to stay with the Church of Rome, did they ever say to schism if it was heterodox. If you check my profile, you can see that I am interested in both Catholicism and Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #23 on: May 14, 2008, 09:18:09 PM »

I have a feeling this poster is Euthymios. Once again, patriarchates exist because ecumenical councils created them, namely Canon 6 of Nicea, Canon 3 of Constantinople, Canon 28 of Chalcedon, and the resolution at the council of Ephesus in 431 to elevate Jerusalem to the 5th place. A future ecumenical council can add patriarchates, change the rankings or even abolish them altogether.
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« Reply #24 on: May 14, 2008, 09:23:22 PM »

I have a feeling this poster is Euthymios.

I seriously doubt that. In fact I don't even see much resemblance between them.
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« Reply #25 on: May 14, 2008, 09:24:50 PM »

Mickey,

I'm willing to admit a possibility that, had Rome never been the imperial city, it also might not have been accorded the primacy. But even then, I believe that there still would have been a see somewhere (Antioch, perhaps, as the first see that Peter established? or maybe Constantinople as imperial city?) holding the primacy.

-Peter.
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« Reply #26 on: May 14, 2008, 09:25:52 PM »

Go to the thread Papal Infallibility vs Ecumenical Councils, same line of questions and reasoning as his other posts in last few weeks.
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« Reply #27 on: May 14, 2008, 09:28:21 PM »

This poster is genuine. He is also posting at Catholic Answers asking similar question. He is genuinely trying to determine whether the Catholic Church or the Eastern Orthodox Church is the Church is established by Jesus.
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« Reply #28 on: May 14, 2008, 09:32:49 PM »

This poster is genuine.
Only God can know who is and isn't "genuine". The medium of the Internet does not allow anyone to discern who is "genuine" - which is why so many "phishing" sites are successful.

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« Reply #29 on: May 14, 2008, 09:34:28 PM »

This poster is genuine. He is also posting at Catholic Answers asking similar question. He is genuinely trying to determine whether the Catholic Church or the Eastern Orthodox Church is the Church is established by Jesus.

Thank You. This is quite true.
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« Reply #30 on: May 14, 2008, 09:36:05 PM »

I'm willing to admit a possibility that, had Rome never been the imperial city, it also might not have been accorded the primacy. But even then, I believe that there still would have been a see somewhere (Antioch, perhaps, as the first see that Peter established? or maybe Constantinople as imperial city?) holding the primacy.

I believe that Rome holding the Primacy was based on it being the Capital and the place of St. Peter and St. Paul's Martyrdom. However I believe it was more politically oriented as, you can see the Church wanted to move the Primacy to Constantinople however they did not because of Tradition.
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« Reply #31 on: May 14, 2008, 09:40:46 PM »

however Papal Infallibility seems a bit iffy to me. 

I would be curious to know, then, which stance you take:

1. that the pope might make an ex cathedra statement but it wouldn't be infallible

or

2. that it would be impossible for the pope to make an ex cathedra statement -- that is to say, it would be impossible for a pope to exercise the office of pastor and doctor of all Christians, and define a doctrine of faith or morals for the acceptance of the universal Church

Although I don't actually accept either #1 or #2, #2 seems much more reasonable to me than #1.
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« Reply #32 on: May 14, 2008, 09:47:23 PM »

#1. Although traditionally the Roman Patriarchate was very orthodox, there have been some heretical Popes, and lately seems the same.
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« Reply #33 on: May 14, 2008, 09:49:00 PM »

However I believe it was more politically oriented as, you can see the Church wanted to move the Primacy to Constantinople however they did not because of Tradition.
But the Church is the sole arbiter of Tradition. How can something "the Church wanted to do" not be Tradition?
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« Reply #34 on: May 14, 2008, 09:57:07 PM »

But the Church is the sole arbiter of Tradition. How can something "the Church wanted to do" not be Tradition?

I don't know. I just mean I think that the Primacy in the Pentarchy was based purely on political reasons.
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« Reply #35 on: May 14, 2008, 10:01:26 PM »

I don't know. I just mean I think that the Primacy in the Pentarchy was based purely on political reasons.

Well, yes, of course it was.
"The Imperial City" means simply "The Main City of the Empire."
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« Reply #36 on: May 14, 2008, 10:06:26 PM »

Yes Rome held the primacy of Honor (presveia tis timeis as the canons refer to it)  because it was the capital of the Empire.  That Peter and Paul were martyred there and thus recieved top rank is actually an innovation of Pope Damasus. It has been made popular recently amongs some ill-informed ecumenist orthodox churchmen. In fact if this held any sway, Antioch and Jerusalem would not hold the 4th and 5th place in the ranking.  

As St Ireneous said in one of the previous posts that quote him: (im going to give the correct translation, where the latin word 'convenire' is accurately translated, not as 'must agree- and that the 'primacy' refered to is not the roman church but the capital city of rome; ):

"The concourse of believers from all countries, drawn to Rome by neccesity, because that city is the first and most powerful, contributed to preserve there the Apostolic Tradition, because those believers carried there the faith of the churches to which they belonged".

Who were these believers who deposited the aspostolic traditions of their respective churches in Rome? Try, Peter and Paul and Justin Martyr and Polycarp and Ignatius and Hegesipus and the list goes on.

But to demonstrate that this is the truth and leave no stone unturned, and further give evidence  that Rome recieved the first ranking simply because of its civil importance, lets once again review Canon 9 of the Council of Antioch in 341 a.d. for insight into what the Fathers including St. Ireneaos had in mind:

" It behoves the bishop in every province  to acknowledge the bishop who presides in the Metropolis, and who has to take thought of the whole province, BECAUSE ALL MEN OF BUSINESS 'COME TOGETHER' FROM EVERY QUARTER TO THE METROPOLIS. Therefore it is decreed that he have precedence in rank, and that the other bishops do nothing extraordinary without him, according to the ancient canon which prevailed from the times of our Fathers....."


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« Reply #37 on: May 14, 2008, 11:23:13 PM »

I have a feeling this poster is Euthymios....

No, he is not. Holden was specifically sent here from  another, new Orthodox forum with the recommendation to start with two specific threads by name. Sorry he doesn't want to read them, but that is his choice. Some people need active conversations to learn through; others can and do just read our past work made over the last 5+ years first, maybe joining, maybe not.
Too bad relying on CAF for honest info is a total waste now. It would be the equivalent of my going to the local mosque here and asking about Christianity.
I do hope his time here will be fruitful no matter what decision he makes, if any. He comes to the table late it appears, having spent most of his time heretofore in RCC-land where he adopted, apparently unknowingly, a RC vantage.
I wasn't 'blowing him off', I just knew how he got here.
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« Reply #38 on: May 15, 2008, 01:49:45 AM »

.
Holdencaulfield - You quote two Popes of Rome, Innocent I & Leo I, both of whom write in support of the(ir) Papacy.... do you see the irony of this - using Popes to support the Papacy?  Sort of like quoting US Presidents writing in support of, brace yourself, the Presidency.
.
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« Reply #39 on: May 15, 2008, 08:54:26 AM »

Too bad relying on CAF for honest info is a total waste now. It would be the equivalent of my going to the local mosque here and asking about Christianity.

Now now. Grin
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« Reply #40 on: May 15, 2008, 09:06:34 AM »

Now now. Grin

What, CAF? "The waste is terrible thing to mind..."
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« Reply #41 on: May 15, 2008, 09:52:34 AM »

"Rome must not require more from the East with respect to the doctrine of primacy than had been formulated and was lived in the first millennium."
Joseph Ratzinger

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« Reply #42 on: May 15, 2008, 09:56:57 AM »

Mickey, I must respectfully point out that when Cardinal Ratzinger wrote that, he was not the Pope and I disagree with him on this matter.
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« Reply #43 on: May 15, 2008, 10:00:59 AM »

Mickey, first, I respectfully disagree with the good Cardinal on this matter. Second, I think he may have mean more than you do when he mentions that which was required of the East during the first hundred years.
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« Reply #44 on: May 15, 2008, 10:15:10 AM »

Make that 1000 years^
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« Reply #45 on: May 15, 2008, 10:48:41 AM »

Mickey, first, I respectfully disagree with the good Cardinal on this matter.
Yes. I know that you do. There are many Roman Catholics who disagree with that statement.
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« Reply #46 on: May 15, 2008, 10:52:00 AM »

Mickey, I must respectfully point out that when Cardinal Ratzinger wrote that, he was not the Pope and I disagree with him on this matter.

Does that mean you agree that the papacy now is not as it was lived in the first millenium?


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« Reply #47 on: May 15, 2008, 11:14:17 AM »

Does that mean you agree that the papacy now is not as it was lived in the first millenium?



It depends on what you mean. The early Church certainly had a sense of the authority of Rome over all the Churches and also a sense that everyone must agree with Rome on doctrinal matters. Even Irnaeus states that everyone must be in agreement with Rome because of its superior origin, having been taught by the most blessed Apostles Peter and Paul. Did the early Church specicifcally use the terms "Universal Jurisdiction" and "Infallibility"? Of course not. But the first centuries did not see terms like "hypostatic union" or "consubstantial" either. The idea was there, even if it was debated at times, but it was there.
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« Reply #48 on: May 15, 2008, 11:19:43 AM »

Even Irnaeus states that everyone must be in agreement with Rome because of its superior origin, having been taught by the most blessed Apostles Peter and Paul.
That quote does not say what you think it is saying, my friend. Holy Orthodoxy does not deny that the ancient Church of Rome was Apostolic and Orthodox. No one questions that it was a model of orthodoxy.
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« Reply #49 on: May 15, 2008, 11:43:44 AM »

@buzuxi:

You make an excellent point, because if the Primacy was held by Rome was because of it's "spiritual rank" Jerusalem would no doubt be first as it is the Holy Land. However Jerusalem was 5th because it was the least important politically. However I have to disagree with you in that Pope St. Damasus I made up the innovation of St. Peter and Paul's martyrdom being important, it no doubt was. Is not Pope St. Damasus I an Orthodox saint as well?

@Αριστοκλής:

Yes, I do need to actively participate in conversations to gain anything.

@Heracleides:

Yes, however we can believe that the Roman Church was originally Orthodox.

@Papist:

I find no proof for this Universal Jurisdiction anymore. Even when I was leaning towards Catholicism I could not find any examples of Papal Infallibility as being a doctrine. It is illogical and contradicts the Holy Tradition of the Church. Universal Jurisdiction is harder to disprove, however Rome often used the extent it could to it's Primacy, in that it would clear up doctrinal issues, call councils, and excommunicate heretics. However they never seemed to have any actual Jurisdiction over the other Patriarchates other than what was given to them out of kindness. 



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« Reply #50 on: May 15, 2008, 12:17:01 PM »

That quote does not say what you think it is saying, my friend. Holy Orthodoxy does not deny that the ancient Church of Rome was Apostolic and Orthodox. No one questions that it was a model of orthodoxy.

It says excatly what I think it is saying. I have seen people go to great lenght to get around the quote but the fact is that it says that everyone must agree with Rome simply becuase of its superior origin. Rome is always right because of where it came from.
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« Reply #51 on: May 15, 2008, 12:53:27 PM »

It says excatly what I think it is saying. I have seen people go to great lenght to get around the quote but the fact is that it says that everyone must agree with Rome simply becuase of its superior origin. Rome is always right because of where it came from.

It is this type of reasoning that originally made me start questioning Catholicism and considering Orthodoxy. With this mindset Rome can do whatever it wants because it was the Capital of the Roman Empire before the time of St. Constantine. So Rome is allowed to teach heresy like the Filioque because it is Rome? Furthermore, the quote says that we must agree with Rome on everything. I'm not going to deny this, however if Rome, loses the faith should we still stay with it. What about the heretical Novus Ordo, should we continue to follow Rome, because of that?

---------------------------------

Furthermore, I see no proof for Universal Jurisdiction (I'm looking, I really am I said I was considering both Catholicism and Orthodoxy) however there is really no proof of the Roman Patriarchate enforcing it's power on the other Patriarchates, and them listening, or it being nothing more than friendly advice. In fact Pope St. Gregory I condemned any Bishop who said that he was the Bishop over the entire Church. St. Ignatius of Antioch teaches us that each and every Bishop is a member of the Church, however the whole Church must speak Infallibly not just one person. When Rome separated itself from the Orthodox Church it was because it did not want to take the opinion of the Holy Ghost working through the other Patriarchates. The Second Vatican Council is a prime example of an abuse of power.
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« Reply #52 on: May 15, 2008, 01:18:53 PM »

It is this type of reasoning that originally made me start questioning Catholicism and considering Orthodoxy.
Yes. The triumphalism is a turn off.
however there is really no proof of the Roman Patriarchate enforcing it's power on the other Patriarchates
My brother in Christ, you will not find this proof because it does not exist.
The Second Vatican Council is a prime example of an abuse of power.
Have you studied the first Vatican Council? The ultramontanists had been pushing for a doctrine of papal supremacy/infallibility for a long time but it had been shot down by the Latin "councils" of Constance and Basel. Ultimately they found their accomplice in the person of Pope Pius IX.
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« Reply #53 on: May 15, 2008, 01:28:36 PM »

Yes. The triumphalism is a turn off.

It is not so much that, but after reading Timothy Ware's works, it just makes sense that the whole Church is an organism and thus the entire Church should have a say in Infallibility. Did the Roman Church even ask the Eastern Churches about the Filioque. No, Pope Leo IX just assumed that he could do anything that he wanted. All the Apostles received the Holy Ghost, and thus they all should have an equal say in things. I agree that St. Peter had a special leadership over the other Apostles, however he was still equal to them.

My brother in Christ, you will not find this proof because it does not exist.

I have searched and found nothing. If the Holy Ghost wants me in Catholicism He will show me, however He has only been showing Orthodoxy to me lately.

Have you studied the first Vatican Council? The ultramontanists had been pushing for a doctrine of papal supremacy/infallibility for a long time but it had been shot down by the Latin "councils" of Constance and Basel. Ultimately they found their accomplice in the person of Pope Pius IX.

Yes I know that. This is considered the end of the "Concilar Movement". It is ironic because had it not been for the doctrine of Papal Infallibility I would probably be leaning towards Catholicism more, however I cannot see any proof for this, nor should I want to follow a Church that teaches a false doctrine.

However we must look at the time that the First Vatican Council was in. This was during Italian Unification, and the Papacy was fearing for it's power that it might lose some. This is why the Papacy was always a strong opponent of Italian Unification.
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« Reply #54 on: May 15, 2008, 01:38:03 PM »

Now now. Grin

Seriously, have you even read the Eastern Catholic forum over there?  In the dictionary besides ridiculous a link to it is printed.
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« Reply #55 on: May 15, 2008, 01:40:10 PM »

Ok forget CAF what about my problems?  laugh
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« Reply #56 on: May 15, 2008, 01:41:21 PM »

It is not so much that, but after reading Timothy Ware's works, i

Please refrain from using Metropolitan  Kallistos' non-church name, it is disrespectful to enter into an Orthodox forum and call our beloved and God loved Bishops by their first names or by their non-church names.  In the future please write out the Bishop's proper title and his church name. 
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« Reply #57 on: May 15, 2008, 01:45:28 PM »

Please refrain from using Metropolitan  Kallistos' non-church name, it is disrespectful to enter into an Orthodox forum and call our beloved and God loved Bishops by their first names or by their non-church names.  In the future please write out the Bishop's proper title and his church name. 
Let us go easy on him--he is new to Holy Orthodoxy.  Smiley
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« Reply #58 on: May 15, 2008, 01:46:09 PM »

Ok forget CAF what about my problems?  laugh
What other difficulties are you experiencing?
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« Reply #59 on: May 15, 2008, 01:55:32 PM »

Make that 1000 years^
oops. I left out a zero.
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« Reply #60 on: May 15, 2008, 03:12:47 PM »

.
Holdencaulfield - You quote two Popes of Rome, Innocent I & Leo I, both of whom write in support of the(ir) Papacy.... do you see the irony of this - using Popes to support the Papacy?  Sort of like quoting US Presidents writing in support of, brace yourself, the Presidency.
.

@Heracleides:

Yes, however we can believe that the Roman Church was originally Orthodox.

Bingo.
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« Reply #61 on: May 15, 2008, 04:09:26 PM »

It is this type of reasoning that originally made me start questioning Catholicism and considering Orthodoxy. With this mindset Rome can do whatever it wants because it was the Capital of the Roman Empire before the time of St. Constantine. So Rome is allowed to teach heresy like the Filioque because it is Rome? Furthermore, the quote says that we must agree with Rome on everything. I'm not going to deny this, however if Rome, loses the faith should we still stay with it. What about the heretical Novus Ordo, should we continue to follow Rome, because of that?

---------------------------------

Furthermore, I see no proof for Universal Jurisdiction (I'm looking, I really am I said I was considering both Catholicism and Orthodoxy) however there is really no proof of the Roman Patriarchate enforcing it's power on the other Patriarchates, and them listening, or it being nothing more than friendly advice. In fact Pope St. Gregory I condemned any Bishop who said that he was the Bishop over the entire Church. St. Ignatius of Antioch teaches us that each and every Bishop is a member of the Church, however the whole Church must speak Infallibly not just one person. When Rome separated itself from the Orthodox Church it was because it did not want to take the opinion of the Holy Ghost working through the other Patriarchates. The Second Vatican Council is a prime example of an abuse of power.
The quote from Iraneaus says that everyone must agree with Rome, not because of its status as the Capital of Rome, but because of is superior origin, in Sts. Peter and Paul.
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« Reply #62 on: May 15, 2008, 05:28:27 PM »

What other difficulties are you experiencing?

Quotes like that one from St. Iraneous about not leaving the Roman Church, however I believe that he would not want us to follow the Roman Church into heresy.
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« Reply #63 on: May 15, 2008, 05:33:00 PM »

The quote from Iraneaus says that everyone must agree with Rome, not because of its status as the Capital of Rome, but because of is superior origin, in Sts. Peter and Paul.

And like I said, with that reasoning Jerusalem would hold the Primacy. Wouldn't the place where Christ taught because of His superior teachings hold the Primacy. Yes, St. Peter and Paul being in Rome, has something to do with this, however the main reason was because it was the Capital of the Empire. So should we follow the Roman Church in heresy? Should we follow it when it left the Pentarchy. Without a doubt Rome was terrible orthodox until around the 9th and 10th centuries, this is also why it held the Primacy.

Besides St. Iraneaus was under the Roman Patriarchate, and would thus tell people to listen to his Church.
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« Reply #64 on: May 15, 2008, 05:37:13 PM »

@buzuxi:

You make an excellent point, because if the Primacy was held by Rome was because of it's "spiritual rank" Jerusalem would no doubt be first as it is the Holy Land. However Jerusalem was 5th because it was the least important politically. However I have to disagree with you in that Pope St. Damasus I made up the innovation of St. Peter and Paul's martyrdom being important, it no doubt was. Is not Pope St. Damasus I an Orthodox saint as well?

@Αριστοκλής:

Yes, I do need to actively participate in conversations to gain anything.

@Heracleides:

Yes, however we can believe that the Roman Church was originally Orthodox.

@Papist:

I find no proof for this Universal Jurisdiction anymore. Even when I was leaning towards Catholicism I could not find any examples of Papal Infallibility as being a doctrine. It is illogical and contradicts the Holy Tradition of the Church. Universal Jurisdiction is harder to disprove, however Rome often used the extent it could to it's Primacy, in that it would clear up doctrinal issues, call councils, and excommunicate heretics. However they never seemed to have any actual Jurisdiction over the other Patriarchates other than what was given to them out of kindness. 





Dear Holden, Pope Damasus was the first one to use the title 'Apostolic See' for itself, in 382. Right after the Ecumenical Council of Constantinople 381 in canon 3 changed the rankings of Nicea and elevated Constantinople to the second place. This is because Constantinopple was not known to have been found by an apostle. Pope Damasus is also the one that invented the petrine theory that only those patriarchates found by Peter or his disciple (MARK) can be patriarchates. Once again his theory was proven false when Jerusalem was raised to the patriarchate.

It is IMPOSSIBLE for St Ireneous to be saying that all must agree with Rome because of its superiority, since Ireneous himself sided with Polycrates of Ephesus instead of the pope in the dispute over the date of Pascha. Pope Victor ATTEMPTED to excommunicate Polycrates, along with the Asis Minor churches for celbrating Pascha on the passover.  But Ireneous wrote an epistle to Victor admonishing him, that the Asia Minor church follow an equally ancient tradition of the apostle John. Thus Polycrates did not have to agree with Pope Victor, neither did Ireneous. As we can see from this episode of church history , Ireneous did not mean what the latins try to convince us of thru there false translation.
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« Reply #65 on: May 15, 2008, 05:45:48 PM »

Also, should we not look at the context of what St. Irenaeus was writing in? He was writing to heretics, basically denied Apostolic Succession. Lets look at some other quotes, shall we?

Here is his introduction, note that he says all Churches have power:

Quote
"It is within the power of all, therefore, in every Church, who may wish to see the truth, to contemplate clearly the tradition of the apostles manifested throughout the whole world; and we are in a position to reckon up those who were by the apostles instituted bishops in the Churches, and [to demonstrate] the succession of these men to our own times; those who neither taught nor knew of anything like what these [heretics] rave about." (Against Heresies 3:3:1)

Here we should note that St. Irenaeus says that the Bishop of Rome can teach heresy and fall, and that we should not follow him in error:

Quote
"For they were desirous that these men should be very perfect and blameless in all things, whom also they were leaving behind as their successors, delivering up their own place of government to these men; which men, if they discharged their functions honestly, would be a great boon [to the Church], but if they should fall away, the direst calamity." (Against Heresies 3:3:1)

And finally St. Irenaeus shows us that the Church in Ephesus is also The Church:

Quote
"Then, again, the Church in Ephesus, founded by Paul, and having John remaining among them permanently until the times of Trajan, is a true witness of the tradition of the apostles." (Against Heresies 3:3:4)

---------------------------------------------------

If you understood the Primacy of Honor you would understand why the Roman Church held such a powerful position, however not what it is today. No Church can be opposed to its Head (Rome), however when the Head becomes opposed to the Body it fails to be the Head anymore.

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« Reply #66 on: May 15, 2008, 05:48:29 PM »

@buzuxi:

Good point, if you could find the Letter of St. Irenaeus that condemns Pope Victor, we could win this point about the other Letter we were talking about. I must ask though, do you not consider Pope Damasus still a saint? Even though he was a bit egotistical?
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« Reply #67 on: May 15, 2008, 05:53:20 PM »

So should we follow the Roman Church in heresy?

You certainly should not follow Rome into heresy. (I follow Rome because I believe she isn't in heresy.)
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« Reply #68 on: May 15, 2008, 05:55:49 PM »

You certainly should not follow Rome into heresy. (I follow Rome because I believe she isn't in heresy.)

I used to believe that she wasn't as well. But then:

  • Papal Infallibility
  • Universal Jurisdiction
  • The Filioque
  • The Second Vatican Council
  • The Novus Ordo
  • ect.

I guess I never really looked at history before. However after looking at history I want to be in the Original Catholic Church, not the one that is in schism.
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« Reply #69 on: May 15, 2008, 06:03:22 PM »

oops. I left out a zero.

You didn't use any zeros.  Wink
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« Reply #70 on: May 15, 2008, 06:08:23 PM »

Im not arguing that he is not a saint, likewise with Pope St Leo, who said things concerning the papacy which were preposterous, blowing lots of hot air and whining when his See never got its way.  But a saint means he died in the Grace of God not that he was infallible. Even St Gregory of Nyssa is condemned for beleiving in a kind of Origenistic restoration of all things doctrine.

I also disagree with the opinion that Rome was some sort of haven of doctrinal purity. I simply do not find it in the reading of the Fathers or Church History.   St Hippolytus a doctor of the western church, set himself up as the first anti-pope to counter the heresies of Pope Calixtus and Pope Zrphrynus. St Huppolytus writings are some of the harshest ive ever seen against those holding the papacy. Then there was Pope Vigilius who was condemned at the 5th Ecumenical council and name dropped from the diptychs after reciting an encyclical which in modern roman standards would be considered an ex cathedra statement, he repented a few months later saying the devil lead him astray.  Of course there was the heretic Pope Honorius condemned as such at an ecumenical council. Then by the 8th century the entire papacy began to crumble into heresy.

This episode involving Ireneaous along with the Paschal dispute can be found in Eusebius Ecclesiastical history book 5 ch 24-25
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« Reply #71 on: May 15, 2008, 06:22:05 PM »

Im not arguing that he is not a saint, likewise with Pope St Leo, who said things concerning the papacy which were preposterous, blowing lots of hot air and whining when his See never got its way.  But a saint means he died in the Grace of God not that he was infallible. Even St Gregory of Nyssa is condemned for beleiving in a kind of Origenistic restoration of all things doctrine.

I also disagree with the opinion that Rome was some sort of haven of doctrinal purity. I simply do not find it in the reading of the Fathers or Church History.   St Hippolytus a doctor of the western church, set himself up as the first anti-pope to counter the heresies of Pope Calixtus and Pope Zrphrynus. St Huppolytus writings are some of the harshest ive ever seen against those holding the papacy. Then there was Pope Vigilius who was condemned at the 5th Ecumenical council and name dropped from the diptychs after reciting an encyclical which in modern roman standards would be considered an ex cathedra statement, he repented a few months later saying the devil lead him astray.  Of course there was the heretic Pope Honorius condemned as such at an ecumenical council. Then by the 8th century the entire papacy began to crumble into heresy.

This episode involving Ireneaous along with the Paschal dispute can be found in Eusebius Ecclesiastical history book 5 ch 24-25

Sorry, I'm not seeing the thing with St. Ireneaus, could you link me to it? What did Pope Vigilius do that was heretical. Could you also show me the writings of St. Hippolytus that were against the Papacy. They would be interesting as he is a saint in both the Catholic and the Orthodox Church
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« Reply #72 on: May 15, 2008, 06:46:38 PM »

Pope Vigilius presented a writing called the 'Constutum' which was condemned by the 5th Ecumenical Council, This papal writing ended with this strongly worded papal warning:

"We decree and ordain that it be permitted by no one belonging to any eccelsiatical order or office to write or bring forward or compose or teach anything contrary to this Constituum in regard to the Three Chapters, or after this present definition to move any further question. And if anything has been done said or written by anyone ,anywhere about the Three Chapters  contrary to what we here assert and decree... this in all ways we refute by the Authority of the Apotolic See by which by the Grace of God we preside."
This document also contained 61 anathames against anyone who contradicts it.

The Council drew up its own anathemas, which Pope Vigilius fell under, and his name was dropped from the diptychs, "On account of the impiety which he defended". Six months later Pope Vigilius rescinded the first Constituum and wrote a second one  anathemizing the Three Chapters, saying the devil lead him astray.

You can google up Pope Victor and Polycrates with Ireneous involvement. It comes fron Eusebius ecclesiatical history 324a.d.

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« Reply #73 on: May 15, 2008, 06:50:38 PM »

Even Irnaeus states that everyone must be in agreement with Rome because of its superior origin, having been taught by the most blessed Apostles Peter and Paul.

He also says a paragraph later that due to its apostolic origin, Ephesus is a true teacher of the apostolic message. For some reason, some what to believe what Irenaeus said about one city forever, but not others.


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« Reply #74 on: May 15, 2008, 06:53:37 PM »

The quote from Iraneaus says that everyone must agree with Rome, not because of its status as the Capital of Rome, but because of is superior origin, in Sts. Peter and Paul.

I thought it said "assemble at," not "agree with."  Huh
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« Reply #75 on: May 15, 2008, 06:57:41 PM »

Pope Vigilius presented a writing called the 'Constutum' which was condemned by the 5th Ecumenical Council, This papal writing ended with this strongly worded papal warning:

"We decree and ordain that it be permitted by no one belonging to any eccelsiatical order or office to write or bring forward or compose or teach anything contrary to this Constituum in regard to the Three Chapters, or after this present definition to move any further question. And if anything has been done said or written by anyone ,anywhere about the Three Chapters  contrary to what we here assert and decree... this in all ways we refute by the Authority of the Apotolic See by which by the Grace of God we preside."
This document also contained 61 anathames against anyone who contradicts it.

The Council drew up its own anathemas, which Pope Vigilius fell under, and his name was dropped from the diptychs, "On account of the impiety which he defended". Six months later Pope Vigilius rescinded the first Constituum and wrote a second one  anathemizing the Three Chapters, saying the devil lead him astray.

You can google up Pope Victor and Polycrates with Ireneous involvement. It comes fron Eusebius ecclesiatical history 324a.d.



That's very interesting. I guess that pretty much proves the whole Supremacy of the Pope thing wrong right there.
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« Reply #76 on: May 15, 2008, 06:58:00 PM »

I thought it said "assemble at," not "agree with."  Huh

The roman apologists tend to translate it as "must agree",   'assemble at' is correct. All roads lead to Rome it was the hub of business and commerce and transportation hence many came to (assembled at) Rome and deposited the Apostolic Tradition of their churches there.
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« Reply #77 on: May 15, 2008, 07:00:53 PM »

Could someone post me the documents where St. Hippolytus condemns the modern concept of the Papacy. We already have a good list of saints against the Papacy, thanks guys this is really helping me discern between Orthodoxy and Catholicism. My list

  • Pope St. Gregory I
  • St. Irenaeus
  • St. Hippolytus

Lets make this list longer.  Cheesy
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« Reply #78 on: May 15, 2008, 07:02:33 PM »

The roman apologists tend to translate it as "must agree",   'assemble at' is correct. All roads lead to Rome it was the hub of business and commerce and transportation hence many came to (assembled at) Rome and deposited the Apostolic Tradition of their churches there.

Regardless, we have already proved this wrong as not even St. Irenaeus believed this himself and condemned Pope Victor. Could you post some info on this as well?
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« Reply #79 on: May 15, 2008, 07:04:42 PM »

Could someone post me the documents where St. Hippolytus condemns the modern concept of the Papacy. We already have a good list of saints against the Papacy, thanks guys this is really helping me discern between Orthodoxy and Catholicism. My list

  • Pope St. Gregory I
  • St. Irenaeus
  • St. Hippolytus

Lets make this list longer.  Cheesy

If you want an overview from an Orthodox point of view, buy "Two Paths" by Michael Whelton

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« Reply #80 on: May 15, 2008, 07:06:36 PM »

If you want an overview from an Orthodox point of view, buy "Two Paths" by Michael Whelton



I just wanted to create a small list here, with quotes from them, ect.
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« Reply #81 on: May 15, 2008, 07:06:51 PM »

Here is a link from the Christian Library that has ties with the University of Lousiville. You can scroll past the first 2 or 3 paragraphs since it doesnt pertain to what we are discussing:
http://elvis.rowan.edu/~kilroy/christia/library/irenaeus.html
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« Reply #82 on: May 15, 2008, 07:14:04 PM »

@buzuxi:

Good post.
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« Reply #83 on: May 15, 2008, 07:15:58 PM »

Someone want to post something from St. Hippolytus condemning the Papacy?
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« Reply #84 on: May 15, 2008, 07:24:27 PM »

Hippolytus wrote against 2 popes Callistus and Zephrynos whom he deemed heretics.  Here is his wiriting, and yes his harsh words are against them, which proves Hippolytus knew of no papal supremacy or infallibility:

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf05.iii.iii.vii.vii.html
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« Reply #85 on: May 15, 2008, 07:34:51 PM »

Thanks.
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« Reply #86 on: May 15, 2008, 07:46:14 PM »

@buzuxi:

Sorry, I can see that I am being annoying, however I always cross reference any work on the Fathers, because often there are different translations, could you just give me the name of the book they are in, ect. I usually read the Fathers off of New Advent, because it has the most complete lists of Fathers. If you know another website that would be great, however could you give me those. I work well with quotes of the Fathers. If I am to prove Orthodoxy correct, I am going to have to start disproving the Papal Claims, as I already know the Filioque is bunch of lies.
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« Reply #87 on: May 15, 2008, 07:50:32 PM »

Hippolytus, Refutation of all heresies Book IX- Conduct of Callistus and Zephrynus
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« Reply #88 on: May 15, 2008, 07:58:11 PM »

Well, here is another example of a saint of the Catholic Church claiming that the Popes can and have been heretics, and challenges the modern Roman Catholic conception of the Papacy.

St. Hippolytus

"The school of these heretics during the succession of such bishops, continued to acquire strength and augmentation, from the fact that Zephyrinus and Callistus helped them to prevail.  Never at any time, however, have we been guilty of collusion with them; but we have frequently offered them opposition,  and have refuted them, and have forced them reluctantly to acknowledge the truth. And they, abashed and constrained by the truth, have confessed their errors for a short period, but after a little, wallow once again in the same mire." (Refutation of all Heresies 9:2)
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« Reply #89 on: May 16, 2008, 08:42:36 AM »

I usually read the Fathers off of New Advent, because it has the most complete lists of Fathers.
Words of warning. Be very weary of the website "New Advent". I have come across many instances of error and gross bias.
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« Reply #90 on: May 16, 2008, 09:39:53 AM »

And like I said, with that reasoning Jerusalem would hold the Primacy. Wouldn't the place where Christ taught because of His superior teachings hold the Primacy. Yes, St. Peter and Paul being in Rome, has something to do with this, however the main reason was because it was the Capital of the Empire. So should we follow the Roman Church in heresy? Should we follow it when it left the Pentarchy. Without a doubt Rome was terrible orthodox until around the 9th and 10th centuries, this is also why it held the Primacy.

Besides St. Iraneaus was under the Roman Patriarchate, and would thus tell people to listen to his Church.
First, the Fathers did not teach that we must all agree with Jerusalem becuase of its origin. They taught that we must all agree with Rome because of its superior origin. That's the tradition of the Church. Second, Rome has never been in heresy. It has just never happened.
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« Reply #91 on: May 16, 2008, 10:20:23 AM »

Second, Rome has never been in heresy. It has just never happened.

Papist, why don't you instead work on convincing holdencaulfield of the truth of:

  • Papal Infallibility
  • Universal Jurisdiction
  • The Filioque

which are, after all Catholic dogmas. It seems your priorities are a little confused.
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« Reply #92 on: May 16, 2008, 10:24:46 AM »

Then there was Pope Vigilius who was condemned at the 5th Ecumenical council and name dropped from the diptychs after reciting an encyclical which in modern roman standards would be considered an ex cathedra statement, he repented a few months later saying the devil lead him astray.  

This may sound trite, but my view is that Pope Vigilius was not defining a dogma. (I don't know whether he himself thought he was doing so, but that would not change the fact that he wasn't.)
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« Reply #93 on: May 16, 2008, 10:52:42 AM »

which in modern roman standards would be considered an ex cathedra statement

By the way, those "modern roman standards" are a particular interest of mine.
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« Reply #94 on: May 16, 2008, 11:26:52 AM »

Papist, why don't you instead work on convincing holdencaulfield of the truth of:

which are, after all Catholic dogmas. It seems your priorities are a little confused.
Instead of what?
And I am not trying to convert him. This is an Eastern Orthodox forum and it would be inappropriate for me to do so. Just have a discussion.
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« Reply #95 on: May 16, 2008, 11:50:12 AM »

First, the Fathers did not teach that we must all agree with Jerusalem becuase of its origin. They taught that we must all agree with Rome because of its superior origin. That's the tradition of the Church. Second, Rome has never been in heresy. It has just never happened.

Except for all the examples of when it was in heresy pre-1054, and we have already seen that many saints of the Churches disagreed with the Popes, they were often excommunicated, and we have seen that Ecumenical Councils are above the Pope (aka Pope Honorius). Futhermore, I was being hypothetical. If the Primacy of the Churches was based on theology Jerusalem would be first. However it is not, it's based on politics.
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« Reply #96 on: May 16, 2008, 11:52:59 AM »

This may sound trite, but my view is that Pope Vigilius was not defining a dogma. (I don't know whether he himself thought he was doing so, but that would not change the fact that he wasn't.)

Ex Cathedra, is anything that has to do with faith or morals, so if he was teaching something to the entire Church, then that would be Ex Cathedra. However he only had the power to teach to the Roman Patriarchate, however the other Patriarchates could listen if they wanted to. It's funny how Ex Cathedra statements for the Catholic Church are only what the Church wants them to be. What about Pope Pius V's statement on how the Tridentine Form of the Mass could never be abolished. I guess Pope Paul VI forgot about that in his heretical rage.
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« Reply #97 on: May 16, 2008, 12:20:28 PM »

Instead of what?

Sorry if I was unclear. That post was meant as a response to the one right above it.
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« Reply #98 on: May 16, 2008, 12:21:21 PM »

Ex Cathedra, is anything that has to do with faith or morals,

Dude! Who've you been listening to?
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« Reply #99 on: May 16, 2008, 12:34:54 PM »

Except for all the examples of when it was in heresy pre-1054, and we have already seen that many saints of the Churches disagreed with the Popes, they were often excommunicated, and we have seen that Ecumenical Councils are above the Pope (aka Pope Honorius).
Of course there are examples of people being disobedient to the Pope. There will always be sins the in the Church.

Futhermore, I was being hypothetical. If the Primacy of the Churches was based on theology Jerusalem would be first. However it is not, it's based on politics.
You are arguing against the great Church Father, St. Iraneaus on this one, not with me.
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« Reply #100 on: May 16, 2008, 12:35:12 PM »

Dude! Who've you been listening to?

The First Vatican Council.

"that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals." (The First Vatican Council 4)
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« Reply #101 on: May 16, 2008, 12:39:10 PM »

Of course there are examples of people being disobedient to the Pope. There will always be sins the in the Church.

Well then the entire Roman Church is in sin with that definition, as Pope Honorius is a heretic. Was the entire Church being heretics by disagreeing with him for being a heretic.

You are arguing against the great Church Father, St. Iraneaus on this one, not with me.

Am I? St. Irenæus made obvioussly did'nt believe in this himself because he later disagreed with Pope Victor. So there you have it. He obvioussly did not agree with this. Also we have clarified that some translations have the words "assemble" at not "agree".
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« Reply #102 on: May 16, 2008, 12:46:09 PM »

I guess St. Irenæus is a heretic as well

"St. Irenæus wrote two treatises against him: "On the Monarchy [of God] and that God is not the Author of Evil", and "On the Ogdoad". Irenaeus also called Victor's attention to the dangerous writings of Florinus, who was probably degraded from his priestly functions by the pope and expelled from the Church (Eusebius, "Hist. eccl.", V, xv, 20)." (The Catholic Encyclopedia)
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« Reply #103 on: May 16, 2008, 12:54:49 PM »

St. Irenæus

"for the 'Rock was Christ' Himself: thus does Jesus now give to His believing people power to drink spiritual waters, which spring up to life eternal." (Fragments LII)

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« Reply #104 on: May 16, 2008, 01:02:36 PM »

Eusebius of Caesarea

"Thus Irenæus, who truly was well named, became a peacemaker in this matter, exhorting and negotiating in this way in behalf of the peace of the churches. And he conferred by letter about this mooted question, not only with Victor, but also with most of the other rulers of the churches." (Church History 5:24:18)
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« Reply #105 on: May 16, 2008, 01:45:50 PM »

(Started to put this in the other thread, then changed my mind.)

"that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals." (The First Vatican Council 4)

Ex Cathedra, is anything that has to do with faith or morals

You've completely misread what you quoted from Vatican I. It does not say "anything that has to do with faith or morals", but rather "defining doctrine concerning faith or morals". See the difference?
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« Reply #106 on: May 16, 2008, 01:55:53 PM »

Let us go easy on him--he is new to Holy Orthodoxy.  Smiley

It is always pertinent to remind every poster at all times whether 1 post or 10,000 posts to please address Eastern Orthodox Clergy properly on Oc.net.  More and more this trend to refer to Bishops by their first name only is becoming commonplace online.  It is our duty as faithful Christians entrusted to the care of our Bishops to assert that they are addressed properly, be it online, in an official letter, at a dinner, in confession or well, anywhere.
So while I appreciate your concerns I will repeat that it is proper to always address an Eastern Orthodox bishop by his full title here at oc.net.  -username!


 
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« Reply #107 on: May 16, 2008, 01:56:41 PM »

Well then the entire Roman Church is in sin with that definition, as Pope Honorius is a heretic. Was the entire Church being heretics by disagreeing with him for being a heretic.
The word heretic had a much broader meaning in the early Church. It could even included those who acted wrong, not only those who taught heresy. Honorius was certainly guilty of being a week leader. But he never forumally promulgated heresy.
Am I? St. Irenæus made obvioussly did'nt believe in this himself because he later disagreed with Pope Victor. So there you have it. He obvioussly did not agree with this. Also we have clarified that some translations have the words "assemble" at not "agree".
[/quote]
I believe that it is quite possible that he means "agree" by this term. You have provided a transliteration, but what exactly does he mean?
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« Reply #108 on: May 16, 2008, 02:00:54 PM »

The word heretic had a much broader meaning in the early Church. It could even included those who acted wrong, not only those who taught heresy. Honorius was certainly guilty of being a week leader. But he never forumally promulgated heresy.

Pope Honorius was excommunicated as a heretic. If you want to argue against history go ahead. That's historical fact.

I believe that it is quite possible that he means "agree" by this term. You have provided a transliteration, but what exactly does he mean?

Rome was the Capital of the Roman Empire, all roads lead to Rome.
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« Reply #109 on: May 16, 2008, 02:06:07 PM »

Origen

"But if you suppose that upon that one Peter only the whole church is built by God, what would you say about John the son of thunder or each one of the Apostles? Shall we otherwise dare to say, that against Peter in particular the gates of Hades shall not prevail, but that they shall prevail against the other Apostles and the perfect? Does not the saying previously made, The gates of Hades shall not prevail against it, hold in regard to all and in the case of each of them? And also the saying, Upon this rock I will build My church? Are the keys of the kingdom of heaven given by the Lord to Peter only, and will no other of the blessed receive them? But if this promise, I will give unto you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, Matthew be common to the others, how shall not all the things previously spoken of, and the things which are subjoined as having been addressed to Peter, be common to them? For in this place these words seem to be addressed as to Peter only, Whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, Matthew etc." (Commentary on Matthew 12:11)
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« Reply #110 on: May 16, 2008, 03:25:37 PM »

Pope Honorius was excommunicated as a heretic. If you want to argue against history go ahead. That's historical fact.

Rome was the Capital of the Roman Empire, all roads lead to Rome.
I am not arguing against history. I agree. He was excommunicated as a heretic. But that word has a broader meaning than you seem to understand.
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« Reply #111 on: May 16, 2008, 05:01:17 PM »

It is always pertinent to remind every poster at all times whether 1 post or 10,000 posts to please address Eastern Orthodox Clergy properly on Oc.net.  More and more this trend to refer to Bishops by their first name only is becoming commonplace online.  It is our duty as faithful Christians entrusted to the care of our Bishops to assert that they are addressed properly, be it online, in an official letter, at a dinner, in confession or well, anywhere.
So while I appreciate your concerns I will repeat that it is proper to always address an Eastern Orthodox bishop by his full title here at oc.net.  -username!

I could use some clarification:

#1 - I see references to MP (for Moscow Patriarchate) and EP (Ecumenical Patriarchate) - are these allowed and acceptable?
#2 - Do I have to use Metropolitan <Name> or His Emimence Metropolitan <Name> if I wish to refer to him in any posting?
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« Reply #112 on: May 16, 2008, 05:37:00 PM »

I am not arguing against history. I agree. He was excommunicated as a heretic. But that word has a broader meaning than you seem to understand.

I know it does. So by definition a Pope can be a heretic. He was anathematized.
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« Reply #113 on: May 16, 2008, 05:37:26 PM »

I could use some clarification:

#1 - I see references to MP (for Moscow Patriarchate) and EP (Ecumenical Patriarchate) - are these allowed and acceptable?
#2 - Do I have to use Metropolitan <Name> or His Emimence Metropolitan <Name> if I wish to refer to him in any posting?

The abbreviations are fine. What the objection to was just calling the bishop something like

Kallistos

or

+Kallistos

or using his former name Timothy Ware.

Don't worry, the thought police are not coming for anyone. We just want to make sure that bishops are referred to as

Metropolitan X
Bishop X

etc.  abbreviations are fine:

Met X

Bp X
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« Reply #114 on: May 16, 2008, 05:40:55 PM »

I'm sure my quote by Origin is almost never used by Catholic Apologists, why? Because it destroys the Roman concept of the Papacy. I have more if you want them. I am pretty much converted over to Orthodoxy. Hey, I agree that Catholicism is correct on many things, however what Rome is now, is not the Church. It is interesting how now that I have looked actually into Orthodoxy, that they really have the better arguments, I just always ignored them before. Also there have been so many Popes that agree with the Orthodox faith for example Pope St. Leo III and Pope St. Gregory I.
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« Reply #115 on: May 16, 2008, 05:46:54 PM »

The last straw for me was really the Filioque. It is so obviously heresy. I guess if you want to have heresy in the Creed, that's ok.
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« Reply #116 on: May 16, 2008, 06:03:02 PM »

The abbreviations are fine. What the objection to was just calling the bishop something like

Kallistos

or

+Kallistos

or using his former name Timothy Ware.

Don't worry, the thought police are not coming for anyone. We just want to make sure that bishops are referred to as

Metropolitan X
Bishop X

etc.  abbreviations are fine:

Met X

Bp X

Thank You Deacon.  Just for clarification, How about Pat X for Patriarchs?  I'm just trying to avoid writing out the entire title since I find it easier to use the abbreviations.
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« Reply #117 on: May 16, 2008, 06:27:38 PM »

SolEX01:

How about just Patriarch or Metropolitan?
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« Reply #118 on: May 16, 2008, 07:03:15 PM »

Thank You Deacon.  Just for clarification, How about Pat X for Patriarchs?  I'm just trying to avoid writing out the entire title since I find it easier to use the abbreviations.

That's fine.
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« Reply #119 on: May 16, 2008, 07:06:45 PM »

Ok I have some general questions for the Orthodox members here.

1) On Sunday I am visiting an OCA parish, just to make sure the OCA is 100% canonical and in communion with the other Patriarchates?

2) How traditional is the OCA, compared to the other Churches?

3) How easy is it to change your Jurisdiction in the Church?

4) Are there any Liturgical Abuses (or the Orthodox equivalent of what they are in the Catholic Church) that I should look for?

Thanks
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« Reply #120 on: May 16, 2008, 07:32:05 PM »

Ok I have some general questions for the Orthodox members here.

1) On Sunday I am visiting an OCA parish, just to make sure the OCA is 100% canonical and in communion with the other Patriarchates?

100% "canonical". In communion with all the other patriarchates. Autocephalous status not recognized by Ecumenical Patriarch (but still in communion through Moscow - the OCA's mother church) - this is not impediment to you.
Quote
2) How traditional is the OCA, compared to the other Churches?
As a general rule, probably more than some others.
Quote
3) How easy is it to change your Jurisdiction in the Church?

IF necessary, not difficult if one is in good standing with one's current jurisdiction. You may commune in any nonetheless without a formal switch.
Quote
4) Are there any Liturgical Abuses (or the Orthodox equivalent of what they are in the Catholic Church) that I should look for?
None come to mind.


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« Reply #121 on: May 16, 2008, 07:40:57 PM »

@Αριστοκλής:

Thanks, so pretty much I should not have to worry about Liturgical Abuses at all? Amazing. I think the parish is pretty traditional, because I looked on the website and they had a Curtain behind the Royal Doors, and most women wore head coverings. Is that good? However the Royal Doors are very small like waist height, is that ok?
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« Reply #122 on: May 16, 2008, 07:59:11 PM »

@Αριστοκλής:

Thanks, so pretty much I should not have to worry about Liturgical Abuses at all? Amazing. I think the parish is pretty traditional, because I looked on the website and they had a Curtain behind the Royal Doors, and most women wore head coverings. Is that good? However the Royal Doors are very small like waist height, is that ok?

Sure it's 'good'. And if they lacked some of these things, it wouldn't matter (unless you're planning on wearing a headcovering which I would not recommend   Cheesy ). These are but minor externals -  the True Faith is found in all of them. Some parishes may have curtains, some not especially those which came back to Orthodoxy after a sojourn as Eastern Catholic parishes. Some may have pews and more traditional ones, not. Again, doesn't matter in giving Glory to God. Don't make this too hard on yourself. Be joyful.
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« Reply #123 on: May 16, 2008, 08:12:31 PM »

I will.
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« Reply #124 on: May 17, 2008, 06:04:59 PM »

I will.
Hello my young friend. Always a pleasure.  Smiley

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« Reply #125 on: May 17, 2008, 07:55:54 PM »

Holdencaufield...

I just wanted to pipe up and say thanks for all the questions you've been asking.  I  followed your posts on another forum (FE, not CAF, can't bear to go there, LOL) and I have to say the answers you've been given have also been great help to me.

Enjoy Sunday!

Andrea



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« Reply #126 on: May 19, 2008, 04:49:15 AM »

I used to believe that she wasn't as well. But then:
  • The Second Vatican Council
  • The Novus Ordo
I just find this interesting, because dissenting traditionalist Catholics aren't real fans of those two things either, but they also tend to be huge supporters of papal authority...so long as the pope was pope before Vatican II, anyway...

The abbreviations are fine. What the objection to was just calling the bishop something like

Kallistos

or

+Kallistos

or using his former name Timothy Ware.
I can see why people might be confused, however.  On my copy of The Orthodox Church, Metropolitan Kallistos' name on the cover clearly says "Timothy Ware."
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« Reply #127 on: May 20, 2008, 06:57:06 PM »

I can see why people might be confused, however.  On my copy of The Orthodox Church, Metropolitan Kallistos' name on the cover clearly says "Timothy Ware."
Yes, unfortunately Met. Kallistos' book The Orthodox Church was published under the name of Timothy Ware, and thus Penguin (the publishing company) continues to reissue it with that name. To my knowledge, however, all of his other books use the name Kallistos Ware. It can be confusing to those who do not understand the name change.
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« Reply #128 on: December 05, 2008, 07:47:42 PM »

I used to believe that she wasn't as well. But then:
  • The Second Vatican Council
  • The Novus Ordo
I just find this interesting, because dissenting traditionalist Catholics aren't real fans of those two things either, but they also tend to be huge supporters of papal authority...so long as the pope was pope before Vatican II, anyway...

The abbreviations are fine. What the objection to was just calling the bishop something like

Kallistos

or

+Kallistos

or using his former name Timothy Ware.
I can see why people might be confused, however.  On my copy of The Orthodox Church, Metropolitan Kallistos' name on the cover clearly says "Timothy Ware."
What? I'm a traditionalist but I love the Novus Ordo, when celebrated properly, and I love Vatican II when interprated in accord with holy tradition.
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« Reply #129 on: January 07, 2009, 10:08:02 PM »

Holdencaufield...

I just wanted to pipe up and say thanks for all the questions you've been asking.  I  followed your posts on another forum (FE, not CAF, can't bear to go there, LOL) and I have to say the answers you've been given have also been great help to me.

Enjoy Sunday!

Andrea





Yeah, I have to agree and say thanks to everyone that participated on this thread. I am still considering becoming either Orthodox or Catholic though(although after reading this and other stuff I have to say Catholicism is pretty much out of the question. Although I have said this about Orthodoxy in the past so it's still going to take some time until I feel right about my decision.).

And to Andrea, what website is FE? And do you have the links to the posts from Holden that would pertain to the topic of choosing Orthodoxy or Catholicism on FE? I would greatly appreciate it
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