Author Topic: Trinity  (Read 4175 times)

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Offline theinformer

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Trinity
« on: May 09, 2008, 08:55:28 PM »
We know god is one in three divine persons,hence why they are all identified as god.But is GOD also one and three?

Offline scamandrius

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Re: Trinity
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2008, 12:06:20 AM »
Do the math:  1+1+1=1.  IT's so simple!   ;)

By the way, you write
But is GOD also one and three?

Did you mean to write that God is also one in three as opposed to and? 

I believe it was Tertullian who first coined the phrase tres personas in unum deum (three persons in one God), but I've yet to hear the reverse of God in three persons.  To me that would imply that God was separated into 1/3 Father, 1/3 Son and 1/3 Holy Spirit which is modalism and, thus, heretical.  To say three persons in one God, however, does not diminish the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as three holisitic identities.  Let's get some experts in on this one!  Cleveland, Ozgeorge, Fr. Chris, Fr. Dn. Anastasios, I mean you!
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Offline theinformer

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Re: Trinity
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2008, 01:08:53 AM »
i mean is god also considered to be one and three?, notice how i say GOD not godS.So can we also say god is one and three.I say this because god is made up of three divine person, and therefore is ONE.And is also say god is three because the three divine persons are all identified as GOD.God the Father,God the son and god the holy spirit, hence GOD is three.But is this valid? Can we say that God is three and one?.

Offline Papist

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Re: Trinity
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2008, 01:48:04 AM »
We do not believe that God is one God and three gods. Nor do we believe that he is one person and three persons. With Regard to persons he is three. With regard to divinity, essence, being, existence, etc, he is one.
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Trinity
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2008, 02:47:29 AM »
i mean is god also considered to be one and three?, notice how i say GOD not godS.So can we also say god is one and three.I say this because god is made up of three divine person, and therefore is ONE.And is also say god is three because the three divine persons are all identified as GOD.God the Father,God the son and god the holy spirit, hence GOD is three.But is this valid? Can we say that God is three and one?.
You need to complete your question. Your question: "Can we say that God is three and one?" requires you to explain what you mean by "three and one". "Three and one" what....? Three and one apples? Three and one gooseberries? God is One God in Three Persons who all share the same Divine Essence. He is One with respect to His Divinity, and He is Three in respect to His Hypostases.
If you have a pair of conjoined twins ("siamese twins") which share the same heart and cannot therefore be separated, how many persons do you have? One or two? You have two persons who share the same heart.
God is Three Persons who share the same Divine Nature and are therefore indivisible (cannot be divided).
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Offline theinformer

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Re: Trinity
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2008, 03:12:55 AM »
I mean that There a three divine persons, who which of them are identified as GOD.Thats why we have GOD the father, GOD the son, and GOD the holy spirit.Because of this cant we say that god is also three?.Not three GODS because they all share the one devine substance, and therefore they are also ONE.They are distinct divine persons but they are together an inseperable GOD.

Offline theinformer

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Re: Trinity
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2008, 03:19:39 AM »
God is made up of persons, which are DIVINE persons,who share the One divine essence and substance and therefore each of the persons are identified as GOD.so therefore isnt GOD three?. And i mean god is three not in substance nor essence, but just in general.So when someone asks you who is God? can i say to them that GOD is three and one?.They are three because all three are identified as GOD. And they are one because they make up the ONE god?.

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Trinity
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2008, 03:36:07 AM »
Because of this cant we say that god is also three?
Three what?

so therefore isnt GOD three?
Again I ask: Three what?
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Offline theinformer

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Re: Trinity
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2008, 11:20:27 PM »
They are three divine person who are each god.Three because they are three person and one because they share the ONE substance and essence.So therefore could you say that they are three gods in one GOD, in this context?.

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Trinity
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2008, 11:32:31 PM »
Deleted...

I detect language issues and don't really know if he's got this right in his mind.

But then again, a repeat of Orthodoxy 101 is in order from his closing statement.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2008, 11:36:34 PM by Αριστοκλής »
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Re: Trinity
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2008, 11:36:53 PM »
They are three divine person who are each god.Three because they are three person and one because they share the ONE substance and essence.So therefore could you say that they are three gods in one GOD, in this context?.
No, because each Divine Person is fully what the other two are, save only in their different relationships to the Father.  The Father is God, not a god.  The Son is God, not a god.  The Holy Spirit is God, not a god.  God is not made up of the three Persons of the Trinity; rather, God exists as the three Persons of the Trinity.  Let me offer a summation of the words of the Fathers of Orthodox Trinitarian theology, Ss. Basil the Great, Gregory the Theologian, and Gregory of Nyssa.  The Father is God and the source and fountain of all Godhead.  The Son is God in that He is eternally begotten of the Father.  The Holy Spirit is God in that He proceeds eternally from the Father.

A good primary source to read on the theology of the Cappadocian Fathers listed above is St. Basil's tract On the Holy Spirit, which can be found in virtually any good Orthodox bookstore.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2008, 11:38:01 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline theinformer

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Re: Trinity
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2008, 12:05:31 AM »
i know about all the processions and all that.We can know confirm that GOD consists of three divine persons, who are each identified as god but each of them is not a god.Together they are god.??

Offline theinformer

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Re: Trinity
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2008, 12:26:13 AM »
HAHA Papist you heretical stooge, if you think you have the grace of god and you and all your other friends are wrong.Heresy will put you in hell.You clearly know which religion is the truth and yet you willingly ignore to adhere to it.Your pretty reminiscent of an obstinate jew. You think that you have procured gods grace, but how can you when you have excommunicated yourself from it?. You, infact, are you doing everything contrary to gods will, and yet you are aspiring to be in accordance to it- its even ironic.So for your own benefit do what you intend to do properly- and that is done through christ's true church-the ORTHODOX church.


And what does this ad hominem rant have to do with the subject of the Holy Trinity?  Be warned that such rants even against our Roman Catholic posters will not be tolerated.

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« Last Edit: May 11, 2008, 01:28:49 AM by PeterTheAleut »

Offline theinformer

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Re: Trinity
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2008, 03:26:59 AM »
ok peter. can anyone confirm this?. i know about all the processions and all that.We can know confirm that GOD consists of three divine persons, who are each identified as god but each of them is not a god.Together they are god.??

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Trinity
« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2008, 05:33:43 AM »
ok peter. can anyone confirm this?. i know about all the processions and all that.We can know confirm that GOD consists of three divine persons, who are each identified as god but each of them is not a god.Together they are god.??
Try not to think too hard about this great mystery of the Orthodox Faith. ;)  Each of the three Divine Persons is fully and completely God within Himself--each needs neither of the other Two to complete the Divinity He possesses in His Person.  Yet all three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, are together one God:  one in essence and undivided.
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Offline Irenaeus07

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Re: Trinity
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2008, 06:08:52 AM »
We know god is one in three divine persons,hence why they are all identified as god.But is GOD also one and three?

In reality, the true nature of the Trinity is a mystery, and can really only be understood by experiencing the Trinity.  Our explanations only hint at the reality of the Oneness of the Trinity.

Our Father is in Heaven, and the Word of God (Jesus -The Way to Father) and the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) is how the Father interacts with His Creation. They are One in essense, yet They are distinct (which has been defined by the Church as Persons).  One cannot interact with Father, except through the word of God (The Way) and being guided by the Holy Spirit all at the same time.  One cannot be guided by the Holy Spirit, except that they are on the way (Through the son), and interacting with the Father, all at the same time.  You cannot embrace Jesus (embark upon the way) except that you reach the Father, through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, all at the same time. So they are One.

The Trinity is really a deeper understanding of the Oneness of God. That is how I understand it.

And our Lord knows best.

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Trinity
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2008, 08:20:04 PM »
On the one hand you say:
notice how i say GOD not godS.

And yet you go ahead and say:
So therefore could you say that they are three gods in one GOD, in this context?.

You are contradicting yourself.
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Offline falafel333

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Re: Trinity
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2008, 08:46:41 PM »
You could not say three Gods because that would indicate a distinction or separation in essence where there is one God, one divine nature, one essence which is thrice hypostasized.

Offline theinformer

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Re: Trinity
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2008, 03:01:28 AM »
NO not necassarily, three gods can share one devine substance and essense which they do.In this context i say that theres three gods because all three are identified as god.But this maybe wrong so if it is clarify it.Ok just say yes or no that this question.  GOD consists of three divine persons, who are each identified as god but each of them is not a god.Together they are god?. YES or NO.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Trinity
« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2008, 04:14:01 AM »
NO not necassarily, three gods can share one devine substance and essense which they do.In this context i say that theres three gods because all three are identified as god.But this maybe wrong so if it is clarify it.Ok just say yes or no that this question.  GOD consists of three divine persons, who are each identified as god but each of them is not a god.Together they are god?. YES or NO.
Methinks you want far too simple and logical an answer to this question regarding the deepest, most profound mystery of Christian faith. ;)  For one, we need to recognize that God is utterly beyond all human attempts to comprehend and describe Him, so some of the language we use in our feeble attempts to do so will sound self-contradictory to you.  Just accept that for what it is and you'll save yourself a lot of trouble. 8)


Besides, I already answered your question in Reply #14 above, but since you appear to not like my answer, I'll let falafel333 answer you in his own words, as well.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2008, 04:21:56 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline theinformer

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Re: Trinity
« Reply #20 on: May 12, 2008, 05:20:22 AM »
The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, are together one God:  one in essence and undivided.
[/quote]

So they are together one god but each of them are identified as god.So because they are three divine persons who are identified as god, yet as you said, each isnt god but together they are.Im not saying they are gods in that context.What i mean by each of them being identified as god is that they are each called god but they are not seperate gods.What makes them each god is that they possess the 1 divine substance and essence.What i mean by gods is that they are divine-persons.so when i mean that they are identified as god,i mean that they are divine persons. GET IT FELLOWS ?.


Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Trinity
« Reply #21 on: May 12, 2008, 08:08:24 AM »
What i mean by gods is that they are divine-persons.
Well, if you want to worship three gods, no one can stop you. We are Christians, and we worship One God.

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Offline falafel333

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Re: Trinity
« Reply #22 on: May 12, 2008, 12:04:27 PM »
NO not necassarily, three gods can share one devine substance and essense which they do.In this context i say that theres three gods because all three are identified as god.But this maybe wrong so if it is clarify it.Ok just say yes or no that this question.  GOD consists of three divine persons, who are each identified as god but each of them is not a god.Together they are god?. YES or NO.

I don't think it would be correct to refer to the three persons of the Trinity as gods as this would intimate some form of autonomous independence and in addition would be on a par with referring to three separate, autonomous and independent individuals or people. However, all of this would not be an accurate representation of the Triunity which is manifested in a single will, operation and life. Furthermore, I don't think it would be accurate to refer to God as consisting of three divine persons but rather He exists as three divine persons who are equally God and individually God as they mutually interpenetrate one another in a community of being.

Offline theinformer

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Re: Trinity
« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2008, 03:29:42 AM »
It doesnt insinuate three seperate GODS, they are distinct persons, but not gods.It seems that you are misinterpreting this.If i worship three gods(divine persons). I worship the father,son of holy spirit who make GOD.When i refer to them as gods i mean that they are divine persons.
Your comments seem to imply that we should worship a divine essence and substance, we worship those who possess and share those things.God does consist of three persons who mutually indwell in one another and share the Homoousian.I think what you are saying is that it is wrong to refer to them as three gods but we should instead refer to them as divine-persons.In this context its the same thing."three persons in one god(essence)".I just found out that god is one being and that one being is called homoousian or essence.And we worship this essence through the persons of the godhead.It is impossible to worship three gods because there isnt three essences.So i think its probably best to refer to them as divine persons.

Offline buzuxi

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Re: Trinity
« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2008, 03:47:09 AM »
God is One. The single essence of the divinity originates within the Hypostasis of the Father. Or as the creed says, We believe in One God, the Father the Almighty.   Three Gods would imply three different essence, three divided and seperate natures.  When we say God the Son, or God the Holy Spirit, we say it with the belief that these 2 hypostasis are distinct from each other and from the Father, yet their source and origin derives from the one Hypostasis of the Father and share in His single essence.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2008, 03:49:45 AM by buzuxi »

Offline theinformer

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Re: Trinity
« Reply #25 on: May 13, 2008, 03:56:30 AM »
It makes sense now because i found out the "one being" and its Homoousian.Yea we acknowelge that each are distinct hypostases/personae/persons.Or they are each consubstantial with each other.It makes sense now.But what doesnt make sense is that heretics continue to accept that there religion is correct.Rude text removed.


Sorry, but we don't use that kind of language here.  Refrain from calling people stupid, and leave speculations about the Pope being "antichrist" for one of the polemical fora (i.e. the Private forums - PM FrChris for access). - Cleveland, Global Moderator
« Last Edit: May 13, 2008, 02:21:30 PM by cleveland »

Offline Papist

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Re: Trinity
« Reply #26 on: May 13, 2008, 10:58:06 AM »
It makes sense now because i found out the "one being" and its Homoousian.Yea we acknowelge that each are distinct hypostases/personae/persons.Or they are each consubstantial with each other.It makes sense now.But what doesnt make sense is that heretics continue to accept that there religion is correct.Rude text removed in the original post.
Wow.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2008, 02:21:54 PM by cleveland »
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Offline Heorhij

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Re: Trinity
« Reply #27 on: May 13, 2008, 12:34:47 PM »
My layman's 0.02 cents:

God indeed exists as three Divine Persons with one Divine "essence" (Greek "ousia").

Contrary to our human empiric idea that one person ("hypostasis") is necessarily a separate being, distinct from the being of any other person, - God is one Being in three distinct persons ("hypostases"). This means that while John, Jack, and Jill are three persons and three separate human beings, God is three Persons and yet one Divine Being. This also means that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not three separate gods, but One God.

The three Persons of one Divine Being eternally "dwell" within each other (if I am not mistaken, there is a Greek term for this, "perikhoresis" - right?). It means that not only their substance or "essence" (ousia) is the same, - their will, their actions in the world and in the human history are also principally the same. Some theologians compared this with a dance, performed by three people who tightly embrace each other and move in absolute, perfect unity.

On the other hand, there are fundamental, eternal distinctions between the three Divine Persons in that Father is the source, the "fountain" of the Two other. His Son, Logos, Christ is being eternally, extemporanously "born" or "begotten" from Him, and the Holy Spirit also eternally, extemporaneously "proceeds" from Him. We do not have any empiric analogies from this "birth" and for this "proceeding."

Now, I wrote this from memory and did not cheat looking at other more learned people's answers. Am I anywhere near? :)
« Last Edit: May 13, 2008, 12:35:10 PM by Heorhij »
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Offline prodromas

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Re: Trinity
« Reply #28 on: May 13, 2008, 08:49:17 PM »

Now, I wrote this from memory and did not cheat looking at other more learned people's answers. Am I anywhere near? :)


Heorhij if it was anyone else that said this I wouldn't believe them. It seems to be an excellent paraphrase of Bishop Kallistos Ware's book "The Orthodox Way" explaining the Trinity. :D
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Offline theinformer

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Re: Trinity
« Reply #29 on: May 14, 2008, 12:19:46 AM »
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not three separate gods, but One God.Its illogical to say that they are individual gods.To say that implies that there is three essences and this alters the notion of "one being".My favourite analogy, is siemise twins like someone mentioned before.They have two bodys(three divine persons) but share the one heart(essence and substance).

Offline Euthymios

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Re: Trinity
« Reply #30 on: May 15, 2008, 10:12:58 PM »
Do the math:  1+1+1=1.  IT's so simple!   ;)

Bad math. God never asked us to violate the laws of math and logic. Nor did He ask us to throw our brains away. 1+1+1= 3. God is not triplex. God is triune. Try 1X1X1= 1
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