OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 01, 2014, 08:23:56 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: St.Mary whipping boy Jesus?  (Read 4706 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
dhinuus
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 471



« on: May 03, 2008, 12:30:10 AM »

I was searching for Ethiopian Orthodox videos on youtube and came across the following video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVX21ECEcQw

In this video during the time stamp 00:48 to 00:60 an icon of St.Mary, the Theotokos whipping boy Jesus is depicted, with the caption Mary whipping boy Jesus for being bad. Is this really a real Ethiopian icon ?

While it is very natural to imagine a mother might have whipped her son to discipline him; wasn't Jesus sinless so what would have caused St.Mary to whip boy Jesus ? Is there anything from the holy tradition in the Ethiopian church that explains this icon ?

In Christ,
Mathew G m
Logged

NULL
Salpy
Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,560


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2008, 01:05:56 AM »

A tangent on the music in the video was split off and put here:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,16031.0.html
Logged

Amdetsion
Worship God with all thy strength and all thy might
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christianity
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Patriarchate; Addis Abebe Ethiopia
Posts: 931


HH Abuna Pawlos - Patriarch of Ethiopia


« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2008, 12:19:51 PM »

I was searching for Ethiopian Orthodox videos on youtube and came across the following video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVX21ECEcQw

In this video during the time stamp 00:48 to 00:60 an icon of St.Mary, the Theotokos whipping boy Jesus is depicted, with the caption Mary whipping boy Jesus for being bad. Is this really a real Ethiopian icon ?

While it is very natural to imagine a mother might have whipped her son to discipline him; wasn't Jesus sinless so what would have caused St.Mary to whip boy Jesus ? Is there anything from the holy tradition in the Ethiopian church that explains this icon ?

In Christ,
Mathew G m

The Icon in the video is not a whipping scene as the caption claimed. The icon is also not of Ethiopian tradition in that it does not adequate speak the truth of the Gosple. I have never seen this Icon before.

Various other Icons shown in the clip are also not Ethiopian Icons or 'orthodox' at all. Some were only copies of pictures brought by western missionaries in Ethiopia. There is an effort in Ethiopia to rid the churches of second and third hand copies of the picturesque "christ" and "virgin mary" images dumped into Ethiopia by western missions and repalce them with true Holy Orthodox Icons which will correctly dispaly the true Gosple teaching and Ethiopian tradition. Ethiopians only used these non-orthodox 2nd and 3rd hand "pictures" since it is hard to get a full Icon made when money is very minimal and means to at lease copy the the real Icons and use them is also difficult do the remoteness of many churches and lack of resources  in general.

God bless Ethiopia!
Logged

"ETHIOPIA shall soon stretch out her hands unto God".....Psalm 68:vs 31

"Are ye not as children of the ETHIOPIANS unto me, O children of Israel"?....Amos 9: vs 7
_Seraphim_
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Diocese of Western America (under His Grace Bishop Maxim)
Posts: 657


May Orthodoxy become our orthopraxis


WWW
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2008, 05:47:17 PM »

The Icon in the video is not a whipping scene as the caption claimed. The icon is also not of Ethiopian tradition in that it does not adequate speak the truth of the Gosple. I have never seen this Icon before.

Various other Icons shown in the clip are also not Ethiopian Icons or 'orthodox' at all. Some were only copies of pictures brought by western missionaries in Ethiopia. There is an effort in Ethiopia to rid the churches of second and third hand copies of the picturesque "christ" and "virgin mary" images dumped into Ethiopia by western missions and repalce them with true Holy Orthodox Icons which will correctly dispaly the true Gosple teaching and Ethiopian tradition. Ethiopians only used these non-orthodox 2nd and 3rd hand "pictures" since it is hard to get a full Icon made when money is very minimal and means to at lease copy the the real Icons and use them is also difficult do the remoteness of many churches and lack of resources  in general.

God bless Ethiopia!

And God bless you, Amdetsion, for helping us all to better understand Ethiopian Orthodoxy.  Smiley


As I said in my original post on this thread:

I came across this video about a year ago...

Thank you for helping to end my year-long confusion… and assuring me that this video is indeed inaccurate (at best). 

+The Lord be with you and the Ethiopian people.
Logged

"Disputes merely about words must not be suffered to divide those who think alike."
-St. Athanasius (†444)

Pray for Orthodox Unity

"Behold the light of our Agreed Statement on Christology"
http://www.orthodoxunity.org/state04.html
EkhristosAnesti
'I will say of the Lord, "He is my refuge and my fortress; My God, in Him I will trust."' - Psalm 91:2
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Posts: 2,743


Pope St Kyrillos VI


« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2008, 07:06:25 PM »

I vaguely recall reading an old Protestant polemic against the RC Church which made a point of the existence of an icon depicting the same scene in some RC Cathedral in Italy.

Maybe this icon represents the influence of RC missionaries in Ethiopia? Or maybe it is simply not an icon created or held by the Ethiopian Orthodox Church at all? As far as I know, the RC, and even the Baptist Church in Ethiopia do their best to replicate the Ethiopian Orthodox's traditions. I recall reading how the Baptists there have begun adopting traditional Ethiopian Orthodox liturgical vestments as a means to more effectively proselytise laity. So, whilst on its surface this may look like a traditional Ethiopian Orthodox icon it could quite possibly be an RC icon.

Btw, I realise that the author of the youtube video introduced his video with the title, "Paintings on the Ethiopian church's walls", but i'm not sure how to take that really given that the very first image presented is neither a painting nor something to be found on a wall.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2008, 07:06:45 PM by EkhristosAnesti » Logged

No longer an active member of this forum. Sincerest apologies to anyone who has taken offence to anything posted in youthful ignorance or negligence prior to my leaving this forum - October, 2012.

"Philosophy is the imitation by a man of what is better, according to what is possible" - St Severus
AmdeBirhan
Pillar of Light
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Christian
Jurisdiction: ArchDiocese Western Hemisphere
Posts: 22



« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2009, 08:17:10 PM »

Yeah I dont think the author knew much about the EOTC, but was trying to share his pictures of visiting Ethiopia...  which would expalin his lack of Ethiopian Music, and I might add that it shuld probably be the Ethiopian Church Music and not any Ethiopian Music...  and I am equally amazed at the Virgin Mary's breastfeeding Christ Yesus as being pictured holding a cord... I thikn it was an assumption on the authors part, and maybe on the artists part as well.
  OUr Meriegita has pointed out innacuracies depicted in icons, as far as tradition goes...

SElam, AMde
Logged

For the Word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing assunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.- HEB 4v12
Alveus Lacuna
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,860



« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2009, 09:49:25 PM »

As far as I know, the RC, and even the Baptist Church in Ethiopia do their best to replicate the Ethiopian Orthodox's traditions. I recall reading how the Baptists there have begun adopting traditional Ethiopian Orthodox liturgical vestments as a means to more effectively proselytize laity.

That just seems sneaky and wrong on a lot of levels.
Logged
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,467


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2009, 09:56:30 PM »

I vaguely recall reading an old Protestant polemic against the RC Church which made a point of the existence of an icon depicting the same scene in some RC Cathedral in Italy.


I'm sorry, but this sounds like a complete fabrication (not your recalling the polemic, but the polemic itself). 
Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
TinaG
I am not a pessimist - I'm just grimly realistic!
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 870


If only my family were this normal !


WWW
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2009, 01:10:26 AM »

Improbable and hokey as this icon sounds, am I not the only mother with rowdy boys that would like to think the Theotokos had to take Christ out of the Temple at least once or put him in a time out? 
Logged

On the spiritual path somewhere between the Simpsons and St. Theophan the Recluse, but I still can't see the Springfield city limits sign yet.
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,467


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2009, 10:19:10 AM »

Improbable and hokey as this icon sounds, am I not the only mother with rowdy boys that would like to think the Theotokos had to take Christ out of the Temple at least once or put him in a time out? 

IS OUTRAGE!  THE BABY JESUS WAS A SERENE CHILD WHO PROBABLY HAD TO TAKE HIS MOTHER OUT OF THE TEMPLE FOR A TIME OUT! Wink
Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
LBK
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,555


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2009, 10:33:56 AM »

IS OUTRAGE!  THE BABY JESUS WAS A SERENE CHILD WHO PROBABLY HAD TO TAKE HIS MOTHER OUT OF THE TEMPLE FOR A TIME OUT! Wink

There must be an award for Humorous Post of the Month! Thank you, Schultz!
Logged
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2009, 05:05:59 PM »

I don't see any real indication that the haloed figure on the left even is Jesus...
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
ChristusDominus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Latin Rite
Posts: 936


Saint Aloysius Gonzaga


« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2009, 08:37:14 PM »



. So, whilst on its surface this may look like a traditional Ethiopian Orthodox icon it could quite possibly be an RC icon.


I sincerely doubt it since it looks nothing like traditional RC art/iconography.
Logged

There is no more evident sign that anyone is a saint and of the number of the elect, than to see him leading a good life and at the same time a prey to desolation, suffering, and trials. - Saint Aloysius Gonzaga
_Seraphim_
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Diocese of Western America (under His Grace Bishop Maxim)
Posts: 657


May Orthodoxy become our orthopraxis


WWW
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2009, 08:47:18 PM »


. So, whilst on its surface this may look like a traditional Ethiopian Orthodox icon it could quite possibly be an RC icon.

I sincerely doubt it since it looks nothing like traditional RC art/iconography.


I assume you are not aware of the repeated attempts of Jesuits to infiltrate the Ethiopian Orthodox Faith since the 1500s.
Logged

"Disputes merely about words must not be suffered to divide those who think alike."
-St. Athanasius (†444)

Pray for Orthodox Unity

"Behold the light of our Agreed Statement on Christology"
http://www.orthodoxunity.org/state04.html
_Seraphim_
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Diocese of Western America (under His Grace Bishop Maxim)
Posts: 657


May Orthodoxy become our orthopraxis


WWW
« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2009, 08:57:01 PM »

Btw, I realise that the author of the youtube video introduced his video with the title, "Paintings on the Ethiopian church's walls", but i'm not sure how to take that really given that the very first image presented is neither a painting nor something to be found on a wall.


LOL!  laugh   Its been years since I've seen this video, and I never really noticed that fact until now.  Yeah, to start your "paintings on walls" slide-show with a photo of an open book laying on a horizontal surface isn't exactly the most intelligent thing to do.
Logged

"Disputes merely about words must not be suffered to divide those who think alike."
-St. Athanasius (†444)

Pray for Orthodox Unity

"Behold the light of our Agreed Statement on Christology"
http://www.orthodoxunity.org/state04.html
ChristusDominus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Latin Rite
Posts: 936


Saint Aloysius Gonzaga


« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2009, 11:31:16 PM »





I assume you are not aware of the repeated attempts of Jesuits to infiltrate the Ethiopian Orthodox Faith since the 1500s.
That is inconclusive unless you have proof that they are/were writing icons in the Ethiopian Orthodox style? I would assume they would have used their typical latin style Icons or statues. They would have latinized their icons/art. The Melkite Church is one good example of being latinized in the past. Here's a picture of a Melkite Church in the USA from the turn of the past century.Notice the heavy latinizations, although all this has been rectified, Thank God!

« Last Edit: May 19, 2009, 11:32:54 PM by ChristusDominus » Logged

There is no more evident sign that anyone is a saint and of the number of the elect, than to see him leading a good life and at the same time a prey to desolation, suffering, and trials. - Saint Aloysius Gonzaga
Tags: icons Ethiopian Orthodox Church OO icons 
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.075 seconds with 43 queries.