Author Topic: St.Mary whipping boy Jesus?  (Read 5219 times)

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Offline dhinuus

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St.Mary whipping boy Jesus?
« on: May 03, 2008, 12:30:10 AM »
I was searching for Ethiopian Orthodox videos on youtube and came across the following video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVX21ECEcQw

In this video during the time stamp 00:48 to 00:60 an icon of St.Mary, the Theotokos whipping boy Jesus is depicted, with the caption Mary whipping boy Jesus for being bad. Is this really a real Ethiopian icon ?

While it is very natural to imagine a mother might have whipped her son to discipline him; wasn't Jesus sinless so what would have caused St.Mary to whip boy Jesus ? Is there anything from the holy tradition in the Ethiopian church that explains this icon ?

In Christ,
Mathew G m
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Offline Salpy

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Re: St.Mary whipping boy Jesus?
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2008, 01:05:56 AM »
A tangent on the music in the video was split off and put here:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,16031.0.html

Offline Amdetsion

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Re: St.Mary whipping boy Jesus?
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2008, 12:19:51 PM »
I was searching for Ethiopian Orthodox videos on youtube and came across the following video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVX21ECEcQw

In this video during the time stamp 00:48 to 00:60 an icon of St.Mary, the Theotokos whipping boy Jesus is depicted, with the caption Mary whipping boy Jesus for being bad. Is this really a real Ethiopian icon ?

While it is very natural to imagine a mother might have whipped her son to discipline him; wasn't Jesus sinless so what would have caused St.Mary to whip boy Jesus ? Is there anything from the holy tradition in the Ethiopian church that explains this icon ?

In Christ,
Mathew G m

The Icon in the video is not a whipping scene as the caption claimed. The icon is also not of Ethiopian tradition in that it does not adequate speak the truth of the Gosple. I have never seen this Icon before.

Various other Icons shown in the clip are also not Ethiopian Icons or 'orthodox' at all. Some were only copies of pictures brought by western missionaries in Ethiopia. There is an effort in Ethiopia to rid the churches of second and third hand copies of the picturesque "christ" and "virgin mary" images dumped into Ethiopia by western missions and repalce them with true Holy Orthodox Icons which will correctly dispaly the true Gosple teaching and Ethiopian tradition. Ethiopians only used these non-orthodox 2nd and 3rd hand "pictures" since it is hard to get a full Icon made when money is very minimal and means to at lease copy the the real Icons and use them is also difficult do the remoteness of many churches and lack of resources  in general.

God bless Ethiopia!
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Offline _Seraphim_

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Re: St.Mary whipping boy Jesus?
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2008, 05:47:17 PM »
The Icon in the video is not a whipping scene as the caption claimed. The icon is also not of Ethiopian tradition in that it does not adequate speak the truth of the Gosple. I have never seen this Icon before.

Various other Icons shown in the clip are also not Ethiopian Icons or 'orthodox' at all. Some were only copies of pictures brought by western missionaries in Ethiopia. There is an effort in Ethiopia to rid the churches of second and third hand copies of the picturesque "christ" and "virgin mary" images dumped into Ethiopia by western missions and repalce them with true Holy Orthodox Icons which will correctly dispaly the true Gosple teaching and Ethiopian tradition. Ethiopians only used these non-orthodox 2nd and 3rd hand "pictures" since it is hard to get a full Icon made when money is very minimal and means to at lease copy the the real Icons and use them is also difficult do the remoteness of many churches and lack of resources  in general.

God bless Ethiopia!

And God bless you, Amdetsion, for helping us all to better understand Ethiopian Orthodoxy.  :)


As I said in my original post on this thread:

I came across this video about a year ago...

Thank you for helping to end my year-long confusion… and assuring me that this video is indeed inaccurate (at best). 

+The Lord be with you and the Ethiopian people.
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Offline EkhristosAnesti

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Re: St.Mary whipping boy Jesus?
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2008, 07:06:25 PM »
I vaguely recall reading an old Protestant polemic against the RC Church which made a point of the existence of an icon depicting the same scene in some RC Cathedral in Italy.

Maybe this icon represents the influence of RC missionaries in Ethiopia? Or maybe it is simply not an icon created or held by the Ethiopian Orthodox Church at all? As far as I know, the RC, and even the Baptist Church in Ethiopia do their best to replicate the Ethiopian Orthodox's traditions. I recall reading how the Baptists there have begun adopting traditional Ethiopian Orthodox liturgical vestments as a means to more effectively proselytise laity. So, whilst on its surface this may look like a traditional Ethiopian Orthodox icon it could quite possibly be an RC icon.

Btw, I realise that the author of the youtube video introduced his video with the title, "Paintings on the Ethiopian church's walls", but i'm not sure how to take that really given that the very first image presented is neither a painting nor something to be found on a wall.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2008, 07:06:45 PM by EkhristosAnesti »
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Offline AmdeBirhan

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Re: St.Mary whipping boy Jesus?
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2009, 08:17:10 PM »
Yeah I dont think the author knew much about the EOTC, but was trying to share his pictures of visiting Ethiopia...  which would expalin his lack of Ethiopian Music, and I might add that it shuld probably be the Ethiopian Church Music and not any Ethiopian Music...  and I am equally amazed at the Virgin Mary's breastfeeding Christ Yesus as being pictured holding a cord... I thikn it was an assumption on the authors part, and maybe on the artists part as well.
  OUr Meriegita has pointed out innacuracies depicted in icons, as far as tradition goes...

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Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: St.Mary whipping boy Jesus?
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2009, 09:49:25 PM »
As far as I know, the RC, and even the Baptist Church in Ethiopia do their best to replicate the Ethiopian Orthodox's traditions. I recall reading how the Baptists there have begun adopting traditional Ethiopian Orthodox liturgical vestments as a means to more effectively proselytize laity.

That just seems sneaky and wrong on a lot of levels.

Offline Schultz

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Re: St.Mary whipping boy Jesus?
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2009, 09:56:30 PM »
I vaguely recall reading an old Protestant polemic against the RC Church which made a point of the existence of an icon depicting the same scene in some RC Cathedral in Italy.


I'm sorry, but this sounds like a complete fabrication (not your recalling the polemic, but the polemic itself). 
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Offline TinaG

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Re: St.Mary whipping boy Jesus?
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2009, 01:10:26 AM »
Improbable and hokey as this icon sounds, am I not the only mother with rowdy boys that would like to think the Theotokos had to take Christ out of the Temple at least once or put him in a time out? 
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Offline Schultz

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Re: St.Mary whipping boy Jesus?
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2009, 10:19:10 AM »
Improbable and hokey as this icon sounds, am I not the only mother with rowdy boys that would like to think the Theotokos had to take Christ out of the Temple at least once or put him in a time out? 

IS OUTRAGE!  THE BABY JESUS WAS A SERENE CHILD WHO PROBABLY HAD TO TAKE HIS MOTHER OUT OF THE TEMPLE FOR A TIME OUT! ;)
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Offline LBK

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Re: St.Mary whipping boy Jesus?
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2009, 10:33:56 AM »
IS OUTRAGE!  THE BABY JESUS WAS A SERENE CHILD WHO PROBABLY HAD TO TAKE HIS MOTHER OUT OF THE TEMPLE FOR A TIME OUT! ;)

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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: St.Mary whipping boy Jesus?
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2009, 05:05:59 PM »
I don't see any real indication that the haloed figure on the left even is Jesus...
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Offline ChristusDominus

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Re: St.Mary whipping boy Jesus?
« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2009, 08:37:14 PM »


. So, whilst on its surface this may look like a traditional Ethiopian Orthodox icon it could quite possibly be an RC icon.


I sincerely doubt it since it looks nothing like traditional RC art/iconography.
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Offline _Seraphim_

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Re: St.Mary whipping boy Jesus?
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2009, 08:47:18 PM »

. So, whilst on its surface this may look like a traditional Ethiopian Orthodox icon it could quite possibly be an RC icon.

I sincerely doubt it since it looks nothing like traditional RC art/iconography.


I assume you are not aware of the repeated attempts of Jesuits to infiltrate the Ethiopian Orthodox Faith since the 1500s.
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Offline _Seraphim_

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Re: St.Mary whipping boy Jesus?
« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2009, 08:57:01 PM »
Btw, I realise that the author of the youtube video introduced his video with the title, "Paintings on the Ethiopian church's walls", but i'm not sure how to take that really given that the very first image presented is neither a painting nor something to be found on a wall.


LOL!  :laugh:   Its been years since I've seen this video, and I never really noticed that fact until now.  Yeah, to start your "paintings on walls" slide-show with a photo of an open book laying on a horizontal surface isn't exactly the most intelligent thing to do.
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Offline ChristusDominus

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Re: St.Mary whipping boy Jesus?
« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2009, 11:31:16 PM »




I assume you are not aware of the repeated attempts of Jesuits to infiltrate the Ethiopian Orthodox Faith since the 1500s.
That is inconclusive unless you have proof that they are/were writing icons in the Ethiopian Orthodox style? I would assume they would have used their typical latin style Icons or statues. They would have latinized their icons/art. The Melkite Church is one good example of being latinized in the past. Here's a picture of a Melkite Church in the USA from the turn of the past century.Notice the heavy latinizations, although all this has been rectified, Thank God!

« Last Edit: May 19, 2009, 11:32:54 PM by ChristusDominus »
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