Author Topic: Fasts to be shortened?  (Read 3914 times)

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Offline JustinianPrima

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Fasts to be shortened?
« on: May 02, 2008, 07:06:07 PM »
Christ is risen, truly He is risen!!!

I read in a Macedonian daily that at the next Pan-Orthodox Sobor Hierarchs will seek to shorten the Christmas and Apostles Fast. There was no source, no quotes, no nothing so it leads me to believe this was false.

Anyone else hear something to this effect?

Christ is in our midst!
« Last Edit: May 02, 2008, 07:42:45 PM by JustinianPrima »
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Offline Fr. George

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Re: Fasts to be shortened?
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2008, 07:37:42 PM »
Christ is risen, truly He is risen!!!

I read in a Macedonian daily that at the next Pan-Orthodox Sobor Hierarchs will seek to shorten the Christmas and Apostles Fast. There was no source, no quotes, no nothing so it leads me to believe this was false.

Anyone else hear something to this effect?

Christ is in our midsts! 

I've never heard anything of the sort.  It sounds like a quote that would be taken out-of-context from a hierarch or priest, or the opinion of one person as to what should be done that is now being stated as part of the agenda.
"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"
Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.

Offline Orual

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Re: Fasts to be shortened?
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2008, 07:53:40 PM »
Christ is risen, truly He is risen!!!

I read in a Macedonian daily that at the next Pan-Orthodox Sobor Hierarchs will seek to shorten the Christmas and Apostles Fast. There was no source, no quotes, no nothing so it leads me to believe this was false.

Anyone else hear something to this effect?

Christ is in our midst!

How the heck are they going to shorten a variable fast?

Poor Apostles... in some years their fast disappears altogether anyway.  :(
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Offline Basil 320

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Re: Fasts to be shortened?
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2008, 09:12:19 PM »
Don't worry about it.  They won't be convened any time soon.
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Offline Fr. George

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Re: Fasts to be shortened?
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2008, 09:31:32 PM »
Don't worry about it.  They won't be convened any time soon. 

You never know - we've had a number of pan-Orthdoox synods convened in the last 5 years (the two that come to mind are the ones convened to deal with Cyprus and Jerusalem).
"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"
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Re: Fasts to be shortened?
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2008, 10:32:37 PM »
Christ is risen, truly He is risen!!!

Truly He is Risen!

Quote
I read in a Macedonian daily that at the next Pan-Orthodox Sobor Hierarchs will seek to shorten the Christmas and Apostles Fast. There was no source, no quotes, no nothing so it leads me to believe this was false.

When you say "Macedonian daily", do you mean a Greek publication or a Former Yugoslav Republic of Vardarska publication? If the latter, the so called 'Macedonian Orthodox Church' is not in communion with any other Orthodox Church so anything said about Orthodoxy in general should be taken with a grain of salt.

John

Offline JustinianPrima

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Re: Fasts to be shortened?
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2008, 01:54:57 AM »
Quote
When you say "Macedonian daily", do you mean a Greek publication or a Former Yugoslav Republic of Vardarska publication? If the latter, the so called 'Macedonian Orthodox Church' is not in communion with any other Orthodox Church so anything said about Orthodoxy in general should be taken with a grain of salt.


Hi John -

Actually, a publication from Greece would be a Greek publication, whereas a Macedonian daily is a newspaper from Macedonia. I have never heard of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Vardarska, where is that?

I'm also a bit confused, what does an Orthodox Church in Macedonia ("in communion or otherwise") have to do with a newspaper publishing a possible erroneous story regarding our fasts being shortened?

Please, let's keep our eyes on the ball.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2008, 10:52:23 AM by JustinianPrima »
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Offline Basil 320

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Re: Fasts to be shortened?
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2008, 10:12:18 AM »
Despite my cynical attitude expressed in Reply #3, which is my true attitude, unfortunately; a Pre-Conciliar Commission, in preparation for the "planned" Great and Holy Council of the Orthodox Church, back in the 1980's, had convened on this topic.  My recollection is that they recommended no changes, probably because they couldn't reach a concensus.  My recollection is not clear.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2008, 10:14:29 AM by BTRAKAS »
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Offline Fr. George

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Re: Fasts to be shortened?
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2008, 10:21:17 AM »
Despite my cynical attitude expressed in Reply #3, which is my true attitude, unfortunately; a Pre-Conciliar Commission, in preparation for the "planned" Great and Holy Council of the Orthodox Church, back in the 1980's, had convened on this topic.  My recollection is that they recommended no changes, probably because they couldn't reach a concensus.  My recollection is not clear.

I'm sure if they recommended no changes to the fasting routine, they probably felt that there was no reason to change the fasting routine.
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Offline JustinianPrima

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Re: Fasts to be shortened?
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2008, 11:33:38 AM »
But, I guess, my question is why would our Bishops seek to shorten the fasts? Especially these fasts, they're not too long.
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Re: Fasts to be shortened?
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2008, 02:51:37 PM »
But, I guess, my question is why would our Bishops seek to shorten the fasts? Especially these fasts, they're not too long.
IMO, if our bishops have made no real concerted effort to shorten the fasts, then we have nothing to worry about, and your questions become mere "what if" inquiries.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2008, 02:51:48 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Basil 320

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Re: Fasts to be shortened?
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2008, 06:02:43 PM »
I would like the following comment to be understood within this perspective.  It is not for me to ever question the Traditions of the Church.  I believe we all must strive to attain the Orthodox standard, but admittedly, while I'm making annual progress, I do not cook and do not adhere to the guidelines as specified by the Church.  I am not asking the Church to accommodate my own lack of spiritual discipline.

However, my observation is that the overwhelming majority of the Faithfull, both the regular Church attendees and minimal attendees, do not observe the fasting spiritual exercises.  It is a terrible situation.  I know there are people who will reply by saying, not so true in their parish.  I believe those are real exception situations.

Therefore, without changing the general rules and practices, I think there should be somewhat of a reform, that would set some very basic and minimum standards set forth by the Church as a whole, just to get the Faithfull conscious of this spiritual exercise, who would hopefully, grow into the currently set forth standards.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2008, 06:12:18 PM by BTRAKAS »
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Offline Amdetsion

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Re: Fasts to be shortened?
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2008, 02:56:56 PM »
I pray to God that he has mercy on Hs Church and save it from the fall of many us to stand in the true faith and ancient holy tradition of our fathers.

I do not understand the need to formerly reform our orthodoxy just because most people do not care to follow anymore.

Many of of us orthodox may never see the kingdom of God. But that does not mean we should not remain penitant.

"ETHIOPIA shall soon stretch out her hands unto God".....Psalm 68:vs 31

"Are ye not as children of the ETHIOPIANS unto me, O children of Israel"?....Amos 9: vs 7

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Fasts to be shortened?
« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2008, 03:10:22 PM »
I pray to God that he has mercy on Hs Church and save it from the fall of many us to stand in the true faith and ancient holy tradition of our fathers.

I do not understand the need to formerly reform our orthodoxy just because most people do not care to follow anymore.

Many of of us orthodox may never see the kingdom of God. But that does not mean we should not remain penitant.



I agree.
"Reform"? That assumes something is wrong. In this case it's not the standards of the Church.
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Offline Sophie

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Re: Fasts to be shortened?
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2008, 03:19:29 PM »

Therefore, without changing the general rules and practices, I think there should be somewhat of a reform, that would set some very basic and minimum standards set forth by the Church as a whole, just to get the Faithfull conscious of this spiritual exercise, who would hopefully, grow into the currently set forth standards.

Without being an expert, I believe minimum standards HAVE BEEN set concerning fasts as I was able to see in the website of the Greel Archdiocese of America

http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article8125.asp

"The official regulation of fasting depends upon the synods of the Orthodox Church. The pace of life and circumstances of today require a change in the fasting observances of the Church. The suggested minimum fasting in duration and in foods which might be abstained by those who are weak in body is:

the first week of Lent and that of Holy Week;
one week before Christmas;
two days before Holy Apostles Day (June 29);
one day before the Transfiguration of Christ (August 6);
two days before the Repose of Theotokos (August 15);
Friday around the year;
one day before the Exaltation of the Cross (September 14).
During all fast periods those of sound health abstain from meat, fish and all dairy products is observed, except when fish is permitted. The use of vegetable oils is permitted during fast periods, although olive oil may be consumed only on Saturdays and Sundays of Lent. Imitation foods such as margarine and vegetable products of all kinds may be classified as fast foods. Some sea foods (shrimp, oyster, lobster, crab meat, octopus) invertebrate shellfish are considered permissible fast foods.) "

Now, I have also had personal experience with priests who will not accept any kind of oil during strict fasts, and priests who will not consider the same kind of fast for everyone.
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Offline romanianortho

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Re: Fasts to be shortened?
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2008, 09:28:09 AM »

Hi John -

Actually, a publication from Greece would be a Greek publication, whereas a Macedonian daily is a newspaper from Macedonia. I have never heard of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Vardarska, where is that?

I'm also a bit confused, what does an Orthodox Church in Macedonia ("in communion or otherwise") have to do with a newspaper publishing a possible erroneous story regarding our fasts being shortened?

Please, let's keep our eyes on the ball.

I think what is John saying is that tif this quote is coming form "masedonia" church it means nothing as they are not in ommunion with the rest of the orthodox world .

Ialso belive there are 2 masedonia-One in Greece and one in former Yugo ,am I right?

Offline JustinianPrima

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Re: Fasts to be shortened?
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2008, 11:29:36 AM »
I think what is John saying is that tif this quote is coming form "masedonia" church it means nothing as they are not in ommunion with the rest of the orthodox world .

Ialso belive there are 2 masedonia-One in Greece and one in former Yugo ,am I right?

Ok, this would be a legitimate question (I guess). The source wasn't the Church, it was a reporter, reporting on hearsay with no quotes or any proof of what was being written. This was my concern. But I guess after posting the qestion, it seems that there was perhaps a iodum of truth to it based upon the reaction to some on this form. Perhaps the fasts are an open question?? I hope not. But it's not for me to say or decide.

You're correct, but the Macedonian territory also spans into Bulgaria. So, technically, there are three pieces- all Macedonia. Unfotunately, there's a bit of some controversy over this. Too much if you ask me.
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Re: Fasts to be shortened?
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2008, 10:04:13 PM »
How the heck are they going to shorten a variable fast?

Poor Apostles... in some years their fast disappears altogether anyway.  :(

That's an easy fix.  Go back to the calendar the Orthodox Church as a whole used for nearly two millennia.  I know that's a charged issue, but half the Church begged the other half not to change in the first place.
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Offline JustinianPrima

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Re: Fasts to be shortened?
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2008, 11:17:00 PM »
That's an easy fix.  Go back to the calendar the Orthodox Church as a whole used for nearly two millennia.  I know that's a charged issue, but half the Church begged the other half not to change in the first place.

I agree wholeheartedly.
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Offline wynd

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Re: Fasts to be shortened?
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2008, 12:02:17 PM »
An Antiochian Orthodox once told me that in the Antiochian church, there is no fasting whatsoever from Pascha to Pentecost, or something along those lines. Can anyone confirm or deny that?

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Re: Fasts to be shortened?
« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2008, 12:23:46 PM »
In May of 1997, the Holy Synod of Antioch met and declared that the whole Paschaltide period is to be observed festally, thus balancing the lengthy fasting of Great Lent with an equal non-fasting period in celebration of the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. This is a return to ancient practice of the Church of Antioch for the Paschaltide andshould be viewed as the bringing into proper balance the period of penance found in Great Lent and the Festal Joy of Pascha.

This has been received with varying degrees of acceptance and condemnation by the Orthodox jurisdictions in the United States.  Many Antiochians continue to follow the fasting typika of the other jurisdictions and liken it to the monastic fasting which eschews meat even on days when meat is allowed to the rest of the church.  They accept continued fasting as a podvig or ascetic practice. Other Antiochians have embraced the Patriarchal Synod's declaration and observe the extending feasting period with joy and celebration.

IMHO,For the Synod, I think, the key point is that ---it is the return to an earlier established practice within Antioch before it was subjugated to Constantinople and had the Constaninopolitian typika imposed on them. Antioch is trying to reestablish its traditions as equally important as those of the other patriarchates.

Thomas
« Last Edit: May 07, 2008, 12:26:02 PM by Thomas »
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Re: Fasts to be shortened?
« Reply #21 on: May 07, 2008, 12:43:34 PM »
An Antiochian Orthodox once told me that in the Antiochian church, there is no fasting whatsoever from Pascha to Pentecost, or something along those lines. Can anyone confirm or deny that?

It's Pascha to Ascension, but yes, that's true.  Viva Antioch!  :)
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Re: Fasts to be shortened?
« Reply #22 on: May 07, 2008, 12:56:24 PM »
Our parish calendar has today marked as a fast day as well as the ecclesiastical calendar given out every year.
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Offline Thomas

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Re: Fasts to be shortened?
« Reply #23 on: May 07, 2008, 03:06:17 PM »
Many Antiochian Priests use Multi-jurisdictional calendars sent out by companies that use the GOA calendar as their basic parish calendar. Other priests do not want to confuse their members by differing typikas. As I noted there are some Antiochians who still follow the fasting calendar standard of every Wednesday and Friday fasts as a personal (perhaps parish) podvig.

Thomas
« Last Edit: May 07, 2008, 03:06:40 PM by Thomas »
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Offline JustinianPrima

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Re: Fasts to be shortened?
« Reply #24 on: May 07, 2008, 03:47:30 PM »
In May of 1997, the Holy Synod of Antioch met and declared that the whole Paschaltide period is to be observed festally, thus balancing the lengthy fasting of Great Lent with an equal non-fasting period in celebration of the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. This is a return to ancient practice of the Church of Antioch for the Paschaltide andshould be viewed as the bringing into proper balance the period of penance found in Great Lent and the Festal Joy of Pascha.

This has been received with varying degrees of acceptance and condemnation by the Orthodox jurisdictions in the United States.  Many Antiochians continue to follow the fasting typika of the other jurisdictions and liken it to the monastic fasting which eschews meat even on days when meat is allowed to the rest of the church.  They accept continued fasting as a podvig or ascetic practice. Other Antiochians have embraced the Patriarchal Synod's declaration and observe the extending feasting period with joy and celebration.

IMHO,For the Synod, I think, the key point is that ---it is the return to an earlier established practice within Antioch before it was subjugated to Constantinople and had the Constaninopolitian typika imposed on them. Antioch is trying to reestablish its traditions as equally important as those of the other patriarchates.

Thomas

The Fathers teach us that the fast is not truly or only about food, why is it then we place focus on food in order to 'festially' celebrate our Lord's Resurrection, or Paschaltide?  :)
« Last Edit: May 07, 2008, 03:49:01 PM by JustinianPrima »
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Re: Fasts to be shortened?
« Reply #25 on: May 07, 2008, 03:55:46 PM »
The Fathers teach us that the fast is not truly or only about food, why is it then we place focus on food in order to 'festially' celebrate our Lord's Resurrection, or Paschaltide?  :) 

While I agree in principle...

If Christmas falls on a Wednesday, then there are 4 days when we would normally fast (2 Wed and 2 Fri) which become non-fasting due to the Christmas feast.  However, for Pascha we only have 1 Wed and 1 Fri on which we don't fast.  Why?
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Offline ytterbiumanalyst

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Re: Fasts to be shortened?
« Reply #26 on: May 07, 2008, 04:25:47 PM »
^ Hey, the Antochians fast until Ascension. In this case, I think they have it right.
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Re: Fasts to be shortened?
« Reply #27 on: May 07, 2008, 04:42:11 PM »
^ Hey, the Antochians fast until Ascension. In this case, I think they have it right.

You mean they don't fast, no?
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Offline ytterbiumanalyst

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Re: Fasts to be shortened?
« Reply #28 on: May 08, 2008, 03:23:53 PM »
^ Yes, that is what I meant. :-\

Eight days to summer....
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Offline frost

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Re: Fasts to be shortened?
« Reply #29 on: May 10, 2008, 12:33:02 AM »
Christ Is Risen !

When I saw this post, I checked the 'Cathedral Messenger' newsletter from our St. George Cathedral (Antiochian) in Wichita. The calendar for the month of May, lists every Wednesday and Friday as a Fast Day. A separate notice titled " May Fasting" states:

" In May the typical fasting traditions are observed on Wednesdays and Fridays: abstain from meat, poultry and dairy products, although some observe an Antiochian custom of not fasting for the 40 days of Pascha."

Make of it what you will; but the typical fasting observance is called tradition; but the observance of not fasting is called a "custom".

As far as I know, the Antiochian parishes in this area (Diocese of Wichita) observe the ususal fasts except during Bright Week.

Best wishes,

Francis Frost

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Re: Fasts to be shortened?
« Reply #30 on: May 10, 2008, 11:16:26 PM »
Make of it what you will; but the typical fasting observance is called tradition; but the observance of not fasting is called a "custom".
Fasting is indeed part of Tradition.  How this discipline of fasting is meted out or enforced, however, is to some degree a pastoral issue that I believe the Antiochian Patriarchate has the authority to make for his flock.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2008, 11:16:45 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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