OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 25, 2014, 01:50:11 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: The Nature of Scripture  (Read 2456 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
DennyB
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 228


Moving Toward Orthodoxy


« on: April 30, 2008, 01:50:49 PM »

Over the years in my search for the truth of the Christian Faith,I realized that a major paradigm shift had occured in my understanding Both God and the Scriptures,and it mainly has to do with my views of Sacred Scripture,I realized that I tried to look at them as a "point-by-point" treatise on Christian Doctrine,but whatever doctrines I derived from them,were only there because I allowed my own preconceived notions,and biases influence what I was seeing,and if those changed,then so did the understanding of the text,but this over time became too subjective,human emotion,and reason became the deciding factor on what I embraced as "the Truth".  I then came to the conclusion that I had been viewing Scripture wrongly.


The Scriptures are a "Narrative" a collection of Stories. Justin Martyr calls them,especially the New Testament "Memiors of the Apostles". And should be viewed as such,and that their nature is primarily one of exhortation,admonition,or the rebuke of wrong teaching,and immorality,Once I saw this, then I realized that there had to be another context into which to view these various "memiors". There had to be a living tradition,a way of life,within a community, that these events could be rightly understood,and hence my journey towards Orthodoxy begins,and it is only in light of this,that we can rightly know what God has to say to each of us.
Logged
Heorhij
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA, for now, but my heart belongs to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Posts: 8,576



WWW
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2008, 08:12:00 PM »

Over the years in my search for the truth of the Christian Faith,I realized that a major paradigm shift had occured in my understanding Both God and the Scriptures,and it mainly has to do with my views of Sacred Scripture,I realized that I tried to look at them as a "point-by-point" treatise on Christian Doctrine,but whatever doctrines I derived from them,were only there because I allowed my own preconceived notions,and biases influence what I was seeing,and if those changed,then so did the understanding of the text,but this over time became too subjective,human emotion,and reason became the deciding factor on what I embraced as "the Truth".  I then came to the conclusion that I had been viewing Scripture wrongly.


The Scriptures are a "Narrative" a collection of Stories. Justin Martyr calls them,especially the New Testament "Memiors of the Apostles". And should be viewed as such,and that their nature is primarily one of exhortation,admonition,or the rebuke of wrong teaching,and immorality,Once I saw this, then I realized that there had to be another context into which to view these various "memiors". There had to be a living tradition,a way of life,within a community, that these events could be rightly understood,and hence my journey towards Orthodoxy begins,and it is only in light of this,that we can rightly know what God has to say to each of us.

Coming from a secular humanist background, I've been always like this. I don't take Scriptures as something necessarily factual. I don't even take the Gospels as "factual." I believe they convey the Truth, but there is a huge difference between Truth and "facts." It gives me a lot of pain to argue with people who, in line with the historically very new Evangelical Protestant tradition, say that "if something there is not true, then all of it can be not true." I just have a very different mentality, a very different world view. To me, the difference between TRUTH and petty "facts" is so basic, so "existential." But I am afraid I am (and possibly you are, too) in a tiny minority. Most people either jettison the Bible altogether, saying that it's a bunch of fairy tales for stupid folks who don't know how to live, or say that if you don't believe in the real talking snake in the real Garden of Eden, you aren't one of us, good Christians.
Logged

Love never fails.
ytterbiumanalyst
Professor Emeritus, CSA
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the Midwest
Posts: 8,790



« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2008, 08:17:00 PM »

Scripture points us to the Truth, Who is a Person. Yet Christ does not exist in the Bible, nor does He depend on the Bible to make Himself known. I've always found the Protestant idea that one has to know Scripture in order to know God quite arrogant, even when I was a Protestant. By making this claim, they are saying that only those who are literate can really know God. I know several Apostles who would beg to differ.
Logged

"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens
DennyB
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 228


Moving Toward Orthodoxy


« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2008, 09:55:37 PM »

Coming from a secular humanist background, I've been always like this. I don't take Scriptures as something necessarily factual. I don't even take the Gospels as "factual." I believe they convey the Truth, but there is a huge difference between Truth and "facts." It gives me a lot of pain to argue with people who, in line with the historically very new Evangelical Protestant tradition, say that "if something there is not true, then all of it can be not true." I just have a very different mentality, a very different world view. To me, the difference between TRUTH and petty "facts" is so basic, so "existential." But I am afraid I am (and possibly you are, too) in a tiny minority. Most people either jettison the Bible altogether, saying that it's a bunch of fairy tales for stupid folks who don't know how to live, or say that if you don't believe in the real talking snake in the real Garden of Eden, you aren't one of us, good Christians.

You make some very good points,On my journey I had some time within Presbyterianism,and studied a little bit of Karl Barth,this man had some amazing insight,it was in studying him that I was drawn closer to the True Word of God,which is Christ himself,our understanding of God is informed through His Very Person and work,and not so much through Scripture,that's not saying the Scriptures don't point us to Christ,I would say that Barth was going in the right direction He just didn't go far enough.
Logged
DennyB
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 228


Moving Toward Orthodoxy


« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2008, 09:56:18 PM »

Scripture points us to the Truth, Who is a Person. Yet Christ does not exist in the Bible, nor does He depend on the Bible to make Himself known. I've always found the Protestant idea that one has to know Scripture in order to know God quite arrogant, even when I was a Protestant. By making this claim, they are saying that only those who are literate can really know God. I know several Apostles who would beg to differ.

True Enough!!!
Logged
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,475


WWW
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2008, 03:03:38 AM »

True Enough!!!

Christ spoke to Moses in the Burning Bush and said that he was the God of Abraham, Issac & Jacob who is also the God of the living and not of the dead - how is Christ not present in the Bible when he is the part of the Trinity?
Logged
Heorhij
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA, for now, but my heart belongs to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Posts: 8,576



WWW
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2008, 10:30:27 AM »

You make some very good points,On my journey I had some time within Presbyterianism,and studied a little bit of Karl Barth,this man had some amazing insight,it was in studying him that I was drawn closer to the True Word of God,which is Christ himself,our understanding of God is informed through His Very Person and work,and not so much through Scripture,that's not saying the Scriptures don't point us to Christ,I would say that Barth was going in the right direction He just didn't go far enough.

Yes, Barth was amazing... He was a true poet of modern apophatic theology, a modern version of Pseudo-Dyonisius... "God can speak through a burning bush, or through a dead dog." Smiley Smiley Smiley
Logged

Love never fails.
ytterbiumanalyst
Professor Emeritus, CSA
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the Midwest
Posts: 8,790



« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2008, 04:34:49 PM »

Christ spoke to Moses in the Burning Bush and said that he was the God of Abraham, Issac & Jacob who is also the God of the living and not of the dead - how is Christ not present in the Bible when he is the part of the Trinity?
I'm sorry; upon reviewing my post, I can see that I was unclear. I did not mean that Christ is not present in the Bible; rather, I was refuting a Protestant idea called "inscripturation." According to this theory, after Christ ascended, he no longer exists in the flesh but rather in the pages of Scripture. To the adherents of this philosophy, Christ is no longer the Incarnate Word, but the Bible alone is the Word of God. The Bible has replaced the Incarnated Son of God as the way to the Father. Of course, Christ Himself in Scripture said, "No one comes to the Father except through Me." Therefore, the doctrine of inscripturation is a heresy, and a dangerous one at that.

Christ of course uses the Bible among many things to draw people to Himself. I myself found the Church by reading Scripture. But never would I say that Christ exists only in the Bible; He is, as He always has been, the Incarnate Word.
Logged

"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,475


WWW
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2008, 04:45:26 PM »

I'm sorry; upon reviewing my post, I can see that I was unclear. I did not mean that Christ is not present in the Bible; rather, I was refuting a Protestant idea called "inscripturation." According to this theory, after Christ ascended, he no longer exists in the flesh but rather in the pages of Scripture. To the adherents of this philosophy, Christ is no longer the Incarnate Word, but the Bible alone is the Word of God. The Bible has replaced the Incarnated Son of God as the way to the Father. Of course, Christ Himself in Scripture said, "No one comes to the Father except through Me." Therefore, the doctrine of inscripturation is a heresy, and a dangerous one at that.

Christ of course uses the Bible among many things to draw people to Himself. I myself found the Church by reading Scripture. But never would I say that Christ exists only in the Bible; He is, as He always has been, the Incarnate Word.

The Internet complicates clarity at times.  I apologize for not fully understanding what you were trying to convey.  Smiley
Logged
ytterbiumanalyst
Professor Emeritus, CSA
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the Midwest
Posts: 8,790



« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2008, 05:13:16 PM »

The burden is on the presenter. I apologize for not clearly communicating it.
Logged

"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens
DennyB
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 228


Moving Toward Orthodoxy


« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2008, 05:51:06 PM »

I'm sorry; upon reviewing my post, I can see that I was unclear. I did not mean that Christ is not present in the Bible; rather, I was refuting a Protestant idea called "inscripturation." According to this theory, after Christ ascended, he no longer exists in the flesh but rather in the pages of Scripture. To the adherents of this philosophy, Christ is no longer the Incarnate Word, but the Bible alone is the Word of God. The Bible has replaced the Incarnated Son of God as the way to the Father. Of course, Christ Himself in Scripture said, "No one comes to the Father except through Me." Therefore, the doctrine of inscripturation is a heresy, and a dangerous one at that.

Christ of course uses the Bible among many things to draw people to Himself. I myself found the Church by reading Scripture. But never would I say that Christ exists only in the Bible; He is, as He always has been, the Incarnate Word.

You know all to well!!! I once heard a popular Evangelical preacher say "We cannot know Jesus Christ APPART from the Bible",and I thought this guy is nuts!!! and this is the very thing you speak about!!
Logged
ytterbiumanalyst
Professor Emeritus, CSA
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the Midwest
Posts: 8,790



« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2008, 09:06:03 PM »

Well, really, most are only misinformed; they want to know God, but they do not know how to know Him. Others, however, are nuts, such as my professor who claimed the LXX was written in the 16th century A.D. as part of the Counter-Reformation. He believed in inscripturation.
Logged

"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,683


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2008, 10:47:57 PM »

Well, really, most are only misinformed; they want to know God, but they do not know how to know Him. Others, however, are nuts, such as my professor who claimed the LXX was written in the 16th century A.D. as part of the Counter-Reformation. He believed in inscripturation.
And this guy was granted a college teaching job? Shocked
Logged
ytterbiumanalyst
Professor Emeritus, CSA
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the Midwest
Posts: 8,790



« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2008, 09:24:56 AM »

I know. It seems the Assemblies of God allows any theology, no matter how self-contradicting, historically inaccurate, or just plain stupid, as long as it's anti-Catholic. Huh
« Last Edit: May 02, 2008, 09:25:30 AM by ytterbiumanalyst » Logged

"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2008, 09:48:30 AM »

I know. It seems the Assemblies of God allows any theology, no matter how self-contradicting, historically inaccurate, or just plain stupid, as long as it's anti-Catholic. Huh

Ain't that the truth!
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
Tags: Bible 
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.07 seconds with 43 queries.