OrthodoxChristianity.net
April 21, 2014, 11:01:33 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: The Rules page has been updated.  Please familiarize yourself with its contents!
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Things I wished I had known before visiting an Orthodox Liturgy  (Read 9270 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
trifecta
Fairly newly illumined
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 91



« on: April 29, 2008, 11:15:05 PM »

Frederica Matthewes-Green presents a good list of "12 things I wish I had known before visiting an Orthodox service."  It is a good list but not complete.  Please add new things you wished you had known.

1) How to kiss an icon.  A famous icon was brought to an Orthodox church near me.  Fortunately, for me,
I was not ready to venerate it at that time.  Why was this good?  I thought, since Orthodox kiss people on
the cheek, you would do the same with an icon, right?  Wrong!   I now know that icons are kissed on the
hands or feet (right?)

2) The candles are not free.   (I guessed that one, but it is still nice for a newcomer to know).

Please add to the list and maybe I'll learn something.


Logged

born Catholic, became a Protestant, now and hereafter an Orthodox Christian
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 30,413


EXTERMINATE!


« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2008, 11:32:25 PM »

1) How to kiss an icon.  A famous icon was brought to an Orthodox church near me.  Fortunately, for me,
I was not ready to venerate it at that time.  Why was this good?  I thought, since Orthodox kiss people on
the cheek, you would do the same with an icon, right?  Wrong!   I now know that icons are kissed on the
hands or feet (right?)
My understanding is that when the saint pictured in the icon has his hand stretched out as if to bless you, you kiss the outstretched hand.  Beyond that, I really don't know.
Logged
Entscheidungsproblem
Formerly Friul & Nebelpfade
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Machine God
Posts: 4,495



WWW
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2008, 12:07:06 AM »

My understanding is that when the saint pictured in the icon has his hand stretched out as if to bless you, you kiss the outstretched hand.  Beyond that, I really don't know.

Feet, hem and hands were always the areas I was taught (as RC and same as Orthodox).  Also the veil of the Theotokos, I believe.

3)  Throughout the Liturgy people will cross themselves, bow slightly, bow profoundly, and prostrate.  Do not feel pressured into doing everything right off the bat.  Just watch.  It will take some time to truly understand the Liturgy and feel comfortable with everything.  The profound bow & touching the floor and prostration, in particular, looked odd to me at first but eventually, they felt much more natural.
Logged

As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.
-- Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS
Orual
Orthodoxy = 7, not 3
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Sunday Morning Costume Parade
Posts: 883


I'm just here for the food.


« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2008, 04:00:23 PM »

One thing I wish I could amend in that pamphlet is the thing about when you walk in "nobody sits around waiting for the service to start, there's already service going on".  I walk into church all the time with people sitting around waiting for it to start.  It's true that sometimes there's a service already going on and it's good for a newcomer to know that they aren't necessarily late for Liturgy just because Stuff Is Going On, but the text as written was misleading to me when I was a newcomer myself.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2008, 04:01:10 PM by Orual » Logged

He spoke it as kindly and heartily as could be; as if a man dashed a gallon of cold water in your broth and never doubted you'd like it all the better. 

- C.S. Lewis, Till We Have Faces
f.k.a. Matron.a
alexp4uni
Site Supporter
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: kinda practicing theist
Jurisdiction: ecumenical kind
Posts: 329


« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2008, 05:26:34 PM »

Former Actor Christopher Orr who appeared in the movie Mighty Ducks has slightly put a twist on Frederica's to-do list. There is an explanation to each step but first interpret it on your own and compare it to the explanation on his site
 
Quote
1. Take a Long Time; or, Slow and Steady Wins the Race (cf. 1 Cor 9)
2. Catechumens Learn.
3. After your Baptism/Chrismation, Add Regular Confession and Communion to Thing #2.
4. The Grass is Never Greener; or, Never Know Too Many Priests.
5. Don't be a Weirdo.
6. Never Mind Them.
7. You Aren't a Monk, You Aren't a Priest, Get a Job.
8. No One has Messed Your Life up More Than You; or, No One Cares What You Think.
9. Don't Play House.
10. Don't Look Back; Don't Look Back in Anger.
11. Who Asked You?
12. Convert Without Ceasing.
Logged
Nyssa The Hobbit
Used to be OrthodoxFairyQueen
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian as of 1/10/09
Posts: 394



WWW
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2008, 06:45:41 PM »

Thing I wish I had known:

--The priest is a big Packer fan, so if there's a game on, the DL will start 10 minutes early.
Logged

Author of "Tojet" (fantasy) and "The Lighthouse" (Gothic), info available at my website URL.
GabrieltheCelt
Son of a Preacher man
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,971


Chasin' down a Hoodoo...


« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2008, 07:51:26 PM »

Thing I wish I had known:

--The priest is a big Packer fan, so if there's a game on, the DL will start 10 minutes early.

This is really, really sad.  Shame on us for letting these silly, frivolous things set the tone for the Holy Day.
Logged

"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying

"Yes, you are a white supremacist, ..."  ~Iconodule
ytterbiumanalyst
Professor Emeritus, CSA
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the Midwest
Posts: 8,790



« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2008, 07:56:02 PM »

^ Agreed. If the priest is more concerned about entertainment than the Eucharist, the parish will be too.
Logged

"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens
howdydave
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Detroit
Posts: 46


WWW
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2008, 07:22:14 PM »

You don't do any sort of prostrations on Sunday!

If somebody offers you a lift to church, Greeks have a different way of keeping time than I do. (Your best bet is to get a ride with the chanter.)

Don't eat any food for 2 days before your Chrismation (you will get more than your fill on that day after church!)
« Last Edit: May 03, 2008, 10:22:57 PM by howdydave » Logged

Dave

Recognition of the vastness of one's own ignorance
is the first step on the road to true wisdom!
BrotherAidan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,568

OC.net


« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2008, 10:59:52 PM »

Moderator, is alexp4 permitted to give the site address for the Christopher Orr quote?

If so, alexp4, please provide
Logged
Thomas
Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,711



« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2008, 09:06:19 AM »

A citation should always be provided when a quote is done.  It does not have to be from a website if one knows the original source. We encourage the use of citations as it helps the investigator to read the item in context whenever possible.

Thomas
Convert Issues Forum Moderator.
Logged

Your brother in Christ ,
Thomas
alexp4uni
Site Supporter
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: kinda practicing theist
Jurisdiction: ecumenical kind
Posts: 329


« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2008, 09:17:55 PM »

Moderator, is alexp4 permitted to give the site address for the Christopher Orr quote?

If so, alexp4, please provide

http://orrologion.blogspot.com/2007/01/guidelines-for-conversion.html
12 Things I Wish I'd Known as a Convert
Guidelines for Conversion to the Orthodox Faith

Guidelines for Conversion to the Orthodox Faith

1. Take a Long Time; or, Slow and Steady Wins the Race (cf. 1 Cor 9)

St. Basil the Great mandated a 3 year catechumenate prior to Baptism, and this at a time when people had an inner life and faith in either God or gods. This should be considered the rule, even if it is relaxed to 2 years. The life of an Orthodox Christian is a race: a marathon, not a sprint.

Conversion is like rehab. You can't skip to Step 12. Take your time and do it right, step by step.

However, remember that while you need to take your time, it is also 'later than you think'. Don't let patience become an excuse for sloth and light-mindedness. Move at a pace that is just a little bit uncomfortable for you; whether more/less slowly or more/less quickly, depends on the person. I have a proclivity to zealotry, so I needed to slow down. The 10-year, veteran catechumen could probably pick up the pace. God's time is not our time.

2. Catechumens Learn.

Catechumens are fer learnin' and learning the Orthodox faith takes many forms, all or most of which you should be using:

- a private prayer rule (morning and evening, minimally),
- fasting (to some degree according to the canons, per your confessor, not just from chocolate or ice cream),
- public prayer (Sunday morning, the Great Feasts, a few extra during the week, Lent, Holy Week, as you can),
- reading (everything with a grain of salt, not one author over all others, per your priest),
- the Beatitudes (practice Matthew 5: be a nice, good, honest, patient person, i.e., a Christian),
- give alms (give to the church and charities just a little beyond what you feel comfortable with).

Ask your parish priest/confessor what the right amount of each is for you: do no more and no less than what he gives you. If you want more, or are unable to do what he's given you, tell him.

Don't lower the bar to make yourself feel better. Not being able to fulfill your rule is a good way to learn humility and how spiritually weak you are. This is why the canons are always the canons, it is only out of pastoral condescension (economia) that you may be allowed leniency; the exception is never the rule.

3. After your Baptism/Chrismation, Add Regular Confession and Communion to Thing #2.

4. The Grass is Never Greener; or, Never Know Too Many Priests.

Stay put. Stability is not just for monks. Stay put in your jurisdiction, in your parish, with your confessor, with your wife/husband, in your profession and job, in your city except for real cause. Talk over any changes you think you might make with your wife/husband, parents, and priest and get their advice.

If your parish priest does not give you some guidelines (i.e., catechizes you) regarding prayer, fasting, the Sacraments, etc. on his own, ask for some. If he still doesn't give you any, you may choose another parish. You may make one move only, so make it count. If you start jumping around now, you'll never stop until you jump yourself right out of Orthodoxy, religion and/or sanity altogether.

In general, God gave you the priest and the parish you need. Other parishes and priests are good, too, but those parishes and priests are for other people. Your parish and your priest is right here. With your priest's blessing you can go to a monastery for a visit, one monastery and perhaps one convent - no more.

Obviously, there are situations that may require you to move for family reasons, work, due to natural disasters, etc. Do so. As a layman, to take the need for stability too literally and too dogmatically as a rule for all seasons is proof one is in need of learning the following, fifth Thing:

5. Don't be a Weirdo.

You just converted. You're neither a saint, a great ascetic nor a wise theologian; you probably aren't even meek, loving, patient, kind or long-suffering. You are a deluded idiot if you think you might be. Go to confession.

Those who grow long hair and a beard, start dressing like a babushka or a peasant, take 'Orthodox names' like Gleb, Panagiotis, Theophano, Despina or Barsanufius instead of the John, Michael, Margaret or Ann on their birth certificates are more likely to leave Orthodoxy. If your parents gave you a name at birth which also happens to be a saint's name, then that is your patron saint, he/she prayed you into the Orthodox Church and that is your 'saint's name' - keep it when you become Orthodox out of gratitude. The Orthodox Church is not an an Eastern European Renaissance Festival - don't treat it as 'dress up' and 'make believe'. You live in the 21st Century, whether you like it orn not, so until you join a monastery act like an Orthodox Christian of the 21st Century.

Hold conversations on topics other than the Orthodox Church, other churches, Byzantium, Russia, Greece, Islam, or liturgics; philosophy and politics should rarely be discussed unless you happen to be a politician or a professor of philosophy or political science. See movies, go out to eat, have a girlfriend/boyfriend, enjoy your wife/husband, freinds and kids, have hobbies, go to museums and the park, go to the gym and/or play a sport.

6. Never Mind Them.

This is my version of the Russian proverb, "Don't take your Typikon (rule) to another monastery". A similar, practical tip is "Keep your eyes on your own plate". As the late convert and schemahieromonk Fr. Seraphim Rose said regarding fasting: read ingredients labels for yourself, but not for your neighbor.

Something similar can be said regarding the whole of Orthodox life.

Orthodox Christians in America come from widely different backgrounds, and there are enough variations in the application of Tradition that you are bound to run into what you 'judge' as inconsistencies. If this is true in Old World countries with centuries of Christian history (which it is), it is even more true for Orthodox immigrants and converts trying to create an Orthodox life in what has often been un-Orthodox and/or un-Christian circumstances here in the US.

Listen to your priest in your parish and do what he says you should do. At the end of the day, the rule for all of us is "Don't ever sin. Practice all the virtues. Pray every moment of every day." Everything else is economia - a condescension to our weakness. Worry about yourself.

No one asks babies their opinion on international policy, astrophysics or the economy. You were only born on the day you were baptized/chrismated into the Orthodox faith. You grow at a spiritual rate similar to the physical growth a person maturing from infant to toddler to child to teenager, etc. So, keep your thoughts and opinions on liturgical rubrics, fasting, prayer, bishops, etc. to yourself until you're older.

Children are to be seen, not heard.

7. You Aren't a Monk, You Aren't a Priest, Get a Job.

The canons state that one newly received into the Church should not be quickly ordained. 6 months to a year is not a long time. 3 years isn't a long time. Never plan on becoming a priest or a monk. If God wants you He, He'll let you know. Your spiritual father (and your wife, girlfriend or lack of either) will help you recognize when God's letting you know He wants you. You will not recognize the signs on your own.

Do not 'suddenly' come back in a riassa (cassock) after visiting a monastery. Monasticism, like marriage, is for life. If you are planning on dying as a monk, there is plenty of time between now and then to become one. The same is true for visiting a seminary - don't 'suddenly' enroll.

The immature, ungrounded faith of a new convert quickly turns the priesthood, diaconate and monasticism into just a job - or worse, a costumed pose.

If you are or were a minister in another church body, do not expect to be ordained and do not make this a condition of your conversion. If you believe the Orthodox Church is the Church, then you will join Her. If you believe the Orthodox Church is the Church then do not convert because you want or need to be a priest/minister, are only trained to be a priest/minister as a profession and don't know how you'll pay the bills if you aren't. Convert. If God needs you, He is perfectly capable of getting you ordained. Until then, get a job. If He doesn't need you to serve at the altar, He'll help you get a regular job like the rest of us. People get jobs every single day. Most people don't 'use' their undergraduate or graduate degrees, anyway, so the fact that you have an MDiv or ThD is no excuse for not converting. I have a BFA in Acting and work as a corporate consultant along with a host of others that are over- or wrongly-educated. What's so special about you? we all share our own particular versions of the fear, pride, love of things and lack of faith. Come to think of it, Jesus and the disciples must have had a good chuckle about the lillies of the field and the birds of the air; it's just so unrealistic.

[Often related to this is the idea (excuse) that because your husband, wife and/or children will not convert and you 'can't lead them spiritually' or 'commune with them', then you cannot (will not; won't) convert. Ask yourself wether you really believe that the Orthodox Church is the Church, the Ark of Salvation outside of which there is no salvation? whether you think you know better than God and think Paul was only joking around in 1 Corinthians 7? why you don't believe that your own conversion and example as an Orthodox Christian isn't the way God is trying to save your family bringing them into true communion with His Body? Do you love your family and the world more than God? Perhaps Jesus was also joking around in Matthew 10:37.]

8. No One has Messed Your Life up More Than You; or, No One Cares What You Think.

The common denominator in all the bad, sinful and painful situations in your life is you. You wouldn't buy a used car with as bad a record as you, you wouldn't vote for a politician with as bad a record of choices and accomplishments as you, so if (when) you find yourself saying, "I think..." know you are wrong and check with someone else before continuing.

No one cares what you think, and neither should you.

9. Don't Play House.

If you are single, during the 6 months to a year after converting to Orthodoxy do not date that cute boy/girl in the parish, do not date every cute or semi-cute boy/girl in the parish, do not get into a serious relationship. These relationships are nothing more than 'playing house'. You are riding the emotional wave of a new and exciting experience and we, as citizens of an overly sexualized and spiritually atrophied culture take this as romance, 'love', etc. Getting into a relationship at this point in the coversion process is like having sex outside of marriage - it's fake. You will almost assuredly not stay together. You will then be tempted to leave the parish or Orthodoxy because you feel uncomfortable seeing them every Sunday, Great Feast, etc. You will also have ruined the possibility of a real relationship with that person at some point in the future once you are prepared for it.

On the upshot, if you disregard this rule and stay in the Church, you will have the opportunity to lament and repent of the silliness and sins you committed with that person. You will also be able to repent of the sins you led that person into during your 'passionate' and likely sinful romance.

Preserve the virginity you 'get back' in Baptism. The canons say a man must be a virgin, or he must be only once married as the virginal husband of a virgin to be ordained. The church may need you; keep yourself. There is no 'boys will be boys' canon in the Orthodox Church.

If you are married when you convert, stay as you are as the Apostle commands. Don't get too far ahead of the spouse you married before your conversion. Remember, it's you who are the Orthodox Christian not him/her; you are the one fasting, not him/her. Be a good, loving, patient, kind Orthodox Christian and perhaps your spouse will convert; act like a jerk and you will be responsible for their remaining outside of the Church. In fact, if you are an Orthodox Christian and your spouse is not, then it is your fault not his/hers so don't point fingers.


10. Don't Look Back; Don't Look Back in Anger.

Your reception into the Orthodox Church is a mystical marriage: don't cheat on your wife.

Do not go back to the church you grew up in or later joined. Do not be like Lot's wife in the Old Testament who looked back at her life in Sodom after she was saved. Do not receive the sacraments in other churches.

You cannot hate what brought you to the Church or you will hate yourself right out of the Church. Convert to Orthodoxy, do not convert from something else. Be thankful for all the good you had, and for the fullness of good you have found. Leave the critique and analysis of 'heterodox' churches to others - your supposed expertise is not needed and offering your two cents will do nothing but hurt you.

11. Who Asked You?

Only after 3 years may you consider sharing your conversion story in a public way, and then only if someone asks you for it. Get permission from your priest first. There is nothing especially special about your conversion except that it happened to you. There is nothing more special about you and your conversion story that isn't special about someone else's. God brought you to the Church without your conversion story, He can bring others to the Church without your conversion story, too. It's one thing to have an answer regarding the hop you have and how you got where you are, it's another thing to have an answer to the question unasked.

12. Convert Without Ceasing.

Converts, Cradle Orthodox and 'Retread' have to choose to be Orthodox Christians every moment, every day. Priests choose to be priests every day, monks choose monasticism every day. These are conversions. Choose to pray in the morning and evening, choose to fast, choose to be kind and loving and patient, choose to return good for evil, choose to attend services, choose to be diligent at work, choose to be a good and loving husband/wife, mother/father, sibling/child. Convert ceaselessly.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2008, 10:13:03 PM by alexp4uni » Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2008, 09:28:02 PM »

http://orrologion.blogspot.com/2007/01/guidelines-for-conversion.html
12 Things I Wish I'd Known as a Convert
Guidelines for Conversion to the Orthodox Faith
Thanks for that, I found it a great read!
The author gives sensible, sane, down-to-earth advice here, and No. 12 is a good reminder to us all, "cradle", "convert" or "retread".
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
prodromas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Under the Green Pope
Posts: 1,239

Greek Orthodox


« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2008, 09:43:21 PM »

Thanks for that, I found it a great read!
The author gives sensible, sane, down-to-earth advice here, and No. 12 is a good reminder to us all, "cradle", "convert" or "retread".

Not that George needs someone to second his statement but I really needed to hear that advice.
Logged

The sins I don't commit are largely due to the weakness of my limbs.

1915-1923 Հայոց Ցեղասպանութիւն ,never again,
ܩܛܠܐ ܕܥܡܐ ܐܬܘܪܝܐ 1920-1914, never again,
השואה  1933-1945, never again,
(1914-1923) Ελληνική Γενοκτονία, never again
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.079 seconds with 41 queries.