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Author Topic: Excommunications of Ben Lomond  (Read 11859 times) Average Rating: 0
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Tamara
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« Reply #45 on: April 30, 2008, 11:48:40 PM »

IIRC, Metropolitan PHILIP has repeatedly said that he does not at all regret receiving the Evangelical Orthodox.

Except for the Ben Lomond incident, the former EOC parishes have been a fruitful blessing for our archdiocese.
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« Reply #46 on: May 01, 2008, 01:04:33 AM »

Actually, never.

....and buzuxi, why would he (ozgeorge) - he's in Austrailia!  Why would he have any stake or care in the matter?
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« Reply #47 on: May 01, 2008, 10:55:41 AM »

I don't know anything about Fr. David but I was told he is now either Byzantine Catholic or Roman Catholic. Do you know if that is true?

As I recall, he was raised Byzantine Catholic. His lectures to inquirers and catechumens still available on tape is simply the best exposition of the Orthodox faith that I have ever heard. Many of my brothers and sisters in Christ who are smarter and better educated than I agree. Even his explanation of the schism between Rome and the Orthodox Church is excellent and does not equivocate. It was shocking that he went back to Rome, but I guess he had no other choice.

I have questions about the wisdom of any jurisdiction who would throw such a man out.
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« Reply #48 on: May 01, 2008, 11:09:10 AM »

...
I have questions about the wisdom of any jurisdiction who would throw such a man out.

He may have been right, but he was disobedient at the time.
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« Reply #49 on: May 01, 2008, 11:23:22 AM »

Were the Old Believer's disobedient, or were they in retrospect justified in their resistance to the Nikonian reforms?

I realize that is not directly related to the discussion, but in a respect I think it is.  When is obedience an obligation, and when is disobedience justified?
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« Reply #50 on: May 01, 2008, 11:29:04 AM »

Were the Old Believer's disobedient, or were they in retrospect justified in their resistance to the Nikonian reforms?

I realize that is not directly related to the discussion, but in a respect I think it is.  When is obedience an obligation, and when is disobedience justified?

Theoretically disobedience is only justified in response to heresy.  Some of the monastic fathers even go so far as to state that obedience to committing what would otherwise be considered a sinful act (i.e. breaking the fast, etc.) is ok (for the culpability for the act lies with the one giving the order), as long as it isn't heresy.  Canonically, heresy is the only reason to split with one's hierarch (last I remember - it's been 2-3 years since Canon Law class).
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« Reply #51 on: May 01, 2008, 11:34:00 AM »

Were the Old Believer's disobedient, or were they in retrospect justified in their resistance to the Nikonian reforms?

I realize that is not directly related to the discussion, but in a respect I think it is.  When is obedience an obligation, and when is disobedience justified?

AMM,

Bishop Joseph had ALL of his parishes change their liturgics to match the Antiochian rubrics. All of us needed to be aligned as part of our evolution into a full diocese. The Ben Lomond folks were not a special case which could ignore the Bishop's rule. Fr. David Barr, our archdiocese liturgical expert, was sent out here to assist all the churches. He helped my priest after Fr. Seraphim Bell left the archdiocese. Even the ethnic parishes needed to become aligned. No church was allowed to do their own thing. It is the bishop's job to bring good order.
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« Reply #52 on: May 01, 2008, 11:37:34 AM »

There can be no variation in rubrics within a single jurisdiction?
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Tamara
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« Reply #53 on: May 01, 2008, 11:41:32 AM »

There can be no variation in rubrics within a single jurisdiction?

I would imagine the only ones who would be exempt would be western rite parishes but then they would also need to follow the same western rite liturgical rubrics.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2008, 11:42:20 AM by Tamara » Logged
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« Reply #54 on: May 01, 2008, 12:00:28 PM »

There can be no variation in rubrics within a single jurisdiction?

It depends on the opinion of the bishops and the synod of the region.  If the bishops want to allow the parishes to have a bit of variation (say, for example, allowing the use of certain Russian-style chants in an Antiochian or Greek parish, varying the practice of saying communion prayers together/not together, etc.) then they can; if they don't want to allow that, then they shouldn't vary against the wishes of the Bishop.

I'd invite any and every parish that wishes to change something to dialogue with their Bishop - the worst thing to do is adopt the "it's easier to ask for forgiveness instead of permission" stance.
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« Reply #55 on: May 01, 2008, 12:05:51 PM »

I would imagine the only ones who would be exempt would be western rite parishes but then they would also need to follow the same western rite liturgical rubrics.

Doesn't the WR have two typikons or liturgies that each parish can choose from?  I guess I would have to know more about why uniformity was so important in this case in order to make a judgment.  I would also be interested to know if Frs. Hardenbrook and Anderson went on to display a pattern of disobedience.

I know uniformity has come up in other realms as well.  When Metropolitan Herman was bishop of Eastern PA for instance all parishes had to standardize on the New Calendar.  I'm sure this was done for reasons of uniformity.  Several parishes of course left, and in my opinion were quite justified in doing so.  I suppose it is correct to say they were not obedient though.
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« Reply #56 on: May 01, 2008, 01:43:03 PM »

Several parishes of course left, and in my opinion were quite justified in doing so.  I suppose it is correct to say they were not obedient though.
Even then, the acceptable course of action in our multijurisdictional society is to petition for transfer to another jurisdiction, not to just tell the bishop to "stuff it", as many accused the Ben Lomond leadership of doing.
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« Reply #57 on: May 01, 2008, 02:09:08 PM »

Even then, the acceptable course of action in our multijurisdictional society is to petition for transfer to another jurisdiction, not to just tell the bishop to "stuff it", as many accused the Ben Lomond leadership of doing.

Yes, but even then, it is an individual basis thing - not the whole (or most) of the parish just telling the bishop, "We're leaving and going to (fill in some other jurisdiction)."

TAN:  I think the Placerville parish WAS able to do this - they were Antiochian and the priest (who I think reposed recently) from Ben Lomond.  Anyone know this seemed to happen w/o controversy?
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« Reply #58 on: May 01, 2008, 02:14:32 PM »

Doesn't the WR have two typikons or liturgies that each parish can choose from?  I guess I would have to know more about why uniformity was so important in this case in order to make a judgment.  I would also be interested to know if Frs. Hardenbrook and Anderson went on to display a pattern of disobedience.

I know uniformity has come up in other realms as well.  When Metropolitan Herman was bishop of Eastern PA for instance all parishes had to standardize on the New Calendar.  I'm sure this was done for reasons of uniformity.  Several parishes of course left, and in my opinion were quite justified in doing so.  I suppose it is correct to say they were not obedient though.

Uniformity is defined by the bishop. If he wants to grant two typikons for western rite usage then he can do so. The idea is that each parish cannot do their own thing otherwise we end up with 80 different versions of the same Divine Liturgy. Anyway, the bishop does allow for small differences but the ones I have seen are minor. For example: at the ethnic parish I grew up in, the priest and the laity say the final prayer at the end of the DL together "O Lord, who blessed those who bless thee... " In my parish we do not say this prayer together but we do kiss one another after the priest says,"Let us love one another with one accord we may confess..."
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« Reply #59 on: May 01, 2008, 03:30:21 PM »

Quote
Uniformity is defined by the bishop. If he wants to grant two typikons for western rite usage then he can do so. The idea is that each parish cannot do their own thing otherwise we end up with 80 different versions of the same Divine Liturgy.

I don't know enough about this situation to know why the bishops allow variance in the WR Rite but would not in this parish.  I doubt it would lead to 80 variations, but that's just a guess.
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« Reply #60 on: May 01, 2008, 06:03:14 PM »

I don't know enough about this situation to know why the bishops allow variance in the WR Rite but would not in this parish.  I doubt it would lead to 80 variations, but that's just a guess.

They let the Western Riters pick between an Anglican liturgy and a Tridentine liturgy.  They don't let them make liturgical equivalents of Frankenstein's monster from whatever strikes their fancy.
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« Reply #61 on: May 01, 2008, 06:05:30 PM »

Is that what was happening at Ben Lomond?
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Tamara
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« Reply #62 on: May 01, 2008, 06:12:33 PM »

I don't know enough about this situation to know why the bishops allow variance in the WR Rite but would not in this parish.  I doubt it would lead to 80 variations, but that's just a guess.

What I meant was, we have 55 parishes in our diocese and if each one was allowed to do whatever they wanted to do liturgically we would have chaos. Our bishop is here to bring order and unity.
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« Reply #63 on: May 01, 2008, 06:19:22 PM »

Is that what was happening at Ben Lomond?

Yeah, they referred to their bishop's insistence on Antiochian liturgics and music as "phyletism".

An Antiochian parish is not wrong for using Russian music or whatever as long as the bishop is okay with it - Russian music is often easier for choir members who aren't necessarily very musically oriented.  However, Ben Lomond was provided with abundant Antiochian music including simple varieties, and there was no practical reason not to use it, they apparently just didn't feel like it.
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« Reply #64 on: May 01, 2008, 06:21:49 PM »

Is that what was happening at Ben Lomond?

Uhhh, no.  This WR stuff is a tan - Ben Lomond was Byz Rite.  Liturgical issues were mainly about music, with some rubrical changes.  There were many issues small and large, that weren't handled well by the hierarchs (see Tamara's post a few back) and then the clergy were deluded in how a parish should be, wanting to maintain their tight (rather cult-like) control -> resulting disaster and tragedy.

This is pretty much water under the bridge though, with the main unresolved issues just being the general ecclesiastical limbo of the JP parishes in the US and the 30+ crowd at both of the BL parishes needing to get over themselves (and each other).  Fortunately, it seems to me that the under 30 crowd pretty much has.  
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« Reply #65 on: May 01, 2008, 06:48:10 PM »

Quote
Yeah, they referred to their bishop's insistence on Antiochian liturgics and music as "phyletism".

Where?  I didn't see that.

Quote
Uhhh, no.  This WR stuff is a tan - Ben Lomond was Byz Rite.

I understand that.  My question was to the latter part of the statement, whether the Ben Lomond parish was a creating a "Frankenliturgy" of sorts.  Were they doing that or simply seeking to use an alternate set of rubrics, including as I read it, daily services which sadly most Orthodox parishes lack.

I guess when I look at this I'm trying to judge the harshness of the response.  Priests were removed from office.  People left Orthodoxy.  I hope the manner of dealing with this situation was worth the results.
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« Reply #66 on: May 01, 2008, 06:52:13 PM »

...

I guess when I look at this I'm trying to judge the harshness of the response.  Priests were removed from office.  People left Orthodoxy.  I hope the manner of dealing with this situation was worth the results.

Well, yes.  But this was 10 years ago now.  Unless some official documentary or whatever comes out, YOU don't really need to judge anything.  It's ok...just give it a rest.  Smiley
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« Reply #67 on: May 01, 2008, 06:55:07 PM »

Unless some official documentary or whatever comes out, YOU don't really need to judge anything.  It's ok...just give it a rest.  Smiley

Thank you Elisha.
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« Reply #68 on: May 07, 2008, 11:21:40 AM »

As for the other comment---it was a serious one. Consistency is a good thing. It is somewhat ironic to act insulted at some Evangelical Protestants' view that Russian Orthodox are not real Christians when many RO have the same view of the Evangelical Protestants. I have no idea why you see this point I made as being an attack on the Orthodox Church Herself.

If you want to make this point, then please make it in the relevant thread where it can be discussed.
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« Reply #69 on: May 26, 2008, 01:16:54 AM »

Quote
I read his account and I know the other side's account. Especially in regard to the priest, Fr. Seraphim Bell, who was his friend and protege. Fr. Seraphim Bell did ALOT of spiritual damage while he was a priest in our archdiocese. He went on to the OCA and left it after a few years, he then joined the GOA and had problems with their hierarchy after a few years and last I heard he had moved on to the ROCOR. If John Hardenbrook mentored Fr. Seraphim then I think we can see a clear pattern of teaching disobedience to hierarchical authority. John speaks about how our parish was decimated after Fr. Seraphim left. Nothing could be further from the truth. Our parish THRIVED with his leaving...his ability to control the parishioners through confession by fear was gone. His account show signs of paranoia, ego, and delusion. Sad.
 

This to me is very frightening.  How could this man go from jurisdiction to jurisdiction?  Doing all this damage.
Somewhere along the line, he should have been given a psychological assessment.
But no, he just took his problems to another jurisdiction.
"Confession by fear"?  Where is "perfect Love" that casts out fear?
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« Reply #70 on: April 25, 2010, 06:07:04 PM »

I was taught in seminary that:

First you are suspended
Then you are deposed
Then you are excommunicated (as a layman)
Then you are anathematized

You cannot be given more than one punishment per offense, but Cleveland presents an interesting possibility, of a clergyman receiving punishments for multiple offenses.

Suspension is not excommunication though as a suspended priest is allowed to receive communion in the altar with the other clergy. To suspend a clergyman and tell him not to commune would theoretically be a violation of the order of discipline.

The clergy that were received into the JP had not been baptized on reception into Orthodoxy* and furthermore their ordinations were done simultaneously at the same liturgy (i.e. more than one man raised to the same rank at the same liturgy) which is uncanonical (even SVS faculty wrote against this) back in 1987 (the practice continues from time to time today btw).  So the  JP basically said, "you aren't really Orthodox priests" and baptized them I believe (someone correct me if my facts are wrong) and then ordained them.  It certainly looks suspect, like they were using this as a backdoor way to get reinstated as priests, but, it is entirely possible that they were concerned about this all along and what happened with the Antiochians was a catalyst.  I don't want to judge what they were doing. We also don't know what the Antiochians were doing, although the public acts were strange (deposing a priest "until he repents"--but again, do we know that is what was meant? was it a typo? is the document on the internet legit? these are the types of questions we should wonder).

At any rate, it's been a long time and ultimately these people have to answer to God and not us. However, the question in its theoretical sense is certainly interesting.

Deacon Anastasios

(* I am not starting an argument on reception but pointing out that this argument figured into the public discussion of the topic that I saw years back on the net).
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Dear Father Anastasios.

On another thread we are trying to locate the canons against multiple ordinations.  I see from the message above (from what I have bolded in red that you know of them.  Father, would you please share them with us.  Quite a few of us would be keen to see them.

Fr Ambrose
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« Reply #71 on: April 25, 2010, 06:15:37 PM »

Indeed He has Risen, and so has this thread!
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« Reply #72 on: April 25, 2010, 06:40:05 PM »

Indeed He has Risen, and so has this thread!

The Forum has a preference to resurrect threads.   It's one reason why the Indulgences thread has been running about 4 years - several resurrections!   laugh
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« Reply #73 on: September 17, 2011, 04:25:22 PM »

To be rather off-topic, there does not exist any canon which prohibits ordinations of multiple men at one time to a given order.

To be on-topic, Fr. John Anderson was mentioned. As I heard it, which is very sad, he saw the looming split between the parish and the hierarchy, and did everything he could to avoid getting caught in the middle. He begged prior to the impending clash to be released to go help his elderly mother, who really needed assistance, but this request was denied. He tried to avoid getting punished with the rest, but it was impossible and he was uncanonically punished with all the rest. Doubtless this anti-canonical injustice is what spurred him to take the even more uncanonical and indeed non-Christian action, of apostasising from the faith of Christ and the apostles.

I don't think either 'side' was "pure as the driven snow."
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« Reply #74 on: October 07, 2011, 11:22:45 AM »

And we still see priests jumping around in 2011 from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.  Fr. Joe Fester of the OCA come to mind in 2011 but i am sure there are more out there.
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« Reply #75 on: October 11, 2011, 02:21:33 PM »

Oops, I meant Fr. DAVID Anderson.
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