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Seamus
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St. James


« on: April 30, 2008, 03:56:42 AM »

For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 1 Timothy 2:13-14


I thought both, Adam and Eve were deceived in the Grarden. I mean, they both ate of the forbidden fruit.


"...and thy desire shall be for thy husbad, and he shall rule over you." Genesis 3:16. If God made this the way it is now, how was it in the Garden? Did Eve rule over Adam?


A little side note: Some people think the Original Sin was fornication. What is the Church's teaching on this?
Thanks & God Bless
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Come, let us wonder at the virgin most pure, wondrous in herself, unique in creation, she gave birth, yet knew no man; her pure soul with wonder was filled, daily her mind gave praise in joy at the twofold wonder: her virginity preserved, her child most dear. Blessed is He who shone forth from her!
PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2008, 04:03:47 AM »

A little side note: Some people think the Original Sin was fornication. What is the Church's teaching on this?
How in the world could fornication be the original sin of Adam and Eve, considering that they were deemed man and wife even before they fell?  (Genesis 2:25)  Fornication is just not a sin a man and his wife commit with each other.
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Seamus
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St. James


« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2008, 04:26:14 AM »

How in the world could fornication be the original sin of Adam and Eve, considering that they were deemed man and wife even before they fell?  (Genesis 2:25)  Fornication is just not a sin a man and his wife commit with each other.


I know. There's some weird teachings out there. I was just reading something about the verses I posted above, and it said that Eve lost her virginity to the serpant, and that was the forbidden "fruit". I don't believe it, but that's what it said.
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Come, let us wonder at the virgin most pure, wondrous in herself, unique in creation, she gave birth, yet knew no man; her pure soul with wonder was filled, daily her mind gave praise in joy at the twofold wonder: her virginity preserved, her child most dear. Blessed is He who shone forth from her!
Heorhij
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« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2008, 07:24:18 AM »

For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 1 Timothy 2:13-14


I thought both, Adam and Eve were deceived in the Grarden. I mean, they both ate of the forbidden fruit.


"...and thy desire shall be for thy husbad, and he shall rule over you." Genesis 3:16. If God made this the way it is now, how was it in the Garden? Did Eve rule over Adam?


A little side note: Some people think the Original Sin was fornication. What is the Church's teaching on this?
Thanks & God Bless

As far as I understand, there are gazillions of different interpretations of these verses. Old monastic Fathers theorized that humans were not "meant" to reproduce sexually, that in the Garden of Eden their bodies were "light," ethereal, closer to bodies of angels, etc. I have exactly zero belief in any of that; I read Genesis as an allegory, a fictional story telling me a great moral lesson about me, i.e. that *I* was created with the potential of unlimited growth in my love for God and all His creation, that *I* received the task to bring all creation to God (see Gen. 2:19), and that *I* failed that task because *I* sinned. And now *I* am in the Church, which is the body of risen Christ, and I am being risen with Him to heavenly glory. In short, there is a well-known "palindrome" (a sentence that can be read left-to-right or right-to-left): "Madam, I'm Adam." That's my understanding of Genesis. Smiley 
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RLNM
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« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2008, 08:04:20 AM »

I've not heard this discussed at church before, but I personally lean toward a more symbolic or representative meaning of Genesis rather than a die-hard, straight-out literal interpretation. After all, I do firmly believe in evolution, but as to what is the exact specifics of the real happenings being explained in Genisis- I dunno. Huh Huh

I'm pretty much content to leave it fuzzy, and plan to ask that and a million other questions when I meet Jesus. (if I am still interested in the answers laugh)
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Heorhij
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« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2008, 10:53:09 AM »

I've not heard this discussed at church before, but I personally lean toward a more symbolic or representative meaning of Genesis rather than a die-hard, straight-out literal interpretation. After all, I do firmly believe in evolution, but as to what is the exact specifics of the real happenings being explained in Genisis- I dunno. Huh Huh

I'm pretty much content to leave it fuzzy, and plan to ask that and a million other questions when I meet Jesus. (if I am still interested in the answers laugh)

Same here. Thanks, RLNM. Good to know that I am not alone. Smiley
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« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2008, 09:57:35 AM »

My understanding, and it could be interlaced with my protestant former wiring so YMMV, is that Eve was tempted and ate the fruit in deception. If you read the verses further she went to find Adam who willingly CHOSE to eat the fruit without any guise of deception.

Now there are many 'religions' that like to say that woman is the fall of all of mankind, but it was pointed out to me that Adam made a willing choice. There was no description of him being confused, he chose his side  on his own. It also illustrated that he was NOT around Eve when the serpent tempted her. Probably off watching football or taking another nap, similar to how men are never around when they out to be to this day... Lips Sealed  That was TIC for you guys... Grin
If he had been around would it have been as easy for the serpent to tempt Eve???

I hesitate to say Genesis is 'allegory' or some fuzzy warm parable.  How many things can we make into nice stories before we wipe out all literal events including the crucifixion and resurrection?? I also figure there is a lot we will all be surprised to learn when we get to eternity, so I don't hang on having to KNOW everything now. 
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Heorhij
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« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2008, 10:20:48 AM »


I hesitate to say Genesis is 'allegory' or some fuzzy warm parable.  How many things can we make into nice stories before we wipe out all literal events including the crucifixion and resurrection??

What the Church says. The Church never said that one must read Genesis as a literal history.

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GabrieltheCelt
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« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2008, 11:41:10 AM »

A little side note: Some people think the Original Sin was fornication. What is the Church's teaching on this?

Hi Seamus.  Christ is Risen!

This is a great question and one that should be studied by all of us.  To begin with, many Orthodox Christians prefer to call it Ancestral Sin rather than Original Sin.  I believe this is because our ancestors committed this sin and not us per se, and therefore we are not the guilty party.  Whatever you choose to call it, the interpretation you've listed is incorrect and is not Orthodox belief.  The true meaning of Ancestral Sin is the separation and alienation of the entire human race from God that occured after the Fall, for it was then that the heart was invaded by illnesses; primarily the following:

1. Ignorance of God. 
2. Forgetfulness of God (related to Ignorance).
3. Hardness of the Heart. Primarily caused by-
    A. Over preoccupation with wordly affairs.
    B. Focus on physical pleasures.
    C. Obsession with wealth.
4. Blindness and Contamination. When the heart suffers from hardness it is incapable of discerning between good and evil and is rendered unable to recognize the presence of God. It is blind. When the heart becomes accustomed to putrid thoughts, then it suffers from contamination.

Much more can be said about this and, as I mentioned, should be studied by all Orthodox Christians.  I sincerely hope this helps you. Smiley

In Christ,

Gabriel

Sources-
1. The Orthodox Study Bible
2. Archbishop Maximos (Athanasios) of Cyprus. Quoted in The Moutain of Silence by Kyriacos Markides, PhD.
3. Archpriest Fr. Seraphim Slobodskoy (Memory Eternal!). Quoted from his book The Law of God.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2008, 12:05:11 PM by GabrieltheCelt » Logged

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