Author Topic: The movie "The passion of the Christ".  (Read 2610 times)

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Online Mor Ephrem

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Re: The movie "The passion of the Christ".
« Reply #180 on: April 14, 2015, 03:02:50 AM »
I'm not going to go as far as Daniel Goldhagen and advocate editing the New Testament...

Why not?

Better to not risk tainting the historical record.

But earlier you said, regarding liturgical texts:

It isn't about modern sensibilities, it's about human decency. Given the massively bad fruit that the existence of said lines has born in giving ammo to anti-Semites, it's seems clear that their inclusion does more good than bad.

...this stuff should definitely be emphasized as little as possible, and dare I say even treated with shame. If God really is a respecter of persons, then I guess the only thing we can do is try to be better than He is, with fear and trembling.

How do you say this about the Church's liturgical texts but not about its Scriptures?  Or do you?
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

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Offline Volnutt

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Re: The movie "The passion of the Christ".
« Reply #181 on: April 14, 2015, 03:11:54 AM »
That's not editing, it's retiring them from use and then formally distancing the Church from them.

I'm not saying there's no way to reconcile the texts, just if there really is no way to.
Every day we should hear at least one little song, read one good poem, see one exquisite picture, and, if possible, speak a few sensible words. -Goethe

I once heard a monk say, “The person of prayer does not need to go any further than his own heart to find the source of all violence in the world.” -Fr. Stephen Freeman

Offline Volnutt

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Re: The movie "The passion of the Christ".
« Reply #182 on: April 14, 2015, 03:13:47 AM »
Well, it was a perfidious, scandalous act. The murder-by-torture of an innocent man to satisfy what was evidently religious jealousy. An innocent man that, moreover, spoke to their condition with prophetic words the conviction of which they felt the truth of. Leaving aside the matter of Messiah-hood, the Jews' special responsibility to recognize the Christ, and so on, I hope you can see the perfidiousness and scandalousness of this historic awful act.

And in point of fact we warn ourselves every time we point out this great sin of the Jewish religious, considering that we Christians are the "new" Jewish religious, with special insights and responsibilities for our era. I believe the specificity of the warning this should be for us would be diluted were the specificity of the Jewish culpability to be diluted in our memorial texts.

But which Jews are culpable? All Jews living at that time, including those in the Diaspora who were likely not even aware of Jesus? All Jews living today?
« Last Edit: April 14, 2015, 03:14:42 AM by Volnutt »
Every day we should hear at least one little song, read one good poem, see one exquisite picture, and, if possible, speak a few sensible words. -Goethe

I once heard a monk say, “The person of prayer does not need to go any further than his own heart to find the source of all violence in the world.” -Fr. Stephen Freeman

Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: The movie "The passion of the Christ".
« Reply #183 on: April 14, 2015, 07:29:27 AM »
Rationalized hatred has no limits for folks.
Mark 14:36
God is with us, understand O' ye nations, and submit yourselves, for God is with us

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The movie "The passion of the Christ".
« Reply #184 on: April 14, 2015, 02:01:03 PM »
Well, it was a perfidious, scandalous act. The murder-by-torture of an innocent man to satisfy what was evidently religious jealousy. An innocent man that, moreover, spoke to their condition with prophetic words the conviction of which they felt the truth of. Leaving aside the matter of Messiah-hood, the Jews' special responsibility to recognize the Christ, and so on, I hope you can see the perfidiousness and scandalousness of this historic awful act.

And in point of fact we warn ourselves every time we point out this great sin of the Jewish religious, considering that we Christians are the "new" Jewish religious, with special insights and responsibilities for our era. I believe the specificity of the warning this should be for us would be diluted were the specificity of the Jewish culpability to be diluted in our memorial texts.

But which Jews are culpable? All Jews living at that time, including those in the Diaspora who were likely not even aware of Jesus? All Jews living today?

The Jews which sought and secured the death of our Lord were culpable for it.


Rationalized hatred has no limits for folks.

It isn't "hatred" to remember the unjust suffering of our Lord. We must forgive the Jews involved and Pilate, just as our Lord forgave them.
In love did God create the world; in love does he guide it ...; in love is he going wondrously to transform it. --Abba Isaac

Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity. --Climacus

Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: The movie "The passion of the Christ".
« Reply #185 on: April 14, 2015, 06:41:42 PM »
Well, it was a perfidious, scandalous act. The murder-by-torture of an innocent man to satisfy what was evidently religious jealousy. An innocent man that, moreover, spoke to their condition with prophetic words the conviction of which they felt the truth of. Leaving aside the matter of Messiah-hood, the Jews' special responsibility to recognize the Christ, and so on, I hope you can see the perfidiousness and scandalousness of this historic awful act.

And in point of fact we warn ourselves every time we point out this great sin of the Jewish religious, considering that we Christians are the "new" Jewish religious, with special insights and responsibilities for our era. I believe the specificity of the warning this should be for us would be diluted were the specificity of the Jewish culpability to be diluted in our memorial texts.

But which Jews are culpable? All Jews living at that time, including those in the Diaspora who were likely not even aware of Jesus? All Jews living today?

The Jews which sought and secured the death of our Lord were culpable for it.


Rationalized hatred has no limits for folks.

It isn't "hatred" to remember the unjust suffering of our Lord. We must forgive the Jews involved and Pilate, just as our Lord forgave them.

I've often found the definite article "the" to be curious in its use. THE Jews in one of your instances refers to the people present that night, no? If you've ever been in a riotous situation you may note that most everybody joins in. Now if it were the case that non-Jews were there that night looking for a good fight, hanging, whatever, they would not be guilty of crying for His death, would they?
And if so, they would not be guilty,yes? 
And yes, it is as stupid a question as the declarative sentence 'The Jews are To Blame, or Share Most Guilt'. A great "not me as much as THEM" statement. I have always found blaming others or standing on top of others to be a great and vaporous feeling, false and stupid as it is, but the lie feels good, so it continuous to grow!
Now, what about 'The Jews that were there? If you are as correct as history shows you to be, then only those individuals, Jewish or not, are to blame, or as the way you write, only those of Jewish heritage.
So as you believe in "collective guilt" then only those that were perfidious were the two or three that swore to tell the truth and failed, and for that ALL Jews are liars for the age to come.
Well you and the 6th century St. Bede agree on that.
I suppose all White men can't jump, all Black can dance, all women can't drive, blah, blah and .............. forever
Ballams ass there are more ignorant people than one can shake reasoning into while alive!

Thank you, God, for rising from the dead; now can you get the 'living' to do the same?
Mark 14:36
God is with us, understand O' ye nations, and submit yourselves, for God is with us

Offline biro

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Re: The movie "The passion of the Christ".
« Reply #186 on: April 14, 2015, 06:44:57 PM »
Luke 23:34

And Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."
He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will have no end.

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And if I seem a little strange, well, that's because I am

Offline Volnutt

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Re: The movie "The passion of the Christ".
« Reply #187 on: April 14, 2015, 09:08:34 PM »
Well, it was a perfidious, scandalous act. The murder-by-torture of an innocent man to satisfy what was evidently religious jealousy. An innocent man that, moreover, spoke to their condition with prophetic words the conviction of which they felt the truth of. Leaving aside the matter of Messiah-hood, the Jews' special responsibility to recognize the Christ, and so on, I hope you can see the perfidiousness and scandalousness of this historic awful act.

And in point of fact we warn ourselves every time we point out this great sin of the Jewish religious, considering that we Christians are the "new" Jewish religious, with special insights and responsibilities for our era. I believe the specificity of the warning this should be for us would be diluted were the specificity of the Jewish culpability to be diluted in our memorial texts.

But which Jews are culpable? All Jews living at that time, including those in the Diaspora who were likely not even aware of Jesus? All Jews living today?

The Jews which sought and secured the death of our Lord were culpable for it.


Rationalized hatred has no limits for folks.

It isn't "hatred" to remember the unjust suffering of our Lord. We must forgive the Jews involved and Pilate, just as our Lord forgave them.

I've often found the definite article "the" to be curious in its use. THE Jews in one of your instances refers to the people present that night, no? If you've ever been in a riotous situation you may note that most everybody joins in. Now if it were the case that non-Jews were there that night looking for a good fight, hanging, whatever, they would not be guilty of crying for His death, would they?
And if so, they would not be guilty,yes? 
And yes, it is as stupid a question as the declarative sentence 'The Jews are To Blame, or Share Most Guilt'. A great "not me as much as THEM" statement. I have always found blaming others or standing on top of others to be a great and vaporous feeling, false and stupid as it is, but the lie feels good, so it continuous to grow!
Now, what about 'The Jews that were there? If you are as correct as history shows you to be, then only those individuals, Jewish or not, are to blame, or as the way you write, only those of Jewish heritage.
So as you believe in "collective guilt" then only those that were perfidious were the two or three that swore to tell the truth and failed, and for that ALL Jews are liars for the age to come.
Well you and the 6th century St. Bede agree on that.
I suppose all White men can't jump, all Black can dance, all women can't drive, blah, blah and .............. forever
Ballams ass there are more ignorant people than one can shake reasoning into while alive!

Thank you, God, for rising from the dead; now can you get the 'living' to do the same?

Your argument there is not with Porter but with Sts. John and Paul who spoke of "the Jews" constantly.
Every day we should hear at least one little song, read one good poem, see one exquisite picture, and, if possible, speak a few sensible words. -Goethe

I once heard a monk say, “The person of prayer does not need to go any further than his own heart to find the source of all violence in the world.” -Fr. Stephen Freeman

Offline Volnutt

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Re: The movie "The passion of the Christ".
« Reply #188 on: April 14, 2015, 09:09:38 PM »
Well, it was a perfidious, scandalous act. The murder-by-torture of an innocent man to satisfy what was evidently religious jealousy. An innocent man that, moreover, spoke to their condition with prophetic words the conviction of which they felt the truth of. Leaving aside the matter of Messiah-hood, the Jews' special responsibility to recognize the Christ, and so on, I hope you can see the perfidiousness and scandalousness of this historic awful act.

And in point of fact we warn ourselves every time we point out this great sin of the Jewish religious, considering that we Christians are the "new" Jewish religious, with special insights and responsibilities for our era. I believe the specificity of the warning this should be for us would be diluted were the specificity of the Jewish culpability to be diluted in our memorial texts.

But which Jews are culpable? All Jews living at that time, including those in the Diaspora who were likely not even aware of Jesus? All Jews living today?

The Jews which sought and secured the death of our Lord were culpable for it.

Ok. If that's the understanding in those texts, then I guess I don't have an issue with it.
Every day we should hear at least one little song, read one good poem, see one exquisite picture, and, if possible, speak a few sensible words. -Goethe

I once heard a monk say, “The person of prayer does not need to go any further than his own heart to find the source of all violence in the world.” -Fr. Stephen Freeman

Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: The movie "The passion of the Christ".
« Reply #189 on: April 14, 2015, 11:07:13 PM »

Your argument there is not with Porter but with Sts. John and Paul who spoke of "the Jews" constantly.

Well, you are a fundamental  :o  and right especially about those that were there that night and had partaken in The Event.
Which obviates the centuries of hatred and behavior towards Jews as they bare "most of the guilt".

Sts. Paul and John, both Jews, were mad at those who participated during Passover, when the town would have been full of Jews; also the trials were in The Temple, so obviously everything was Jewish all the way.
There anger was righteous, but the next 20 centuries were not in the treatment of Jews.
No clarification made for that matter. That's all.

I took the name Longinus: he was the centurion, not Jewish, who thrust his spear into Christ. He declared the truth revealed, that This Man was surely the Son of God.
One reason for taking his name is I realized that each sin I commit is as a spear in Him; and like him The Blood makes me blind but unlike him I do not become a bishop after conversion and doubt if I'll be martyred.
Thanks for cooling me down.
Mark 14:36
God is with us, understand O' ye nations, and submit yourselves, for God is with us

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Re: The movie "The passion of the Christ".
« Reply #190 on: April 15, 2015, 01:21:53 AM »
That's not editing, it's retiring them from use and then formally distancing the Church from them.

"I don't hate my mother, I'm just not going to visit her or take her calls and stop having a meaningful relationship with her."
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

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Offline Volnutt

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Re: The movie "The passion of the Christ".
« Reply #191 on: April 15, 2015, 01:24:55 AM »
That's not editing, it's retiring them from use and then formally distancing the Church from them.

"I don't hate my mother, I'm just not going to visit her or take her calls and stop having a meaningful relationship with her."

Is my mother a member of the American Nazi Party?
Every day we should hear at least one little song, read one good poem, see one exquisite picture, and, if possible, speak a few sensible words. -Goethe

I once heard a monk say, “The person of prayer does not need to go any further than his own heart to find the source of all violence in the world.” -Fr. Stephen Freeman

Online Mor Ephrem

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Re: The movie "The passion of the Christ".
« Reply #192 on: April 15, 2015, 01:33:59 AM »
Luke 23:34

And Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."

Matthew 21:43

"Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation producing the fruits of it."

Matthew 23:38

"Behold, your house is forsaken and desolate."

Luke 19:27

"'But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them before me.'"

John 8:44

"You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires...He who is of God hears the words of God; the reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God."
« Last Edit: April 15, 2015, 01:35:56 AM by Mor Ephrem »
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Mor no longer posts on OCNet.  He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants.  But he really isn't around anymore.


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Re: The movie "The passion of the Christ".
« Reply #193 on: April 15, 2015, 01:35:00 AM »
That's not editing, it's retiring them from use and then formally distancing the Church from them.

"I don't hate my mother, I'm just not going to visit her or take her calls and stop having a meaningful relationship with her."

Is my mother a member of the American Nazi Party?

Of all the OCNet members' mothers I know here, yours is not one of them, so I can't answer this.
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Mor no longer posts on OCNet.  He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants.  But he really isn't around anymore.


Offline Volnutt

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Re: The movie "The passion of the Christ".
« Reply #194 on: April 15, 2015, 01:37:44 AM »
That's not editing, it's retiring them from use and then formally distancing the Church from them.

"I don't hate my mother, I'm just not going to visit her or take her calls and stop having a meaningful relationship with her."

Is my mother a member of the American Nazi Party?

Of all the OCNet members' mothers I know here, yours is not one of them, so I can't answer this.

She's not and if she was I would definitely distance myself from her.
Every day we should hear at least one little song, read one good poem, see one exquisite picture, and, if possible, speak a few sensible words. -Goethe

I once heard a monk say, “The person of prayer does not need to go any further than his own heart to find the source of all violence in the world.” -Fr. Stephen Freeman

Offline mdamyers

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Re: The movie "The passion of the Christ".
« Reply #195 on: April 15, 2015, 02:59:57 AM »
Luke 23:34

And Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."

Matthew 21:43

"Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation producing the fruits of it."

Matthew 23:38

"Behold, your house is forsaken and desolate."

Luke 19:27

"'But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them before me.'"

John 8:44

"You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires...He who is of God hears the words of God; the reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God."

Mor, as you know, the parable of the 10 minas in Luke chapter 19 looks ahead to the new age, the dawn in its fullness, after the parousia. As I'm sure you would agree, malicious misinterpretations have misconstrued this particular verse (together with others) and various ideologies have incorporated such misinterpretations. They have been sources of some of the very worst persecutions of the Jewish people, and all of them are of course persecutions in this age, prior to the Lord's return in glory -- very much including the Holocaust itself.

This has been an ongoing historical tragedy, mainly in the Western Church but not only in her, though the descent to its horrible nadir occurred there. I recommend that whenever discussions such as these come up, it's very important that participants read all the texts that touch on unbelieving Jews (who by this definition still await the first coming) in the light of Romans 11, where Paul issued a terribly stern & eloquent warning against all presumption vis-a-vis the Jewish people and their ultimate destiny -- which is to be grafted back into the Israel of God, along with the elect of all the ages. In Christ.

And of course these words cited from the Gospel of John were directed by the Lord against those who were willfully misunderstanding him, his public adversaries. In this chapter, a clear distinction is made between "the people" and his public opponents among the Pharisees and "teachers of the law." The context makes clear to me that the "The Jews" is to be read first of all as signifying the public opponents of His teaching in that day. But I think that too many Christians have not heard the warning implicit here: they may take the place of those who were cut off for their unbelief. They, or even whole churches, may be in danger, like the unbelieving scribes and Pharisees, of finding themselves in public opposition to this teaching of Christ's Apostle Paul -- with potentially terrible consequences.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2015, 03:25:29 AM by mdamyers »

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The movie "The passion of the Christ".
« Reply #196 on: April 15, 2015, 03:39:21 AM »
This is getting bizarre.
In love did God create the world; in love does he guide it ...; in love is he going wondrously to transform it. --Abba Isaac

Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity. --Climacus

Offline mdamyers

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Re: The movie "The passion of the Christ".
« Reply #197 on: April 15, 2015, 03:47:23 AM »
Luke 23:34

And Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."

Having made that observation . . . This, one of the seven sayings on the cross, is found only in Luke. And the narrative in Luke 23 is devoted mainly to mitigating Pilate's (viz. Roman) guilt for this judicial murder, relative to that of the religious leadership in Jerusalem. That has to be kept in mind, as Mor implicitly stressed.

Offline mdamyers

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Re: The movie "The passion of the Christ".
« Reply #198 on: April 15, 2015, 03:47:52 AM »
This is getting bizarre.

Please elaborate.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The movie "The passion of the Christ".
« Reply #199 on: April 15, 2015, 03:49:29 AM »
You're elaborating along quite nicely without me.
In love did God create the world; in love does he guide it ...; in love is he going wondrously to transform it. --Abba Isaac

Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity. --Climacus

Offline mdamyers

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Re: The movie "The passion of the Christ".
« Reply #200 on: April 15, 2015, 04:06:27 AM »
You're elaborating along quite nicely without me.

I asked because it wasn't clear to me what exactly "this" was that you described as getting bizarre. Maybe you meant Godwin's law rearing its head. That struck me as bizarre, anyway.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The movie "The passion of the Christ".
« Reply #201 on: April 15, 2015, 04:18:15 AM »
St. Paul as wrathful specter athwart the centuries, menacing the Church's liturgy in vengeance of the Holocaust? But also Volnutt's Nazi mother and several other things in the thread.
In love did God create the world; in love does he guide it ...; in love is he going wondrously to transform it. --Abba Isaac

Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity. --Climacus

Offline mdamyers

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Re: The movie "The passion of the Christ".
« Reply #202 on: April 15, 2015, 04:32:29 AM »
Volnutt noted:

"For me this is not about Mel Gibson but about the Liturgy and the Fathers. I'm still skeptical that a Church that still sings,

Quote
the murderers of God, the lawless nation of the Jews

And

Quote
But give them, Lord, their reward, because they devised vain things against Thee

Can really claim to represent the love of God."

I'm wondering if there's any Orthodox versions of Martin Luther's beloved Judensau..."
[/quote]

~~~

Yep, there's one very influential version, the famous (or better, infamous) psogos that strongly influenced Luther 1100 years later. A series of sermons delivered at the Antioch cathedral by none other than the greatest Orthodox homilist himself, John Chrysostom. "Eight Homilies Against the Jews [Adversus Judeaus]", Patrologia Graeca, Vol 98.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2015, 04:49:00 AM by mdamyers »

Offline mdamyers

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Re: The movie "The passion of the Christ".
« Reply #203 on: April 15, 2015, 04:36:21 AM »
St. Paul as wrathful specter athwart the centuries, menacing the Church's liturgy in vengeance of the Holocaust? But also Volnutt's Nazi mother and several other things in the thread.

So, you do appear to be suggesting that something I said was bizarre, too, which is fine, but maybe you could be more specific. Please explain how that first sentence of yours is a fair summary of anything I actually wrote, if that's what you meant it to be. If so you'd need to unpack that one, at least for me. What are you saying exactly? Is it possible you misread me?
« Last Edit: April 15, 2015, 04:50:33 AM by mdamyers »

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The movie "The passion of the Christ".
« Reply #204 on: April 15, 2015, 04:49:05 AM »
Thank you for the invitation.
In love did God create the world; in love does he guide it ...; in love is he going wondrously to transform it. --Abba Isaac

Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity. --Climacus

Offline mdamyers

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Re: The movie "The passion of the Christ".
« Reply #205 on: April 15, 2015, 04:57:31 AM »
Thank you for the invitation.

Porter, I edited that one after I posted it and before you thanked me for my invitation. Please have a look.

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Re: The movie "The passion of the Christ".
« Reply #206 on: April 15, 2015, 03:18:42 PM »
Mor, as you know, the parable of the 10 minas in Luke chapter 19 looks ahead to the new age, the dawn in its fullness, after the parousia. As I'm sure you would agree, malicious misinterpretations have misconstrued this particular verse (together with others) and various ideologies have incorporated such misinterpretations. They have been sources of some of the very worst persecutions of the Jewish people, and all of them are of course persecutions in this age, prior to the Lord's return in glory -- very much including the Holocaust itself.

I responded to one out-of-context quote with several others to show that such selective reading doesn't really help clarify anything. 

As for your interpretation of the parable in Lk 19, I'm not sure why one cannot read it as a moral tale, an icon of the parousia, and as an icon of the rejection of Christ by the Jews all at the same time without that necessarily meaning that the reader supports the Holocaust.  Put another way, why are we comfortable with a story that ends with a whole bunch of people being slaughtered as long as it is referring to something that will be done at some point in the future and the victims are not just Jews? 

Frankly, I find a lot of how this thread has developed to be silly.  But I'm not convinced we need to repent of the antisemitism of some of our membership throughout history by redefining, ignoring, or rejecting authoritative sources of our faith, and it seems some are arguing for just that without coming out and saying it plainly.  Our duty is to receive, understand properly, implement, and pass on the faith.  If someone thinks Christian theology justifies the Holocaust, s/he has failed at some point in that process of reception, belief, implementation, and tradition.  We need to address that, but we have no right to just tear it all apart and build something else.  It isn't a bunch of Legos in the hands of a four year old.         
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Mor no longer posts on OCNet.  He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants.  But he really isn't around anymore.


Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: The movie "The passion of the Christ".
« Reply #207 on: April 15, 2015, 03:22:24 PM »
That's not editing, it's retiring them from use and then formally distancing the Church from them.

"I don't hate my mother, I'm just not going to visit her or take her calls and stop having a meaningful relationship with her."

Is my mother a member of the American Nazi Party?

Of all the OCNet members' mothers I know here, yours is not one of them, so I can't answer this.

She's not and if she was I would definitely distance myself from her.

So you CAN prove a negative?
 ::)
Mark 14:36
God is with us, understand O' ye nations, and submit yourselves, for God is with us

Offline mdamyers

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Re: The movie "The passion of the Christ".
« Reply #208 on: Today at 12:37:28 AM »
Volnutt asked:
"I'm wondering if there's any Orthodox versions of Martin Luther's beloved Judensau..."

~~~

I wrote:
"Yep, there's one very influential version, the famous (or better, infamous) psogos that strongly influenced Luther 1100 years later. A series of sermons delivered at the Antioch cathedral by none other than the greatest Orthodox homilist himself, John Chrysostom. "Eight Homilies Against the Jews [Adversus Judeaus]", Patrologia Graeca, Vol 98."



Looks as if this citation is probably inaccurate. Seems PG (Migne) v. 98 can't be right, but I can't find the correct volume number.  Interestingly, I was also unable to locate a respectable, scholarly academic or university link to the entire text in English. These eight homilies were delivered at the very beginning of Chrysostom's series of ordinations at Antioch (delivered ~390 CE). They marked his debut as a cathedral orator. A very auspicious debut.

You can read all eight in English at the link below, but I can't vouch for the quality of the translation:

http://www.preteristarchive.com/ChurchHistory/0386_chrysostom_adversus-judeaus.html

"John Chrysostom, Discourses Against Judaizing Christians" (vol. 68 of Fathers of the Church), trans. Paul W. Harkins (Washington, D.C.: Catholic University of America Press, 1979) is a source cite that I know is correct, although Harkins' translation of the title is at best highly questionable editorializing. I would go further and call it simply false.

It's pretty shocking stuff. John Chrysotom's nasty rant (utilizing the pagan rhetorical mode of psogos, a technical term for sleazy diatribe) doesn't scruple about spicing things up with some easily refuted lies re: "the Jews." Lies refuted by the plain text of the scriptures themselves. This vile rhetoric has been extremely influential as fuel in Christian-Jewish conflicts over the centuries. The Nazis had a field day with this stuff. Luther's infamous rant, "Von den Jüden und iren Lügen" (On the Jews and Their Lies) had long been a key component in the evolution of various anti-Semitic ideologies in German literary, political and church history. Chrysostom was his mentor among the Fathers in this.
« Last Edit: Today at 12:43:26 AM by mdamyers »

Offline mdamyers

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Re: The movie "The passion of the Christ".
« Reply #209 on: Today at 12:51:15 AM »
Mor, as you know, the parable of the 10 minas in Luke chapter 19 looks ahead to the new age, the dawn in its fullness, after the parousia. As I'm sure you would agree, malicious misinterpretations have misconstrued this particular verse (together with others) and various ideologies have incorporated such misinterpretations. They have been sources of some of the very worst persecutions of the Jewish people, and all of them are of course persecutions in this age, prior to the Lord's return in glory -- very much including the Holocaust itself.

I responded to one out-of-context quote with several others to show that such selective reading doesn't really help clarify anything.

Yes, I understand and I think you're certainly right about that.

As for your interpretation of the parable in Lk 19, I'm not sure why one cannot read it as a moral tale, an icon of the parousia, and as an icon of the rejection of Christ by the Jews all at the same time without that necessarily meaning that the reader supports the Holocaust. 

Mor, I completely agree with you that the parable can be read in all three ways, so long as the definition of "the Jews" is properly qualified by the context of the whole NT (and the rest of the Scriptures). And of course I didn't mean to suggest that anyone here who'd read it in that way was doing so in support of the Holocaust, to be clear.
« Last Edit: Today at 12:55:11 AM by mdamyers »

Offline mdamyers

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Re: The movie "The passion of the Christ".
« Reply #210 on: Today at 01:04:41 AM »
Mor, as you know, the parable of the 10 minas in Luke chapter 19 looks ahead to the new age, the dawn in its fullness, after the parousia. As I'm sure you would agree, malicious misinterpretations have misconstrued this particular verse (together with others) and various ideologies have incorporated such misinterpretations. They have been sources of some of the very worst persecutions of the Jewish people, and all of them are of course persecutions in this age, prior to the Lord's return in glory -- very much including the Holocaust itself.

Mor observed: Put another way, why are we comfortable with a story that ends with a whole bunch of people being slaughtered as long as it is referring to something that will be done at some point in the future and the victims are not just Jews?    

Off the top of my head, I can't think of another Dominical hard saying that's quite as hard as this one. I'm not at all comfortable with it. The main thing I wanted to stress earlier is that, on the evidence of the text itself, my reading is that 1) it occurs after the parousia and 2) it's the Lord, not unregenerate men, who's ordering the slaughter. Not that this helps much. I'm just saying.
« Last Edit: Today at 01:07:13 AM by mdamyers »

Offline Velsigne

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Re: The movie "The passion of the Christ".
« Reply #211 on: Today at 12:08:19 PM »
Has anyone mentioned in this thread that Mel Gibson's movie, "Passion of the Christ" is primarily based on the visions of a Roman Catholic nun?

Wikipedia:

Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich (German: Anna Katharina Emmerick; 8 September 1774 – 9 February 1824) was a Roman Catholic Augustinian Canoness Regular of Windesheim, mystic, Marian visionary, ecstatic and stigmatist.

She was born in Flamschen, a farming community at Coesfeld, in the Diocese of Münster, Westphalia, Germany, and died at age 49 in Dülmen, where she had been a nun, and later became bedridden. Emmerich is notable for her visions on the life and Passion of Jesus Christ, reputed to be revealed to her by the Blessed Virgin Mary under Religious ecstasy.

During her bedridden years, a number of well-known figures were inspired to visit her. The poet Clemens Brentano interviewed her at length and wrote two books based on his notes of her visions. The authenticity of Brentano's writings has been questioned and critics have characterized the books as "conscious elaborations by a poet" and a "well-intentioned fraud" by Brentano.

Emmerich was beatified on October 3, 2004, by Pope John Paul II.  However, the Vatican focused on her own personal piety rather than the religious writings associated to her by Clemens Brentano. Emmerich has a widespread devotion among Traditionalist Catholics.


Emphasis mine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Catherine_Emmerich

Yes. On the first page, actually. Reply #14.

OK thanks ZZ. 

So, the thread might as well have ended there, or with Mina's comment about how perhaps some might benefit from a little more focus on the suffering of the Bridegroom.

In summary, we have a bunch of people, mostly those outside the Orthodox faith with distorted views, and those who may be Orthodox with distorted views, arguing about Jews based on the ecstatic visions of an RC nun (RCism is well known for a long history of anti-semitism) filmed by a director well known for anti-semitic views, arguing how God views them. 

Yes, this thread should have ended long ago.

I think it's a bit rich for Orthodox to point fingers at Catholics for anti-Semitism.


Really?  The entire Orthodox Church? 

Which of the seven councils came up with decrees like this:

The third and latest ex cathedra proclamation of this dogma from Pope Eugene IV, 1441, the Bull Cantate Domino reads as follows: “The most Holy Roman Catholic Church firmly believes, professes, and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews, and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great at it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remains within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.”

???


The days of Christians wandering back and forth from synagogue to Christian Liturgy are over.  The Sabbath was moved to Sunday (Resurrection Day) to celebrate the Resurrection.  The statement above is not rhetorical device set in a greater context of church life and teaching to guide people away from wandering back and forth and all the confusion that entails, but is rather a clear statement of RC underpinnings that continued up to the modern era when they formally backed off that stance and implemented changes in catechesis.

I, for one, am grateful for the immense spiritual beauty of what has come to us (the nations) through Judaism, especially Jesus Christ Himself. 

What people tend to forget in these dramatizations of evil Jews murdering one of their own is that the people weeping at His feet were Jews too, and the mockers and scourgers were of the nations.   And all of this is our greatest Feast of the year.

That some Orthodox people have engaged in pogroms does not translate to 'the entire Orthodox Church'.

Please point out the directive from the seven councils to hate Jews in general, condemn them to hell, and annihilate them. 

Your forum probably won't be set upon by Abe Foxman and his ADL minions since the rules here will preclude those of other faiths from camping here for years and tirelessly ripping on Christians as they do in other forums.  Though, threads such as these gives him a reason to claim that $500k salary.


Offline Velsigne

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Re: The movie "The passion of the Christ".
« Reply #212 on: Today at 12:19:48 PM »
Oh, and forgive me, Christos Anesti!

Offline mdamyers

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Re: The movie "The passion of the Christ".
« Reply #213 on: Today at 12:27:37 PM »
Ἀληθῶς ἀνέστη!

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: The movie "The passion of the Christ".
« Reply #214 on: Today at 02:11:52 PM »
Everybody, please remember that this is the General Forum, where debate is forbidden.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline mdamyers

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Re: The movie "The passion of the Christ".
« Reply #215 on: Today at 03:54:31 PM »
Everybody, please remember that this is the General Forum, where debate is forbidden.

Peter, I'm new to this site as a poster, though I've been reading it with real admiration, overall, for years. I want to make clear at the outset that I hope to engage the posters here in genuine dialogue, and I plan to try very hard to do that within the boundaries that you moderators have delineated and enforce. At this point I probably have only a newbie's sensitivity to the differences that define the rules of engagement in the various forums. (I've read at least some of the relevant posts the administrators have provided to help members understand the rules.)

A few here will have had some exposure to my general style of polemic engagement with veterans at Monomakhos. After three years of intimate personal experience, I've come to the firm conclusion that anything like genuine dialogue is practically impossible there -- dialogue as I understand it, anyway. It wouldn't be charitable to go into much detail about why I think that's true, so I won't go there. I doubt that I need to.

The contrast between oc.net and Monomakhos is like day and night to me, relatively speaking. So I'm excited about the prospects for meaningful and mutually respectful -- and illuminating -- conversation on this blog, in Christ and in the Light of the Holy Spirit. The last thing I would want to do is transgress boundaries that I respect and for which I can see the purpose, if somewhat dimly at this point. I actually look forward to constructive reprimands if and when that happens, as I suspect it will. I'm confident that I can do my thing here together with all of you, and do it by the book. So feel free to throw it at me when I'm out of line!

A toast to respect for reason, Holy Tradition, and the coming of the Kingdom of God!

Χριστός ἀνέστη!