Author Topic: No Passion (Holy) Week services and no Pascha for me this year...  (Read 18620 times)

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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: No Passion (Holy) Week services and no Pascha for me this year...
« Reply #90 on: April 22, 2008, 10:54:08 AM »
mean are to be leaders in the family
I think your freudian slip is showing. ;)
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Offline Heorhij

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Re: No Passion (Holy) Week services and no Pascha for me this year...
« Reply #91 on: April 22, 2008, 10:54:23 AM »
George, I humbly ask you to forgive me if I have offended you.  

No, Gregory, not at all, of course not. You did not offend me.
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Offline Thomas

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Re: No Passion (Holy) Week services and no Pascha for me this year...
« Reply #92 on: April 22, 2008, 11:07:14 AM »
Heorhij ,

I was just rereading several of your posts and I note that one of the things that you  frequently mention are the well educated people whom you and your wife associate with who are agnostic and athiests.  Perhaps you could make acquaintances thru this website who are intelligent, well educated people who are Orthodox Christians.  There are many well educated Orthodox Christians in the United States who may be able to assist you in this.  One is Dr. Tristan Engelhardt, Jr., a professor at Rice University, a noted medical and social ethicist who is an Orthodox Christian. I know he is a noted lecturer around the country and perhaps you could even entice him to speak at your University. You may be surprised to even find some well educated Orthodox Christians relatively close to where you live whom may be willing to start an internet friendship, followed by visits, and something may blossom from that for your wife.  Often it is whom we surround ourselves with that have a great influence on us. As always my prayers are with you. May you have a blessed Pascha.

Thomas
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Offline Heorhij

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Re: No Passion (Holy) Week services and no Pascha for me this year...
« Reply #93 on: April 22, 2008, 11:22:19 AM »
^Thank you, Thomas. That's great, I will definitely contact Dr. Engelhardt. At Mississippi State University where my wife works, there are some Orthodox Christians among the faculty and/or staff, too; I know it because they have an Orthodox Student Association, led, most likely, by a faculty member who is Orthodox. We never got to know them, though, again, because of my dear wife's strong "chip on the shoulder" against "religious people."

This problem might actually disappear in just a few years, when we both retire. Our daughter is getting married on May 24 this year, and she and her husband will live in Boston. Very likely, we - my wife and I - will move to Boston, too, and there we will most definitely befriend some Ukrainian Orthodox people.
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Offline pensateomnia

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Re: No Passion (Holy) Week services and no Pascha for me this year...
« Reply #94 on: April 22, 2008, 11:30:56 AM »
My dear wife categorically refuses to go to an Orthodox church out of town for this year's Holy Week services or for Pascha, and categorically refuses to let me go.

Maybe next year... Please pray for us...

Heorhij: Considering your situation, you can get some exposure to the services of Holy Week by watching one of the various Webcasts that are out there on the Web.

The Orthodox Christian Network (www.MyOCN.net) is streaming at least one service every evening of Holy Week. Archives are available here: http://www.myocn.net/index.php/Holy-Week-2008.html

My wife and I have set up a left stand that is all English. Unfortunately, that means you'll have to forgive my butchering of the aposticha in last night's service.

Blessed Holy Week to all!
But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)

Offline Heorhij

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Re: No Passion (Holy) Week services and no Pascha for me this year...
« Reply #95 on: April 22, 2008, 11:47:47 AM »
^Thanks a million! :)
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Offline Gregory1958

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Re: No Passion (Holy) Week services and no Pascha for me this year...
« Reply #96 on: April 22, 2008, 12:25:22 PM »
ozgeorge,

Seeing a demon around every corner, are you?  That is not a Freudian slip.  We call that a typographical error, or "typo" for short.  Perhaps you have heard that term before?

Offline Myrrh23

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Re: No Passion (Holy) Week services and no Pascha for me this year...
« Reply #97 on: April 22, 2008, 12:26:07 PM »
Quote
As for greekischristi's comment about my having failed to grasp the concept of brotherly love:  Maybe I have.  I am a terrible sinner, to be sure.  But, it amazes me that you are able to draw that conclusion based on a few comments in a forum.  But, what amazes me even more is that you have been appointed my judge!  I failed to get the memo about that one.

We only get a taste of what people might be like based on their comments on this forum, for we have often have no other outlet TO know them. As such, you should be careful what you write, whether it was made in jest/loyalty to Christianity or not. Even if your words didn't offend Heorhij, if they came out offensive to anyone, maybe you should take that as a sign and turn down the heater. Traditionally and even in the modern day all around the world, the man has said to women, "Jump" and we ask, "How high?" That's usually the image that people have in their heads when someone else says that so-and-so should assume his role as the head of the family. Obviously, the situation seems very unstable for Heorhij and stomping the man staff is not a good option for him right now, especially since he gave us a taste of a reaction his wife has had about religious people.
Oh, and you should realize that GreekisChristian has a long stick that he likes to poke people with on this forum concerning spiritual and cultural matters, so put your bomb helmet on, lol! ;) He's cool, though. ;D
He is very educated and rational, so don't think I'm trying to make him come off as some "little yapping dog"....ahem..back to the point...
Heorhij, when I was reading your text about how your wife is concerning religious....that's sometimes like how I feel about Roman Catholics...scary! :P
« Last Edit: April 22, 2008, 12:28:24 PM by Myrrh23 »
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Offline GiC

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Re: No Passion (Holy) Week services and no Pascha for me this year...
« Reply #98 on: April 22, 2008, 01:21:10 PM »
You were criticizing content, huh?  Well, then I am beginning to see even more clearly that your viewpoint is heavily skewed by the current worldly thought, rather than the Christian faith.  That explains much to me.  After all, I was refering to the words of The Lord, Himself when you took issue with what I had said.

When Christianity becomes used to maintain a system of inequality the principles being used should be reevaluated. Fortunately, your type are a minority amongst Christians in the civilized world.

Quote
Obviously you have missed my point, entirely.  But, worse than that, your allowing the culture to dictate your beliefs is truely disturbing.

Culture isn't dictating anything to me, I'm on the extreme left of the culture trying to force it further along. I am simply suggesting that you allow the cultural changes that those who think like me have accomplished over the past couple centuries inform your views. If you don't want to enter the 21st century, at least enter the 20th.

Quote
There are some of us who still believe that that man is the head of the wife, as the Scripture tells us.  (After all, we are ORTHODOX!)  This does not mean, lest you jump to yet another conclusion, that I beleive that men should be domineering toward women and lord it over them.  (I am quite certain, based on your previous comments, that you automatically assume that is what I mean.)  We are to love our wives as Christ loved the Church.  It does mean, however, that men are to be leaders in the family, particularly when it comes to spiritual matters.  Since we have been talking about a spiritual matter -- whether or not George should go to the Paschal liturgy or stay home with his wife who demands that he stay home -- I was suggesting that he be the man, i.e., the head of the home.  If you, because of your skewed and worldly vision of the husband/wife relationship misunderstood, then I fail to see where that is my fault.

It's your fault because civilization has left you behind and you have failed to put forth any effort to catch up. It is, of course, a principle of our society that you are free to believe what you want, but I am equally free to dispute and dismiss such anachronistic and dangerous views as you espouse. Don't think that I will allow you to threaten the most significant cultural and social advancements of western civilization without comment.

Quote
I will not continue to argue with you about this.  If you want to have a worldly view, then that is your choice.  It would behoove you, however, to understand the Christian view, not the I'll-try-to-fit-the-worldy/feminist-view-into-my-Christian-faith view.  But, that is your choice.  I am not going to discuss it any further.

Oh, I understand your position, there was a time when I held it. But that doesn't change the fact that you're just plain wrong.
"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry

Offline Heorhij

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Re: No Passion (Holy) Week services and no Pascha for me this year...
« Reply #99 on: April 22, 2008, 01:51:17 PM »
It's kind of funny that "feminism" crept into this discussion. My wife does not identify herself as a feminist. Moreover, sometimes she says, half-jokingly, that she is a male chauvinist.:) She has some very traditional, conservative values: for example, she loves to cook and says that she would not feel good about engaging in any activity if a dinner in her home is not prepared and served. She never debates "issues," never insists that she is "entitled" to some particular "rights," etc. And I know that I and our daughter are enormously important for her. Our well-being is her first priority. But, like I said, so far she had only negative experience in dealing with religious people and she really, seriously dislikes them, virtually all of them (well, with one exception - the former pastor at the Presbyterian church where I was baptized; a woman, who quit that church and denomination and is, at the moment, a Roman Catholic nun living in New Zealand).
« Last Edit: April 22, 2008, 01:53:27 PM by Heorhij »
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Offline Gregory1958

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Re: No Passion (Holy) Week services and no Pascha for me this year...
« Reply #100 on: April 22, 2008, 04:33:10 PM »
greekischristian wrote:  "It's your fault because civilization has left you behind and you have failed to put forth any effort to catch up. "

Someone once said that the way to destruction was broad.  (Let's see, now:  Who was that? ;) )  I don't mind the world leaving me behind.  In fact, thanks for the affirmation!  I would rather follow the ways of Christ.

greekischristian wrote: "When Christianity becomes used to maintain a system of inequality the principles being used should be reevaluated. Fortunately, your type are a minority amongst Christians in the civilized world."

Christianity -- at least Orthodox Christian Faith -- is not maintaining a system of inequality. We recognize that there are different roles for men and women, but not different value.  This is a truth that escapes the liberal-minded (i.e., worldly minded) feminists.  They cannot understand how this dichotomy can exist.  Their thinking is narrow and closed.  Man is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the Church.  This is a spiritual truth and has nothing whatsoever to do with culture, as one can easily deduce by the text. The body cannot be the head; it is the body.  The Church cannot be the head;  it is the body and the Lord is not going to be replaced.  Neither can the wife be the head, although many, many try in today's modern world. 

If you think I am a couple of centuries behind because I hold to this teaching of the Christian faith:  GOOD!  If you want to ignore the faith in favor of modern thinking, then go ahead.  If you want to fool yourself into thinking that you are enlightened and that I am "fortunately" in a minority:  GOOD, too!  As for me, I prefer to lean not unto my own understanding.  As a former protestant minister, I had my fill of trying to be the final authority! 

Ok, I said that I wasn't going to discuss this further with you, but your arrogant indignance at the Christian teaching (funny -- are you not an Orthodox Christian? hmmm) just tempted me too much. 

Ok, you can rant and rave all you want.  I'm done.

Gregory



« Last Edit: April 22, 2008, 04:36:30 PM by Gregory1958 »

Offline Gregory1958

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Re: No Passion (Holy) Week services and no Pascha for me this year...
« Reply #101 on: April 22, 2008, 04:39:17 PM »
Myrhh23 wrote: "We only get a taste of what people might be like based on their comments on this forum, for we have often have no other outlet TO know them. As such, you should be careful what you write, whether it was made in jest/loyalty to Christianity or not. Even if your words didn't offend Heorhij, if they came out offensive to anyone, maybe you should take that as a sign and turn down the heater."

Maybe I just visit forums where people have a bit thicker skin and don't wear their feelings on their sleeves.  Could someone put up a sign that says "ADULTS ONLY"?  Then I wouldn't have to walk on egg shells.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2008, 04:39:36 PM by Gregory1958 »

Offline Schultz

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Re: No Passion (Holy) Week services and no Pascha for me this year...
« Reply #102 on: April 22, 2008, 04:55:29 PM »
Maybe I just visit forums where people have a bit thicker skin and don't wear their feelings on their sleeves.  Could someone put up a sign that says "ADULTS ONLY"?  Then I wouldn't have to walk on egg shells.

I was always raised to adopt the decorum of whatever the prevailing situation/culture I happen to find myself in whenever I find that it's more formal/more is expected of me.

If someone takes offense to what I have said or more importantly how I have said something, it is my duty to do my best to not make the mistake again no matter how ridiculous I may find the offense to be.

Not a judgment, just food for thought :)
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Offline Gregory1958

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Re: No Passion (Holy) Week services and no Pascha for me this year...
« Reply #103 on: April 22, 2008, 05:46:00 PM »
I have actually taken offense to much that has been said in this forum, but instead of whining that my feelings have been hurt, I have sought to point out the falacies in what was said.  That is typical adult discussion.  Schultz, perhaps you are right.  I should adapt to the custom of the place where I am.  That is why I won't stay around in this room.  Like I said, I would prefer to find an adult room.

Oh, I'm so sorry if this offends anyone.  Please, allow me to rephrase that:  I will look for a room where adults can carry on a conversation without a constant worrying that people will read into others' comments their own social biases and then lash out at the one who made the comment by telling him how mean and unloving he is.  Don't know if that is much better, but maybe it won't be too upsetting.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2008, 05:47:14 PM by Gregory1958 »

Offline GiC

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Re: No Passion (Holy) Week services and no Pascha for me this year...
« Reply #104 on: April 22, 2008, 06:05:15 PM »
Someone once said that the way to destruction was broad.  (Let's see, now:  Who was that? ;) )  I don't mind the world leaving me behind.  In fact, thanks for the affirmation!  I would rather follow the ways of Christ.

You and the members of the FLDS are welcome.

Quote
Christianity -- at least Orthodox Christian Faith -- is not maintaining a system of inequality. We recognize that there are different roles for men and women, but not different value.  This is a truth that escapes the liberal-minded (i.e., worldly minded) feminists.  They cannot understand how this dichotomy can exist.  Their thinking is narrow and closed.  Man is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the Church.  This is a spiritual truth and has nothing whatsoever to do with culture, as one can easily deduce by the text. The body cannot be the head; it is the body.  The Church cannot be the head;  it is the body and the Lord is not going to be replaced.  Neither can the wife be the head, although many, many try in today's modern world. 

Separate is inherently unequal. Nice rhetoric you have there but a) I've already heard the party line, try something different for a change, and b) it's a bunch of nonsense your, distopian theory has no bearing on reality.

Quote
If you think I am a couple of centuries behind because I hold to this teaching of the Christian faith:  GOOD!

So when do we get to start burning witches? You're starting to make me feel cold and giving me the shivers, a sure sign of witchcraft if I've ever seen one. Who do I get to accuse you of being a warlock to?

Quote
If you want to ignore the faith in favor of modern thinking, then go ahead.  If you want to fool yourself into thinking that you are enlightened and that I am "fortunately" in a minority:  GOOD, too!  As for me, I prefer to lean not unto my own understanding.  As a former protestant minister, I had my fill of trying to be the final authority! 

Ahhh...now I'm starting to get the picture.

Quote
Ok, I said that I wasn't going to discuss this further with you, but your arrogant indignance at the Christian teaching (funny -- are you not an Orthodox Christian? hmmm) just tempted me too much. 

You did read my religion in my profile, didn't you?
"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry

Offline GiC

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Re: No Passion (Holy) Week services and no Pascha for me this year...
« Reply #105 on: April 22, 2008, 06:07:58 PM »
Maybe I just visit forums where people have a bit thicker skin and don't wear their feelings on their sleeves.  Could someone put up a sign that says "ADULTS ONLY"?  Then I wouldn't have to walk on egg shells.

You can say what you want to me, I don't particularly care. But I thought that someone should point out to you that your positions were not socially acceptable. Heck, if you want to debate the benefits of communism and national socialism, I'm all for it, but I might point out that some of the ideals espoused by those ideologies are unacceptable for modern society...especially if you come across as not understanding the unacceptability of some of your positions.
"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry

Offline Fr. George

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Re: No Passion (Holy) Week services and no Pascha for me this year...
« Reply #106 on: April 22, 2008, 06:15:54 PM »
^Thank you, Thomas. That's great, I will definitely contact Dr. Engelhardt. At Mississippi State University where my wife works, there are some Orthodox Christians among the faculty and/or staff, too; I know it because they have an Orthodox Student Association, led, most likely, by a faculty member who is Orthodox. We never got to know them, though, again, because of my dear wife's strong "chip on the shoulder" against "religious people."

This problem might actually disappear in just a few years, when we both retire. Our daughter is getting married on May 24 this year, and she and her husband will live in Boston. Very likely, we - my wife and I - will move to Boston, too, and there we will most definitely befriend some Ukrainian Orthodox people. 

There are most certainly many well-educated Orthodox Christians in the Boston area; besides the seminary professors (who would totally get thrown out with "religious people," no?) there are many professors who are Orthodox Christians at the area universities.  You'll love being in the US' biggest University Town.
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Offline Gregory1958

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Re: No Passion (Holy) Week services and no Pascha for me this year...
« Reply #107 on: April 22, 2008, 06:46:11 PM »
greekis... wrote: Separate is inherently unequal. Nice rhetoric you have there but a) I've already heard the party line, try something different for a change, and b) it's a bunch of nonsense your, distopian theory has no bearing on reality.

Obviously you have already heard the "party line".  Your point is, uh, what?  That because you have heard it and rejected it then it cannot possibly be true?  LOL  What arrogance.

I am repeating the "party line" because it is true.  What else should I espouse, the paganism disguised as progress that calls the teachings of the Christian faith outdated, behind the times and socially unacceptable?  I am a Christian, after all.

As for the party line, I have heard yours many, many times. Heck, one can barely turn on the television or radio without hearing it.  Yes, indeed, it is very, very popular.  The broad road always is.

Your arguments are very, very weak, by the way.  Statements like, "you are just plain wrong" and "I've heard the party line before" and "It's your fault because civilization has left you behind and you have failed to put forth any effort to catch up" are just not arguments that are going to prove your point very well.  Someone said you are educated.  I'm surprised that this is the best you can do, being educated and all. 

I am really going to try to resist commenting on your statements, from now on.  I have doon a poor job, so far.  But, really, it is clear that your statements reflect a deep bias, an attempt to "Christianize" at least portions of modern, secular thought, and a disdain for those who hold to traditional Chrisitan teaching, at least when it comes to certain issues that just feel right to you.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2008, 07:04:30 PM by Gregory1958 »

Offline Tzimis

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Re: No Passion (Holy) Week services and no Pascha for me this year...
« Reply #108 on: April 22, 2008, 06:46:56 PM »

  As a former protestant minister, I had my fill of trying to be the final authority! 



Welcome to Orthodoxy and this forum Gregory. A little advice, if I may. Make sure you ware your bullet proof vest after hitting the post button. As I always do. :D
Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.

Offline Veniamin

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Re: No Passion (Holy) Week services and no Pascha for me this year...
« Reply #109 on: April 22, 2008, 06:53:08 PM »
Welcome to Orthodoxy and this forum Gregory. A little advice, if I may. Make sure you ware your bullet proof vest after hitting the post button. As I always do. :D

That's why we aim for your head. :P
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Offline Tzimis

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Re: No Passion (Holy) Week services and no Pascha for me this year...
« Reply #110 on: April 22, 2008, 07:01:20 PM »
That's why we aim for your head. :P

I also ware a cup for those occasions.
Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.

Offline GiC

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Re: No Passion (Holy) Week services and no Pascha for me this year...
« Reply #111 on: April 22, 2008, 07:04:48 PM »
I also ware a cup for those occasions.

LMAO...now that was good. :D ;)
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Offline Heorhij

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Re: No Passion (Holy) Week services and no Pascha for me this year...
« Reply #112 on: April 22, 2008, 07:05:09 PM »
Cleveland - thanks! I know! I love Boston already (sorry, Fr. Chris...:). BTW, several posters of this board live there! I look forward to meeting them!

GiC, Gregory, dear brothers, please, don't... I am sorry that my posts ignited this fiery exchange between you two. It's not worth it. After all, you are BOTH right. Yes, a Christian MUST defend his/her faith against neo-paganism, secularism and what not, and yes, a Christian MUST do it carefully, tactfully, without hurting or demeaning others.

Moderators, - I am very grateful to people for their very sound advice and for the great links to Paschal services. May I ask that you lock this thread, because I really don't want to provoke heated debates during the Holy Week. Whatever your decision, thank you.
Love never fails.

Offline Gregory1958

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Re: No Passion (Holy) Week services and no Pascha for me this year...
« Reply #113 on: April 22, 2008, 07:06:08 PM »
Demetrios wrote:  Welcome to Orthodoxy and this forum Gregory.

Thank you, Demetrios.  I have been Orthodox for almost 4 years, now, and I am so thankful for it!

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: No Passion (Holy) Week services and no Pascha for me this year...
« Reply #114 on: April 22, 2008, 07:09:05 PM »
Welcome to Orthodoxy and this forum Gregory. A little advice, if I may. Make sure you ware your bullet proof vest after hitting the post button. As I always do. :D

Well, at least a flame retardant jacket if taking greekischristian seriously, most of the time, (which few do).
"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

Offline Gregory1958

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Re: No Passion (Holy) Week services and no Pascha for me this year...
« Reply #115 on: April 22, 2008, 07:09:26 PM »
Heorhij wrote: "GiC, Gregory, dear brothers, please, don't... I am sorry that my posts ignited this fiery exchange between you two. It's not worth it. After all, you are BOTH right. Yes, a Christian MUST defend his/her faith against neo-paganism, secularism and what not, and yes, a Christian MUST do it carefully, tactfully, without hurting or demeaning others.

"Moderators, - I am very grateful to people for their very sound advice and for the great links to Paschal services. May I ask that you lock this thread, because I really don't want to provoke heated debates during the Holy Week. Whatever your decision, thank you."  
 
George, you are so right.  Please forgive me, George and all of my brothers and sisters, for engaging in this argument, especially during Holy Week.  God bless you, George, for your wonderful demeanor.  May the Lord make me more like that.

Gregory
« Last Edit: April 22, 2008, 07:10:15 PM by Gregory1958 »

Offline Gregory1958

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Re: No Passion (Holy) Week services and no Pascha for me this year...
« Reply #116 on: April 22, 2008, 07:12:01 PM »
By the way, not only am I now Orthodox, but also became a Godfather a week ago!  I had better stop this arguing before he can understand what I am saying!

Offline GiC

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Re: No Passion (Holy) Week services and no Pascha for me this year...
« Reply #117 on: April 22, 2008, 07:20:06 PM »
Obviously you have already heard the "party line".  Your point is, uh, what?  That because you have heard it and rejected it then it cannot possibly be true?  LOL  What arrogance.

How about the clear superiority of cultures that have adopted this ideology over those that have not? Societies that have embraced enlightenment thinking and egalitarianism have higher GDP's, higher standards of living, and longer life expectancies than those that have failed to adopt our values. Our our economic and social progress are strongly linked to our cultural and intellectual progress, they would be impossible without a fundamental respect for autonomy and individualism and, likewise, economic comfort causes moderation and tolerance.

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I am repeating the "party line" because it is true.  What else should I espouse, the paganism disguised as progress that calls the teachings of the Christian faith outdated, behind the times and socially unacceptable?  I am a Christian, after all.

Sounds similar to the arguments of the apologists for the particular institution in the antebellum South...I'm sure your type will go the same way.

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As for the party line, I have heard yours many, many times. Heck, one can barely turn on the television or radio without hearing it.  Yes, indeed, it is very, very popular.  The broad road always is.

I only listen to country music radio and I don't watch TV...so I guess I wouldn't know. But perhaps the script writers and myself read the same philosophers.

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Your arguments are very, very weak, by the way.  Statements like, "you are just plain wrong" and "I've heard the party line before" and "It's your fault because civilization has left you behind and you have failed to put forth any effort to catch up" are just not arguments that are going to prove your point very well.  Someone said you are educated.  I'm surprised that this is the best you can do, being educated and all.

My arguments are weak!?! Granted, arguing on account of social norms isn't the best of all possible arguments, but it's quite a step up from arguing based on what you think your imaginary friend in the sky told you.

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I am really going to try to resist commenting on your statements, from now on.  I have doon a poor job, so far.  But, really, it is clear that your statements reflect a deep bias, an attempt to "Christianize" at least portions of modern, secular thought, and a disdain for those who hold to traditional Chrisitan teaching, at least when it comes to certain issues that just feel right to you.

Well, respond or don't...your call. But if you're not here to discuss and debate, what are you here for?
"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry

Offline Tzimis

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Re: No Passion (Holy) Week services and no Pascha for me this year...
« Reply #118 on: April 22, 2008, 07:21:09 PM »
By the way, not only am I now Orthodox, but also became a Godfather a week ago!  I had better stop this arguing before he can understand what I am saying!
I hope you stick around. Congrats on becoming a godfather.
Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.

Offline GiC

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Re: No Passion (Holy) Week services and no Pascha for me this year...
« Reply #119 on: April 22, 2008, 07:24:09 PM »
GiC, Gregory, dear brothers, please, don't... I am sorry that my posts ignited this fiery exchange between you two. It's not worth it. After all, you are BOTH right. Yes, a Christian MUST defend his/her faith against neo-paganism, secularism and what not, and yes, a Christian MUST do it carefully, tactfully, without hurting or demeaning others.

Moderators, - I am very grateful to people for their very sound advice and for the great links to Paschal services. May I ask that you lock this thread, because I really don't want to provoke heated debates during the Holy Week. Whatever your decision, thank you.

George, I hope you don't take our friendly exchange too hard. It's debates like these that make it worth sticking around. ;) Of course, it doesn't matter to me whether it's holy week or not, but if it does to someone else I would understand their trying avoid debate (well, in theory I might understand...though I never found a time when I tried to avoid ti myself ;))
"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: No Passion (Holy) Week services and no Pascha for me this year...
« Reply #120 on: April 22, 2008, 07:26:09 PM »
By the way, not only am I now Orthodox, but also became a Godfather a week ago!  I had better stop this arguing before he can understand what I am saying!
Congratulations! Παντά Αχιος! (May you always be worthy!)
Good Pascha to you both!
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline Starlight

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Re: No Passion (Holy) Week services and no Pascha for me this year...
« Reply #121 on: April 22, 2008, 08:30:10 PM »
Dear Heorhij,
I am so sorry to hear about such a situation. My sincere sympathies. You are in my thoughts and prayers.

While sometimes I live in some areas longer, sometimes shorter, but currently I am in Boston and my total length of stay in this city equals almost ( 8 ) years. You will definitely love here. I second Cleveland's comment. Also, Saint Andrew's Ukrainian Orthodox Church is a great parish, and you will be a wonderful fit. Indeed, it is easy to become a fit there!

PrincessMommy, similarly, my sincere sympathies. You are in my prayers as well.



EDIT:  '8)' changed to '8 )' to eliminate unintended smiley  -PtA (sorry, PSBob)
« Last Edit: April 22, 2008, 11:28:06 PM by PeterTheAleut »

Offline Punch

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Re: No Passion (Holy) Week services and no Pascha for me this year...
« Reply #122 on: April 22, 2008, 09:33:21 PM »
But, like I said, so far she had only negative experience in dealing with religious people and she really, seriously dislikes them, virtually all of them.

In that regard, she and I have something in common.  Seems the Lord had similar feelings, considering the company He kept.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

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Re: No Passion (Holy) Week services and no Pascha for me this year...
« Reply #123 on: April 22, 2008, 09:40:11 PM »
I think you are partially right. I do need a reminder, every now and then, that "man's enemies are his relatives," etc. I know that Christ brought not peace but division ("sword"). I experience this "sword" every single day. But the thing is, how to react to this division, what to do about it. Perhaps the best strategy is not to do anything rash, dramatic, "in-your-face." Staying at home and celebrating Pascha with my wife would probably be a good idea. After all, she is a Ukrainian woman, and she loves old Ukrainian customs; we will paint eggs together, and fry stuffed sausage, and drink Luksusova (ahh, it's Polish, but we could not find any Ukrainian "horilka" anywhere, and we don't want "Stoli" for the life of us!!!). And I will listen to the audio links that the people from this group have so kindly provided, and she will listen, too, and I will cross her and bless her (btw, I do it every morning before going to work, and she does not mind!). And, as always, I'll just keep hoping in my heart, "maybe next year..." :)

Next year, Kyiv!
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

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Re: No Passion (Holy) Week services and no Pascha for me this year...
« Reply #124 on: April 22, 2008, 09:45:39 PM »
You mean your wife only has problems with religious people- never with non-religious ones? Has she ever read C.S.Lewis' Mere Christianity? What does she think about the Saints?  (forgive all these questions, George! :-[). What can we as Christians do better so as not to be offensive to people as your wife (although if we don't have a Phd obviously we won't stand a chance anyhow)?
+ Our dear sister Martha (Rosehip) passed away on Dec 20, 2010.  May her memory be eternal! +

Offline jlerms

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Re: No Passion (Holy) Week services and no Pascha for me this year...
« Reply #125 on: April 22, 2008, 10:27:02 PM »
Welcome Gregory and congratulations on becoming a godfather!

 :)Juliana

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: No Passion (Holy) Week services and no Pascha for me this year...
« Reply #126 on: April 22, 2008, 11:47:09 PM »
greekis... wrote: Separate is inherently unequal. Nice rhetoric you have there but a) I've already heard the party line, try something different for a change, and b) it's a bunch of nonsense your, distopian theory has no bearing on reality.

Obviously you have already heard the "party line".  Your point is, uh, what?  That because you have heard it and rejected it then it cannot possibly be true?  LOL  What arrogance.

I am repeating the "party line" because it is true.  What else should I espouse, the paganism disguised as progress that calls the teachings of the Christian faith outdated, behind the times and socially unacceptable?  I am a Christian, after all.

As for the party line, I have heard yours many, many times. Heck, one can barely turn on the television or radio without hearing it.  Yes, indeed, it is very, very popular.  The broad road always is.

Your arguments are very, very weak, by the way.  Statements like, "you are just plain wrong" and "I've heard the party line before" and "It's your fault because civilization has left you behind and you have failed to put forth any effort to catch up" are just not arguments that are going to prove your point very well.  Someone said you are educated.  I'm surprised that this is the best you can do, being educated and all. 

I am really going to try to resist commenting on your statements, from now on.  I have doon a poor job, so far.  But, really, it is clear that your statements reflect a deep bias, an attempt to "Christianize" at least portions of modern, secular thought, and a disdain for those who hold to traditional Chrisitan teaching, at least when it comes to certain issues that just feel right to you.
Well, Gregory, I hope you get the idea that GiC does NOT represent the viewpoint of most persons on this forum. His pov is purely his own. 8)
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Punch

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Re: No Passion (Holy) Week services and no Pascha for me this year...
« Reply #127 on: April 23, 2008, 01:02:06 AM »
Well, Gregory, I hope you get the idea that GiC does NOT represent the viewpoint of most persons on this forum. His pov is purely his own. 8)

Amen.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline GiC

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Re: No Passion (Holy) Week services and no Pascha for me this year...
« Reply #128 on: April 23, 2008, 01:32:26 AM »
Well, Gregory, I hope you get the idea that GiC does NOT represent the viewpoint of most persons on this forum. His pov is purely his own. 8)

Trust me Peter, considering the people who post here, I must say I'm quite glad I don't represent them. The fact that I'm amongst them is bad enough, as soon as I start identifying with them ideologically, I need to be taken infront of a brick wall and shot.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2008, 01:32:56 AM by greekischristian »
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Re: No Passion (Holy) Week services and no Pascha for me this year...
« Reply #129 on: April 23, 2008, 01:40:24 AM »
Trust me Peter, considering the people who post here, I must say I'm quite glad I don't represent them. The fact that I'm amongst them is bad enough, as soon as I start identifying with them ideologically, I need to be taken infront of a brick wall and shot.
Fortunately, I don't have an itchy trigger finger. ;D
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Offline Νεκτάριος

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Re: No Passion (Holy) Week services and no Pascha for me this year...
« Reply #130 on: April 23, 2008, 02:54:44 AM »
drink Luksusova (ahh, it's Polish, but we could not find any Ukrainian "horilka" anywhere, and we don't want "Stoli" for the life of us!!!).

The most sensible post of the thread  :)

All that's missing is a few bottles of Obolon'! 

Offline Heorhij

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Re: No Passion (Holy) Week services and no Pascha for me this year...
« Reply #131 on: April 23, 2008, 07:54:58 AM »
You mean your wife only has problems with religious people- never with non-religious ones? Has she ever read C.S.Lewis' Mere Christianity? What does she think about the Saints?  (forgive all these questions, George! :-[). What can we as Christians do better so as not to be offensive to people as your wife (although if we don't have a Phd obviously we won't stand a chance anyhow)?

Well, of course she had problems with secular, non-believing people as well, but, nonetheless, over years we acquired a number of very good friends (all non-believers), with whom she does not have any problems. But as for Christians, believers, those who admit that they believe in Christ, go to church, etc. - my wife could never be friends with even one such person. Somehow they always let her down very quickly, one way or other.

She will never read even one line of C.S. Lewis...
Love never fails.

Offline stewie

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Re: No Passion (Holy) Week services and no Pascha for me this year...
« Reply #132 on: April 23, 2008, 09:11:16 AM »
The anti-religion left-wing intellectual movement seems to be quite common among the educated class.  They look for "logic" and of course that is not compatible with faith.  And they are turned off by the political evangelical movement (as am I!)  I am blessed that my life has been touched by God in so many ways that I would be a fool to deny Him.  I feel sorry for anyone who has not seen God in this way.  I have many friends who share this opinion (most of whom I met at school).  They are still good people, but they are lacking this light in their lives.  I would, however, expect my views to be respected, and I can't help but see a tremendous amount of disrespect in not allowing someone to attend worship services at the most holy and blessed time of the year.

Offline GiC

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Re: No Passion (Holy) Week services and no Pascha for me this year...
« Reply #133 on: April 23, 2008, 09:32:36 AM »
The anti-religion left-wing intellectual movement seems to be quite common among the educated class.

Hmmm...go figure.

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They look for "logic" and of course that is not compatible with faith.

I guess that would depend on your faith, but you're right, logic generally isn't compatable with classical religion.

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And they are turned off by the political evangelical movement (as am I!)  I am blessed that my life has been touched by God in so many ways that I would be a fool to deny Him.  I feel sorry for anyone who has not seen God in this way.  I have many friends who share this opinion (most of whom I met at school).  They are still good people, but they are lacking this light in their lives.

How touching...really...

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I would, however, expect my views to be respected, and I can't help but see a tremendous amount of disrespect in not allowing someone to attend worship services at the most holy and blessed time of the year.

Why should religious views be specifically respected? You're asking for a level of respect that isn't generally given to people's opinions be they political opinions, opinions about music, opinions about food, etc. I mean, would you find it so terrible if his wife objected to him going to the communist party meeting out of town or to some Rap concert or, heck, to go see his favourite stripper...I mean, afterall, shouldn't one's views be respected on these things?
"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry

Offline stewie

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Re: No Passion (Holy) Week services and no Pascha for me this year...
« Reply #134 on: April 23, 2008, 09:39:37 AM »
Ideally, I'd love for my wife to respect my opinion on EVERYTHING.  Generally she does.

But I don't consider someone's religion to be equal to their political views or taste in music.  If you do, you have a gross misunderstanding of what place religion must take in your life.