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Author Topic: No Passion (Holy) Week services and no Pascha for me this year...  (Read 16503 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: April 21, 2008, 02:19:31 PM »

George,

I have two questions:

1.)  Why does your wife refuse to atend an Orthodox liturgy outside of town?

2.)  Why are you being a wimp and staying "home" just because your wife refuses to let you go?  Come on, MAN!  Smiley

Well, she generally dislikes going to church, any church, because she has this idea that the people in church would "lure" her into getting to know them, to stay with them for a meal etc. (and she hates this kind of socializing, she is usually bored to death from moment one), and that "they all want our money." She reluctantly agrees to go with me to services at the GOA mission parish in ~50 miles from where we live, but she would never agree to take a longer trip. And she would not let me go because she thinks it's "shameful" for me to demonstrate "this kind of fanaticism" and go alone, without my spouse.

As for being a wimp - well, I am... Sorry. I am a wimp, a sissy, a pushover, a doormat.  Angry
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« Reply #46 on: April 21, 2008, 02:31:45 PM »

Why are you being a wimp and staying "home" just because your wife refuses to let you go?  Come on, MAN!  Smiley

This is really sad that this isn't the first time in this thread that people have sought to define masculinity as being aggressive, domineering and emotionally abusive to women. 

I pray that I can have the same humility, patience and love that Heorhij has once I get married. 
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« Reply #47 on: April 21, 2008, 02:34:01 PM »

You're not a wimp at all, George.  I agree with Nektarios here... a real man doesn't just flex his muscles to get his way, even if it may be the right way.  You love your wife and it shows.  Ignore the testosterone junkies here.
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« Reply #48 on: April 21, 2008, 02:35:26 PM »


I pray that I can have the same humility, patience and love that Heorhij has once I get married. 

Thank you, Nektarios! I have to say though that it's not difficult for me. My wife is the best thing that ever happened to me in my whole life.
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« Reply #49 on: April 21, 2008, 03:11:29 PM »


George, the best you or any of us can do is just pray. 

I think Eofk had the best idea for this situation. It is really what gives the most comfort.

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« Reply #50 on: April 21, 2008, 04:39:23 PM »

Eofk wrote:  "You're not a wimp at all, George.  I agree with Nektarios here... a real man doesn't just flex his muscles to get his way, even if it may be the right way.  You love your wife and it shows.  Ignore the testosterone junkies here."

Now, hold on just a cotton pickin' moment.  Wink  I suppose you all think it is fine for his wife to refuse to let him go, but not fine for him to do what he wants, which is go to worship the risen Christ on Pascha!  What about his wife's testosterone level?  How about her "flexing her muscles"?  For some reason I am judged to be a man who is insecure and has to prove his manhood by flexing his muscles just because I suggested that ozgeorge stand up to his wife and do what he really wants to do.  You seem to think that he should cow-tow (sp?) to his wife's DEMANDS, but you don't see anything wrong with her standing up to her husband and flexing her muscles and demanding that he forsake his desire to attend church on Pascha.  Heck, why in the world should he be kept from worshipping God just because his wife doesn't see fit to do so?  It looks like the ol' reverse-chauvanism (sp?) is at work, here.  Your responses reflect a narrow-mindedness that is very worldly.

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« Reply #51 on: April 21, 2008, 04:44:35 PM »

^Roid rage?

I suggested that ozgeorge stand up to his wife
I don't have one......

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« Reply #52 on: April 21, 2008, 04:45:58 PM »

No, I didn't say anything of the sort that his wife was correct in her refusal to go.  But George (Heorhij) is displaying a level of understanding and love that you just don't see in people who force their loved ones to obey their wishes.  It seems to me that the *worst* way to sway his wife would be to twist her arm into going or to go without her, for that matter.  I can honestly say I'm no bra-burning, man-domineering feminist, I just know what it's like to have family members who are completely recalcitrant but are occasionally swayed by love and mercy.

Edited for grammar and completing a thought.  Smiley
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« Reply #53 on: April 21, 2008, 04:46:41 PM »

Eofk wrote:  "You're not a wimp at all, George.  I agree with Nektarios here... a real man doesn't just flex his muscles to get his way, even if it may be the right way.  You love your wife and it shows.  Ignore the testosterone junkies here."

Now, hold on just a cotton pickin' moment.  Wink  I suppose you all think it is fine for his wife to refuse to let him go, but not fine for him to do what he wants, which is go to worship the risen Christ on Pascha!  What about his wife's testosterone level?  How about her "flexing her muscles"?  For some reason I am judged to be a man who is insecure and has to prove his manhood by flexing his muscles just because I suggested that ozgeorge stand up to his wife and do what he really wants to do.  You seem to think that he should cow-tow (sp?) to his wife's DEMANDS, but you don't see anything wrong with her standing up to her husband and flexing her muscles and demanding that he forsake his desire to attend church on Pascha.  Heck, why in the world should he be kept from worshipping God just because his wife doesn't see fit to do so?  It looks like the ol' reverse-chauvanism (sp?) is at work, here.  Your responses reflect a narrow-mindedness that is very worldly.



I have a quick and serious question.  Are you married yourself, Gregory?
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« Reply #54 on: April 21, 2008, 05:03:41 PM »

I can honestly say I'm no bra-burning, man-domineering feminist, I just know what it's like to have family members who are completely recalcitrant but are occasionally swayed by love and mercy.

I certainly hope that I'm not bra-burning (I think my fiancee would be rather distressed if I started wearing her undergarments or burning them for that matter) nor a man-domineering feminist... it's funny how I got this wild idea from a radical selection of 2000 year old texts that humility, patience and love is the way to work through a dispute rather than force and authority. 
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« Reply #55 on: April 21, 2008, 05:08:41 PM »

*Nods enthusiastically*
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« Reply #56 on: April 21, 2008, 05:10:06 PM »

Eofk wrote:  "You're not a wimp at all, George.  I agree with Nektarios here... a real man doesn't just flex his muscles to get his way, even if it may be the right way.  You love your wife and it shows.  Ignore the testosterone junkies here."

Now, hold on just a cotton pickin' moment.  Wink  I suppose you all think it is fine for his wife to refuse to let him go, but not fine for him to do what he wants, which is go to worship the risen Christ on Pascha!  What about his wife's testosterone level?  How about her "flexing her muscles"?  For some reason I am judged to be a man who is insecure and has to prove his manhood by flexing his muscles just because I suggested that ozgeorge stand up to his wife and do what he really wants to do.  You seem to think that he should cow-tow (sp?) to his wife's DEMANDS, but you don't see anything wrong with her standing up to her husband and flexing her muscles and demanding that he forsake his desire to attend church on Pascha.  Heck, why in the world should he be kept from worshipping God just because his wife doesn't see fit to do so?  It looks like the ol' reverse-chauvanism (sp?) is at work, here.  Your responses reflect a narrow-mindedness that is very worldly.

Gregory, I am afraid you lump together two different people - George the moderator (from Australia, hence "Ozgeorge") and George a.k.a. Heorhij from Mississippi, USA, originally from Ukraine. Ozgeorge is not married - I (Heorhij) am, and it was me who initiated this thread.

As for "chauvinism in reverse" - no, I don't think it's the case, and I don't think I should "flex my muscle" in response to my wife flexing hers. That's a non-starter. EofK said it all.
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« Reply #57 on: April 21, 2008, 05:11:32 PM »

I certainly hope that I'm not bra-burning (I think my fiancee would be rather distressed if I started wearing her undergarments or burning them for that matter) nor a man-domineering feminist... it's funny how I got this wild idea from a radical selection of 2000 year old texts that humility, patience and love is the way to work through a dispute rather than force and authority. 

Two thumbs up, Nektarios!  Smiley
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« Reply #58 on: April 21, 2008, 05:44:56 PM »

No, I didn't say anything of the sort that his wife was correct in her refusal to go.  But George (Heorhij) is displaying a level of understanding and love that you just don't see in people who force their loved ones to obey their wishes.  It seems to me that the *worst* way to sway his wife would be to twist her arm into going or to go without her, for that matter.  I can honestly say I'm no bra-burning, man-domineering feminist, I just know what it's like to have family members who are completely recalcitrant but are occasionally swayed by love and mercy.

Edited for grammar and completing a thought.  Smiley

my understanding is not that she refuses to go but that she refuses to let him go.  There is a difference.  I don't like "flexing of muscles" from either side , it is a very sad thing indeed.  As someone who is in a similar situation as George, what would you be saying to me if my husband refused to let me go to Paschal services??    Is this really the way people in loving relationships should be treating each other? 

I think the next time his wife wants to go out on a girls night out or some such, he should turn the tables and see how she likes it. 
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« Reply #59 on: April 21, 2008, 05:47:54 PM »

I still think George has the right idea, though.  Patience and love. 
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« Reply #60 on: April 21, 2008, 05:51:16 PM »

my understanding is not that she refuses to go but that she refuses to let him go.  There is a difference.  I don't like "flexing of muscles" from either side , it is a very sad thing indeed.  As someone who is in a similar situation as George, what would you be saying to me if my husband refused to let me go to Paschal services??    Is this really the way people in loving relationships should be treating each other? 

I think the next time his wife wants to go out on a girls night out or some such, he should turn the tables and see how she likes it. 

But that would be "tit-for-tat..." Not terribly Christian... Smiley
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« Reply #61 on: April 21, 2008, 06:14:06 PM »

But that would be "tit-for-tat..." Not terribly Christian... Smiley

Well, I didn't mean for you to actually do it, George.  But certainly might be an appropriate time to bring up this whole Pascha experience.  From what you have told us about your wife, she is smart and loving.  I think if she see it in this light it may help her to understand how inappropriate it is for her to dictate how you celebrate a most precious holy day.
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« Reply #62 on: April 21, 2008, 06:25:14 PM »

Well, I didn't mean for you to actually do it, George.  But certainly might be an appropriate time to bring up this whole Pascha experience.  From what you have told us about your wife, she is smart and loving.  I think if she see it in this light it may help her to understand how inappropriate it is for her to dictate how you celebrate a most precious holy day.

Oh, sorry for misunderstanding you, PrincessMommy. Yes, you are probably right.
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« Reply #63 on: April 21, 2008, 08:19:19 PM »

No, I didn't say anything of the sort that his wife was correct in her refusal to go.  But George (Heorhij) is displaying a level of understanding and love that you just don't see in people who force their loved ones to obey their wishes.  It seems to me that the *worst* way to sway his wife would be to twist her arm into going or to go without her, for that matter.  I can honestly say I'm no bra-burning, man-domineering feminist, I just know what it's like to have family members who are completely recalcitrant but are occasionally swayed by love and mercy.

Edited for grammar and completing a thought.  Smiley

A couple of hundred to go shopping at the local mall and she would be on the next plane to the holy land with him, if need be. Wink
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« Reply #64 on: April 21, 2008, 08:39:04 PM »

^LOL!
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« Reply #65 on: April 21, 2008, 10:37:11 PM »

I still think that we need to be praying for God to guide Heorhij to know the best way to find peace with his wife that does not sacrifice his relationship with God.  One good solid prayer is more usful than all the advice the world has to offer. For how can we, mere mortals, actually know what Mrs. Heorhij needs at this time?
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« Reply #66 on: April 21, 2008, 10:39:24 PM »

By the way, Heorhij, do you prefer "Heorhij" or "George" as I've seen others use?
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« Reply #67 on: April 21, 2008, 10:52:54 PM »

Eofk wrote:  "It seems to me that the *worst* way to sway his wife would be to twist her arm into going or to go without her, for that matter."

I am not talking about flexing muscle on George's part. (George, I simply got your nic name mixed up earlier.)  I am talking about doing what is right, in spite of his wife's wishes.  It seems to me that somewhere The Lord said something about loving father, mother, son, daughter, etc. more than Him.  (re: Matthew 10:37ff).  The Lord also said, "no one who has left home or wife or brothers or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God will fail to receive many times as much in this age and, in the age to come, eternal life."  (re: Luke 18:29ff).  So, I ask you, my brothers and sisters, do not we Orthodox Christians believe the Master?  We are not even talking about anything as radical as George's leaving his wife and not returning!  We are simply discussing his staying home from Paschal liturgy because of his wife's wishes (pardon me for saying so, but rather earthly ones at that) or his attending Paschal Liturgy and then returning home to continue loving her!

It is not really a matter of loving his wife that we are discussing, now is it?  It is clear that he loves her.  If he goes to worship the risen Lord on this most holy of days, does that mean that he loves his wife any less?  I offer an emphatic "NO!"  The real question for him -- and for all of us -- is if he refuses (or if we do the same were we to face a similar situation) to do what he knows is right because he either is afraid of his wife (my original supposition) or if he wants to please his wife (my objectors supposition) then does he really love the Lord as He should.  Please forgive me, for I know that I don't love Him as I should.  I can look at my constant list of sins and realize that.  So, George, I am not judging you.  I am merely offering up something for you -- and all of us -- to think about.

Yes, Shultz, I am married.  And, no, I don't do everything she wants.  There are times when I do what I think I need to do, in spite of her protests.  Sometimes those things I do are selfishly motivated.  Sometimes, I hope, they are motivated by a desire to do what is needed.  I often leave her in bed and go to church, because she doesn't want to go.  I don't judge her, but neither am I going to neglect my soul because of her.  But, lest those in this forum that are proned to jump to quick conclusions (per the responses to my earlier statement), please allow me to say that I do many things to please my wife, including working two jobs to support her and my children.  I try to be considerate of her needs and desires, but I am not obligated to do everything she asks.  Neither is she obligated to do everything I ask.  Sometimes love is best expressed by saying "no".
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« Reply #68 on: April 22, 2008, 01:03:44 AM »

Eofk wrote:  "It seems to me that the *worst* way to sway his wife would be to twist her arm into going or to go without her, for that matter."

I am not talking about flexing muscle on George's part. (George, I simply got your nic name mixed up earlier.)  I am talking about doing what is right, in spite of his wife's wishes.  It seems to me that somewhere The Lord said something about loving father, mother, son, daughter, etc. more than Him.  (re: Matthew 10:37ff).  The Lord also said, "no one who has left home or wife or brothers or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God will fail to receive many times as much in this age and, in the age to come, eternal life."  (re: Luke 18:29ff).  So, I ask you, my brothers and sisters, do not we Orthodox Christians believe the Master?  We are not even talking about anything as radical as George's leaving his wife and not returning!  We are simply discussing his staying home from Paschal liturgy because of his wife's wishes (pardon me for saying so, but rather earthly ones at that) or his attending Paschal Liturgy and then returning home to continue loving her!

It is not really a matter of loving his wife that we are discussing, now is it?  It is clear that he loves her.  If he goes to worship the risen Lord on this most holy of days, does that mean that he loves his wife any less?  I offer an emphatic "NO!"  The real question for him -- and for all of us -- is if he refuses (or if we do the same were we to face a similar situation) to do what he knows is right because he either is afraid of his wife (my original supposition) or if he wants to please his wife (my objectors supposition) then does he really love the Lord as He should.  Please forgive me, for I know that I don't love Him as I should.  I can look at my constant list of sins and realize that.  So, George, I am not judging you.  I am merely offering up something for you -- and all of us -- to think about.

Yes, Shultz, I am married.  And, no, I don't do everything she wants.  There are times when I do what I think I need to do, in spite of her protests.  Sometimes those things I do are selfishly motivated.  Sometimes, I hope, they are motivated by a desire to do what is needed.  I often leave her in bed and go to church, because she doesn't want to go.  I don't judge her, but neither am I going to neglect my soul because of her.  But, lest those in this forum that are proned to jump to quick conclusions (per the responses to my earlier statement), please allow me to say that I do many things to please my wife, including working two jobs to support her and my children.  I try to be considerate of her needs and desires, but I am not obligated to do everything she asks.  Neither is she obligated to do everything I ask.  Sometimes love is best expressed by saying "no".

While there are several unkind, humiliating, and diminutive things I would absolutely love to say to you, as this is a public forum I shall refrain and simply reply with the words of St. John:

'If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?'

It would seem to me that you do not fully grasp the concept of love of neighbour.
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« Reply #69 on: April 22, 2008, 01:22:43 AM »

Before this turns uglier, let's all just take a breather.  We're rapidly approaching Pascha and should be uplifting each other instead of what's beginning to happen.  I'm not judging anyone, nor am I judging what's been said (though I would like to point out again that our dear brother Heorhij simply asked for our prayers for his particular dilema.)  Just think three times about what you what you want to say before you say it and recall that everything we say is being recorded- on this forum and by the angels.
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« Reply #70 on: April 22, 2008, 01:26:40 AM »

I think if Heorhij's wife's refusal to let her husband attend services was resulting in Heorhij drifting away from God, then we can rouse up the troops and come to the rescue. Heorhij has demonstrated to the T through his posts on this forum that he is mature, capable and knows when and how to ask for help. Perhaps we all should have faith in him that he knows how to solve much of this on his own, with the help of God. He is only asking us to pray for him, to go to the Father we share with Heorhij to encourage him to remain steadfast. Do you really think it's helpful or even smart to call a struggling Christian a wimp because he believes going back to the 50's concept of manly might is not going to work? I believe that if Heorhij were truly a wimp, he'd have kept his mouth shut and we would have learned nothing of his situation.
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« Reply #71 on: April 22, 2008, 01:42:10 AM »

I think if Heorhij's wife's refusal to let her husband attend services was resulting in Heorhij drifting away from God, then we can rouse up the troops and come to the rescue. Heorhij has demonstrated to the T through his posts on this forum that he is mature, capable and knows when and how to ask for help. Perhaps we all should have faith in him that he knows how to solve much of this on his own, with the help of God. He is only asking us to pray for him, to go to the Father we share with Heorhij to encourage him to remain steadfast. Do you really think it's helpful or even smart to call a struggling Christian a wimp because he believes going back to the 50's concept of manly might is not going to work? I believe that if Heorhij were truly a wimp, he'd have kept his mouth shut and we would have learned nothing of his situation.
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Good point.  Regardless of what we may think personally of George's decision, it is his decision and his decision ALONE to make.  He and he alone will have to answer for this decision, for good or for ill.  This is not a decision we can make for him, nor do we do well to be armchair spiritual fathers and mothers offering words of guidance via a medium as impersonal as an internet discussion forum, especially considering that this is not what George requested of us.  He's made up his mind what he's going to do, and whether or not we agree with his decision, the best and maybe the only thing we can do is pray that God blesses his course of action.

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« Reply #72 on: April 22, 2008, 01:57:43 AM »



"Don't judge a man until you've walked a mile in his shoes."
That way you'll be a mile ahead of him AND you'll have his shoes!  Cheesy  Sorry, I couldn't resist...
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« Reply #73 on: April 22, 2008, 02:02:20 AM »

That way you'll be a mile ahead of him AND you'll have his shoes!  Cheesy  Sorry, I couldn't resist...
Yuk, yuk, yuk! laugh  (Or is that just plain yuck? Tongue)
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« Reply #74 on: April 22, 2008, 02:33:08 AM »

Punch, I know... I wish I could change her and I am really trying very hard to do all I can.
So yes, I am sinning greatly by allowing her to do exactly what you said - heaping sin on herself. But I don't know how to change this, save keeping my own faith, sticking to my prayer rule (trying to pray even when she deliberately turns the TV on to the max, or begins vacuum-cleaning right next to the corner in our living room where the icons are Smiley), fasting, and being very good and kind and tender to her. And also keeping in touch with you guys through this Web forum. Smiley

Heorhij,

Thank you for your response.  I am happy that you took my words in the manner that they were intended.  Let me make clear that in my mind you are no coward.  This is strictly a spiritual matter and not some macho contest or battle between the sexes.  Also, I would not venture to comment on this situation if I did not come to care for you through your posts.  I believe that love for another requires more than prayer, it requires action.  I have little time or use for those who would see a starving man and "pray for him" rather than feed him.  Those are the cowards, not those like you who bear a cross.  BTW - I am married with three children and have been for 27 years to the same (and only) woman.

Heorhij, you know that you cannot change your wife - only the Holy Spirit can do that.  Your own words show that she had rejected God (at least for now - we cannot see the future).  You fear that going to Liturgy will somehow turn her away.  She is already there.  Perhaps a show of resolve on your part may actually have the opposite affect of what you fear.  Pray to God to show you this. I have a similar situation in my own home.  My wife does not like to go to Church with me.  She is willing to have reader's services at home, so this is an improvement over your situation.  If, after prayer, you believe that your attending the Liturgy is, indeed, more damaging to her soul, then consider praying the Reader's service at home yourself.  If you need the materials, PM me and I will see that you get them.

Remember the story of Adam and Eve.  Many people on this list have tried to turn this into some macho / wimp issue, or their liberalism has given them "ears that cannot hear" and "eyes that cannot see".  Adam had a choice to make.  By putting his love for Eve over his love for God, the whole creation fell.  The Scriptures and the Fathers continuously speak of "Adam's fall".  Was it not Eve who sinned first?  Yes, but it was Adam, as the spiritual head of the family, who is held accountable for the deed. 

Perhaps going out of town and leaving your wife at home is too much of an "in your face" act at this point.  I can see that, and your response to my original post with its explanation of your thoughts and motives gives me comfort in siding with your decision at this time.  However, I would celebrate the Pascha at home.  If your wife protests, I would have no reservations in telling her that it was for love of her that you stayed home.  She should show her love for you, if there is any, by not forbidding you to worship your God on this the most Holy of days.  Perhaps, by the Grace of God, and through the intercessions of the Theotokos and the Holy Fathers, her heart will be softened and you will find peace.  If not, you must do what is right in your heart.  You have the scriptures and you have the Fathers to guide you.

May God Bless you and keep you brother Heorhij.  I pray that my words have been of some help to you.  They were never meant to deride you or to make sport of you.  To maintain the Faith in the face of attacks so close to you requires a strength far beyond my own.
 
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« Reply #75 on: April 22, 2008, 02:58:25 AM »

Господе Помилуј.........SmileyCentral.com" border="0SmileyCentral.com" border="0
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« Reply #76 on: April 22, 2008, 07:30:05 AM »

By the way, Heorhij, do you prefer "Heorhij" or "George" as I've seen others use?

Either way is fine. George is simplier for English-speaking folks to pronounce, and besides my dad, who was somewhat an Anglophile, used to call me George even when I was little. Heorhij is my official full first name, as written in my birth certificate, but it's the same Greek name as George (Yorios).
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« Reply #77 on: April 22, 2008, 07:31:21 AM »

Perhaps going out of town and leaving your wife at home is too much of an "in your face" act at this point.  I can see that, and your response to my original post with its explanation of your thoughts and motives gives me comfort in siding with your decision at this time.  However, I would celebrate the Pascha at home.  If your wife protests, I would have no reservations in telling her that it was for love of her that you stayed home.  She should show her love for you, if there is any, by not forbidding you to worship your God on this the most Holy of days.  Perhaps, by the Grace of God, and through the intercessions of the Theotokos and the Holy Fathers, her heart will be softened and you will find peace.  If not, you must do what is right in your heart.  You have the scriptures and you have the Fathers to guide you.

Thank you so much! That's what I will do, precisely!
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« Reply #78 on: April 22, 2008, 07:35:09 AM »

Heorhij,
My suggestion is also to just keep praying, any way you can.

I have come to realize over time, every one of us humans has a major problem to grapple with in life. A trial, a dilemma a tribulation as some put it, or some major hangup that we routinely face in life. I prefer to say we all have our own Monster to deal with. What it is for each of us is different, but the unifying element is that we all have one to face. For me, it is depression. I won't likely ever conquer it, but  I will NOT let it conquer me. For others, it might be chronic health issues, or resisting a major temptation, or any number of other possibilities. I am not trying to indicate anything about your wife at all, but rather think that right now, your problem to contend with is the internal struggle of maintaining your faith under difficult circumstances.
While my philosophy of life doesn't offer much advice, I do find comfort in knowing that God will never give never allow us to have a problem that is more than we can handle.

Oh Lord God, have mercy on us, who are sinners. Help us to know what we should do about the problem most on our mind that will bring us closer to you. Lord have mercy. Amen.

*changed a slight wording* twice.
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« Reply #79 on: April 22, 2008, 08:17:48 AM »

greekischristi wrote:  "While there are several unkind, humiliating, and diminutive things I would absolutely love to say to you, as this is a public forum I shall refrain and simply reply with the words of St. John:

'If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?'

It would seem to me that you do not fully grasp the concept of love of neighbour."


I understand that we live in a culture where it is not popular to be so direct.  Forgive me for not couching my comments in more flowery speech.  It is not, however, unloving to speak the truth.  I thought I had made it clear that I was not judging George at all, having admited that my love for The Lord is gravely lacking.  But, for me to not point out the words of the Lord would be a very unloving thing to do.  Someone mentioned that George knows his situation much better than we and they are correct.  If George is comfortable with his decision to not attend Pascha, then far be it from me to correct him.  However, it was necessary that someone remind him of the words of the Lord.  Obviously, all he was going to get from everyone else on here was the "I'm OK, You're OK" modernist approach.  Perhaps both sides of the picture is what George needs, so that he is better able to make an informed and thoughtful decision.

As for greekischristi's comment about my having failed to grasp the concept of brotherly love:  Maybe I have.  I am a terrible sinner, to be sure.  But, it amazes me that you are able to draw that conclusion based on a few comments in a forum.  But, what amazes me even more is that you have been appointed my judge!  I failed to get the memo about that one.

As for calling him a "wimp", that was a friendly, man-to-man jab.  I even accompanied it with a cute little smiley face.  I can understand the women in here not getting that.  It is very common, however, with men to tease one another while making a point.  My point was that it would be alright for him to tell his wife that he was going to Paschal liturgy in spite of her "demands".  It was a way of encouraging him to be strong.  (No, I am not talking about flexing muscles, so everyone calm down. Smiley ).
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« Reply #80 on: April 22, 2008, 08:20:42 AM »

Having said all of that, brothers and sisters please forgive me for any offences.  May God bless you all.

Gregory
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« Reply #81 on: April 22, 2008, 08:27:47 AM »

  Obviously, all he was going to get from everyone else on here was the "I'm OK, You're OK" modernist approach. 

I really rather think that I haven't said anything one way or the other as far as going or not going, or anything else about his decisions.  The only thing I've advocated the whole time, is to pray for guidance, with the implied belief that such a prayer will be answered.
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« Reply #82 on: April 22, 2008, 08:28:55 AM »

by the way, I'm not really irritated, just feeling a bit unnoticed and discounted.  Smiley
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« Reply #83 on: April 22, 2008, 09:21:46 AM »

by the way, I'm not really irritated, just feeling a bit unnoticed and discounted.  Smiley

Welcome (again!) to OC.net!  Wink
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« Reply #84 on: April 22, 2008, 09:53:43 AM »

I understand that we live in a culture where it is not popular to be so direct.  Forgive me for not couching my comments in more flowery speech.  It is not, however, unloving to speak the truth.  I thought I had made it clear that I was not judging George at all, having admited that my love for The Lord is gravely lacking.  But, for me to not point out the words of the Lord would be a very unloving thing to do.  Someone mentioned that George knows his situation much better than we and they are correct.

As opposed to my overly flowery and restrained rhetoric? LOL...I was criticizing content, not style, trust me on that one. Wink

Quote
If George is comfortable with his decision to not attend Pascha, then far be it from me to correct him.  However, it was necessary that someone remind him of the words of the Lord.  Obviously, all he was going to get from everyone else on here was the "I'm OK, You're OK" modernist approach.  Perhaps both sides of the picture is what George needs, so that he is better able to make an informed and thoughtful decision.

Actually, I don't see it necessary to present that side, we've worked too long and too hard in undermining it.

Quote
As for greekischristi's comment about my having failed to grasp the concept of brotherly love:  Maybe I have.  I am a terrible sinner, to be sure.  But, it amazes me that you are able to draw that conclusion based on a few comments in a forum.  But, what amazes me even more is that you have been appointed my judge!  I failed to get the memo about that one.

Hmmm...must have gotten lost in the mail. I'll make sure and post you directly when I get the role of executioner approved. Grin

Quote
As for calling him a "wimp", that was a friendly, man-to-man jab.  I even accompanied it with a cute little smiley face.  I can understand the women in here not getting that.  It is very common, however, with men to tease one another while making a point.  My point was that it would be alright for him to tell his wife that he was going to Paschal liturgy in spite of her "demands".  It was a way of encouraging him to be strong.  (No, I am not talking about flexing muscles, so everyone calm down. Smiley ).

Yes, hurmour is an integral part of human discourse, but humour involving such things as racist or sexist jokes tend not to be appropriate for public discussion. Your comments, even made in humour, carry cultural connotations that civilization has long been working to overcome and, as such, are considered archaic and offensive. I may be able to tell a racist joke, it could be funny and make people laugh, it may even help me get my point across, but it would still be offensive and inappropriate...your comments are no different and, hence, the reaction you received.

I think the most disturbing part is your failure to recognize why so many of us took offence to your comments, it's disturbing enough to find people who understand the cultural issues and insist on persisting in their misogynistic weltanschauung in spite of the cultural and social expectations of the civilized world...it's truly frightening to encounter people ignorant of these social norms and cultural expectations.

Perhaps you'd be more comfortable if we settled this debate with a duel (or street brawl), as opposed to intellectual discourse?
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« Reply #85 on: April 22, 2008, 10:14:34 AM »

by the way, I'm not really irritated, just feeling a bit unnoticed and discounted.  Smiley

It doesn't take much to get noticed around here. Cheesy

I suggested to George that showing his love to his wife would allow her to reciprocate. Coach or Prada would work just fine. Wink
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« Reply #86 on: April 22, 2008, 10:19:48 AM »

Welcome (again!) to OC.net!  Wink

Thanks, (again, unless I forgot to type it the first time. In which case, forgive me.) I think you might have miss-understood me a bit. I was only refering to this one discussion, and then only to being lumped in with the "everyone"  part. As far as the forum goes, I've been having a great time socializing. Grin
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« Reply #87 on: April 22, 2008, 10:37:30 AM »

I really rather think that I haven't said anything one way or the other as far as going or not going, or anything else about his decisions.  The only thing I've advocated the whole time, is to pray for guidance, with the implied belief that such a prayer will be answered.

I am sorry, I really should have replied earlier! Yes, dear RLNM, I have read your comments and I absolutely agree about the necessity to pray, and about this "one major" thing that we need to struggle with. Yes, indeed, maybe for me this one "thing" is that God put me in the circumstances where I feel very alone in my faith, where all people who surround me and communicate with me in real life are non-believers.

It is a hard struggle. The way it goes... well, sometimes I feel almost like some kind of "electricity" between my wife and me, or between my mother and me (when we talk on the phone), or between some of my closest, dearest friends and me. For example, a couple of weeks ago I was talking to a colleague at work in the presence of my wife, and mentioned that English-speaking people have difficulties pronouncing the sound conveyed by the Greek "xi," like in "Khristos" ("Xristos"), so they say Christos or Kristos. That was just an example, I did not mean to talk about religion, faith, but it was enough for my dear wife to become mad and to say, a bit later, "AGAIN, AGAIN you and your stupid prozelytizing, your Christ-Christ-Christ-Christ-Christ... can't you just stop shaming me in front of other people with your fanaticism???"

Well, so, here I am. That's my reality. I cannot change it, I cannot escape. So, I'll just keep praying...

Thank you again for your kind support!
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« Reply #88 on: April 22, 2008, 10:48:16 AM »

greekischristian wrote:  "As opposed to my overly flowery and restrained rhetoric? LOL...I was criticizing content, not style, trust me on that one."

You were criticizing content, huh?  Well, then I am beginning to see even more clearly that your viewpoint is heavily skewed by the current worldly thought, rather than the Christian faith.  That explains much to me.  After all, I was refering to the words of The Lord, Himself when you took issue with what I had said.

greekischristian wrote:  "Yes, hurmour is an integral part of human discourse, but humour involving such things as racist or sexist jokes tend not to be appropriate for public discussion. Your comments, even made in humour, carry cultural connotations that civilization has long been working to overcome and, as such, are considered archaic and offensive."

Obviously you have missed my point, entirely.  But, worse than that, your allowing the culture to dictate your beliefs is truely disturbing.  There are some of us who still believe that that man is the head of the wife, as the Scripture tells us.  (After all, we are ORTHODOX!)  This does not mean, lest you jump to yet another conclusion, that I beleive that men should be domineering toward women and lord it over them.  (I am quite certain, based on your previous comments, that you automatically assume that is what I mean.)  We are to love our wives as Christ loved the Church.  It does mean, however, that men are to be leaders in the family, particularly when it comes to spiritual matters.  Since we have been talking about a spiritual matter -- whether or not George should go to the Paschal liturgy or stay home with his wife who demands that he stay home -- I was suggesting that he be the man, i.e., the head of the home.  If you, because of your skewed and worldly vision of the husband/wife relationship misunderstood, then I fail to see where that is my fault.

I will not continue to argue with you about this.  If you want to have a worldly view, then that is your choice.  It would behoove you, however, to understand the Christian view, not the I'll-try-to-fit-the-worldy/feminist-view-into-my-Christian-faith view.  But, that is your choice.  I am not going to discuss it any further.

George, I humbly ask you to forgive me if I have offended you.  

Gregory
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« Reply #89 on: April 22, 2008, 10:52:17 AM »

I understand that we live in a culture where it is not popular to be so direct.  Forgive me for not couching my comments in more flowery speech.  It is not, however, unloving to speak the truth.  I thought I had made it clear that I was not judging George at all, having admited that my love for The Lord is gravely lacking.  But, for me to not point out the words of the Lord would be a very unloving thing to do.  Someone mentioned that George knows his situation much better than we and they are correct.  If George is comfortable with his decision to not attend Pascha, then far be it from me to correct him.  However, it was necessary that someone remind him of the words of the Lord.  Obviously, all he was going to get from everyone else on here was the "I'm OK, You're OK" modernist approach.  Perhaps both sides of the picture is what George needs, so that he is better able to make an informed and thoughtful decision.

I think you are partially right. I do need a reminder, every now and then, that "man's enemies are his relatives," etc. I know that Christ brought not peace but division ("sword"). I experience this "sword" every single day. But the thing is, how to react to this division, what to do about it. Perhaps the best strategy is not to do anything rash, dramatic, "in-your-face." Staying at home and celebrating Pascha with my wife would probably be a good idea. After all, she is a Ukrainian woman, and she loves old Ukrainian customs; we will paint eggs together, and fry stuffed sausage, and drink Luksusova (ahh, it's Polish, but we could not find any Ukrainian "horilka" anywhere, and we don't want "Stoli" for the life of us!!!). And I will listen to the audio links that the people from this group have so kindly provided, and she will listen, too, and I will cross her and bless her (btw, I do it every morning before going to work, and she does not mind!). And, as always, I'll just keep hoping in my heart, "maybe next year..." Smiley
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