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Author Topic: No Passion (Holy) Week services and no Pascha for me this year...  (Read 16277 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: April 19, 2008, 07:12:18 PM »

My dear wife categorically refuses to go to an Orthodox church out of town for this year's Holy Week services or for Pascha, and categorically refuses to let me go.

Maybe next year... Please pray for us...
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« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2008, 07:23:40 PM »

Dear Brother-you are in my thoughts and prayers!!
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« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2008, 08:18:07 PM »

Heorhij, that must be so disappointing! I am sorry.  You are in my prayers.   Embarrassed
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« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2008, 10:03:22 PM »

God be with you, Professor.

If any consolation, I'm not attending all, if not most of Holy Week either, not even Palm Sunday (pray that I may have time to do any day).  I'll only be able to have time for Easter liturgy.

God bless you.
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« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2008, 10:17:06 PM »

Lord, have mercy, and may He give you the strength that you need!
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« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2008, 10:20:06 PM »

Thank you guys. Dear Mina, I'm just George; "Professor" with a capital P is way too much. Smiley May I ask, why can't you attend more services?
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« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2008, 10:35:38 PM »

I'm sorry that you're having this happen, George.  Sad 

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« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2008, 10:38:05 PM »

I am sorry as well friend.  I hope you find the strength you need. 
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« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2008, 10:41:10 PM »

I pray that you have patience with the situation at hand and know that our merciful Lord knows of your wish that you could attend the services.

Juliana
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« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2008, 02:48:20 AM »

Thank you guys. Dear Mina, I'm just George; "Professor" with a capital P is way too much. Smiley May I ask, why can't you attend more services?

Medical school.  I can't afford a day without studying, especially these days.  As one of my friends here joke around saying, "Women, what women?  My only woman is medical school.  I spend 24 hours a day, 7 days a week with her."
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« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2008, 03:03:12 AM »

Medical school.  I can't afford a day without studying, especially these days.  As one of my friends here joke around saying, "Women, what women?  My only woman is medical school.  I spend 24 hours a day, 7 days a week with her."
Well, I guess it beats a friend of mine who was instructed by his priest to celebrate the non-clergy parts of all the Holy Week and Pascha services at home a few years ago because his whole family had chicken pox.  (His bout with the disease as a child made him immune.) Tongue
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« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2008, 04:57:03 AM »

This year with the high cost of gasoline, we will be doing the Bridegroom services for ourselves, the kids and grandkids at the family icon corner.  the hundred miles round trip gets to be really expensive on a limited budget.  We will make it to the  services after Wednesday thru Pascha.  We serve the Agape service at a park near our home and usually have about 25 non-orthodox attend the service and then share our Pascha Feast with them, otherwise we would be on the road constantly Holy saturday thru Agape---not to mention sleeping the 10 of us in a single car is really too much of a sacrifice for these tired bones.

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« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2008, 07:39:16 AM »

I'm not gona lie.  It is really inspiring to hear some of your stories in regards to your struggles for Holy Week.  Makes me realize how spoiled I am, and ungrateful! 

I hope you guys achieve your crowns in heaven.   angel
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« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2008, 10:19:54 AM »

I suggest that those of us who are able to attend Services this week light an extra candle for each of our friends here who cannot attend.
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« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2008, 10:44:24 AM »

Well, I guess it beats a friend of mine who was instructed by his priest to celebrate the non-clergy parts of all the Holy Week and Pascha services at home a few years ago because his whole family had chicken pox.  (His bout with the disease as a child made him immune.) Tongue

ouch....I also have to say, I didn't write enough, but I do live far.  The closest Orthodox Church (Antiochian) is an hour away and the closest Coptic Church for me is an hour and a half away.  That's why I can't "afford" to lose time (and gas money as well).

But my God, I feel bad for the pox people.  I would rather be healthy and studying than have nothing to study for and get the pox.

God bless.
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« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2008, 03:30:52 PM »

George my condolences.  I will light a candle for you though, maybe next year you will be able to attend, God willing.
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« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2008, 04:09:02 PM »

Lord, have mercy, and may He give you the strength that you need!
Yea. The strength to stand up to his wife.
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« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2008, 04:23:34 PM »

Lord have mercy, and grant to Your servant George strength and clarity of mind.
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« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2008, 04:47:52 PM »

But my God, I feel bad for the pox people.  I would rather be healthy and studying than have nothing to study for and get the pox.
No need to feel sorry for them now, for the incident I mentioned happened about four years ago. Smiley
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« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2008, 05:24:59 PM »

Yea. The strength to stand up to his wife.

You know, Christ said that whoever loves his relatives more than Him, is not worthy of Him. But he did not command us to love them LESS than Him. And "standing up" to my wife is not my kind of loving her.
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« Reply #20 on: April 20, 2008, 09:14:41 PM »

You know, Christ said that whoever loves his relatives more than Him, is not worthy of Him. But he did not command us to love them LESS than Him. And "standing up" to my wife is not my kind of loving her.
Love happens too be a two way street. After all. It's not like you are asking her to go to a strip club. Sometimes we have to stick too our guns.  We have too show that we mean business. Wink

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« Reply #21 on: April 20, 2008, 10:42:10 PM »

You know, Christ said that whoever loves his relatives more than Him, is not worthy of Him. But he did not command us to love them LESS than Him. And "standing up" to my wife is not my kind of loving her.

Allowing her to heap sin upon herself by 1) failing to submit to your authority as head of the household and 2) forbidding you to worship on the most Holy of Holy days is not love, either.
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« Reply #22 on: April 20, 2008, 11:05:54 PM »

Brothers in Christ,  Heorhij didn't ask us what we think.  Nor did he ask our advice.  He simply asked that we pray for him and his wife; anything beyond our offering kind words (right or wrong) and prayers is simply not our business IMO.  Undecided  BTW, Brother Heorhij, I'll be praying for you.  Smiley

In Christ,

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« Reply #23 on: April 20, 2008, 11:08:14 PM »

My dear wife categorically refuses to go to an Orthodox church out of town for this year's Holy Week services or for Pascha, and categorically refuses to let me go.

Maybe next year... Please pray for us...

Lord, have mercy on the both of you.  God willing, maybe things will turn around in time.  Smiley  You will both be in my prayers, George.
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« Reply #24 on: April 20, 2008, 11:15:46 PM »

Lord, have mercy on your servants!

We are being hit with a spring snow storm here.....a total of almost 3 feet by the time the week is out....my last exam is on Wednesday and I start summer vacation with my world looking more like Christmas....

I will be able to make it to most of the services this week although between the bus system and weather and other circumstances I haven't decided precisely which parish hehe.

I will be able to attend Pascha as well, although certain circumstances have proven once again that the Evil One is "interested" in me....

With Love in Christ
Ivan

P.S. George, if you have access to iTunes, might I recommend purchasing "Chants of the Russian Orthodox Church: Choirs and Monks of Kiev Pechersk Lavra". It's amazing.
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« Reply #25 on: April 20, 2008, 11:50:23 PM »

Heorhij,

You have my sympathy and prayers as well. I also don't expect to make it to any Holy Week or Pascha services. I did make it to services today, which was wonderful (first Divine Liturgy in years) and unexpected. But with the time effect of the distance as much as the gas prices, I don't expect more. But... Don't give up hope! At the end of last week, it looked like we wouldn't be able to make it to church at all for several weeks. Since this bugged me so to speak, I made a point of praying harder and more diligently than is typical for me. ( I am working on that... honest!)  Well, later that day, I saw a rainbow!  I know that sounds normal, but it isn't. It was 2:00 in the afternoon and the sky was as clear and blue as could be! There was just one or two of those high wispy clouds.  And then everything worked out so we could go! So, my long winded point is keep praying and don't give in to despondency.
 
 
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« Reply #26 on: April 21, 2008, 03:20:57 AM »

George asked for prayers not advice.

Lord have mercy on George and his wife and their situation; which is one only they know and understand.
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« Reply #27 on: April 21, 2008, 04:44:05 AM »

George asked for prayers not advice.

Lord have mercy on George and his wife and their situation; which is one only they know and understand.

Well, he got both.  Consider it a bonus.
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« Reply #28 on: April 21, 2008, 05:06:54 AM »

Well, he got both.  Consider it a bonus.

A bonus, or extremely rude?  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #29 on: April 21, 2008, 08:54:07 AM »

My dear wife categorically refuses to go to an Orthodox church out of town for this year's Holy Week services or for Pascha, and categorically refuses to let me go.

Maybe next year... Please pray for us...

In the meantime, you may be able to see some or all of the services online, if you wish.  I don't know if the parishes are broadcasting the weekday services, but it may be worth a try, if you'd like.  Here's a link to a short list of parishes:
http://www.goarch.org/en/Chapel/live.asp
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« Reply #30 on: April 21, 2008, 09:20:21 AM »

Well, he got both.  Consider it a bonus.

Well, you've surely illustrated the point that you get what you pay for. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #31 on: April 21, 2008, 10:31:34 AM »

In the meantime, you may be able to see some or all of the services online, if you wish.  I don't know if the parishes are broadcasting the weekday services, but it may be worth a try, if you'd like.  Here's a link to a short list of parishes:
http://www.goarch.org/en/Chapel/live.asp

Thank you, Cleveland, that's most helpful.
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« Reply #32 on: April 21, 2008, 10:50:34 AM »

Allowing her to heap sin upon herself by 1) failing to submit to your authority as head of the household and 2) forbidding you to worship on the most Holy of Holy days is not love, either.

Punch, I know... I wish I could change her and I am really trying very hard to do all I can. However, at the moment, she, even though she is a cradle infant-baptized Orthodox, is not a believer. She has exactly ZERO belief in anything written in Scriptures, conisiders all that an idle and harmful myth invented to facilitate the exploitation of people by priests and churches. She says that there may be a god, but there is absolutely no way for us to know whether this god is or is not. What she really believes in is all this mosaic of "progressive" politically correct ideas, like that a husband and a wife must share both responsibilities and authority, that no one should be forced to believe or not believe in any myths (that is, religions), and that we all simply need to be honest and kind and good to each other.

At this stage of our life, she is terribly vulnerable to any outward manifestation of religious beliefs by me. There are reasons for that, and I am very much to blame. In the past, I used to be susceptible to different kinds of non-Orthodox teachings; there was even a time when I listened to Jehovah's Witnesses (thank God, not for long - but she can't forget that). About four and a half years ago, I decided that I was a Protestant, and was baptized in a Presbyterian church, and became a member and an elser there, and dragged her into membership there. So, right now, my wife might fear that this "Orthodoxy" is just a next emotional attachment on my part, a next "hype" if you will.

Another thing is, she is very entrenched in thinking that only dumb, un-developed, un-sophisticated people do things like praying at home, signing themselves with the sign of the cross in public places, etc. Partially, this is so because we live in the deep South of the US, where religiosity is really, at least to some extent, a mark of being a redneck, a person who either has little brain or does not have the habit of using the brain. All our friends are "anti-rednecks," mostly international graduate students and faculty from Europe (France, Germany, the Netherllands, Portugal, Bulgaria), all having a "chip on the shoulder" against what they perceive as this stupid redneck provincial backward demeaning thing called "religion." We just don't have ANY other friends. We never socialize with anyone who has any religious beliefs, any religious convictions, habits, etc.

So yes, I am sinning greatly by allowing her to do exactly what you said - heaping sin on herself. But I don't know how to change this, save keeping my own faith, sticking to my prayer rule (trying to pray even when she deliberately turns the TV on to the max, or begins vacuum-cleaning right next to the corner in our living room where the icons are Smiley), fasting, and being very good and kind and tender to her. And also keeping in touch with you guys through this Web forum. Smiley
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« Reply #33 on: April 21, 2008, 10:54:47 AM »

Lord have mercy.

George, the best you or any of us can do is just pray.  I'm not good at giving advice and therefore I won't.  Smiley  Prayers for you and your family, brother. 
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« Reply #34 on: April 21, 2008, 11:00:49 AM »

fyi - some other webcasts available here:

http://www.myocn.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=785&Itemid=254

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« Reply #35 on: April 21, 2008, 11:36:25 AM »

George, I so fear I will say something untoward-if so, please forgive me and have patience with me. Firstly, to a large degree, I can understand what a complicated situation this is. My father also "tried out" many different faith traditions against my mother's will (although she was very submissive to him and tried not to show her discomfort too openly-rather she always went along with him to all services no matter how much they were out of her comfort zone).

Now a second point. You mention the "rednecks", as simple people of Very Little Brain, objects of dirision by More Sophisticated, Highly Educated Europeans. This truthfully, really saddens me, and seems to be a form of pride. If I as an American were to live in a Euopean country and openly mock and hold myself up as superior to the local villagers or whatever, I think this would be very rude and not appreciated even by the more cosmopolitan members of society in that country. This battle of the continents seems to go on ad nauseum, sadly. Americans (at least the "redknecks") are branded as arrogant simpletons by Europeans,( who are  also prone to their own brand of arrogance/superiority). Truth to tell, the European pride bothers me more-perhaps I see less excuse for them, since they are so "well educated". It must be remembered that the cost of education is very high in America-we never had the luxury of receiving free higher education as was offered, say in the former CCCP. Many people are simply too poor to afford it, and I deeply sympathize with them, because I have suffered the same plight.

Let's not forget, please, that amongst Christ's disciples were simple, rough, crude, uneducated fishermen AS WELL as educated men. I think this was not accidental...

Please forgive my rant, and may the Lord have mercy on your situation. May He lovingly draw your dear wife to Himself and may she find the "peace which passeth all understanding" as she yields and submits herself to our loving Lord and Savior, and that He will give you strength to be a godly example to her, despite the terrible temptation she is exposing you to.

Forgive me...
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« Reply #36 on: April 21, 2008, 11:37:19 AM »

So yes, I am sinning greatly by allowing her to do exactly what you said - heaping sin on herself. But I don't know how to change this, save keeping my own faith, sticking to my prayer rule (trying to pray even when she deliberately turns the TV on to the max, or begins vacuum-cleaning right next to the corner in our living room where the icons are Smiley), fasting, and being very good and kind and tender to her. And also keeping in touch with you guys through this Web forum. Smiley

Heorhij, I'm so sorry.   Embarrassed  I will pray that the Lord softens her heart as he did mine.  I used to be just like her.
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« Reply #37 on: April 21, 2008, 11:48:41 AM »

Thanks again, all, and especially thank you for the links!

Rosehip, I know, it saddens me, too, when people mock those who have less education than themselves. Although I must say that where we live, there are some highly "educated" full university professors with capital letters following their last names who have a weird, shockingly primitive view of the world (like the belief that the US "liberates" the world from evil "terrorists" by rightfully invading any foreign territory; or that the more guns are sold, the better; or that Orthodox and Catholics are idol worshippers, or that all these colored people on welfare are just a bunch of crazy and lazy losers, etc. etc. etc.). I know this forum is not a place for political discussion, so I will stop here.

Many thanks for your prayers. I will mention all of you in my unworthy prayers, too. My hope is unshaken, God is good!
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« Reply #38 on: April 21, 2008, 12:27:16 PM »

So yes, I am sinning greatly by allowing her to do exactly what you said - heaping sin on herself. But I don't know how to change this, save keeping my own faith, sticking to my prayer rule (trying to pray even when she deliberately turns the TV on to the max, or begins vacuum-cleaning right next to the corner in our living room where the icons are Smiley), fasting, and being very good and kind and tender to her. And also keeping in touch with you guys through this Web forum. Smiley

This struck a chord with me, George, because my husband does the same thing - except it most definitely doesn't vacuum  Wink   But he will listen to music or podcasts while I'm praying, and going around the whistling (and yes, I have mentioned it to him, but I only get belligerent "It wasn't that loud." answers back).  It causes me great sadness for my husband, who is a very serious Christian.  I just feel so sorry and afraid for him when he does these things.   God has been good to me and I've been able to get up, without a clock, around 5:30-5:45 most mornings to say my prayers in the quiet.  Its those days that I oversleep or procrastinate (darn computers) that I pay the price for my laziness.
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« Reply #39 on: April 21, 2008, 12:33:26 PM »

George, I am so sorry.  Lord, have mercy!

We who are not in the kind of situations as George and Princess Mommy should be extremely thankful and yet we are so prone to take everything for granted.  Lord, have mercy on us and forgive our ungratefulness.
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« Reply #40 on: April 21, 2008, 12:51:43 PM »

George, I am so sorry.  Lord, have mercy!

We who are not in the kind of situations as George and Rosehip should be extremely thankful and yet we are so prone to take everything for granted.  Lord, have mercy on us and forgive our ungratefulness.

Thank you, but I can't say at this point I'm at all in the same situation as George. Mercifully, I do not have to endure this problem presently. I think Princess Mommy's situation is more comparable.

And George, I also do not want to continue a political conversation on this forum, but I will say I do agree with you about the educated professors with whom you work. I thought you were referrring to simple folks living a la Foxfire series... Wink
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« Reply #41 on: April 21, 2008, 01:18:20 PM »

Rosehip and Princess Mommy, my apologies to you both.  I picked up the wrong name when I was posting.  Again, I apologize to you both for this mistake. Embarrassed  (PS, I have corrected my post)   
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« Reply #42 on: April 21, 2008, 01:48:22 PM »

It causes me great sadness for my husband, who is a very serious Christian. 

Looks like we are in the same boat, PrincessMommy Smiley

But I don't know what it is, to live with a "serious Christian" under the same roof... Never happened... All people I ever lived with were/are secular humanists and either agnostics or atheists. Maybe my mother-in-law, a retired high school math teacher who lives in Ukraine, is the only exception - she at least says that she believes in God, and she crosses herself, and she even says that the Mother of God comes to her in her dreams. But she never goes to church and never prays, either.
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« Reply #43 on: April 21, 2008, 02:10:56 PM »

George,

I have two questions:

1.)  Why does your wife refuse to atend an Orthodox liturgy outside of town?

2.)  Why are you being a wimp and staying "home" just because your wife refuses to let you go?  Come on, MAN!  Smiley
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« Reply #44 on: April 21, 2008, 02:16:08 PM »

George,

I have two questions:

1.)  Why does your wife refuse to atend an Orthodox liturgy outside of town?

2.)  Why are you being a wimp and staying "home" just because your wife refuses to let you go?  Come on, MAN!  Smiley

And I have a question for you: why are you making ad hominems after we have just put a poster on moderated posts for the same reason?
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« Reply #45 on: April 21, 2008, 02:19:31 PM »

George,

I have two questions:

1.)  Why does your wife refuse to atend an Orthodox liturgy outside of town?

2.)  Why are you being a wimp and staying "home" just because your wife refuses to let you go?  Come on, MAN!  Smiley

Well, she generally dislikes going to church, any church, because she has this idea that the people in church would "lure" her into getting to know them, to stay with them for a meal etc. (and she hates this kind of socializing, she is usually bored to death from moment one), and that "they all want our money." She reluctantly agrees to go with me to services at the GOA mission parish in ~50 miles from where we live, but she would never agree to take a longer trip. And she would not let me go because she thinks it's "shameful" for me to demonstrate "this kind of fanaticism" and go alone, without my spouse.

As for being a wimp - well, I am... Sorry. I am a wimp, a sissy, a pushover, a doormat.  Angry
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« Reply #46 on: April 21, 2008, 02:31:45 PM »

Why are you being a wimp and staying "home" just because your wife refuses to let you go?  Come on, MAN!  Smiley

This is really sad that this isn't the first time in this thread that people have sought to define masculinity as being aggressive, domineering and emotionally abusive to women. 

I pray that I can have the same humility, patience and love that Heorhij has once I get married. 
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« Reply #47 on: April 21, 2008, 02:34:01 PM »

You're not a wimp at all, George.  I agree with Nektarios here... a real man doesn't just flex his muscles to get his way, even if it may be the right way.  You love your wife and it shows.  Ignore the testosterone junkies here.
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« Reply #48 on: April 21, 2008, 02:35:26 PM »


I pray that I can have the same humility, patience and love that Heorhij has once I get married. 

Thank you, Nektarios! I have to say though that it's not difficult for me. My wife is the best thing that ever happened to me in my whole life.
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« Reply #49 on: April 21, 2008, 03:11:29 PM »


George, the best you or any of us can do is just pray. 

I think Eofk had the best idea for this situation. It is really what gives the most comfort.

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« Reply #50 on: April 21, 2008, 04:39:23 PM »

Eofk wrote:  "You're not a wimp at all, George.  I agree with Nektarios here... a real man doesn't just flex his muscles to get his way, even if it may be the right way.  You love your wife and it shows.  Ignore the testosterone junkies here."

Now, hold on just a cotton pickin' moment.  Wink  I suppose you all think it is fine for his wife to refuse to let him go, but not fine for him to do what he wants, which is go to worship the risen Christ on Pascha!  What about his wife's testosterone level?  How about her "flexing her muscles"?  For some reason I am judged to be a man who is insecure and has to prove his manhood by flexing his muscles just because I suggested that ozgeorge stand up to his wife and do what he really wants to do.  You seem to think that he should cow-tow (sp?) to his wife's DEMANDS, but you don't see anything wrong with her standing up to her husband and flexing her muscles and demanding that he forsake his desire to attend church on Pascha.  Heck, why in the world should he be kept from worshipping God just because his wife doesn't see fit to do so?  It looks like the ol' reverse-chauvanism (sp?) is at work, here.  Your responses reflect a narrow-mindedness that is very worldly.

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« Reply #51 on: April 21, 2008, 04:44:35 PM »

^Roid rage?

I suggested that ozgeorge stand up to his wife
I don't have one......

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« Reply #52 on: April 21, 2008, 04:45:58 PM »

No, I didn't say anything of the sort that his wife was correct in her refusal to go.  But George (Heorhij) is displaying a level of understanding and love that you just don't see in people who force their loved ones to obey their wishes.  It seems to me that the *worst* way to sway his wife would be to twist her arm into going or to go without her, for that matter.  I can honestly say I'm no bra-burning, man-domineering feminist, I just know what it's like to have family members who are completely recalcitrant but are occasionally swayed by love and mercy.

Edited for grammar and completing a thought.  Smiley
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« Reply #53 on: April 21, 2008, 04:46:41 PM »

Eofk wrote:  "You're not a wimp at all, George.  I agree with Nektarios here... a real man doesn't just flex his muscles to get his way, even if it may be the right way.  You love your wife and it shows.  Ignore the testosterone junkies here."

Now, hold on just a cotton pickin' moment.  Wink  I suppose you all think it is fine for his wife to refuse to let him go, but not fine for him to do what he wants, which is go to worship the risen Christ on Pascha!  What about his wife's testosterone level?  How about her "flexing her muscles"?  For some reason I am judged to be a man who is insecure and has to prove his manhood by flexing his muscles just because I suggested that ozgeorge stand up to his wife and do what he really wants to do.  You seem to think that he should cow-tow (sp?) to his wife's DEMANDS, but you don't see anything wrong with her standing up to her husband and flexing her muscles and demanding that he forsake his desire to attend church on Pascha.  Heck, why in the world should he be kept from worshipping God just because his wife doesn't see fit to do so?  It looks like the ol' reverse-chauvanism (sp?) is at work, here.  Your responses reflect a narrow-mindedness that is very worldly.



I have a quick and serious question.  Are you married yourself, Gregory?
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« Reply #54 on: April 21, 2008, 05:03:41 PM »

I can honestly say I'm no bra-burning, man-domineering feminist, I just know what it's like to have family members who are completely recalcitrant but are occasionally swayed by love and mercy.

I certainly hope that I'm not bra-burning (I think my fiancee would be rather distressed if I started wearing her undergarments or burning them for that matter) nor a man-domineering feminist... it's funny how I got this wild idea from a radical selection of 2000 year old texts that humility, patience and love is the way to work through a dispute rather than force and authority. 
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« Reply #55 on: April 21, 2008, 05:08:41 PM »

*Nods enthusiastically*
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« Reply #56 on: April 21, 2008, 05:10:06 PM »

Eofk wrote:  "You're not a wimp at all, George.  I agree with Nektarios here... a real man doesn't just flex his muscles to get his way, even if it may be the right way.  You love your wife and it shows.  Ignore the testosterone junkies here."

Now, hold on just a cotton pickin' moment.  Wink  I suppose you all think it is fine for his wife to refuse to let him go, but not fine for him to do what he wants, which is go to worship the risen Christ on Pascha!  What about his wife's testosterone level?  How about her "flexing her muscles"?  For some reason I am judged to be a man who is insecure and has to prove his manhood by flexing his muscles just because I suggested that ozgeorge stand up to his wife and do what he really wants to do.  You seem to think that he should cow-tow (sp?) to his wife's DEMANDS, but you don't see anything wrong with her standing up to her husband and flexing her muscles and demanding that he forsake his desire to attend church on Pascha.  Heck, why in the world should he be kept from worshipping God just because his wife doesn't see fit to do so?  It looks like the ol' reverse-chauvanism (sp?) is at work, here.  Your responses reflect a narrow-mindedness that is very worldly.

Gregory, I am afraid you lump together two different people - George the moderator (from Australia, hence "Ozgeorge") and George a.k.a. Heorhij from Mississippi, USA, originally from Ukraine. Ozgeorge is not married - I (Heorhij) am, and it was me who initiated this thread.

As for "chauvinism in reverse" - no, I don't think it's the case, and I don't think I should "flex my muscle" in response to my wife flexing hers. That's a non-starter. EofK said it all.
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« Reply #57 on: April 21, 2008, 05:11:32 PM »

I certainly hope that I'm not bra-burning (I think my fiancee would be rather distressed if I started wearing her undergarments or burning them for that matter) nor a man-domineering feminist... it's funny how I got this wild idea from a radical selection of 2000 year old texts that humility, patience and love is the way to work through a dispute rather than force and authority. 

Two thumbs up, Nektarios!  Smiley
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« Reply #58 on: April 21, 2008, 05:44:56 PM »

No, I didn't say anything of the sort that his wife was correct in her refusal to go.  But George (Heorhij) is displaying a level of understanding and love that you just don't see in people who force their loved ones to obey their wishes.  It seems to me that the *worst* way to sway his wife would be to twist her arm into going or to go without her, for that matter.  I can honestly say I'm no bra-burning, man-domineering feminist, I just know what it's like to have family members who are completely recalcitrant but are occasionally swayed by love and mercy.

Edited for grammar and completing a thought.  Smiley

my understanding is not that she refuses to go but that she refuses to let him go.  There is a difference.  I don't like "flexing of muscles" from either side , it is a very sad thing indeed.  As someone who is in a similar situation as George, what would you be saying to me if my husband refused to let me go to Paschal services??    Is this really the way people in loving relationships should be treating each other? 

I think the next time his wife wants to go out on a girls night out or some such, he should turn the tables and see how she likes it. 
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« Reply #59 on: April 21, 2008, 05:47:54 PM »

I still think George has the right idea, though.  Patience and love. 
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« Reply #60 on: April 21, 2008, 05:51:16 PM »

my understanding is not that she refuses to go but that she refuses to let him go.  There is a difference.  I don't like "flexing of muscles" from either side , it is a very sad thing indeed.  As someone who is in a similar situation as George, what would you be saying to me if my husband refused to let me go to Paschal services??    Is this really the way people in loving relationships should be treating each other? 

I think the next time his wife wants to go out on a girls night out or some such, he should turn the tables and see how she likes it. 

But that would be "tit-for-tat..." Not terribly Christian... Smiley
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« Reply #61 on: April 21, 2008, 06:14:06 PM »

But that would be "tit-for-tat..." Not terribly Christian... Smiley

Well, I didn't mean for you to actually do it, George.  But certainly might be an appropriate time to bring up this whole Pascha experience.  From what you have told us about your wife, she is smart and loving.  I think if she see it in this light it may help her to understand how inappropriate it is for her to dictate how you celebrate a most precious holy day.
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« Reply #62 on: April 21, 2008, 06:25:14 PM »

Well, I didn't mean for you to actually do it, George.  But certainly might be an appropriate time to bring up this whole Pascha experience.  From what you have told us about your wife, she is smart and loving.  I think if she see it in this light it may help her to understand how inappropriate it is for her to dictate how you celebrate a most precious holy day.

Oh, sorry for misunderstanding you, PrincessMommy. Yes, you are probably right.
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« Reply #63 on: April 21, 2008, 08:19:19 PM »

No, I didn't say anything of the sort that his wife was correct in her refusal to go.  But George (Heorhij) is displaying a level of understanding and love that you just don't see in people who force their loved ones to obey their wishes.  It seems to me that the *worst* way to sway his wife would be to twist her arm into going or to go without her, for that matter.  I can honestly say I'm no bra-burning, man-domineering feminist, I just know what it's like to have family members who are completely recalcitrant but are occasionally swayed by love and mercy.

Edited for grammar and completing a thought.  Smiley

A couple of hundred to go shopping at the local mall and she would be on the next plane to the holy land with him, if need be. Wink
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« Reply #64 on: April 21, 2008, 08:39:04 PM »

^LOL!
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« Reply #65 on: April 21, 2008, 10:37:11 PM »

I still think that we need to be praying for God to guide Heorhij to know the best way to find peace with his wife that does not sacrifice his relationship with God.  One good solid prayer is more usful than all the advice the world has to offer. For how can we, mere mortals, actually know what Mrs. Heorhij needs at this time?
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« Reply #66 on: April 21, 2008, 10:39:24 PM »

By the way, Heorhij, do you prefer "Heorhij" or "George" as I've seen others use?
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« Reply #67 on: April 21, 2008, 10:52:54 PM »

Eofk wrote:  "It seems to me that the *worst* way to sway his wife would be to twist her arm into going or to go without her, for that matter."

I am not talking about flexing muscle on George's part. (George, I simply got your nic name mixed up earlier.)  I am talking about doing what is right, in spite of his wife's wishes.  It seems to me that somewhere The Lord said something about loving father, mother, son, daughter, etc. more than Him.  (re: Matthew 10:37ff).  The Lord also said, "no one who has left home or wife or brothers or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God will fail to receive many times as much in this age and, in the age to come, eternal life."  (re: Luke 18:29ff).  So, I ask you, my brothers and sisters, do not we Orthodox Christians believe the Master?  We are not even talking about anything as radical as George's leaving his wife and not returning!  We are simply discussing his staying home from Paschal liturgy because of his wife's wishes (pardon me for saying so, but rather earthly ones at that) or his attending Paschal Liturgy and then returning home to continue loving her!

It is not really a matter of loving his wife that we are discussing, now is it?  It is clear that he loves her.  If he goes to worship the risen Lord on this most holy of days, does that mean that he loves his wife any less?  I offer an emphatic "NO!"  The real question for him -- and for all of us -- is if he refuses (or if we do the same were we to face a similar situation) to do what he knows is right because he either is afraid of his wife (my original supposition) or if he wants to please his wife (my objectors supposition) then does he really love the Lord as He should.  Please forgive me, for I know that I don't love Him as I should.  I can look at my constant list of sins and realize that.  So, George, I am not judging you.  I am merely offering up something for you -- and all of us -- to think about.

Yes, Shultz, I am married.  And, no, I don't do everything she wants.  There are times when I do what I think I need to do, in spite of her protests.  Sometimes those things I do are selfishly motivated.  Sometimes, I hope, they are motivated by a desire to do what is needed.  I often leave her in bed and go to church, because she doesn't want to go.  I don't judge her, but neither am I going to neglect my soul because of her.  But, lest those in this forum that are proned to jump to quick conclusions (per the responses to my earlier statement), please allow me to say that I do many things to please my wife, including working two jobs to support her and my children.  I try to be considerate of her needs and desires, but I am not obligated to do everything she asks.  Neither is she obligated to do everything I ask.  Sometimes love is best expressed by saying "no".
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« Reply #68 on: April 22, 2008, 01:03:44 AM »

Eofk wrote:  "It seems to me that the *worst* way to sway his wife would be to twist her arm into going or to go without her, for that matter."

I am not talking about flexing muscle on George's part. (George, I simply got your nic name mixed up earlier.)  I am talking about doing what is right, in spite of his wife's wishes.  It seems to me that somewhere The Lord said something about loving father, mother, son, daughter, etc. more than Him.  (re: Matthew 10:37ff).  The Lord also said, "no one who has left home or wife or brothers or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God will fail to receive many times as much in this age and, in the age to come, eternal life."  (re: Luke 18:29ff).  So, I ask you, my brothers and sisters, do not we Orthodox Christians believe the Master?  We are not even talking about anything as radical as George's leaving his wife and not returning!  We are simply discussing his staying home from Paschal liturgy because of his wife's wishes (pardon me for saying so, but rather earthly ones at that) or his attending Paschal Liturgy and then returning home to continue loving her!

It is not really a matter of loving his wife that we are discussing, now is it?  It is clear that he loves her.  If he goes to worship the risen Lord on this most holy of days, does that mean that he loves his wife any less?  I offer an emphatic "NO!"  The real question for him -- and for all of us -- is if he refuses (or if we do the same were we to face a similar situation) to do what he knows is right because he either is afraid of his wife (my original supposition) or if he wants to please his wife (my objectors supposition) then does he really love the Lord as He should.  Please forgive me, for I know that I don't love Him as I should.  I can look at my constant list of sins and realize that.  So, George, I am not judging you.  I am merely offering up something for you -- and all of us -- to think about.

Yes, Shultz, I am married.  And, no, I don't do everything she wants.  There are times when I do what I think I need to do, in spite of her protests.  Sometimes those things I do are selfishly motivated.  Sometimes, I hope, they are motivated by a desire to do what is needed.  I often leave her in bed and go to church, because she doesn't want to go.  I don't judge her, but neither am I going to neglect my soul because of her.  But, lest those in this forum that are proned to jump to quick conclusions (per the responses to my earlier statement), please allow me to say that I do many things to please my wife, including working two jobs to support her and my children.  I try to be considerate of her needs and desires, but I am not obligated to do everything she asks.  Neither is she obligated to do everything I ask.  Sometimes love is best expressed by saying "no".

While there are several unkind, humiliating, and diminutive things I would absolutely love to say to you, as this is a public forum I shall refrain and simply reply with the words of St. John:

'If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?'

It would seem to me that you do not fully grasp the concept of love of neighbour.
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« Reply #69 on: April 22, 2008, 01:22:43 AM »

Before this turns uglier, let's all just take a breather.  We're rapidly approaching Pascha and should be uplifting each other instead of what's beginning to happen.  I'm not judging anyone, nor am I judging what's been said (though I would like to point out again that our dear brother Heorhij simply asked for our prayers for his particular dilema.)  Just think three times about what you what you want to say before you say it and recall that everything we say is being recorded- on this forum and by the angels.
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« Reply #70 on: April 22, 2008, 01:26:40 AM »

I think if Heorhij's wife's refusal to let her husband attend services was resulting in Heorhij drifting away from God, then we can rouse up the troops and come to the rescue. Heorhij has demonstrated to the T through his posts on this forum that he is mature, capable and knows when and how to ask for help. Perhaps we all should have faith in him that he knows how to solve much of this on his own, with the help of God. He is only asking us to pray for him, to go to the Father we share with Heorhij to encourage him to remain steadfast. Do you really think it's helpful or even smart to call a struggling Christian a wimp because he believes going back to the 50's concept of manly might is not going to work? I believe that if Heorhij were truly a wimp, he'd have kept his mouth shut and we would have learned nothing of his situation.
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« Reply #71 on: April 22, 2008, 01:42:10 AM »

I think if Heorhij's wife's refusal to let her husband attend services was resulting in Heorhij drifting away from God, then we can rouse up the troops and come to the rescue. Heorhij has demonstrated to the T through his posts on this forum that he is mature, capable and knows when and how to ask for help. Perhaps we all should have faith in him that he knows how to solve much of this on his own, with the help of God. He is only asking us to pray for him, to go to the Father we share with Heorhij to encourage him to remain steadfast. Do you really think it's helpful or even smart to call a struggling Christian a wimp because he believes going back to the 50's concept of manly might is not going to work? I believe that if Heorhij were truly a wimp, he'd have kept his mouth shut and we would have learned nothing of his situation.
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Good point.  Regardless of what we may think personally of George's decision, it is his decision and his decision ALONE to make.  He and he alone will have to answer for this decision, for good or for ill.  This is not a decision we can make for him, nor do we do well to be armchair spiritual fathers and mothers offering words of guidance via a medium as impersonal as an internet discussion forum, especially considering that this is not what George requested of us.  He's made up his mind what he's going to do, and whether or not we agree with his decision, the best and maybe the only thing we can do is pray that God blesses his course of action.

"Don't judge a man until you've walked a mile in his shoes."
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« Reply #72 on: April 22, 2008, 01:57:43 AM »



"Don't judge a man until you've walked a mile in his shoes."
That way you'll be a mile ahead of him AND you'll have his shoes!  Cheesy  Sorry, I couldn't resist...
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« Reply #73 on: April 22, 2008, 02:02:20 AM »

That way you'll be a mile ahead of him AND you'll have his shoes!  Cheesy  Sorry, I couldn't resist...
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« Reply #74 on: April 22, 2008, 02:33:08 AM »

Punch, I know... I wish I could change her and I am really trying very hard to do all I can.
So yes, I am sinning greatly by allowing her to do exactly what you said - heaping sin on herself. But I don't know how to change this, save keeping my own faith, sticking to my prayer rule (trying to pray even when she deliberately turns the TV on to the max, or begins vacuum-cleaning right next to the corner in our living room where the icons are Smiley), fasting, and being very good and kind and tender to her. And also keeping in touch with you guys through this Web forum. Smiley

Heorhij,

Thank you for your response.  I am happy that you took my words in the manner that they were intended.  Let me make clear that in my mind you are no coward.  This is strictly a spiritual matter and not some macho contest or battle between the sexes.  Also, I would not venture to comment on this situation if I did not come to care for you through your posts.  I believe that love for another requires more than prayer, it requires action.  I have little time or use for those who would see a starving man and "pray for him" rather than feed him.  Those are the cowards, not those like you who bear a cross.  BTW - I am married with three children and have been for 27 years to the same (and only) woman.

Heorhij, you know that you cannot change your wife - only the Holy Spirit can do that.  Your own words show that she had rejected God (at least for now - we cannot see the future).  You fear that going to Liturgy will somehow turn her away.  She is already there.  Perhaps a show of resolve on your part may actually have the opposite affect of what you fear.  Pray to God to show you this. I have a similar situation in my own home.  My wife does not like to go to Church with me.  She is willing to have reader's services at home, so this is an improvement over your situation.  If, after prayer, you believe that your attending the Liturgy is, indeed, more damaging to her soul, then consider praying the Reader's service at home yourself.  If you need the materials, PM me and I will see that you get them.

Remember the story of Adam and Eve.  Many people on this list have tried to turn this into some macho / wimp issue, or their liberalism has given them "ears that cannot hear" and "eyes that cannot see".  Adam had a choice to make.  By putting his love for Eve over his love for God, the whole creation fell.  The Scriptures and the Fathers continuously speak of "Adam's fall".  Was it not Eve who sinned first?  Yes, but it was Adam, as the spiritual head of the family, who is held accountable for the deed. 

Perhaps going out of town and leaving your wife at home is too much of an "in your face" act at this point.  I can see that, and your response to my original post with its explanation of your thoughts and motives gives me comfort in siding with your decision at this time.  However, I would celebrate the Pascha at home.  If your wife protests, I would have no reservations in telling her that it was for love of her that you stayed home.  She should show her love for you, if there is any, by not forbidding you to worship your God on this the most Holy of days.  Perhaps, by the Grace of God, and through the intercessions of the Theotokos and the Holy Fathers, her heart will be softened and you will find peace.  If not, you must do what is right in your heart.  You have the scriptures and you have the Fathers to guide you.

May God Bless you and keep you brother Heorhij.  I pray that my words have been of some help to you.  They were never meant to deride you or to make sport of you.  To maintain the Faith in the face of attacks so close to you requires a strength far beyond my own.
 
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« Reply #75 on: April 22, 2008, 02:58:25 AM »

Господе Помилуј.........SmileyCentral.com" border="0SmileyCentral.com" border="0
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« Reply #76 on: April 22, 2008, 07:30:05 AM »

By the way, Heorhij, do you prefer "Heorhij" or "George" as I've seen others use?

Either way is fine. George is simplier for English-speaking folks to pronounce, and besides my dad, who was somewhat an Anglophile, used to call me George even when I was little. Heorhij is my official full first name, as written in my birth certificate, but it's the same Greek name as George (Yorios).
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« Reply #77 on: April 22, 2008, 07:31:21 AM »

Perhaps going out of town and leaving your wife at home is too much of an "in your face" act at this point.  I can see that, and your response to my original post with its explanation of your thoughts and motives gives me comfort in siding with your decision at this time.  However, I would celebrate the Pascha at home.  If your wife protests, I would have no reservations in telling her that it was for love of her that you stayed home.  She should show her love for you, if there is any, by not forbidding you to worship your God on this the most Holy of days.  Perhaps, by the Grace of God, and through the intercessions of the Theotokos and the Holy Fathers, her heart will be softened and you will find peace.  If not, you must do what is right in your heart.  You have the scriptures and you have the Fathers to guide you.

Thank you so much! That's what I will do, precisely!
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« Reply #78 on: April 22, 2008, 07:35:09 AM »

Heorhij,
My suggestion is also to just keep praying, any way you can.

I have come to realize over time, every one of us humans has a major problem to grapple with in life. A trial, a dilemma a tribulation as some put it, or some major hangup that we routinely face in life. I prefer to say we all have our own Monster to deal with. What it is for each of us is different, but the unifying element is that we all have one to face. For me, it is depression. I won't likely ever conquer it, but  I will NOT let it conquer me. For others, it might be chronic health issues, or resisting a major temptation, or any number of other possibilities. I am not trying to indicate anything about your wife at all, but rather think that right now, your problem to contend with is the internal struggle of maintaining your faith under difficult circumstances.
While my philosophy of life doesn't offer much advice, I do find comfort in knowing that God will never give never allow us to have a problem that is more than we can handle.

Oh Lord God, have mercy on us, who are sinners. Help us to know what we should do about the problem most on our mind that will bring us closer to you. Lord have mercy. Amen.

*changed a slight wording* twice.
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« Reply #79 on: April 22, 2008, 08:17:48 AM »

greekischristi wrote:  "While there are several unkind, humiliating, and diminutive things I would absolutely love to say to you, as this is a public forum I shall refrain and simply reply with the words of St. John:

'If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?'

It would seem to me that you do not fully grasp the concept of love of neighbour."


I understand that we live in a culture where it is not popular to be so direct.  Forgive me for not couching my comments in more flowery speech.  It is not, however, unloving to speak the truth.  I thought I had made it clear that I was not judging George at all, having admited that my love for The Lord is gravely lacking.  But, for me to not point out the words of the Lord would be a very unloving thing to do.  Someone mentioned that George knows his situation much better than we and they are correct.  If George is comfortable with his decision to not attend Pascha, then far be it from me to correct him.  However, it was necessary that someone remind him of the words of the Lord.  Obviously, all he was going to get from everyone else on here was the "I'm OK, You're OK" modernist approach.  Perhaps both sides of the picture is what George needs, so that he is better able to make an informed and thoughtful decision.

As for greekischristi's comment about my having failed to grasp the concept of brotherly love:  Maybe I have.  I am a terrible sinner, to be sure.  But, it amazes me that you are able to draw that conclusion based on a few comments in a forum.  But, what amazes me even more is that you have been appointed my judge!  I failed to get the memo about that one.

As for calling him a "wimp", that was a friendly, man-to-man jab.  I even accompanied it with a cute little smiley face.  I can understand the women in here not getting that.  It is very common, however, with men to tease one another while making a point.  My point was that it would be alright for him to tell his wife that he was going to Paschal liturgy in spite of her "demands".  It was a way of encouraging him to be strong.  (No, I am not talking about flexing muscles, so everyone calm down. Smiley ).
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« Reply #80 on: April 22, 2008, 08:20:42 AM »

Having said all of that, brothers and sisters please forgive me for any offences.  May God bless you all.

Gregory
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« Reply #81 on: April 22, 2008, 08:27:47 AM »

  Obviously, all he was going to get from everyone else on here was the "I'm OK, You're OK" modernist approach. 

I really rather think that I haven't said anything one way or the other as far as going or not going, or anything else about his decisions.  The only thing I've advocated the whole time, is to pray for guidance, with the implied belief that such a prayer will be answered.
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« Reply #82 on: April 22, 2008, 08:28:55 AM »

by the way, I'm not really irritated, just feeling a bit unnoticed and discounted.  Smiley
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« Reply #83 on: April 22, 2008, 09:21:46 AM »

by the way, I'm not really irritated, just feeling a bit unnoticed and discounted.  Smiley

Welcome (again!) to OC.net!  Wink
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« Reply #84 on: April 22, 2008, 09:53:43 AM »

I understand that we live in a culture where it is not popular to be so direct.  Forgive me for not couching my comments in more flowery speech.  It is not, however, unloving to speak the truth.  I thought I had made it clear that I was not judging George at all, having admited that my love for The Lord is gravely lacking.  But, for me to not point out the words of the Lord would be a very unloving thing to do.  Someone mentioned that George knows his situation much better than we and they are correct.

As opposed to my overly flowery and restrained rhetoric? LOL...I was criticizing content, not style, trust me on that one. Wink

Quote
If George is comfortable with his decision to not attend Pascha, then far be it from me to correct him.  However, it was necessary that someone remind him of the words of the Lord.  Obviously, all he was going to get from everyone else on here was the "I'm OK, You're OK" modernist approach.  Perhaps both sides of the picture is what George needs, so that he is better able to make an informed and thoughtful decision.

Actually, I don't see it necessary to present that side, we've worked too long and too hard in undermining it.

Quote
As for greekischristi's comment about my having failed to grasp the concept of brotherly love:  Maybe I have.  I am a terrible sinner, to be sure.  But, it amazes me that you are able to draw that conclusion based on a few comments in a forum.  But, what amazes me even more is that you have been appointed my judge!  I failed to get the memo about that one.

Hmmm...must have gotten lost in the mail. I'll make sure and post you directly when I get the role of executioner approved. Grin

Quote
As for calling him a "wimp", that was a friendly, man-to-man jab.  I even accompanied it with a cute little smiley face.  I can understand the women in here not getting that.  It is very common, however, with men to tease one another while making a point.  My point was that it would be alright for him to tell his wife that he was going to Paschal liturgy in spite of her "demands".  It was a way of encouraging him to be strong.  (No, I am not talking about flexing muscles, so everyone calm down. Smiley ).

Yes, hurmour is an integral part of human discourse, but humour involving such things as racist or sexist jokes tend not to be appropriate for public discussion. Your comments, even made in humour, carry cultural connotations that civilization has long been working to overcome and, as such, are considered archaic and offensive. I may be able to tell a racist joke, it could be funny and make people laugh, it may even help me get my point across, but it would still be offensive and inappropriate...your comments are no different and, hence, the reaction you received.

I think the most disturbing part is your failure to recognize why so many of us took offence to your comments, it's disturbing enough to find people who understand the cultural issues and insist on persisting in their misogynistic weltanschauung in spite of the cultural and social expectations of the civilized world...it's truly frightening to encounter people ignorant of these social norms and cultural expectations.

Perhaps you'd be more comfortable if we settled this debate with a duel (or street brawl), as opposed to intellectual discourse?
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« Reply #85 on: April 22, 2008, 10:14:34 AM »

by the way, I'm not really irritated, just feeling a bit unnoticed and discounted.  Smiley

It doesn't take much to get noticed around here. Cheesy

I suggested to George that showing his love to his wife would allow her to reciprocate. Coach or Prada would work just fine. Wink
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« Reply #86 on: April 22, 2008, 10:19:48 AM »

Welcome (again!) to OC.net!  Wink

Thanks, (again, unless I forgot to type it the first time. In which case, forgive me.) I think you might have miss-understood me a bit. I was only refering to this one discussion, and then only to being lumped in with the "everyone"  part. As far as the forum goes, I've been having a great time socializing. Grin
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« Reply #87 on: April 22, 2008, 10:37:30 AM »

I really rather think that I haven't said anything one way or the other as far as going or not going, or anything else about his decisions.  The only thing I've advocated the whole time, is to pray for guidance, with the implied belief that such a prayer will be answered.

I am sorry, I really should have replied earlier! Yes, dear RLNM, I have read your comments and I absolutely agree about the necessity to pray, and about this "one major" thing that we need to struggle with. Yes, indeed, maybe for me this one "thing" is that God put me in the circumstances where I feel very alone in my faith, where all people who surround me and communicate with me in real life are non-believers.

It is a hard struggle. The way it goes... well, sometimes I feel almost like some kind of "electricity" between my wife and me, or between my mother and me (when we talk on the phone), or between some of my closest, dearest friends and me. For example, a couple of weeks ago I was talking to a colleague at work in the presence of my wife, and mentioned that English-speaking people have difficulties pronouncing the sound conveyed by the Greek "xi," like in "Khristos" ("Xristos"), so they say Christos or Kristos. That was just an example, I did not mean to talk about religion, faith, but it was enough for my dear wife to become mad and to say, a bit later, "AGAIN, AGAIN you and your stupid prozelytizing, your Christ-Christ-Christ-Christ-Christ... can't you just stop shaming me in front of other people with your fanaticism???"

Well, so, here I am. That's my reality. I cannot change it, I cannot escape. So, I'll just keep praying...

Thank you again for your kind support!
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« Reply #88 on: April 22, 2008, 10:48:16 AM »

greekischristian wrote:  "As opposed to my overly flowery and restrained rhetoric? LOL...I was criticizing content, not style, trust me on that one."

You were criticizing content, huh?  Well, then I am beginning to see even more clearly that your viewpoint is heavily skewed by the current worldly thought, rather than the Christian faith.  That explains much to me.  After all, I was refering to the words of The Lord, Himself when you took issue with what I had said.

greekischristian wrote:  "Yes, hurmour is an integral part of human discourse, but humour involving such things as racist or sexist jokes tend not to be appropriate for public discussion. Your comments, even made in humour, carry cultural connotations that civilization has long been working to overcome and, as such, are considered archaic and offensive."

Obviously you have missed my point, entirely.  But, worse than that, your allowing the culture to dictate your beliefs is truely disturbing.  There are some of us who still believe that that man is the head of the wife, as the Scripture tells us.  (After all, we are ORTHODOX!)  This does not mean, lest you jump to yet another conclusion, that I beleive that men should be domineering toward women and lord it over them.  (I am quite certain, based on your previous comments, that you automatically assume that is what I mean.)  We are to love our wives as Christ loved the Church.  It does mean, however, that men are to be leaders in the family, particularly when it comes to spiritual matters.  Since we have been talking about a spiritual matter -- whether or not George should go to the Paschal liturgy or stay home with his wife who demands that he stay home -- I was suggesting that he be the man, i.e., the head of the home.  If you, because of your skewed and worldly vision of the husband/wife relationship misunderstood, then I fail to see where that is my fault.

I will not continue to argue with you about this.  If you want to have a worldly view, then that is your choice.  It would behoove you, however, to understand the Christian view, not the I'll-try-to-fit-the-worldy/feminist-view-into-my-Christian-faith view.  But, that is your choice.  I am not going to discuss it any further.

George, I humbly ask you to forgive me if I have offended you.  

Gregory
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« Reply #89 on: April 22, 2008, 10:52:17 AM »

I understand that we live in a culture where it is not popular to be so direct.  Forgive me for not couching my comments in more flowery speech.  It is not, however, unloving to speak the truth.  I thought I had made it clear that I was not judging George at all, having admited that my love for The Lord is gravely lacking.  But, for me to not point out the words of the Lord would be a very unloving thing to do.  Someone mentioned that George knows his situation much better than we and they are correct.  If George is comfortable with his decision to not attend Pascha, then far be it from me to correct him.  However, it was necessary that someone remind him of the words of the Lord.  Obviously, all he was going to get from everyone else on here was the "I'm OK, You're OK" modernist approach.  Perhaps both sides of the picture is what George needs, so that he is better able to make an informed and thoughtful decision.

I think you are partially right. I do need a reminder, every now and then, that "man's enemies are his relatives," etc. I know that Christ brought not peace but division ("sword"). I experience this "sword" every single day. But the thing is, how to react to this division, what to do about it. Perhaps the best strategy is not to do anything rash, dramatic, "in-your-face." Staying at home and celebrating Pascha with my wife would probably be a good idea. After all, she is a Ukrainian woman, and she loves old Ukrainian customs; we will paint eggs together, and fry stuffed sausage, and drink Luksusova (ahh, it's Polish, but we could not find any Ukrainian "horilka" anywhere, and we don't want "Stoli" for the life of us!!!). And I will listen to the audio links that the people from this group have so kindly provided, and she will listen, too, and I will cross her and bless her (btw, I do it every morning before going to work, and she does not mind!). And, as always, I'll just keep hoping in my heart, "maybe next year..." Smiley
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« Reply #90 on: April 22, 2008, 10:54:08 AM »

mean are to be leaders in the family
I think your freudian slip is showing. Wink
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« Reply #91 on: April 22, 2008, 10:54:23 AM »

George, I humbly ask you to forgive me if I have offended you.  

No, Gregory, not at all, of course not. You did not offend me.
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« Reply #92 on: April 22, 2008, 11:07:14 AM »

Heorhij ,

I was just rereading several of your posts and I note that one of the things that you  frequently mention are the well educated people whom you and your wife associate with who are agnostic and athiests.  Perhaps you could make acquaintances thru this website who are intelligent, well educated people who are Orthodox Christians.  There are many well educated Orthodox Christians in the United States who may be able to assist you in this.  One is Dr. Tristan Engelhardt, Jr., a professor at Rice University, a noted medical and social ethicist who is an Orthodox Christian. I know he is a noted lecturer around the country and perhaps you could even entice him to speak at your University. You may be surprised to even find some well educated Orthodox Christians relatively close to where you live whom may be willing to start an internet friendship, followed by visits, and something may blossom from that for your wife.  Often it is whom we surround ourselves with that have a great influence on us. As always my prayers are with you. May you have a blessed Pascha.

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« Reply #93 on: April 22, 2008, 11:22:19 AM »

^Thank you, Thomas. That's great, I will definitely contact Dr. Engelhardt. At Mississippi State University where my wife works, there are some Orthodox Christians among the faculty and/or staff, too; I know it because they have an Orthodox Student Association, led, most likely, by a faculty member who is Orthodox. We never got to know them, though, again, because of my dear wife's strong "chip on the shoulder" against "religious people."

This problem might actually disappear in just a few years, when we both retire. Our daughter is getting married on May 24 this year, and she and her husband will live in Boston. Very likely, we - my wife and I - will move to Boston, too, and there we will most definitely befriend some Ukrainian Orthodox people.
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« Reply #94 on: April 22, 2008, 11:30:56 AM »

My dear wife categorically refuses to go to an Orthodox church out of town for this year's Holy Week services or for Pascha, and categorically refuses to let me go.

Maybe next year... Please pray for us...

Heorhij: Considering your situation, you can get some exposure to the services of Holy Week by watching one of the various Webcasts that are out there on the Web.

The Orthodox Christian Network (www.MyOCN.net) is streaming at least one service every evening of Holy Week. Archives are available here: http://www.myocn.net/index.php/Holy-Week-2008.html

My wife and I have set up a left stand that is all English. Unfortunately, that means you'll have to forgive my butchering of the aposticha in last night's service.

Blessed Holy Week to all!
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« Reply #95 on: April 22, 2008, 11:47:47 AM »

^Thanks a million! Smiley
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« Reply #96 on: April 22, 2008, 12:25:22 PM »

ozgeorge,

Seeing a demon around every corner, are you?  That is not a Freudian slip.  We call that a typographical error, or "typo" for short.  Perhaps you have heard that term before?
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« Reply #97 on: April 22, 2008, 12:26:07 PM »

Quote
As for greekischristi's comment about my having failed to grasp the concept of brotherly love:  Maybe I have.  I am a terrible sinner, to be sure.  But, it amazes me that you are able to draw that conclusion based on a few comments in a forum.  But, what amazes me even more is that you have been appointed my judge!  I failed to get the memo about that one.

We only get a taste of what people might be like based on their comments on this forum, for we have often have no other outlet TO know them. As such, you should be careful what you write, whether it was made in jest/loyalty to Christianity or not. Even if your words didn't offend Heorhij, if they came out offensive to anyone, maybe you should take that as a sign and turn down the heater. Traditionally and even in the modern day all around the world, the man has said to women, "Jump" and we ask, "How high?" That's usually the image that people have in their heads when someone else says that so-and-so should assume his role as the head of the family. Obviously, the situation seems very unstable for Heorhij and stomping the man staff is not a good option for him right now, especially since he gave us a taste of a reaction his wife has had about religious people.
Oh, and you should realize that GreekisChristian has a long stick that he likes to poke people with on this forum concerning spiritual and cultural matters, so put your bomb helmet on, lol! Wink He's cool, though. Grin
He is very educated and rational, so don't think I'm trying to make him come off as some "little yapping dog"....ahem..back to the point...
Heorhij, when I was reading your text about how your wife is concerning religious....that's sometimes like how I feel about Roman Catholics...scary! Tongue
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« Reply #98 on: April 22, 2008, 01:21:10 PM »

You were criticizing content, huh?  Well, then I am beginning to see even more clearly that your viewpoint is heavily skewed by the current worldly thought, rather than the Christian faith.  That explains much to me.  After all, I was refering to the words of The Lord, Himself when you took issue with what I had said.

When Christianity becomes used to maintain a system of inequality the principles being used should be reevaluated. Fortunately, your type are a minority amongst Christians in the civilized world.

Quote
Obviously you have missed my point, entirely.  But, worse than that, your allowing the culture to dictate your beliefs is truely disturbing.

Culture isn't dictating anything to me, I'm on the extreme left of the culture trying to force it further along. I am simply suggesting that you allow the cultural changes that those who think like me have accomplished over the past couple centuries inform your views. If you don't want to enter the 21st century, at least enter the 20th.

Quote
There are some of us who still believe that that man is the head of the wife, as the Scripture tells us.  (After all, we are ORTHODOX!)  This does not mean, lest you jump to yet another conclusion, that I beleive that men should be domineering toward women and lord it over them.  (I am quite certain, based on your previous comments, that you automatically assume that is what I mean.)  We are to love our wives as Christ loved the Church.  It does mean, however, that men are to be leaders in the family, particularly when it comes to spiritual matters.  Since we have been talking about a spiritual matter -- whether or not George should go to the Paschal liturgy or stay home with his wife who demands that he stay home -- I was suggesting that he be the man, i.e., the head of the home.  If you, because of your skewed and worldly vision of the husband/wife relationship misunderstood, then I fail to see where that is my fault.

It's your fault because civilization has left you behind and you have failed to put forth any effort to catch up. It is, of course, a principle of our society that you are free to believe what you want, but I am equally free to dispute and dismiss such anachronistic and dangerous views as you espouse. Don't think that I will allow you to threaten the most significant cultural and social advancements of western civilization without comment.

Quote
I will not continue to argue with you about this.  If you want to have a worldly view, then that is your choice.  It would behoove you, however, to understand the Christian view, not the I'll-try-to-fit-the-worldy/feminist-view-into-my-Christian-faith view.  But, that is your choice.  I am not going to discuss it any further.

Oh, I understand your position, there was a time when I held it. But that doesn't change the fact that you're just plain wrong.
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« Reply #99 on: April 22, 2008, 01:51:17 PM »

It's kind of funny that "feminism" crept into this discussion. My wife does not identify herself as a feminist. Moreover, sometimes she says, half-jokingly, that she is a male chauvinist.Smiley She has some very traditional, conservative values: for example, she loves to cook and says that she would not feel good about engaging in any activity if a dinner in her home is not prepared and served. She never debates "issues," never insists that she is "entitled" to some particular "rights," etc. And I know that I and our daughter are enormously important for her. Our well-being is her first priority. But, like I said, so far she had only negative experience in dealing with religious people and she really, seriously dislikes them, virtually all of them (well, with one exception - the former pastor at the Presbyterian church where I was baptized; a woman, who quit that church and denomination and is, at the moment, a Roman Catholic nun living in New Zealand).
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« Reply #100 on: April 22, 2008, 04:33:10 PM »

greekischristian wrote:  "It's your fault because civilization has left you behind and you have failed to put forth any effort to catch up. "

Someone once said that the way to destruction was broad.  (Let's see, now:  Who was that? Wink )  I don't mind the world leaving me behind.  In fact, thanks for the affirmation!  I would rather follow the ways of Christ.

greekischristian wrote: "When Christianity becomes used to maintain a system of inequality the principles being used should be reevaluated. Fortunately, your type are a minority amongst Christians in the civilized world."

Christianity -- at least Orthodox Christian Faith -- is not maintaining a system of inequality. We recognize that there are different roles for men and women, but not different value.  This is a truth that escapes the liberal-minded (i.e., worldly minded) feminists.  They cannot understand how this dichotomy can exist.  Their thinking is narrow and closed.  Man is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the Church.  This is a spiritual truth and has nothing whatsoever to do with culture, as one can easily deduce by the text. The body cannot be the head; it is the body.  The Church cannot be the head;  it is the body and the Lord is not going to be replaced.  Neither can the wife be the head, although many, many try in today's modern world. 

If you think I am a couple of centuries behind because I hold to this teaching of the Christian faith:  GOOD!  If you want to ignore the faith in favor of modern thinking, then go ahead.  If you want to fool yourself into thinking that you are enlightened and that I am "fortunately" in a minority:  GOOD, too!  As for me, I prefer to lean not unto my own understanding.  As a former protestant minister, I had my fill of trying to be the final authority! 

Ok, I said that I wasn't going to discuss this further with you, but your arrogant indignance at the Christian teaching (funny -- are you not an Orthodox Christian? hmmm) just tempted me too much. 

Ok, you can rant and rave all you want.  I'm done.

Gregory



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« Reply #101 on: April 22, 2008, 04:39:17 PM »

Myrhh23 wrote: "We only get a taste of what people might be like based on their comments on this forum, for we have often have no other outlet TO know them. As such, you should be careful what you write, whether it was made in jest/loyalty to Christianity or not. Even if your words didn't offend Heorhij, if they came out offensive to anyone, maybe you should take that as a sign and turn down the heater."

Maybe I just visit forums where people have a bit thicker skin and don't wear their feelings on their sleeves.  Could someone put up a sign that says "ADULTS ONLY"?  Then I wouldn't have to walk on egg shells.
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« Reply #102 on: April 22, 2008, 04:55:29 PM »

Maybe I just visit forums where people have a bit thicker skin and don't wear their feelings on their sleeves.  Could someone put up a sign that says "ADULTS ONLY"?  Then I wouldn't have to walk on egg shells.

I was always raised to adopt the decorum of whatever the prevailing situation/culture I happen to find myself in whenever I find that it's more formal/more is expected of me.

If someone takes offense to what I have said or more importantly how I have said something, it is my duty to do my best to not make the mistake again no matter how ridiculous I may find the offense to be.

Not a judgment, just food for thought Smiley
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« Reply #103 on: April 22, 2008, 05:46:00 PM »

I have actually taken offense to much that has been said in this forum, but instead of whining that my feelings have been hurt, I have sought to point out the falacies in what was said.  That is typical adult discussion.  Schultz, perhaps you are right.  I should adapt to the custom of the place where I am.  That is why I won't stay around in this room.  Like I said, I would prefer to find an adult room.

Oh, I'm so sorry if this offends anyone.  Please, allow me to rephrase that:  I will look for a room where adults can carry on a conversation without a constant worrying that people will read into others' comments their own social biases and then lash out at the one who made the comment by telling him how mean and unloving he is.  Don't know if that is much better, but maybe it won't be too upsetting.
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« Reply #104 on: April 22, 2008, 06:05:15 PM »

Someone once said that the way to destruction was broad.  (Let's see, now:  Who was that? Wink )  I don't mind the world leaving me behind.  In fact, thanks for the affirmation!  I would rather follow the ways of Christ.

You and the members of the FLDS are welcome.

Quote
Christianity -- at least Orthodox Christian Faith -- is not maintaining a system of inequality. We recognize that there are different roles for men and women, but not different value.  This is a truth that escapes the liberal-minded (i.e., worldly minded) feminists.  They cannot understand how this dichotomy can exist.  Their thinking is narrow and closed.  Man is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the Church.  This is a spiritual truth and has nothing whatsoever to do with culture, as one can easily deduce by the text. The body cannot be the head; it is the body.  The Church cannot be the head;  it is the body and the Lord is not going to be replaced.  Neither can the wife be the head, although many, many try in today's modern world. 

Separate is inherently unequal. Nice rhetoric you have there but a) I've already heard the party line, try something different for a change, and b) it's a bunch of nonsense your, distopian theory has no bearing on reality.

Quote
If you think I am a couple of centuries behind because I hold to this teaching of the Christian faith:  GOOD!

So when do we get to start burning witches? You're starting to make me feel cold and giving me the shivers, a sure sign of witchcraft if I've ever seen one. Who do I get to accuse you of being a warlock to?

Quote
If you want to ignore the faith in favor of modern thinking, then go ahead.  If you want to fool yourself into thinking that you are enlightened and that I am "fortunately" in a minority:  GOOD, too!  As for me, I prefer to lean not unto my own understanding.  As a former protestant minister, I had my fill of trying to be the final authority! 

Ahhh...now I'm starting to get the picture.

Quote
Ok, I said that I wasn't going to discuss this further with you, but your arrogant indignance at the Christian teaching (funny -- are you not an Orthodox Christian? hmmm) just tempted me too much. 

You did read my religion in my profile, didn't you?
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« Reply #105 on: April 22, 2008, 06:07:58 PM »

Maybe I just visit forums where people have a bit thicker skin and don't wear their feelings on their sleeves.  Could someone put up a sign that says "ADULTS ONLY"?  Then I wouldn't have to walk on egg shells.

You can say what you want to me, I don't particularly care. But I thought that someone should point out to you that your positions were not socially acceptable. Heck, if you want to debate the benefits of communism and national socialism, I'm all for it, but I might point out that some of the ideals espoused by those ideologies are unacceptable for modern society...especially if you come across as not understanding the unacceptability of some of your positions.
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« Reply #106 on: April 22, 2008, 06:15:54 PM »

^Thank you, Thomas. That's great, I will definitely contact Dr. Engelhardt. At Mississippi State University where my wife works, there are some Orthodox Christians among the faculty and/or staff, too; I know it because they have an Orthodox Student Association, led, most likely, by a faculty member who is Orthodox. We never got to know them, though, again, because of my dear wife's strong "chip on the shoulder" against "religious people."

This problem might actually disappear in just a few years, when we both retire. Our daughter is getting married on May 24 this year, and she and her husband will live in Boston. Very likely, we - my wife and I - will move to Boston, too, and there we will most definitely befriend some Ukrainian Orthodox people. 

There are most certainly many well-educated Orthodox Christians in the Boston area; besides the seminary professors (who would totally get thrown out with "religious people," no?) there are many professors who are Orthodox Christians at the area universities.  You'll love being in the US' biggest University Town.
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« Reply #107 on: April 22, 2008, 06:46:11 PM »

greekis... wrote: Separate is inherently unequal. Nice rhetoric you have there but a) I've already heard the party line, try something different for a change, and b) it's a bunch of nonsense your, distopian theory has no bearing on reality.

Obviously you have already heard the "party line".  Your point is, uh, what?  That because you have heard it and rejected it then it cannot possibly be true?  LOL  What arrogance.

I am repeating the "party line" because it is true.  What else should I espouse, the paganism disguised as progress that calls the teachings of the Christian faith outdated, behind the times and socially unacceptable?  I am a Christian, after all.

As for the party line, I have heard yours many, many times. Heck, one can barely turn on the television or radio without hearing it.  Yes, indeed, it is very, very popular.  The broad road always is.

Your arguments are very, very weak, by the way.  Statements like, "you are just plain wrong" and "I've heard the party line before" and "It's your fault because civilization has left you behind and you have failed to put forth any effort to catch up" are just not arguments that are going to prove your point very well.  Someone said you are educated.  I'm surprised that this is the best you can do, being educated and all. 

I am really going to try to resist commenting on your statements, from now on.  I have doon a poor job, so far.  But, really, it is clear that your statements reflect a deep bias, an attempt to "Christianize" at least portions of modern, secular thought, and a disdain for those who hold to traditional Chrisitan teaching, at least when it comes to certain issues that just feel right to you.
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« Reply #108 on: April 22, 2008, 06:46:56 PM »


  As a former protestant minister, I had my fill of trying to be the final authority! 



Welcome to Orthodoxy and this forum Gregory. A little advice, if I may. Make sure you ware your bullet proof vest after hitting the post button. As I always do. Cheesy
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« Reply #109 on: April 22, 2008, 06:53:08 PM »

Welcome to Orthodoxy and this forum Gregory. A little advice, if I may. Make sure you ware your bullet proof vest after hitting the post button. As I always do. Cheesy

That's why we aim for your head. Tongue
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« Reply #110 on: April 22, 2008, 07:01:20 PM »

That's why we aim for your head. Tongue

I also ware a cup for those occasions.
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« Reply #111 on: April 22, 2008, 07:04:48 PM »

I also ware a cup for those occasions.

LMAO...now that was good. Cheesy Wink
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« Reply #112 on: April 22, 2008, 07:05:09 PM »

Cleveland - thanks! I know! I love Boston already (sorry, Fr. Chris...Smiley. BTW, several posters of this board live there! I look forward to meeting them!

GiC, Gregory, dear brothers, please, don't... I am sorry that my posts ignited this fiery exchange between you two. It's not worth it. After all, you are BOTH right. Yes, a Christian MUST defend his/her faith against neo-paganism, secularism and what not, and yes, a Christian MUST do it carefully, tactfully, without hurting or demeaning others.

Moderators, - I am very grateful to people for their very sound advice and for the great links to Paschal services. May I ask that you lock this thread, because I really don't want to provoke heated debates during the Holy Week. Whatever your decision, thank you.
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« Reply #113 on: April 22, 2008, 07:06:08 PM »

Demetrios wrote:  Welcome to Orthodoxy and this forum Gregory.

Thank you, Demetrios.  I have been Orthodox for almost 4 years, now, and I am so thankful for it!
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« Reply #114 on: April 22, 2008, 07:09:05 PM »

Welcome to Orthodoxy and this forum Gregory. A little advice, if I may. Make sure you ware your bullet proof vest after hitting the post button. As I always do. Cheesy

Well, at least a flame retardant jacket if taking greekischristian seriously, most of the time, (which few do).
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« Reply #115 on: April 22, 2008, 07:09:26 PM »

Heorhij wrote: "GiC, Gregory, dear brothers, please, don't... I am sorry that my posts ignited this fiery exchange between you two. It's not worth it. After all, you are BOTH right. Yes, a Christian MUST defend his/her faith against neo-paganism, secularism and what not, and yes, a Christian MUST do it carefully, tactfully, without hurting or demeaning others.

"Moderators, - I am very grateful to people for their very sound advice and for the great links to Paschal services. May I ask that you lock this thread, because I really don't want to provoke heated debates during the Holy Week. Whatever your decision, thank you."  
 
George, you are so right.  Please forgive me, George and all of my brothers and sisters, for engaging in this argument, especially during Holy Week.  God bless you, George, for your wonderful demeanor.  May the Lord make me more like that.

Gregory
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« Reply #116 on: April 22, 2008, 07:12:01 PM »

By the way, not only am I now Orthodox, but also became a Godfather a week ago!  I had better stop this arguing before he can understand what I am saying!
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« Reply #117 on: April 22, 2008, 07:20:06 PM »

Obviously you have already heard the "party line".  Your point is, uh, what?  That because you have heard it and rejected it then it cannot possibly be true?  LOL  What arrogance.

How about the clear superiority of cultures that have adopted this ideology over those that have not? Societies that have embraced enlightenment thinking and egalitarianism have higher GDP's, higher standards of living, and longer life expectancies than those that have failed to adopt our values. Our our economic and social progress are strongly linked to our cultural and intellectual progress, they would be impossible without a fundamental respect for autonomy and individualism and, likewise, economic comfort causes moderation and tolerance.

Quote
I am repeating the "party line" because it is true.  What else should I espouse, the paganism disguised as progress that calls the teachings of the Christian faith outdated, behind the times and socially unacceptable?  I am a Christian, after all.

Sounds similar to the arguments of the apologists for the particular institution in the antebellum South...I'm sure your type will go the same way.

Quote
As for the party line, I have heard yours many, many times. Heck, one can barely turn on the television or radio without hearing it.  Yes, indeed, it is very, very popular.  The broad road always is.

I only listen to country music radio and I don't watch TV...so I guess I wouldn't know. But perhaps the script writers and myself read the same philosophers.

Quote
Your arguments are very, very weak, by the way.  Statements like, "you are just plain wrong" and "I've heard the party line before" and "It's your fault because civilization has left you behind and you have failed to put forth any effort to catch up" are just not arguments that are going to prove your point very well.  Someone said you are educated.  I'm surprised that this is the best you can do, being educated and all.

My arguments are weak!?! Granted, arguing on account of social norms isn't the best of all possible arguments, but it's quite a step up from arguing based on what you think your imaginary friend in the sky told you.

Quote
I am really going to try to resist commenting on your statements, from now on.  I have doon a poor job, so far.  But, really, it is clear that your statements reflect a deep bias, an attempt to "Christianize" at least portions of modern, secular thought, and a disdain for those who hold to traditional Chrisitan teaching, at least when it comes to certain issues that just feel right to you.

Well, respond or don't...your call. But if you're not here to discuss and debate, what are you here for?
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« Reply #118 on: April 22, 2008, 07:21:09 PM »

By the way, not only am I now Orthodox, but also became a Godfather a week ago!  I had better stop this arguing before he can understand what I am saying!
I hope you stick around. Congrats on becoming a godfather.
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« Reply #119 on: April 22, 2008, 07:24:09 PM »

GiC, Gregory, dear brothers, please, don't... I am sorry that my posts ignited this fiery exchange between you two. It's not worth it. After all, you are BOTH right. Yes, a Christian MUST defend his/her faith against neo-paganism, secularism and what not, and yes, a Christian MUST do it carefully, tactfully, without hurting or demeaning others.

Moderators, - I am very grateful to people for their very sound advice and for the great links to Paschal services. May I ask that you lock this thread, because I really don't want to provoke heated debates during the Holy Week. Whatever your decision, thank you.

George, I hope you don't take our friendly exchange too hard. It's debates like these that make it worth sticking around. Wink Of course, it doesn't matter to me whether it's holy week or not, but if it does to someone else I would understand their trying avoid debate (well, in theory I might understand...though I never found a time when I tried to avoid ti myself Wink)
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« Reply #120 on: April 22, 2008, 07:26:09 PM »

By the way, not only am I now Orthodox, but also became a Godfather a week ago!  I had better stop this arguing before he can understand what I am saying!
Congratulations! Παντά Αχιος! (May you always be worthy!)
Good Pascha to you both!
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« Reply #121 on: April 22, 2008, 08:30:10 PM »

Dear Heorhij,
I am so sorry to hear about such a situation. My sincere sympathies. You are in my thoughts and prayers.

While sometimes I live in some areas longer, sometimes shorter, but currently I am in Boston and my total length of stay in this city equals almost ( 8 ) years. You will definitely love here. I second Cleveland's comment. Also, Saint Andrew's Ukrainian Orthodox Church is a great parish, and you will be a wonderful fit. Indeed, it is easy to become a fit there!

PrincessMommy, similarly, my sincere sympathies. You are in my prayers as well.



EDIT:  'Cool' changed to '8 )' to eliminate unintended smiley  -PtA (sorry, PSBob)
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« Reply #122 on: April 22, 2008, 09:33:21 PM »

But, like I said, so far she had only negative experience in dealing with religious people and she really, seriously dislikes them, virtually all of them.

In that regard, she and I have something in common.  Seems the Lord had similar feelings, considering the company He kept.
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« Reply #123 on: April 22, 2008, 09:40:11 PM »

I think you are partially right. I do need a reminder, every now and then, that "man's enemies are his relatives," etc. I know that Christ brought not peace but division ("sword"). I experience this "sword" every single day. But the thing is, how to react to this division, what to do about it. Perhaps the best strategy is not to do anything rash, dramatic, "in-your-face." Staying at home and celebrating Pascha with my wife would probably be a good idea. After all, she is a Ukrainian woman, and she loves old Ukrainian customs; we will paint eggs together, and fry stuffed sausage, and drink Luksusova (ahh, it's Polish, but we could not find any Ukrainian "horilka" anywhere, and we don't want "Stoli" for the life of us!!!). And I will listen to the audio links that the people from this group have so kindly provided, and she will listen, too, and I will cross her and bless her (btw, I do it every morning before going to work, and she does not mind!). And, as always, I'll just keep hoping in my heart, "maybe next year..." Smiley

Next year, Kyiv!
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« Reply #124 on: April 22, 2008, 09:45:39 PM »

You mean your wife only has problems with religious people- never with non-religious ones? Has she ever read C.S.Lewis' Mere Christianity? What does she think about the Saints?  (forgive all these questions, George! Embarrassed). What can we as Christians do better so as not to be offensive to people as your wife (although if we don't have a Phd obviously we won't stand a chance anyhow)?
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« Reply #125 on: April 22, 2008, 10:27:02 PM »

Welcome Gregory and congratulations on becoming a godfather!

 :)Juliana
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« Reply #126 on: April 22, 2008, 11:47:09 PM »

greekis... wrote: Separate is inherently unequal. Nice rhetoric you have there but a) I've already heard the party line, try something different for a change, and b) it's a bunch of nonsense your, distopian theory has no bearing on reality.

Obviously you have already heard the "party line".  Your point is, uh, what?  That because you have heard it and rejected it then it cannot possibly be true?  LOL  What arrogance.

I am repeating the "party line" because it is true.  What else should I espouse, the paganism disguised as progress that calls the teachings of the Christian faith outdated, behind the times and socially unacceptable?  I am a Christian, after all.

As for the party line, I have heard yours many, many times. Heck, one can barely turn on the television or radio without hearing it.  Yes, indeed, it is very, very popular.  The broad road always is.

Your arguments are very, very weak, by the way.  Statements like, "you are just plain wrong" and "I've heard the party line before" and "It's your fault because civilization has left you behind and you have failed to put forth any effort to catch up" are just not arguments that are going to prove your point very well.  Someone said you are educated.  I'm surprised that this is the best you can do, being educated and all. 

I am really going to try to resist commenting on your statements, from now on.  I have doon a poor job, so far.  But, really, it is clear that your statements reflect a deep bias, an attempt to "Christianize" at least portions of modern, secular thought, and a disdain for those who hold to traditional Chrisitan teaching, at least when it comes to certain issues that just feel right to you.
Well, Gregory, I hope you get the idea that GiC does NOT represent the viewpoint of most persons on this forum. His pov is purely his own. Cool
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« Reply #127 on: April 23, 2008, 01:02:06 AM »

Well, Gregory, I hope you get the idea that GiC does NOT represent the viewpoint of most persons on this forum. His pov is purely his own. Cool

Amen.
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« Reply #128 on: April 23, 2008, 01:32:26 AM »

Well, Gregory, I hope you get the idea that GiC does NOT represent the viewpoint of most persons on this forum. His pov is purely his own. Cool

Trust me Peter, considering the people who post here, I must say I'm quite glad I don't represent them. The fact that I'm amongst them is bad enough, as soon as I start identifying with them ideologically, I need to be taken infront of a brick wall and shot.
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« Reply #129 on: April 23, 2008, 01:40:24 AM »

Trust me Peter, considering the people who post here, I must say I'm quite glad I don't represent them. The fact that I'm amongst them is bad enough, as soon as I start identifying with them ideologically, I need to be taken infront of a brick wall and shot.
Fortunately, I don't have an itchy trigger finger. Grin
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« Reply #130 on: April 23, 2008, 02:54:44 AM »

drink Luksusova (ahh, it's Polish, but we could not find any Ukrainian "horilka" anywhere, and we don't want "Stoli" for the life of us!!!).

The most sensible post of the thread  Smiley

All that's missing is a few bottles of Obolon'! 
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« Reply #131 on: April 23, 2008, 07:54:58 AM »

You mean your wife only has problems with religious people- never with non-religious ones? Has she ever read C.S.Lewis' Mere Christianity? What does she think about the Saints?  (forgive all these questions, George! Embarrassed). What can we as Christians do better so as not to be offensive to people as your wife (although if we don't have a Phd obviously we won't stand a chance anyhow)?

Well, of course she had problems with secular, non-believing people as well, but, nonetheless, over years we acquired a number of very good friends (all non-believers), with whom she does not have any problems. But as for Christians, believers, those who admit that they believe in Christ, go to church, etc. - my wife could never be friends with even one such person. Somehow they always let her down very quickly, one way or other.

She will never read even one line of C.S. Lewis...
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« Reply #132 on: April 23, 2008, 09:11:16 AM »

The anti-religion left-wing intellectual movement seems to be quite common among the educated class.  They look for "logic" and of course that is not compatible with faith.  And they are turned off by the political evangelical movement (as am I!)  I am blessed that my life has been touched by God in so many ways that I would be a fool to deny Him.  I feel sorry for anyone who has not seen God in this way.  I have many friends who share this opinion (most of whom I met at school).  They are still good people, but they are lacking this light in their lives.  I would, however, expect my views to be respected, and I can't help but see a tremendous amount of disrespect in not allowing someone to attend worship services at the most holy and blessed time of the year.
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« Reply #133 on: April 23, 2008, 09:32:36 AM »

The anti-religion left-wing intellectual movement seems to be quite common among the educated class.

Hmmm...go figure.

Quote
They look for "logic" and of course that is not compatible with faith.

I guess that would depend on your faith, but you're right, logic generally isn't compatable with classical religion.

Quote
And they are turned off by the political evangelical movement (as am I!)  I am blessed that my life has been touched by God in so many ways that I would be a fool to deny Him.  I feel sorry for anyone who has not seen God in this way.  I have many friends who share this opinion (most of whom I met at school).  They are still good people, but they are lacking this light in their lives.

How touching...really...

Quote
I would, however, expect my views to be respected, and I can't help but see a tremendous amount of disrespect in not allowing someone to attend worship services at the most holy and blessed time of the year.

Why should religious views be specifically respected? You're asking for a level of respect that isn't generally given to people's opinions be they political opinions, opinions about music, opinions about food, etc. I mean, would you find it so terrible if his wife objected to him going to the communist party meeting out of town or to some Rap concert or, heck, to go see his favourite stripper...I mean, afterall, shouldn't one's views be respected on these things?
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« Reply #134 on: April 23, 2008, 09:39:37 AM »

Ideally, I'd love for my wife to respect my opinion on EVERYTHING.  Generally she does.

But I don't consider someone's religion to be equal to their political views or taste in music.  If you do, you have a gross misunderstanding of what place religion must take in your life.
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« Reply #135 on: April 23, 2008, 09:49:33 AM »

Ideally, I'd love for my wife to respect my opinion on EVERYTHING.  Generally she does.

But I don't consider someone's religion to be equal to their political views or taste in music.  If you do, you have a gross misunderstanding of what place religion must take in your life.


Stewie. You are a better man than I am. You must have a boom shelter in your basement. Cheesy
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« Reply #136 on: April 23, 2008, 09:51:14 AM »

Ideally, I'd love for my wife to respect my opinion on EVERYTHING.  Generally she does.

Even on strippers?

Quote
But I don't consider someone's religion to be equal to their political views or taste in music.  If you do, you have a gross misunderstanding of what place religion must take in your life.

I have a 'gross misunderstanding' because you 'don't consider'...sorry, I fail to see the logic in your argument? Or am I simply expected to have faith in it? Wink

The significance of religion comes from the impact it has on various societies, it's probably a bit more significant that music, but less so than politics. But, of course, non of these are inherently worthy of respect; if you're a member of the communist party, I'm not going to respect your political opinion, if you practice traditional or fundamentalist religion I'm probably going to react the same way. Sure, you have a right in our society to believe as you see fit, but I don't know where on earth these demands of 'respect' come from; the respect you get is the securing of your individual rights by society, but you're asking too much if you expect us to disrespect ourselves and our own beliefs by pretending your beliefs are reasonable and somehow beneficial.
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« Reply #137 on: April 23, 2008, 10:06:15 AM »

I think we need to be careful that we respect the struggle many men have in maintaining purity of mind by our choice of words-please. Does not the Bible say there are some things which ought not to even be named among us?

"Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble,whatever things are just,whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy-meditate on these things." Philippians 4:8
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« Reply #138 on: April 23, 2008, 10:15:51 AM »

I think we need to be careful that we respect the struggle many men have in maintaining purity of mind by our choice of words-please. Does not the Bible say there are some things which ought not to even be named among us?

What is this 'respect' fetish everyone has today? Did you read any of my posts? Why is this worthy of some special respect?

Respect must be earned, it's not given to something just because someone else thinks it's special.
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« Reply #139 on: April 23, 2008, 10:46:49 AM »

George, I hope you don't take our friendly exchange too hard.

No. You know, I always like to read your interesting, original posts, even when you express some views that are not quite mine (like that there is no difference for you between the Holy week and any other week - for me there is, I want to be obedient to my Church). You are a good person and an outstanding debater. I just did not want this exchange to turn into "ad hominems."
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« Reply #140 on: April 23, 2008, 10:50:51 AM »

Next year, Kyiv!

Maybe! Or maybe Boston... but definitely with a bottle of Horilka z pertsem! Smiley
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« Reply #141 on: April 23, 2008, 10:59:31 AM »

What is this 'respect' fetish everyone has today? Did you read any of my posts? Why is this worthy of some special respect?

where I come from and where I live, Orthodox Christians are a very tiny minority.  If you don't have respect for other viewpoints, don't be surprised when others cease to have respect for yours.

Respect must be earned, it's not given to something just because someone else thinks it's special.

I agree... to a point.  But one must have the humility to be aware that we often see things from a biased viewpoint.  My own opinion on whether something is or is not "earned" is just that... my opinion, and others will often disagree.  I try my best to show respect to everyone at all times, whether I agree with them or not... it is a constant struggle, but I try.


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« Reply #142 on: April 23, 2008, 11:48:04 AM »

where I come from and where I live, Orthodox Christians are a very tiny minority.  If you don't have respect for other viewpoints, don't be surprised when others cease to have respect for yours.

Fortunately, where I come from religious people in general are a very tiny minority. In general they are not well respected and we really couldn't care less whether or not they respect us.

Quote
I agree... to a point.  But one must have the humility to be aware that we often see things from a biased viewpoint.  My own opinion on whether something is or is not "earned" is just that... my opinion, and others will often disagree.  I try my best to show respect to everyone at all times, whether I agree with them or not... it is a constant struggle, but I try.

Respect is a subjective concept, if you want someone's respect you have to convince THEM that it has earned respect. Nothing is generally and objectively respectable.
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« Reply #143 on: April 23, 2008, 11:59:57 AM »

Perhaps respect was the wrong term used in my post. I suppose the way I was taught was that as a woman I need to show love and understanding towards my dear brothers in Christ by, for example, dressing and behaving in a modest manner -so as not to stir up within them unnecessary passions. If we love one another we will provoke one another to "love and good works", not to sinful thoughts and actions.  I appreciate this consideration when I receive it from others as well.
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« Reply #144 on: April 23, 2008, 12:06:01 PM »

Perhaps respect was the wrong term used in my post. I suppose the way I was taught was that as a woman I need to show love and understanding towards my dear brothers in Christ by, for example, dressing and behaving in a modest manner -so as not to stir up within them unnecessary passions. If we love one another we will provoke one another to "love and good works", not to sinful thoughts and actions.  I appreciate this consideration when I receive it from others as well.

We don't stir up passions because it's 'necessary', we do so because it's fun and, along with good food and good alcohol, is one of the things that makes life worth living.
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« Reply #145 on: April 23, 2008, 12:24:51 PM »

Well, it looks like I may be in the same boat as you this year George!
I have just returned from hospital!
5 hours ago, I slipped walking down the stairs and hit my right flank and gashed my right elbow!
Nothing is broken (thank God!) and the elbow only needed three stitches.
Thankfully, Gwen (the elderly lady I look after) is in respite care for the Pascha.
I've had morphine in hospital, and I will be on Panadeine Forte and Ibuprofen for the next few days!
Isn't life amazing!
Fortunately, I managed to light a candle for you at Holy Unction before all this happened! Cheesy
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« Reply #146 on: April 23, 2008, 12:49:45 PM »

Oh no!  Lord have mercy on you, George! 
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« Reply #147 on: April 23, 2008, 12:52:58 PM »

Oh no!  Lord have mercy on you, George! 
He has had mercy! He created the opium poppy!
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« Reply #148 on: April 23, 2008, 12:56:42 PM »

Fortunately, I managed to light a candle for you at Holy Unction before all this happened! Cheesy

I think you are doing things in the wrong order.  Best wishes for a speedy recovery! 
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« Reply #149 on: April 23, 2008, 01:01:22 PM »

I think you are doing things in the wrong order.  Best wishes for a speedy recovery! 
LOL!  Cheesy  It could only happen to me!
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« Reply #150 on: April 23, 2008, 01:05:30 PM »

GiC and Ozgeorge,
I've noticed that both of you just adore a good debate. Has this always been a hobby of yours?( independantly, I mean. Obviously it is your hobby to debate on this forum laugh) Do you think that debating in a written format such as this is inhererntly different or the same as debating in person?
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« Reply #151 on: April 23, 2008, 01:15:37 PM »

We don't stir up passions because it's 'necessary', we do so because it's fun and, along with good food and good alcohol, is one of the things that makes life worth living.

I don't know... my priest is constantly telling me we are to strive towards a state of  complete dispassion.
And he isn't some evangelical convert, either. I always thought a certain amount of (appropriate)  passion was good, but apparently I was wrong...
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« Reply #152 on: April 23, 2008, 01:16:54 PM »

GiC and Ozgeorge,
I've noticed that both of you just adore a good debate. Has this always been a hobby of yours?( independantly, I mean. Obviously it is your hobby to debate on this forum laugh) Do you think that debating in a written format such as this is inhererntly different or the same as debating in person?
scyth
Well, being on morphine at the moment, I really don't feel like debating- in fact life is wonderful and everybody's right! Cheesy
Seriously though, I love discussion more than debate, although I don't mind debate as a way of getting to explore a subject. The written format is actually much better, I think, because you have a record of what is said. On the down side, it lacks the nuances of speech and body language.
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« Reply #153 on: April 23, 2008, 01:17:07 PM »

Ozgeorge, I'm sorry to hear about your unfortunate mishap. Hope you are feeling better soon!
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« Reply #154 on: April 23, 2008, 01:24:02 PM »

He has had mercy! He created the opium poppy!
 


hmmmm

 Grin Grin Grin Grin
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« Reply #155 on: April 23, 2008, 01:53:30 PM »

Oh, by the way OzG, I also hope you feel better soon, too. (forgot to add that! Embarrassed) I am just a bit scatterbrained!
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« Reply #156 on: April 23, 2008, 01:57:35 PM »

Well, it looks like I may be in the same boat as you this year George!
I have just returned from hospital!
5 hours ago, I slipped walking down the stairs and hit my right flank and gashed my right elbow!
Nothing is broken (thank God!) and the elbow only needed three stitches.
Thankfully, Gwen (the elderly lady I look after) is in respite care for the Pascha.
I've had morphine in hospital, and I will be on Panadeine Forte and Ibuprofen for the next few days!
Isn't life amazing!
Fortunately, I managed to light a candle for you at Holy Unction before all this happened! Cheesy

Lord, have mercy! Please get better soon, George. Thank you for the candle.
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« Reply #157 on: April 23, 2008, 02:04:12 PM »

He has had mercy! He created the opium poppy!

 Cheesy

I'm gonna have to quote that.
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« Reply #158 on: April 23, 2008, 05:18:34 PM »

Ideally, I'd love for my wife to respect my opinion on EVERYTHING.  Generally she does.

But I don't consider someone's religion to be equal to their political views or taste in music.  If you do, you have a gross misunderstanding of what place religion must take in your life.


I know I am going to express this very poorly.  Forgive me.
This is different than taste in music, political veiws, etc.  The purpose of Marriage is mutual salvation.  In fact, one of the unique things about Orthodoxy is the emphasis on "we are saved together".  I have made mistakes and wish that  I had been wiser in taking these things in to consideration before my husband and I ended up in different churches.  (the decision was made with cool heads, mutual understanding, and respect...but that did not spare us the wedge it has driven between us).
I can never forsake my Lord, and I believe the Orthodox Church contains the fullness of faith.  But sometimes even the right thing can be wrong when you put to much trust in your own wisdom and what seems to be the right path.  I will never know if being more willing to trust that God would have been able to accomplish through Grace what I thought I could do by I could do by taking a stand and showing my commitment to choose Christ before all things.

Things may have turned out the same, but I know there was a little bit too much willfulness and pride on both our parts, and now we have more healing to do because of our unwillingness to give God more time and room to work.  The Lord's Grace and Mercy is never exhausted and will cover even our mistakes and foolishness if we forsake our pride and humble our hearts. .

 An offended brother is more unyielding than a fortified city,
       and disputes are like the barred gates of a citadel.

Proverbs 18:19
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« Reply #159 on: April 23, 2008, 05:21:20 PM »

He has had mercy! He created the opium poppy!

^^ LOL - Amen to that! Hope you are mended soon, George.
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« Reply #160 on: April 23, 2008, 05:26:09 PM »

I know I am going to express this very poorly.  Forgive me.
This is different than taste in music, political veiws, etc.  The purpose of Marriage is mutual salvation.  In fact, one of the unique things about Orthodoxy is the emphasis on "we are saved together".  I have made mistakes and wish that  I had been wiser in taking these things in to consideration before my husband and I ended up in different churches.  (the decision was made with cool heads, mutual understanding, and respect...but that did not spare us the wedge it has driven between us).
I can never forsake my Lord, and I believe the Orthodox Church contains the fullness of faith.  But sometimes even the right thing can be wrong when you put to much trust in your own wisdom and what seems to be the right path.  I will never know if being more willing to trust that God would have been able to accomplish through Grace what I thought I could do by I could do by taking a stand and showing my commitment to choose Christ before all things.

Things may have turned out the same, but I know there was a little bit too much willfulness and pride on both our parts, and now we have more healing to do because of our unwillingness to give God more time and room to work.  The Lord's Grace and Mercy is never exhausted and will cover even our mistakes and foolishness if we forsake our pride and humble our hearts. .

 An offended brother is more unyielding than a fortified city,
       and disputes are like the barred gates of a citadel.

Proverbs 18:19

Kaarina, you put that very well.
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« Reply #161 on: April 23, 2008, 05:59:16 PM »

I know I am going to express this very poorly.  Forgive me.
This is different than taste in music, political veiws, etc.  The purpose of Marriage is mutual salvation.  In fact, one of the unique things about Orthodoxy is the emphasis on "we are saved together".  I have made mistakes and wish that  I had been wiser in taking these things in to consideration before my husband and I ended up in different churches.  (the decision was made with cool heads, mutual understanding, and respect...but that did not spare us the wedge it has driven between us).
I can never forsake my Lord, and I believe the Orthodox Church contains the fullness of faith.  But sometimes even the right thing can be wrong when you put to much trust in your own wisdom and what seems to be the right path.  I will never know if being more willing to trust that God would have been able to accomplish through Grace what I thought I could do by I could do by taking a stand and showing my commitment to choose Christ before all things.

Things may have turned out the same, but I know there was a little bit too much willfulness and pride on both our parts, and now we have more healing to do because of our unwillingness to give God more time and room to work.  The Lord's Grace and Mercy is never exhausted and will cover even our mistakes and foolishness if we forsake our pride and humble our hearts. .

 An offended brother is more unyielding than a fortified city,
       and disputes are like the barred gates of a citadel.

Proverbs 18:19

Thank you, Kaarina. That was very wise and inspiring.
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« Reply #162 on: April 28, 2008, 04:06:22 PM »

I have just returned from hospital!
5 hours ago, I slipped walking down the stairs and hit my right flank and gashed my right elbow!
Nothing is broken (thank God!) and the elbow only needed three stitches.

It is so belated reaction from me... Sorry to see this. Best wishes for getting well, OzGeorge. May God help your recovery.
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