OrthodoxChristianity.net
December 18, 2014, 07:10:25 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Why is the Theotokos called the "Queen of Heaven"?  (Read 5777 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
PoorFoolNicholas
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Theologoumenon
Posts: 1,664


« on: April 19, 2008, 01:21:56 AM »

Why is the Mother of God called the Queen of Heaven? These things always spring up to protect theological teachings and doctrines. What doctrines are protected by calling the Blessed Mother the Queen of Heaven? What motivated this title being used? God Bless You All!
Logged
Salpy
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,890


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2008, 01:37:41 AM »

I always assumed she was queen in the sense of "Queen Mother," because her Son is King.  In other words, this title, like the title Mother of God, is really a statement about Christ.
Logged

prodromas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Under the Green Pope
Posts: 1,239

Greek Orthodox


« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2008, 08:09:59 AM »

If the heavens cannot circumscribe the Lord yet He was truly circumscribed in the Theotokos womb then she is greater than the heavens, thus Queen. I don't know this is just my take on it.
Logged

The sins I don't commit are largely due to the weakness of my limbs.

1915-1923 Հայոց Ցեղասպանութիւն ,never again,
ܩܛܠܐ ܕܥܡܐ ܐܬܘܪܝܐ 1920-1914, never again,
השואה  1933-1945, never again,
(1914-1923) Ελληνική Γενοκτονία, never again
Myrrh23
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,639



« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2008, 05:11:20 PM »

Maybe She's called "Queen of Heaven" because us wayward children need a mother.... Wink
Logged

*I am no longer posting on OC.net*

We all have a Black Dog and a White Dog inside of us. The One you feed the most eventually eats the Other.

All are tempted, but it is the courageous person who clings to God during the storm. For the Ego is a prison, but Christ is the Liberator
Veniamin
Fire for Effect!
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the South
Posts: 3,372


St. Barbara, patroness of the Field Artillery


« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2008, 05:17:30 PM »

I always assumed she was queen in the sense of "Queen Mother," because her Son is King.  In other words, this title, like the title Mother of God, is really a statement about Christ.

That's always been my understanding of it, as well.  All of the things we call Our Lady are statements about who her Son is.
Logged

Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. ~Frederick the Great
zoarthegleaner
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 398



« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2008, 10:49:40 PM »

Psalm 45 KJV

1  My heart is inditing a good matter:
         I speak of the things which I have made touching the King:
my tongue is the pen of a ready writer.
 
 
2  Thou art fairer than the children of men:
         grace is poured into thy lips:
therefore God hath blessed thee for ever.
 
 
3  Gird thy sword upon thy thigh, O most Mighty,
         with thy glory and thy majesty.
 
 
4  And in thy majesty ride prosperously,
         because of truth and meekness and righteousness;
and thy right hand shall teach thee terrible things.
 
 
5  Thine arrows are sharp
         in the heart of the King's enemies;
whereby the people fall under thee.
 
 
6  Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever:
         the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
 
 
7  Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness:
         therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee
with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. Heb. 1.8, 9 
 
 
8  All thy garments smell of myrrh, and aloes, and cassia,
         out of the ivory palaces,
whereby they have made thee glad.
 
 
9  Kings' daughters were among thy honorable women:
         upon thy right hand did stand the queen in gold of Ophir.
 
 
10  Hearken, O daughter, and consider, and incline thine ear;
         forget also thine own people, and thy father's house;
 
 
11  so shall the King greatly desire thy beauty:
         for he is thy Lord; and worship thou him.
 
 
12  And the daughter of Tyre shall be there with a gift;
         even the rich among the people shall entreat thy favor.
 
 
13  The King's daughter is all glorious within:
         her clothing is of wrought gold.
 
 
14  She shall be brought unto the King in raiment of needlework:
         the virgins her companions that follow her shall be brought unto thee.
 
 
15  With gladness and rejoicing shall they be brought:
         they shall enter into the King's palace.
 
 
16  Instead of thy fathers shall be thy children,
         whom thou mayest make princes in all the earth.
 
 
17  I will make thy name to be remembered in all generations:
         therefore shall the people praise thee for ever and ever
 
 
Logged

Courteous is my name,
and I have always aimed to live up to it.
Grace is also my name,
but when things go wrong
its Courteous whom I blame;
but its Grace who sees me through it.
Alveus Lacuna
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Posts: 6,964



« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2008, 12:49:34 AM »

Just my uninformed interpretation, but I wanted to throw it out anyway.  As the Theotokos is the most honored of all the saints, bearing the title "Most Holy" as opposed to the usual "Holy Apostle so and so", I've come to think of it as another way of saying "Chief of the Saints."  I hope that makes sense.
Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,404


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2008, 01:01:03 PM »

Do Eastern Orthodox Christians also refer to her as Queen of Saints?
Logged

You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,828


WWW
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2008, 01:55:39 PM »

^ No.
Logged
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,144


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2008, 01:57:46 PM »

Do Eastern Orthodox Christians also refer to her as Queen of Saints?

I haven't encountered that phrase (or if I have, I don't remember it).  However, in iconographic depictions of All Saints, she is given a special place; and her title "Queen of Heaven" I suppose leads to the belief that she is Queen of All the Saints.
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
zoarthegleaner
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 398



« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2008, 03:06:27 PM »

"I haven't encountered that phrase (or if I have, I don't remember it).  However, in iconographic depictions of All Saints, she is given a special place; and her title "Queen of Heaven" I suppose leads to the belief that she is Queen of All the Saints."

She is the Queen of ALL...I guess that includes the Saints?


Logged

Courteous is my name,
and I have always aimed to live up to it.
Grace is also my name,
but when things go wrong
its Courteous whom I blame;
but its Grace who sees me through it.
JoeS
(aka StMarkEofE)
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,122


Global Warming Enthusiast.


« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2009, 11:35:31 PM »

Do Eastern Orthodox Christians also refer to her as Queen of Saints?

I haven't encountered that phrase (or if I have, I don't remember it).  However, in iconographic depictions of All Saints, she is given a special place; and her title "Queen of Heaven" I suppose leads to the belief that she is Queen of All the Saints.

She is the Saint of all Saints.

She is the Mother of God,  Saint of all Saints, queen may not properly describe how exhaulted she really is (IMHO).
« Last Edit: March 09, 2009, 11:37:49 PM by JoeS » Logged
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2009, 06:36:35 AM »

Just came across this.

Jeremiah 7:16-20

16 Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to me: for I will not hear thee. 17 Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? 18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger. 19 Do they provoke me to anger? saith the LORD: do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces? 20 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, mine anger and my fury shall be poured out upon this place, upon man, and upon beast, and upon the trees of the field, and upon the fruit of the ground; and it shall burn, and shall not be quenched.

Shocked Shocked Shocked

Given the scriptural context for such words as "Queen of Heaven" I think i'll refrain from using them, just to be on the safe side.

Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2009, 08:54:08 AM »

Just came across this.

Jeremiah 7:16-20

16 Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to me: for I will not hear thee. 17 Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? 18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger. 19 Do they provoke me to anger? saith the LORD: do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces? 20 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, mine anger and my fury shall be poured out upon this place, upon man, and upon beast, and upon the trees of the field, and upon the fruit of the ground; and it shall burn, and shall not be quenched.

Shocked Shocked Shocked

Given the scriptural context for such words as "Queen of Heaven" I think i'll refrain from using them, just to be on the safe side.

Ortho_cat, you need to get yourself a Septuagint version of the OT. The Septuagint (the only BC version apart from the Dead Sea Scrolls) has "to make cakes to the hosts of heaven".
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
HandmaidenofGod
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA (Ecumenical Patriarch)
Posts: 3,397


O Holy St. Demetrius pray to God for us!


« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2009, 09:48:55 AM »

Just came across this.

Jeremiah 7:16-20

16 Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to me: for I will not hear thee. 17 Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? 18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger. 19 Do they provoke me to anger? saith the LORD: do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces? 20 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, mine anger and my fury shall be poured out upon this place, upon man, and upon beast, and upon the trees of the field, and upon the fruit of the ground; and it shall burn, and shall not be quenched.

Shocked Shocked Shocked

Given the scriptural context for such words as "Queen of Heaven" I think i'll refrain from using them, just to be on the safe side.

Ortho_cat, you need to get yourself a Septuagint version of the OT. The Septuagint (the only BC version apart from the Dead Sea Scrolls) has "to make cakes to the hosts of heaven".

Thank you for clarifying this OzGeorge. I  had read the same passage years ago in a Protestant Bible, and have just been to lazy to look it up since acquiring my Orthodox Study Bible. Smiley

In regards to the phrase "Queen of Heaven," I just trusted that the Church Fathers knew what they were doing, and trusted their authority over my measely interpretation of scripture.
Logged

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2009, 10:06:49 PM »

Just came across this.

Jeremiah 7:16-20

16 Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to me: for I will not hear thee. 17 Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? 18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger. 19 Do they provoke me to anger? saith the LORD: do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces? 20 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, mine anger and my fury shall be poured out upon this place, upon man, and upon beast, and upon the trees of the field, and upon the fruit of the ground; and it shall burn, and shall not be quenched.

Shocked Shocked Shocked

Given the scriptural context for such words as "Queen of Heaven" I think i'll refrain from using them, just to be on the safe side.

Ortho_cat, you need to get yourself a Septuagint version of the OT. The Septuagint (the only BC version apart from the Dead Sea Scrolls) has "to make cakes to the hosts of heaven".

Hm interesting. Ill check that out, thanks.

[later] As luck would have it, there is a Brenton translation online! I'm good to go now.

http://www.ecmarsh.com/lxx/index.htm
« Last Edit: September 26, 2009, 10:11:56 PM by Ortho_cat » Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2009, 01:26:34 AM »


The burning of incense to the Queen of Heaven and the making of cakes as a sacrifice to her is spoken of in  Jeremiah 51 in the Septuagint.
Logged
Riddikulus
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,788



« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2009, 04:04:03 AM »

Thanks for that info, ozgeorge.

Ortho_cat,

Even if there were a reference to an idolatrous situation with a queen of heaven in the OT, wouldn't refusing to call Mary "The Queen of Heaven" (as one of the titles bestowed upon her by the Christian Church), be like refusing to call Jesus "the Lord of Life" because that's what the pagan Egyptians called Osiris?
« Last Edit: September 27, 2009, 04:04:50 AM by Riddikulus » Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2009, 04:25:02 AM »

I don't think so. Since the scriptures explicitly mentions the term "Queen of Heaven" in a negative sense, and those who referred to someone as such were subject to divine punishment, I personally think it would be best not to refer to anyone as that.
Logged
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,144


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2009, 07:09:58 AM »

I don't think so. Since the scriptures explicitly mentions the term "Queen of Heaven" in a negative sense, and those who referred to someone as such were subject to divine punishment, I personally think it would be best not to refer to anyone as that. 

The title is a title of Grace, which (like Theotokos) points to God more than to Mary (since the Father is the King of All, and Christ is also the King).  And since no one burns incense to the Queen of Heaven (at the offering of incense, the prayer is either to Christ - "incense we offer unto you, Christ our God, as an offering of spiritual fragrance..." - or simply God - "Blessed is our God..."), no one would fall under that OT condemnation anyway.
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2009, 08:43:53 PM »

I don't think so. Since the scriptures explicitly mentions the term "Queen of Heaven" in a negative sense, and those who referred to someone as such were subject to divine punishment, I personally think it would be best not to refer to anyone as that. 

The title is a title of Grace, which (like Theotokos) points to God more than to Mary (since the Father is the King of All, and Christ is also the King).  And since no one burns incense to the Queen of Heaven (at the offering of incense, the prayer is either to Christ - "incense we offer unto you, Christ our God, as an offering of spiritual fragrance..." - or simply God - "Blessed is our God..."), no one would fall under that OT condemnation anyway.

Is censing the icons considered "offering incense to" or "burning incense to" ?
Logged
Riddikulus
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,788



« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2009, 09:06:32 PM »

I don't think so. Since the scriptures explicitly mentions the term "Queen of Heaven" in a negative sense, and those who referred to someone as such were subject to divine punishment, I personally think it would be best not to refer to anyone as that.

You are, of course, entitled to a personal opinion, but don't you think that the early Christian Church was aware of the negative connotations of such an expression when it was decided to confer it upon the Theotokos? However, they saw something else; something that pointed to Christ rather than an idolatrous situation; something that in fact was triumphant over pagan activity. Just as the early Church saw something other than worship of Saturn in certain expressions of Saturnalia; making it possible to accept the birthday of the Sun, as the date that we commemorate the birthday of the Sun of Righteousness, Jesus Christ. Please understand that I don't mean to be rude, but if the Church has Christianised such titles and expressions, making them the applicable to the worship of Christ, is your concern relevant; or is it merely the resulting hangup of reading the bible in isolation of the Traditions of the Church, and the "guilt by association" thinking that one would expect from one coming from a Protestant background?
Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
Salpy
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,890


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2009, 09:11:17 PM »


Is censing the icons considered "offering incense to" or "burning incense to" ?

Read Cleveland's posts in this thread, especially replies 27 and 43:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,21753.msg331593.html#msg331593

The following is from reply 27:

"- Incense is only offered to Christ our God; that incense is then spread around the Church in directions of icons... for the Christian, incense was only offered to The Lord God, and then that incense was spread about the Church like prayer rising to heaven."



The following is from reply 43:

"I suppose then a distinction should be made between "being censed" and "having incense offered."  For all things in the Church are censed - people, building stones, icons, carpet (if present), light fixtures, the altar table, the gifts and the vessels that hold them, etc. - but in each case, when the prayer of offering is made, the prayer is directed solely to God."


Thank you, Cleveland.  They really did learn you goodly in seminary.   Smiley
Logged

Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2009, 09:57:23 PM »

Riddikulus, I have to admit, I think you hit the nail on the head.

Salpy, thank you for providing me with that excellent explanation from Cleveland.

What would I do without you all? Smiley
Logged
wynd
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 502


Transfiguration


« Reply #24 on: September 27, 2009, 10:37:34 PM »

Late to this thread, but I wanted to throw this in. When I was Roman Catholic I had always heard the explanation that in ancient civilizations kings had many brides, so the queen was usually the king's mother and not any of his wives. For example, Solomon's mother Bathsheba was the queen and not any of his 700 wives. Because Mary is the mother of Jesus, the King of Heaven, she becomes the Queen of Heaven.
Logged
bogdan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,615



« Reply #25 on: September 27, 2009, 11:25:12 PM »

Late to this thread, but I wanted to throw this in. When I was Roman Catholic I had always heard the explanation that in ancient civilizations kings had many brides, so the queen was usually the king's mother and not any of his wives. For example, Solomon's mother Bathsheba was the queen and not any of his 700 wives. Because Mary is the mother of Jesus, the King of Heaven, she becomes the Queen of Heaven.
THat's the explanation I've heard too. It's a beautiful picture of the Theotokos' intercessions if you read 1 Kings 2 with that in mind.

19 Bathsheba therefore went to King Solomon, to speak to him for Adonijah. And the king rose up to meet her and bowed down to her, and sat down on his throne and had a throne set for the king’s mother; so she sat at his right hand. 20 Then she said, “I desire one small petition of you; do not refuse me.”
And the king said to her, “Ask it, my mother, for I will not refuse you.”
Logged
Riddikulus
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,788



« Reply #26 on: September 28, 2009, 12:10:26 AM »

Riddikulus, I have to admit, I think you hit the nail on the head.

Salpy, thank you for providing me with that excellent explanation from Cleveland.

What would I do without you all? Smiley

What would we do without each other?  Wink
Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
Riddikulus
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,788



« Reply #27 on: September 28, 2009, 12:13:37 AM »

Late to this thread, but I wanted to throw this in. When I was Roman Catholic I had always heard the explanation that in ancient civilizations kings had many brides, so the queen was usually the king's mother and not any of his wives. For example, Solomon's mother Bathsheba was the queen and not any of his 700 wives. Because Mary is the mother of Jesus, the King of Heaven, she becomes the Queen of Heaven.
THat's the explanation I've heard too. It's a beautiful picture of the Theotokos' intercessions if you read 1 Kings 2 with that in mind.

19 Bathsheba therefore went to King Solomon, to speak to him for Adonijah. And the king rose up to meet her and bowed down to her, and sat down on his throne and had a throne set for the king’s mother; so she sat at his right hand. 20 Then she said, “I desire one small petition of you; do not refuse me.”
And the king said to her, “Ask it, my mother, for I will not refuse you.”

Yes, beautiful! Thanks to both you and wynd for this.
Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,144


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #28 on: September 28, 2009, 03:50:15 PM »

Late to this thread, but I wanted to throw this in. When I was Roman Catholic I had always heard the explanation that in ancient civilizations kings had many brides, so the queen was usually the king's mother and not any of his wives. For example, Solomon's mother Bathsheba was the queen and not any of his 700 wives. Because Mary is the mother of Jesus, the King of Heaven, she becomes the Queen of Heaven.
THat's the explanation I've heard too. It's a beautiful picture of the Theotokos' intercessions if you read 1 Kings 2 with that in mind.

19 Bathsheba therefore went to King Solomon, to speak to him for Adonijah. And the king rose up to meet her and bowed down to her, and sat down on his throne and had a throne set for the king’s mother; so she sat at his right hand. 20 Then she said, “I desire one small petition of you; do not refuse me.”
And the king said to her, “Ask it, my mother, for I will not refuse you.”

Great example!
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
GammaRay
The Awful Preacher
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 574


Alexandros Papadiamantis


« Reply #29 on: September 29, 2009, 03:43:54 PM »

If your son is the Son of the King (i.e: He's the prince Tongue), then you are the Queen.
Logged

Though I've walked the valley of the shadow of the death, I've fallen not. Not completely. Not yet.
sprtslvr1973
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA; Jurisdiaction of Dallas and the South
Posts: 684


"Behold I stand at the Door and Knock" Rev. 3:20


« Reply #30 on: December 03, 2009, 03:39:37 PM »

I heard some fairly good explanations, esp froM Wynd. But how does one differentiate between the Queen of Heaven that irritates God and Mary?
Logged

"Into thy hands I commend my spirit"- Luke 23:46
“Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!” - Mark 9:24
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #31 on: December 03, 2009, 06:07:30 PM »

Hmm...don't make cakes for her or offer incense?  Tongue
« Last Edit: December 03, 2009, 06:07:50 PM by Ortho_cat » Logged
Riddikulus
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,788



« Reply #32 on: December 03, 2009, 06:47:11 PM »

I heard some fairly good explanations, esp froM Wynd. But how does one differentiate between the Queen of Heaven that irritates God and Mary?

I'm pretty sure that you would have to revive an ancient religious practice to incur the Old Testament condemnation. Wink The title Queen of Heaven as referenced by the prophet Jeremiah probably refers to Asherah, a goddess worshipped in ancient Israel and Judah (Jer, 7:18 and 44:17). I would think that's an historical event that we can't replicate; so the question is probably moot.


Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
sprtslvr1973
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA; Jurisdiaction of Dallas and the South
Posts: 684


"Behold I stand at the Door and Knock" Rev. 3:20


« Reply #33 on: December 03, 2009, 07:38:39 PM »

Thank you Ridikilus,
As I mentioned to AB Lazar Puhalo I thought maybe God was warning us not to venerate Mary to the point of igoring him. I did not know that Asurah or Ishtar for that matter were called the Queen of Heaven. If so than your explanation may work well.
Logged

"Into thy hands I commend my spirit"- Luke 23:46
“Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!” - Mark 9:24
sprtslvr1973
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA; Jurisdiaction of Dallas and the South
Posts: 684


"Behold I stand at the Door and Knock" Rev. 3:20


« Reply #34 on: December 04, 2009, 11:33:24 AM »

This from Archbishop Lazar Puhalo:
Jeremiah wrote over a century before Mary was born. He was referring to the goddess Easter (also called Astarte, Astroth, etc in various languages). The goddess Easter was elevated to the same level as YHVH, and because Israel no longer wanted her "spousal relationship" with God, they began to believe that Easter was the spouse of God in place of Israel. The verse does not refer to Mary. The Roman Catholic Church does refer to Mary as "queen of heaven," because she is the mother of Christ the King, but they do not place here as a goddess. You will note that in the Orthodox Church we do not use the term Easter for the feast of Christ's Resurrection, but rather the traditional term "Pascha."

He went on to say that the OC typically does not refer to Mary as Queen of Heaven
Logged

"Into thy hands I commend my spirit"- Luke 23:46
“Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!” - Mark 9:24
Father H
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian--God's One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: UOCofUSA-Ecumenical Patriarchate
Posts: 2,611



« Reply #35 on: December 04, 2009, 04:11:57 PM »

The Akathystos to the Mother of God in honor of her Dormition and Translation (in short Akathyst for the Dormition) says the following:

"Rejoice, Queen of Heaven"
a little further on:
"Rejoice Queen of the cherubim and seraphim!"
a little later:
"Rejoice Queen of Christians and after God the hope of the heavenly Kingdom"   (if she is Queen of Christians, then she is certainly Queen of Saints, Christians who have "finished the race"). 

She is also called "Queen of noetic light" and "queen of queens" and "Queen of heaven and earth"

Logged
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #36 on: December 04, 2009, 06:50:04 PM »

Ok, how about attributing to her the "Bride of God"? That term one has always confused me. Isn't the bride supposed to be the Church?
Logged
sprtslvr1973
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA; Jurisdiaction of Dallas and the South
Posts: 684


"Behold I stand at the Door and Knock" Rev. 3:20


« Reply #37 on: December 04, 2009, 06:57:24 PM »

Ok, how about attributing to her the "Bride of God"? That term one has always confused me. Isn't the bride supposed to be the Church?
Yeah that's a new one. Besides its a little hard to be a mother and bride...

But I really don't want to challenege evrything the martyrs of the church have done. Their faith is one that is greater than mine, Hebrews 12:1
« Last Edit: December 04, 2009, 06:57:51 PM by sprtslvr1973 » Logged

"Into thy hands I commend my spirit"- Luke 23:46
“Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!” - Mark 9:24
witega
Is it enough now, to tell you you matter?
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Diocese of the South
Posts: 1,614


« Reply #38 on: December 04, 2009, 07:19:08 PM »

Ok, how about attributing to her the "Bride of God"? That term one has always confused me. Isn't the bride supposed to be the Church?

As the first human being to accept Christ, the first human being to be united to Him (when He took His human nature from her), the Theotokos is an exemplar of the Church and is thus a fitting recipient of the Church's titles. Or to put it another way, yes, the Church is the Bride of Christ; which means we are all the Bride of Christ. And when the work of salvation began in her womb, the Theotokos was the first to have that name.
Logged

Ariel Starling - New album

For it were better to suffer everything, rather than divide the Church of God. Even martyrdom for the sake of preventing division would not be less glorious than for refusing to worship idols. - St. Dionysius the Great
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #39 on: December 04, 2009, 07:28:04 PM »

I guess that makes sense. However, being mother and bride at the same time is still rather confusing to me...  Huh
Logged
LBK
No Reporting Allowed
Warned
Toumarches
************
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11,592


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #40 on: December 05, 2009, 11:36:02 AM »

I guess that makes sense. However, being mother and bride at the same time is still rather confusing to me...  Huh

No more "confusing" than the title Theotokos. And there is much hymnody, particularly in  where the Mother of God refers to Christ as "my son and my God".
Logged
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,494


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #41 on: December 05, 2009, 11:48:04 AM »

Look at it this way.  If Mary is the mother of Jesus and has God as his father, is she not the Bride of God?

Since we're dealing with a mystery, something that is above what we see as natural, it will be hard to reconcile these illogical mysteries within our all-too-logical mind.  I find it helps to just take them one at a time and not try to figure out the "how" but rather focus on the "why".  Remember, everything that call Mary inevitably points to her Son and our God, Jesus Christ.
Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
Father H
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian--God's One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: UOCofUSA-Ecumenical Patriarchate
Posts: 2,611



« Reply #42 on: December 05, 2009, 09:30:49 PM »

St. John of Damascus Sermon 2 on the Translation (Assumption) of Mary:
"The place of the Bride whom the Father had espoused was in the heavenly courts"
Logged
zoarthegleaner
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 398



« Reply #43 on: November 27, 2011, 10:01:11 AM »

Song of Solomon 3:11   depicts in Old testament Image the crowning of Solomon by his Mother.   This image is fulfilled in the Incarnation; for our Lord Receives His Humanity (His Crown) from His Mother. 

john
Logged

Courteous is my name,
and I have always aimed to live up to it.
Grace is also my name,
but when things go wrong
its Courteous whom I blame;
but its Grace who sees me through it.
Father H
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian--God's One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: UOCofUSA-Ecumenical Patriarchate
Posts: 2,611



« Reply #44 on: November 27, 2011, 05:51:04 PM »

I always assumed she was queen in the sense of "Queen Mother," because her Son is King.  In other words, this title, like the title Mother of God, is really a statement about Christ.

This is correct.  By calling her Queen (i.e. Queen mother) we acknowledge she is mother of the King.  To deny her position is to deny His position.  We would have to lapse into Nestorianism to do so. 
Logged
Tags: Theotokos Septuagint incense Queen of Heaven 
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.138 seconds with 71 queries.