Author Topic: Pope says he's ashamed...  (Read 5826 times)

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Offline Myrrh23

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Pope says he's ashamed...
« on: April 16, 2008, 01:56:47 PM »
Hey Guys!

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nation/bal-popeplane0415,0,1901686.story

I'd like to know what Ratzinger was doing at the time to stop these pedophile priests as the Bishops were moving these freaks from parish to parish. Anybody know?
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Offline scamandrius

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Re: Pope says he's ashamed...
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2008, 02:07:27 PM »
I think Cardinal Ratzinger was still prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and as such was concerned with theological matters, not with pastoral matters, which the pedophile problem certainly falls under.  Of course, there is a lot of speculation as to how concerned the upper echelon of the RC hierarchy was with this issue and I'm fairly certain that the then Ratzinger would have known probably knew what JP II knew, but was he in a position to stop it?  Probably not.
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Offline Veniamin

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Re: Pope says he's ashamed...
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2008, 02:09:15 PM »
Hey Guys!

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nation/bal-popeplane0415,0,1901686.story

I'd like to know what Ratzinger was doing at the time to stop these pedophile priests as the Bishops were moving these freaks from parish to parish. Anybody know?

Yes, he was assigned to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, in Rome, and had absolutely nothing to do with (nor oversight over) the bishops involved.
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Offline Myrrh23

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Re: Pope says he's ashamed...
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2008, 02:51:28 PM »
Yet I've heard Ratzinger was practically John Paul II's right-hand man....

Quote
but was he in a position to stop it?  Probably not.

Since when does a Christian have to be told "it's your business" to get himself involved in devastating sin?
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Offline Veniamin

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Re: Pope says he's ashamed...
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2008, 02:54:22 PM »
Yet I've heard Ratzinger was practically John Paul II's right-hand man....

Since when does a Christian have to be told "it's your business" to get himself involved in devastating sin?

Without any authority over those involved, what would he have done, pray tell?
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Offline Papist

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Re: Pope says he's ashamed...
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2008, 03:21:28 PM »
Yes, he was assigned to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, in Rome, and had absolutely nothing to do with (nor oversight over) the bishops involved.
But don't you think that, if he knew anything about it, he should have spoken up? I mean, I am not sure if he did. but if he did...
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Myrrh23

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Re: Pope says he's ashamed...
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2008, 03:22:10 PM »
Quote
Without any authority over those involved, what would he have done, pray tell?

I dunno..talk to the Pope? Talk to the Bishops? As Christians, when our faith is in trouble, why does the house have to be divided in hierarchy? I'm not saying Ratzinger could have done a pig-headed thing like Luther, but he should have still done something, if he was just sitting on his thumbs...
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Offline Schultz

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Re: Pope says he's ashamed...
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2008, 03:36:15 PM »
There's alot of "ifs" being thrown around here, all of it quite a cause for scandal.  There's a difference between valid criticism of a system and especially of people who we know for sure turned a blind eye (e.g. Cardinal Law) and casting aspersions on people because of their position in a global bureaucracy.  There is no proof that then Cardinal Ratzinger knew the extent of the cover up in the United States and even if he knew something, none of us can say for sure he did nothing.



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Offline Schultz

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Re: Pope says he's ashamed...
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2008, 03:38:08 PM »
I dunno..talk to the Pope? Talk to the Bishops? As Christians, when our faith is in trouble, why does the house have to be divided in hierarchy? I'm not saying Ratzinger could have done a pig-headed thing like Luther, but he should have still done something, if he was just sitting on his thumbs...

What, pray tell, have you done for the victims of clerical abuse?  Or do you think pointing fingers allows you to show that you're not sitting on your thumbs?
« Last Edit: April 16, 2008, 03:45:21 PM by Schultz »
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Offline Papist

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Re: Pope says he's ashamed...
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2008, 03:39:39 PM »
What, pray tell, have you done for the victims of clerical abuse?  Or do you pointing fingers allows you to show that you're not sitting on your thumbs?
Wow shultz. I have to say. Good point.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Schultz

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Re: Pope says he's ashamed...
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2008, 03:45:45 PM »
Wow shultz. I have to say. Good point.

Thank you.  It must be if you agree with it ;)
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Offline lutheraninquirer

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Re: Pope says he's ashamed...
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2008, 07:16:14 PM »
I I'm not saying Ratzinger could have done a pig-headed thing like Luther, but he should have still done something

I think Luther would take that as a complement.

Offline Myrrh23

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Re: Pope says he's ashamed...
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2008, 08:31:40 PM »
Quote
What, pray tell, have you done for the victims of clerical abuse?  Or do you think pointing fingers allows you to show that you're not sitting on your thumbs?

I've prayed for the victims and written letters, or are you expecting a environmental-hippie-radical kind of approach?  ;D
And no, this is not me raging against the Catholic Church. My point is, at the time some of these abuses were occurring, Ratzinger was a man in Rome with much power and influence. In fact, wasn't he often referred to as the Pope's Doberman? I'm just saying, Schultz, that if Ratzinger had much influence on the Pope then and is so ashamed of how damaging the priest abuse has become, what did he do about it? I'm not accusing him of being a pile of cockroach dung or anything, but I've read the apologies of several irresponsible Bishops who helped move these priests from parish to parish. Want to know one common thing among them? "I'm sorry for any pain I might have caused."

Maybe I should go the extra mile and purchase this: ****
 ;) ;D

Btw, Schultz, I very much look up to your opinions and spiritual lessons on here, so...don't think i just complain and never do anything...


EDIT:  Link deleted...  Clergy sex abuse is not a laughing matter, particularly during this season of the Great Fast.  -PeterTheAleut
« Last Edit: April 17, 2008, 12:24:44 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline GiC

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Re: Pope says he's ashamed...
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2008, 08:37:35 PM »
Maybe I should go the extra mile and purchase this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpuYoK6wvgY
 ;) ;D

LMAO...now THAT was funny. ;)
« Last Edit: April 17, 2008, 09:13:47 AM by ozgeorge »

Offline Myrrh23

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Re: Pope says he's ashamed...
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2008, 08:48:43 PM »
Quote
LMAO...now THAT was funny. Wink

LOL, I was wondering when you were going to bite this apple because the video had the word 'atheist' in it...no offense, Greeki! ;) :-*
« Last Edit: April 16, 2008, 08:49:24 PM by Myrrh23 »
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Pope says he's ashamed...
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2008, 11:21:21 PM »
Maybe I should go the extra mile and purchase this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpuYoK6wvgY
 ;) ;D
Seriously, that was one of the most offensive videos I've ever seen. :P
« Last Edit: April 17, 2008, 09:13:21 AM by ozgeorge »
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Offline GiC

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Re: Pope says he's ashamed...
« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2008, 11:29:49 PM »
Seriously, that was one of the most offensive videos I've ever seen. :P

Do I need to bring my Mae West quote out again? ;)

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Pope says he's ashamed...
« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2008, 01:11:11 AM »
What's so offensive about a prayer rope?
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Pope says he's ashamed...
« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2008, 01:30:39 AM »
My point is, at the time some of these abuses were occurring, Ratzinger was a man in Rome with much power and influence. In fact, wasn't he often referred to as the Pope's Doberman? I'm just saying, Schultz, that if Ratzinger had much influence on the Pope then and is so ashamed of how damaging the priest abuse has become, what did he do about it?

Back to Schultz's advice:
There's alot of "ifs" being thrown around here, all of it quite a cause for scandal.  There's a difference between valid criticism of a system and especially of people who we know for sure turned a blind eye (e.g. Cardinal Law) and casting aspersions on people because of their position in a global bureaucracy.  There is no proof that then Cardinal Ratzinger knew the extent of the cover up in the United States and even if he knew something, none of us can say for sure he did nothing.
Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger was indeed Pope John Paul's right-hand man in regards to enforcement of Catholic dogma, but this doesn't mean that he had any real authority outside of the scope of this work.  Would his position have allowed him to do something, anything about criminal breakdowns in clerical morality?  If Cardinal Ratzinger could do something, how can we say he didn't?  Did his work for the Pope and his limited contact with the U.S. even allow him the chance to learn of the scope of the priest abuse crisis in the U.S.A.?

You seem to be making the anachronistic conclusion that his shame now should have guided his actions 5-10 years ago.  Can we expect him to do something 10 years ago based on his feelings now?  Maybe he has become aware of the breadth and depth of the clergy sex abuse scandals only since becoming Pope.  Would you blame him for not knowing of the crisis if nobody ever brought it to his attention?
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Pope says he's ashamed...
« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2008, 01:47:00 AM »
What's so offensive about a prayer rope?
LOL!  Good one, George. :laugh:
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Offline Thomas

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Re: Pope says he's ashamed...
« Reply #20 on: April 17, 2008, 08:36:20 AM »
Well  Now he is  the Roman pontif and he appears to be doing something about it.  Lets stop living in the past and recognize him for what he has openly committed himself---no more abusive priests.  That is a very good start.  We should only hope that Bishop Nickolai of Alaska has the courage to do so, the pedifile Reader he recently ordained is back in jail accoring to another OCA website.  Now that we (Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Christians ) are appropriately addressing the issues of Clergy sexual abuseand establishing practices that will eventual develop into canon law, our hierarchs should be held accountable for their actions by the Church at large. Let us forgive those who repent of their past actions and get on with evangelizing the world as Our Lord has told us to do. MHO.

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Offline lubeltri

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Re: Pope says he's ashamed...
« Reply #21 on: April 17, 2008, 09:31:21 AM »
Well  Now he is  the Roman pontif and he appears to be doing something about it.  Lets stop living in the past and recognize him for what he has openly committed himself---no more abusive priests.  That is a very good start.  We should only hope that Bishop Nickolai of Alaska has the courage to do so, the pedifile Reader he recently ordained is back in jail accoring to another OCA website.  Now that we (Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Christians ) are appropriately addressing the issues of Clergy sexual abuseand establishing practices that will eventual develop into canon law, our hierarchs should be held accountable for their actions by the Church at large. Let us forgive those who repent of their past actions and get on with evangelizing the world as Our Lord has told us to do. MHO.

Hear, hear!

Offline Myrrh23

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Re: Pope says he's ashamed...
« Reply #22 on: April 17, 2008, 12:30:14 PM »
Well, if the Pope also doesn't give a steel-toed boot to the Bishops that helped cover the abuse up and stalled law enforcement investigations, then it seems his apologies aren't worth much, because it seems if the pope himself doesn't change things even on these higher levels, it will only perpetuate the same system that enabled these abusive priests and created the massive mess of abuse. I'll wait and see before I judge, though..so...don't snap. :-*
« Last Edit: April 17, 2008, 12:34:39 PM by Myrrh23 »
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Offline ytterbiumanalyst

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Re: Pope says he's ashamed...
« Reply #23 on: April 17, 2008, 12:43:08 PM »
^ More "ifs," no substance.

Pope Benedict is a good man, from what I can tell, and despite all the silliness in the Catholic Church these days (I wouldn't be surprised to hear "Just As I Am" at the crusade at Nationals Stadium today), he really does seem sincere about getting the Catholic Church back to its Orthodox roots. The Pope inherited this problem from his predecessor, so it's unlikely that we'll find him at fault for this. Furthermore, it's a serious problem, and problems of this magnitude aren't solved overnight. I have all confidence that if we give him time, he'll do the right thing.
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Offline scamandrius

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Re: Pope says he's ashamed...
« Reply #24 on: April 17, 2008, 01:32:22 PM »
Well, if the Pope also doesn't give a steel-toed boot to the Bishops that helped cover the abuse up and stalled law enforcement investigations, then it seems his apologies aren't worth much, because it seems if the pope himself doesn't change things even on these higher levels, it will only perpetuate the same system that enabled these abusive priests and created the massive mess of abuse. I'll wait and see before I judge, though..so...don't snap. :-*

With all due respect, Myrrh, judging is precisely what you have been doing.  As Y said, this was an inherited problem from the days of JP II.  At the same time, this priest-abuse scandal is an American problem and reflects poorly on the American hierarchy, the seminaries and the lack of safeguards to prevent such people from becoming priests.  As much as we want, and it is easy for us Orthodox, to  say that the Pope is a dictator under whom nothing is unknown, such is hardly the case.  I'm not saying there has been accountability for clearly there hasn't been.  But a situation like this is going to take a long time to solve and I applaud the Pope for saying that the mission of God does not require more priests but perhaps a smaller number of them who are more faithful.  I'm sure that such comments do not sit well with the RCs in this country clamoring for women's ordination and clerical celibacy.
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Offline ytterbiumanalyst

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Re: Pope says he's ashamed...
« Reply #25 on: April 17, 2008, 02:37:38 PM »
But a situation like this is going to take a long time to solve and I applaud the Pope for saying that the mission of God does not require more priests but perhaps a smaller number of them who are more faithful.  I'm sure that such comments do not sit well with the RCs in this country clamoring for women's ordination and clerical celibacy.
Absolutely. The mega-church philosophy says that more is better. Yet Orthodoxy says that what matters is not having more people but more faith. The Pope's words here are definitely in line with Orthodoxy.
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Offline Papist

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Re: Pope says he's ashamed...
« Reply #26 on: April 17, 2008, 03:13:06 PM »
I think His Holiness mentioned a smaller more purified church at some point.
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Offline TinaG

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Re: Pope says he's ashamed...
« Reply #27 on: April 17, 2008, 03:55:06 PM »
it's a serious problem, and problems of this magnitude aren't solved overnight. I have all confidence that if we give him time, he'll do the right thing.

It's unfortunate he isn't a few years younger.  Pope Benedict appears to be vigorous and fit, but this is a job that ages you.  I hope he has many productive years ahead of him to bring substantive change to the RC church.
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Offline username!

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Re: Pope says he's ashamed...
« Reply #28 on: April 21, 2008, 12:25:53 AM »
Hey Guys!

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nation/bal-popeplane0415,0,1901686.story

I'd like to know what Ratzinger was doing at the time to stop these pedophile priests as the Bishops were moving these freaks from parish to parish. Anybody know?

Many folks here would probably agree that if you are referring to Pope Benedict XVI while he was a Cardinal, the proper way to write his name would be Joesph Cardinal Ratzinger.  It is seemingly disrespectful to refer to the man a good number of people in the world regard as a man to look up to, Roman Catholic or not, just to write the man's last name when speaking about him.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2008, 12:28:06 AM by username! »

Offline Simayan

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Re: Pope says he's ashamed...
« Reply #29 on: April 21, 2008, 12:57:45 PM »
Did anyone else notice he spoke in the 'royal we' during that speech?
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Re: Pope says he's ashamed...
« Reply #30 on: April 21, 2008, 05:57:13 PM »
Did anyone else notice he spoke in the 'royal we' during that speech?

We did not pick up on that during the speech. However while we were listening to the homily at Yankee Stadium, we noticed a bit of the Royal we.
We will have to read the homily and find the part we speak about.
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Offline ytterbiumanalyst

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Re: Pope says he's ashamed...
« Reply #31 on: April 21, 2008, 10:01:40 PM »
^ The homily at Yankee Stadium? That was an awesome speech.
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Re: Pope says he's ashamed...
« Reply #32 on: April 22, 2008, 02:10:08 PM »
^ The homily at Yankee Stadium? That was an awesome speech.

That's what Bush said.
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Offline ytterbiumanalyst

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Re: Pope says he's ashamed...
« Reply #33 on: April 22, 2008, 03:14:50 PM »
That's what Bush said.
^ Right. That's why I wrote it here.
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Offline Simayan

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Re: Pope says he's ashamed...
« Reply #34 on: April 24, 2008, 12:14:10 PM »
I still think it's hilarious that they gave out communion to everyone in 15 minutes. I can just imagine if it was an Orthodox service - we'd be there for weeks!
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Offline lubeltri

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Re: Pope says he's ashamed...
« Reply #35 on: April 24, 2008, 01:12:00 PM »
I still think it's hilarious that they gave out communion to everyone in 15 minutes. I can just imagine if it was an Orthodox service - we'd be there for weeks!

Well, there were hundreds and hundreds of priests standing by all across the stadium, each one accompanied by at least one NY police officer. But still, I was impressed! I expected total chaos. I actually did not have that much time to kneel and pray after receiving.