Author Topic: Those Who Accept The Fullness of Christ  (Read 4094 times)

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Offline theinformer

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Those Who Accept The Fullness of Christ
« on: June 12, 2008, 02:59:42 AM »
This topic has been split off from this thread: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,15456.0.html



There are some heterodox here, do you-who dont accept the fullness of christ- or any orthodox know who the confession process in the west occurs?.


This looks like flaming.  A question addressed to those "who dont accept the fullness of Christ" makes some inflammatory presumptions.  In addition, this question has nothing to do with the topic of discussion.  -PtA
« Last Edit: June 13, 2008, 08:03:30 PM by ozgeorge »

Offline Ebor

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Those Who Accept The Fullness of Christ
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2008, 11:22:55 AM »
I'm not clear as to what "don't accept the fullness of Christ" means, frankly. But St. Mary the Virgin was a real human being born of human parents and I've never comprehended the IC.

Ebor

(spelling correction)
« Last Edit: June 13, 2008, 05:08:25 PM by Ebor »
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Offline SolEX01

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Those Who Accept The Fullness of Christ
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2008, 11:53:04 AM »
do you-who dont accept the fullness of christ- or any orthodox know who the confession process in the west occurs?.

Never mind.

Edited post to "take" wood off the fire, so to speak   :)
« Last Edit: June 13, 2008, 05:11:55 PM by SolEX01 »

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Those Who Accept The Fullness of Christ
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2008, 04:31:50 PM »
^ No need to put more wood on the flame. ;)
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Offline theinformer

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Those Who Accept The Fullness of Christ
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2008, 07:38:52 PM »
LOL inflammatory presumptions, well im only speaking the truth.There are those who dont reject christ, however, they dont accept his fullness.

Offline ozgeorge

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Those Who Accept The Fullness of Christ
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2008, 07:53:50 PM »
LOL inflammatory presumptions, well im only speaking the truth.There are those who dont reject christ, however, they dont accept his fullness.
Such as whom on this forum?
You must have some idea because you addressed a question to them.
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Offline theinformer

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Re: Those Who Accept The Fullness of Christ
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2008, 09:22:56 PM »
Not necessarily on this forum but also in a broad sense.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Those Who Accept The Fullness of Christ
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2008, 11:18:51 PM »
But the way you've worded the question, any answer given (without an explicit disclaimer) is a tacit admission that the one posting the answer does not accept the fullness of Christ.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2008, 11:20:59 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Riddikulus

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Re: Those Who Accept The Fullness of Christ
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2008, 11:33:18 PM »
theinformer,

As a matter of interest, how long have you been Orthodox?
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Offline theinformer

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Re: Those Who Accept The Fullness of Christ
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2008, 01:06:13 AM »
But the way you've worded the question, any answer given (without an explicit disclaimer) is a tacit admission that the one posting the answer does not accept the fullness of Christ.
Firstly i havn't worded it, and its obvious who those are that dont, its not something implicit.

Offline theinformer

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Re: Those Who Accept The Fullness of Christ
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2008, 01:12:59 AM »
theinformer,

As a matter of interest, how long have you been Orthodox?
How about you make an assumption before i divulge.

Offline Riddikulus

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Re: Those Who Accept The Fullness of Christ
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2008, 02:40:06 AM »
??? I try not to assume as to do so can have very unpleasant ramifications.
I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)

Offline theinformer

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Re: Those Who Accept The Fullness of Christ
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2008, 02:53:57 AM »
??? I try not to assume as to do so can have very unpleasant ramifications.
Im sure the repercussions are the opposite- harry potter man. Do you know what watching harry potter could potentially entail?.

Offline prodromas

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Re: Those Who Accept The Fullness of Christ
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2008, 03:16:54 AM »
Im sure the repercussions are the opposite- harry potter man. Do you know what watching harry potter could potentially entail?.

Yes that love for one another and doing anything to save another are honorable traits. Because if you say doing witchcraft I don't believe you have either read the books or seen the movie or if you had completely misunderstood them.
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Offline Riddikulus

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Re: Those Who Accept The Fullness of Christ
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2008, 04:24:43 AM »
Im sure the repercussions are the opposite- harry potter man. Do you know what watching harry potter could potentially entail?.

 :laugh:
I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)

Offline Riddikulus

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Re: Those Who Accept The Fullness of Christ
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2008, 04:26:19 AM »
Yes that love for one another and doing anything to save another are honorable traits. Because if you say doing witchcraft I don't believe you have either read the books or seen the movie or if you had completely misunderstood them.

Well said, prodromas. :)
I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)

Offline theinformer

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Re: Those Who Accept The Fullness of Christ
« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2008, 04:28:59 AM »
Misunderstand the satanic and magical nature of the movie?, or should i endorse it with open arms like satan does?

Offline Riddikulus

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Re: Those Who Accept The Fullness of Christ
« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2008, 04:34:57 AM »
Misunderstand the satanic and magical nature of the movie?, or should i endorse it with open arms like satan does?

Are you taking your own thread off topic to avoid my question as to how long you have been Orthodox? Because if you are, please forget I asked. I hate to see anyone get so aggrevated over a simple question.
I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)

Offline Ebor

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Re: Those Who Accept The Fullness of Christ
« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2008, 08:22:18 AM »
Firstly i havn't worded it, and its obvious who those are that dont, its not something implicit.

If it were "obvious" then likely people wouldn't be asking what you mean by the phrase.  Would you please explain what it means to you?  Thank you in advance.

Ebor
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Online Keble

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Re: Those Who Accept The Fullness of Christ
« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2008, 08:54:31 AM »
As Arch-Protestant I'd respond to this, except it isn't close enough to being to coherent even to denounce.

Offline ytterbiumanalyst

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Re: Those Who Accept The Fullness of Christ
« Reply #20 on: June 14, 2008, 09:24:24 AM »
Misunderstand the satanic and magical nature of the movie?, or should i endorse it with open arms like satan does?
ROFLMAO! :laugh:
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Those Who Accept The Fullness of Christ
« Reply #21 on: June 14, 2008, 01:24:01 PM »
Firstly i havn't worded it, ...
EVERYTHING you (or anyone else) post is worded, NO EXCEPTIONS!  Now THAT I think would be obvious.

Quote
and its obvious who those are that dont, its not something implicit.
And this isn't the problem.  The problem is that you've loaded your question with the presumption that those who answer are in fact those who don't accept the fullness of Christ.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2008, 02:14:26 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Those Who Accept The Fullness of Christ
« Reply #22 on: June 14, 2008, 01:50:15 PM »
From:  http://www.fallacyfiles.org/loadques.html

LOADED QUESTION

Alias:

    * Complex Question
    * Many Questions
    * Plurium Interrogationum
      Translation: "many questions", Latin


Quote…

    "How am I to get in?" asked Alice again, in a louder tone.

    "Are you to get in at all?" said the Footman, "That's the first question, you know."

…Unquote

Source: Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland, Ch. 6.


Form:

A question with a false, disputed, or question-begging presupposition.


Example:

    Why should merely cracking down on terrorism help to stop it, when that method hasn't worked in any other country? Why are we so hated in the Muslim world? What did our government do there to bring this horror home to all those innocent Americans? And why don't we learn anything, from our free press, about the gross ineptitude of our state agencies? about what's really happening in Afghanistan? about the pertinence of Central Asia's huge reserves of oil and natural gas? about the links between the Bush and the bin Laden families?

Source: Mark Crispin Miller, "Brain Drain", Context, No. 9

Analysis

Exposition:

A "loaded question", like a loaded gun, is a dangerous thing. A loaded question is a question with a false or questionable presupposition, and it is "loaded" with that presumption. The question "Have you stopped beating your wife?" presupposes that you have beaten your wife prior to its asking, as well as that you have a wife. If you are unmarried, or have never beaten your wife, then the question is loaded.

Since this example is a yes/no question, there are only the following two direct answers:

   1. "Yes, I have stopped beating my wife", which entails "I was beating my wife."
   2. "No, I haven't stopped beating my wife", which entails "I am still beating my wife."

Thus, either direct answer entails that you have beaten your wife, which is, therefore, a presupposition of the question. So, a loaded question is one which you cannot answer directly without implying a falsehood or a statement that you deny. For this reason, the proper response to such a question is not to answer it directly, but to either refuse to answer or to reject the question.

Some systems of parliamentary debate provide for "dividing the question", that is, splitting a complex question up into two or more simple questions. Such a move can be used to split the example as follows:

   1. "Have you ever beaten your wife?"
   2. "If so, are you still doing so?"

In this way, 1 can be answered directly by "no", and then the conditional question 2 does not arise.


Exposure:

Since a question is not an argument, simply asking a loaded question is not a fallacious argument. Rather, loaded questions are typically used to trick someone into implying something they did not intend. For instance, salespeople learn to ask such loaded questions as: "Will that be cash or charge?" This question gives only two alternatives, thus presuming that the potential buyer has already decided to make a purchase, which is similar to the Black-or-White Fallacy. If the potential buyer answers the question directly, he may suddenly find himself an actual buyer.


Resources:

    * Julian Baggini, "The Fallacy of the Complex Question", Bad Moves
    * David Hackett Fischer, Historians' Fallacies: Toward a Logic of Historical Thought (Harper & Row, 1970), pp. 8-9.
    * Douglas Walton, "The Fallacy of Many Questions: On the Notions of Complexity, Loadedness and Unfair Entrapment in Interrogative Theory" (PDF). This paper is not as weighty as its title, and it contains some nice examples and interesting history of the fallacy.


Analysis of the Example:

This is a series of loaded questions and it illustrates one of the common uses of the loaded question as a rhetorical device, namely, innuendo. The questions come at the end of the article, and presuppose the following controversial claims:

    * The American government did something to bring about the terrorist attacks.
    * The public doesn't learn anything from the press about that government's mistakes.
    * The public is not learning about what's happening in Afghanistan.
    * Central Asia's oil reserves are somehow pertinent.
    * There are some unspecified links between the Bush and bin Laden families.

No evidence is given in the article for any of these claims. Loaded questions are used in this way to slip claims into rhetoric without the burden of proving them, or the necessity of taking responsibility for unproven assertions.
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