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Offline Irenaeus07

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What was the Original Liturgy that the first Christians used???  Do we still have it???

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Re: What was the Original Liturgy that the first Christian used???
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2008, 12:09:20 AM »
What was the Original Liturgy that the first Christians used???  Do we still have it???
I don't know, but I believe the Liturgy of St. James is attributed to James, the brother of the Lord and first bishop of Jerusalem.  We must still have his liturgy, since it is prescribed for his feast day (January 4) in some churches.
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Offline Basil 320

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Re: What was the Original Liturgy that the first Christian used???
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2008, 12:11:30 AM »
I would defer to a theologian, but I think it's the Liturgy of St. James, attributed to St. James the Brother of the Lord, first bishop of Jerusalem.  Of course like the other liturgies, it evolved after the time of St. James.  I've read that it is some -4- hours in length, that's why St. Basil the Great shortened it and St. John Chrysostom shortened St. Basil's liturgy further.  I also recall that it can be celebrated on the Feast Day of St. James (Iakovos), especially in Jerusalem.
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Offline Pravoslavbob

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Re: What was the Original Liturgy that the first Christian used???
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2008, 12:12:51 AM »
We really don't have the answer to this question.  The reason is because Christians didn't write down liturgies at first, because everything was transmitted orally, just like the Scriptures.  The first extant liturgies available are those of the Didache, of which the liturgical part could possibly have been written as early as 48 AD according to Enrico Mazza, though others say that it was 110 or even later.  The Apostolic Tradition of Hippolytus has a liturgy dating probably from 215-25. 

It's true that tradition says that the Liturgy of St. James is the oldest that the Church has, passed to St. James himself by our Lord.  However, it would certainly not be the texts as they now exist, which are heavily "Byzantinized" and influenced by other liturgical streams of thought too.

AFAIK, all evidence points to an existence of innumerable liturgical "families" and "sub-families" at first, which slowly influenced one another until major families and groups solidified and eventually became dominant.  But there were still a whole lot of them in the early Church; a lot more diversity than what we have today.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2008, 12:33:53 AM by Pravoslavbob »
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Offline Irenaeus07

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Re: What was the Original Liturgy that the first Christian used???
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2008, 10:40:08 AM »
Thanks. For all your input.

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Offline Fr. George

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Re: What was the Original Liturgy that the first Christian used???
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2008, 01:12:46 PM »
AFAIK, all evidence points to an existence of innumerable liturgical "families" and "sub-families" at first, which slowly influenced one another until major families and groups solidified and eventually became dominant.  But there were still a whole lot of them in the early Church; a lot more diversity than what we have today. 

Bingo.
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Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.

Offline alexp4uni

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Re: What was the Original Liturgy that the first Christian used???
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2008, 02:32:44 PM »
AFAIK, all evidence points to an existence of innumerable liturgical "families" and "sub-families" at first, which slowly influenced one another until major families and groups solidified and eventually became dominant.  But there were still a whole lot of them in the early Church; a lot more diversity than what we have today.

And thats saying something when it comes to recovering


Liturgy of St. James
Liturgy of St. Cyril of Alexandria (St. Mark)
Liturgy of St. Basil (both Coptic and Greek)
Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom
Liturgy of St. Gregory of Nyssa (Coptic)
Pre-Sanctified Lit.
the 2 and 1/2 hour Anaphora of St. John Chrysostom in the Syriac Church (not the liturgy)

Irenaeus07 if your still curious Amazon has a $50 Oxford Encyclopedia that I personally cherish due to the width of the Christian church worship across the board. Everyone from the Anabaptists to the opposition from the Puritans all the way back to the Abyssinian churches in Africa. It is a basic web starting from its earliest to it modern changes that Protestant Evangelicals have been using in America.

http://www.amazon.com/Oxford-History-Christian-Worship/dp/0195138864

The Oxford History Of Christian Worship : $55.95.   
ISBN: 0195138864
ISBN: 9780195138863
« Last Edit: April 13, 2008, 03:47:11 PM by alexp4uni »

Offline Didymus

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Re: What was the Original Liturgy that the first Christian used???
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2008, 02:59:48 PM »
What was the Original Liturgy that the first Christians used???  Do we still have it???

The Liturgy of St. James.

Here's a link to an Indian Orthodox site with a little story about it:

http://www.icon.org.in/church_liturgy.icon
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Offline Didymus

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Re: What was the Original Liturgy that the first Christian used???
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2008, 03:02:51 PM »
... if your still curious Amazon has a $50 Oxford Encyclopedia that I personally cherish due to the width of the Christian church worship across the board. Everyone from the Anabaptists to the opposition from the Puritans all the way back to the Abyssinian churches in Africa. It is a basic web starting from its earliest to it modern changes that Protestant Evangelicals have been using in America.

Could you please send ISBN of this book to me in a PM?
Otherwise post it please but I've been busy and may miss it if you don't PM please.

Thanks mate and pray for me please.
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Offline scamandrius

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Re: What was the Original Liturgy that the first Christian used???
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2008, 05:09:14 PM »
I don't know, but I believe the Liturgy of St. James is attributed to James, the brother of the Lord and first bishop of Jerusalem.  We must still have his liturgy, since it is prescribed for his feast day (January 4) in some churches.

PTA,

I'm no expert but I believe that the only Church that still uses the Liturgy of St. James, the Brother of our Lord, is the Jersualem Church and only on October 23 (old calendar, of course), which is his feast day. 
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Offline Fr. George

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Re: What was the Original Liturgy that the first Christian used???
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2008, 06:45:16 PM »
PTA,

I'm no expert but I believe that the only Church that still uses the Liturgy of St. James, the Brother of our Lord, is the Jersualem Church and only on October 23 (old calendar, of course), which is his feast day. 

There are a number of parishes of the Greek Archdiocese that use the Liturgy of St. James on his feastday, including the seminary.
"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"
Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.

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Re: What was the Original Liturgy that the first Christian used???
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2008, 07:24:22 PM »
PTA,

I'm no expert but I believe that the only Church that still uses the Liturgy of St. James, the Brother of our Lord, is the Jersualem Church and only on October 23 (old calendar, of course), which is his feast day. 
Well, maybe I had the date wrong. :-[
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Offline Orthodox11

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Re: What was the Original Liturgy that the first Christian used???
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2008, 07:38:15 PM »
I'm no expert but I believe that the only Church that still uses the Liturgy of St. James, the Brother of our Lord, is the Jersualem Church and only on October 23 (old calendar, of course), which is his feast day. 

I know of a number of churches in the UK, both Greek and Russian, that use the liturgy of St. Jacob, the brother of the Lord. It is celebrated twice a year, the first Sunday after Christmas being the second time.

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Re: What was the Original Liturgy that the first Christian used???
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2008, 08:24:19 PM »
I know of a number of churches in the UK, both Greek and Russian, that use the liturgy of St. Jacob, the brother of the Lord. It is celebrated twice a year, the first Sunday after Christmas being the second time.

You mean St. James right?
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Re: What was the Original Liturgy that the first Christian used???
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2008, 09:08:34 PM »
You mean St. James right? 

In Greek the name is literally "Jacob."  The only credible theory that I've heard is that Iakovos was made "James" by none other than King James himself;  otherwise, James is normally "Demetri" (which I think was just to find a match).  Otherwise, if James = Iakovos, then Jacob has no name in Greek, which is impossible.

So, yes, nowadays St. Iakovos the brother of our Lord is "St. James," but the name in English which actually fits the Saint's title in Greek is Jacob.
"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"
Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.

Offline prodromas

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Re: What was the Original Liturgy that the first Christian used???
« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2008, 09:19:02 PM »
In Greek the name is literally "Jacob."  The only credible theory that I've heard is that Iakovos was made "James" by none other than King James himself;  otherwise, James is normally "Demetri" (which I think was just to find a match).  Otherwise, if James = Iakovos, then Jacob has no name in Greek, which is impossible.

So, yes, nowadays St. Iakovos the brother of our Lord is "St. James," but the name in English which actually fits the Saint's title in Greek is Jacob.

That is really awesome I never knew that. Forgive me for my ignorance Orthodox11 and cleveland.
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Offline Marc Hanna

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Re: What was the Original Liturgy that the first Christian used???
« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2008, 09:25:35 PM »
My church prays the Liturgy of St Cyril during lent.  This is the Coptic translation of the Liturgy of St Mark (which was noted above) which could be dated as early as 40 - 50 AD.

Offline Marc Hanna

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Re: What was the Original Liturgy that the first Christian used???
« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2008, 09:28:56 PM »
In Greek the name is literally "Jacob."  The only credible theory that I've heard is that Iakovos was made "James" by none other than King James himself;  otherwise, James is normally "Demetri" (which I think was just to find a match).  Otherwise, if James = Iakovos, then Jacob has no name in Greek, which is impossible.

So, yes, nowadays St. Iakovos the brother of our Lord is "St. James," but the name in English which actually fits the Saint's title in Greek is Jacob.

Jesus and Joshua are the same in Greek as well; Ιησους.

Offline prodromas

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Re: What was the Original Liturgy that the first Christian used???
« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2008, 09:34:23 PM »
Jesus and Joshua are the same in Greek as well; Ιησους.

Thats because the English word Jesus is the anglicized version of Ιησους in Greek and Joshua is the anglicized version of Eshua from Hebrew. Yes Jesus' name was actually Joshua.
The sins I don't commit are largely due to the weakness of my limbs.

1915-1923 Հայոց Ցեղասպանութիւն ,never again,
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Offline Irenaeus07

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Re: What was the Original Liturgy that the first Christian used???
« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2008, 09:49:37 PM »
And thats saying something when it comes to recovering


Liturgy of St. James
Liturgy of St. Cyril of Alexandria (St. Mark)
Liturgy of St. Basil (both Coptic and Greek)
Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom
Liturgy of St. Gregory of Nyssa (Coptic)
Pre-Sanctified Lit.
the 2 and 1/2 hour Anaphora of St. John Chrysostom in the Syriac Church (not the liturgy)

Irenaeus07 if your still curious Amazon has a $50 Oxford Encyclopedia that I personally cherish due to the width of the Christian church worship across the board. Everyone from the Anabaptists to the opposition from the Puritans all the way back to the Abyssinian churches in Africa. It is a basic web starting from its earliest to it modern changes that Protestant Evangelicals have been using in America.

http://www.amazon.com/Oxford-History-Christian-Worship/dp/0195138864

The Oxford History Of Christian Worship : $55.95.   
ISBN: 0195138864
ISBN: 9780195138863

Awesome, thanks a million.  I will have to check that book out.  Good price as well.  Hmm, quick question, I have you read, The Great High Priest by Margaret Barker


http://www.amazon.com/Great-High-Priest-Christian-Liturgy/dp/0567089428/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1208137621&sr=8-1

According to the reviews on amazon, it appears to bridge the gap between the Jewish and Early Christian form of worship, and how it is very similar.


Offline alexp4uni

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Re: What was the Original Liturgy that the first Christian used???
« Reply #21 on: April 14, 2008, 12:13:47 AM »
Awesome, thanks a million.  I will have to check that book out.  Good price as well.  Hmm, quick question,  have you read, The Great High Priest by Margaret Barker?


http://www.amazon.com/Great-High-Priest-Christian-Liturgy/dp/0567089428/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1208137621&sr=8-1

Is this is the same book Thatcher wrote of the Jerusalem Roots of Jewish Liturgy with a black laminated cover? If so I glimpsed at it and have not been persuaded to buy it. I only ask for interloans at my nearest library because I dare not pay for a Christian apologetic and research based historical Books without having read it. The authors I read should be credible and not just labeled Orthodox but even Catholic books that go in far more detail as far I remember. Also remember to do a search on Google Products do not pay over $25 for this and the Encyclopedia.

I technically have not read the second half of the Oxford Enyclopedia due to a mundane way Christian worship get described. But none the less the way the Greek Orthodoxy liturgy was treated shows a great contrast to the Tridentine Mass and even the African Pentecostals. He especially goes in great detail on Eastern Christian (Coptic, Greek). I recommend this one only because I have not heard of the other.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: What was the Original Liturgy that the first Christian used???
« Reply #22 on: April 14, 2008, 01:46:11 AM »
I always had the feeling that the Coptic Gregorian Liturgy was that of Nazienzen, not Nyssa.  No?
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Offline alexp4uni

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Re: What was the Original Liturgy that the first Christian used???
« Reply #23 on: April 14, 2008, 03:03:37 AM »
The Oxford does indeed say Nazianzus because I am mistakenly labelling the Bishop at Nyssa with the city near Cappadocia where he got influenced with this worship. He was being protective against Arian bishops during his throne at Constantinople. The Arians insisted creation had subsumed the Word stating that the Son was created by the Father to have creation especially restored to his being. However he had already practiced the Antiochian Liturgy with all of its Anaphora's and became much more strict in defining the Alexandrian theology. This addition to the original Alexandrian liturgy seems to suggest this was added to the Offering of the Lamb rather than making longer as a prayer of the Portion or (what is called an Appendix hymnal). This is similar to St. Basil's Fraction.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2008, 03:20:50 AM by alexp4uni »

Offline yBeayf

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Re: What was the Original Liturgy that the first Christian used???
« Reply #24 on: April 15, 2008, 03:10:15 PM »
Quote
In Greek the name is literally "Jacob."  The only credible theory that I've heard is that Iakovos was made "James" by none other than King James himself;  otherwise, James is normally "Demetri" (which I think was just to find a match).  Otherwise, if James = Iakovos, then Jacob has no name in Greek, which is impossible.

I've always read that it came from "Jacobus" -> "Jacomus" -> "James", with the shift from "b" to "m" a result of French influence. Note that in Middle English this would have been pronounced with two syllables, and that in Irish "James" is "Séamas" or "Séamus"; in Manx Gaelic it's "Jamys"; in Spanish it's "Jaime"; in Occitan it's "Jammes"; in Italian it's "Giacomo"; and in Catalan it's "Jaim". It's perfectly possible for both "James" and "Jacob" to correspond to Greek "Iakovos".
« Last Edit: April 15, 2008, 03:17:18 PM by yBeayf »

Offline minasoliman

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Re: What was the Original Liturgy that the first Christian used???
« Reply #25 on: April 15, 2008, 03:17:08 PM »
I've always read that it came from "Jacobus" -> "Jacomus" -> "James". Note that in Middle English this would have been pronounced with two syllables, and that in Irish "James" is "Séamas" or "Séamus" and in Manx Gaelic it's "Jamys". It's perfectly possible for both "James" and "Jacob" to correspond to Greek "Iakovos".

In Arabic, both James and Jacob means the same thing:  Ya'aqoob
« Last Edit: April 15, 2008, 03:17:31 PM by minasoliman »
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Offline Marc Hanna

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Re: What was the Original Liturgy that the first Christian used???
« Reply #26 on: April 15, 2008, 03:27:00 PM »
Gen 25:26  καὶ μετὰ τοῦτο ἐξῆλθεν ὁ ἀδελφὸς αὐτοῦ, καὶ ἡ χεὶρ αὐτοῦ ἐπειλημμένη τῆς πτέρνης Ησαυ· καὶ ἐκάλεσεν τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ Ιακωβ. Ισαακ δὲ ἦν ἐτῶν ἑξήκοντα, ὅτε ἔτεκεν αὐτοὺς Ρεβεκκα.

Jas 1:1 ιακωβος θεου και κυριου ιησου χριστου δουλος ταις δωδεκα φυλαις ταις εν τη διασπορα χαιρειν

There is a distinction from the LXX to the TR, but that might be because the name is uninflected in the LXX.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2008, 03:29:50 PM by Marc Hanna »

Offline Fr. George

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Re: What was the Original Liturgy that the first Christian used???
« Reply #27 on: April 15, 2008, 04:48:19 PM »
I've always read that it came from "Jacobus" -> "Jacomus" -> "James", with the shift from "b" to "m" a result of French influence. Note that in Middle English this would have been pronounced with two syllables, and that in Irish "James" is "Séamas" or "Séamus"; in Manx Gaelic it's "Jamys"; in Spanish it's "Jaime"; in Occitan it's "Jammes"; in Italian it's "Giacomo"; and in Catalan it's "Jaim". It's perfectly possible for both "James" and "Jacob" to correspond to Greek "Iakovos".

That's interesting.  Sort of along the same lines as the Jesus-Joshua thing, huh?  Thanks for the info.

Of course, it still leaves the open question of which one to use at which time?  In the case of "Jesus," it is only rendered in English for the LORD, and everyone else is Joshua.  But with James/Jacob, should that be the rule (i.e. OT/NT)?

There is a distinction from the LXX to the TR, but that might be because the name is uninflected in the LXX.

I think you're statement that I bolded above is the most plausible explanation.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2008, 04:50:00 PM by cleveland »
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Re: What was the Original Liturgy that the first Christian used???
« Reply #28 on: April 15, 2008, 05:33:59 PM »
I've always read that it came from "Jacobus" -> "Jacomus" -> "James", with the shift from "b" to "m" a result of French influence. Note that in Middle English this would have been pronounced with two syllables, and that in Irish "James" is "Séamas" or "Séamus"; in Manx Gaelic it's "Jamys"; in Spanish it's "Jaime"; in Occitan it's "Jammes"; in Italian it's "Giacomo"; and in Catalan it's "Jaim". It's perfectly possible for both "James" and "Jacob" to correspond to Greek "Iakovos".


Correct!

According to the Oxford English Dictionary:

Quote
James 
masc. proper name, name of two of Christ's disciples, late 12c. M.E. vernacular form of L.L. Jacomus (cf. O.Fr. James, Sp. Jaime, It. Giacomo), altered from L. Jacobus (see Jacob). The Welsh form was Iago, the Cornish [/i]Jago[/i].

B and M are easily interchanged in the history of Romance languages, although it seems to have made the shift prior to Old French becoming distinct from Latin.  The shift from the voiced "c" to a silent then nonexistent letter in Old French happened later.  It's also interesting that the spelling "James" appears in English long before the KJV.
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Offline Marc Hanna

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Re: What was the Original Liturgy that the first Christian used???
« Reply #29 on: April 15, 2008, 06:04:52 PM »


Of course, it still leaves the open question of which one to use at which time?  In the case of "Jesus," it is only rendered in English for the LORD,

In Ecclesiasticus Widom of Sirac in the LXX Apocrypha Ιησους is rendered as Jesus.  So, we might conclude that rendering choices are quite arbitrary to say the least.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2008, 06:06:35 PM by Marc Hanna »

Offline alexp4uni

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Re: What was the Original Liturgy that the first Christian used???
« Reply #30 on: December 05, 2009, 08:21:32 PM »
The Oxford does indeed say Nazianzus because I am mistakenly labelling the Bishop at Nyssa with the city near Cappadocia where he got influenced with this worship. He was being protective against Arian bishops during his throne at Constantinople. The Arians insisted creation had subsumed the Word stating that the Son was created by the Father to have creation especially restored to his being. However he had already practiced the Antiochian Liturgy with all of its Anaphora's and became much more strict in defining the Alexandrian theology. This addition to the original Alexandrian liturgy seems to suggest this was added to the Offering of the Lamb rather than making longer as a prayer of the Portion or (what is called an Appendix hymnal). This is similar to St. Basil's Fraction.


The Oxford does indeed say Nazianzus because I am mistakenly labelling the Bishop at Nyssa with the city near Cappadocia where he got influenced with this worship. He was being protective against Arian bishops during his throne at Constantinople. The Arians insisted creation had subsumed the Word stating that the Son was created by the Father to have creation especially restored to his being. However he had already practiced the Antiochian Liturgy with all of its Anaphora's and became much more strict in defining the Alexandrian theology. This addition to the original Alexandrian liturgy seems to suggest this was added to the Offering of the Lamb rather than making longer as a prayer of the Portion or (what is called an Appendix hymnal). This is similar to St. Basil's Fraction.


This is poorly sourced. Hence unverified for me to speak on. Sorry for any misunderstanding but this is just plain inaccurate on my part.