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« on: April 11, 2008, 06:44:12 PM »

I was doing some more reading on the unicorne.org site (see also the thread Mikhail Gorbachev discovered praying at the tomb of Francis of Assisi) and in particular their discussion of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church Kyiv Patriarchate and the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church.

This brought to mind sometimes I've never been quite clear on: are these two Churches part of "world Orthodoxy"?
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« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2008, 08:11:55 PM »

This brought to mind sometimes I've never been quite clear on: are these two Churches part of "world Orthodoxy"?

This is like asking whether the United States is an "Imperialist Empire"- it depends who you ask.
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« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2008, 08:30:07 PM »

This is like asking whether the United States is an "Imperialist Empire"- it depends who you ask.

 

Even so, I'd be interested to hear what different people have to say, to get some kind of feel for the situation.
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« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2008, 08:44:38 PM »

...in particular their discussion of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church Kyiv Patriarchate and the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church.

This brought to mind sometimes I've never been quite clear on: are these two Churches part of "world Orthodoxy"?

You'll have to describe your impression of what "world Orthodoxy" is, first.
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« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2008, 09:39:13 PM »

You'll have to describe your impression of what "world Orthodoxy" is, first.

On the contrary, one of the reasons for asking the question is to understand what is meant by "world Orthodoxy".

Thus far it seems clear to me that it at least contains all of the patriarchs who are in full communion with the EP, and it does not contain the GOC. (I believe it also included the ROCOR, even before the MP-ROCOR reconciliation.)

Blessings,
Peter.
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« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2008, 03:02:30 AM »

    Both the Kyivan Patriachate (further addressed as "K.P.") and the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church (further addressed as "UAOC") are neither part of "World Orthodoxy." This fact has roots in historical developments as well as more current affairs. I will try to address both.
    The Ukrainian Autocephalous Church movement began at the end of WWI era-it was based then (as it is now) more on Ukrainian natioanalism than on anything else. The atmopsphere in Russia at that time was fueled not only by bolshevism, but by nationalism, and by an urge to "reform" the Russian Orthodox Church, greatly spurred on and supported by the bolsheviks, to help them destroy the canonical Russian Orthodox Church.
    In situations like this-a wartorn nation that is on the brink of revolution and "the overturning of all values," those who wish to change the way things are can usually find all the help they need. As an Orthodox Church cannot operate without Bishops, it would have seemed that at that time, the Ukrainian natioalists would have had absolutely no trouble finding a few disenchanted Bishops of the Russian Church to aid their cause, but that was not the case. In an area of Russia that held possibly the largest concentration of Orthodox, not one Orthodox Bishop would assist the Ukrainian natioalist cause to create a Ukrainian Church. At the Council held to create the Ukrainian Autocephalous Church, version 1, those deisring to create the Church turned to a novel solution tho their problem-they had all the priests present at the Council "lay hands" upon their candidate for Bishop, whom they then declared a Bishop! Another group turned to an even more novel solution, and had an able assistant lay the hand of a dead Bishop on their candidate, and then declared him a "new Bishop." Of course, this group has been known as the "dead hand group" ever since.
   The Ukrainian nationalists who wanted thier own Ukrainian Church were also greatly influenced by Renovationism and the Living Church, a group suppored by the bolsheviks to destroy the Russian Church with several reforms-married bishops, twice married clergy, severe curtailing of the Divine Services, severe curtailing or abandonment of the fasts, adoption of the New Calendar, etc etc etc. Because of the situation with their "Bishops," and basic adoption of the renovationist agenda, no canonical Orthodox Church at that time recognized the Ukrainian Church as legitimate. After the Russian Civil War, when the bolsheviks tightened their grip on the country, they liquidated the Ukrainian Church completely, as it was no longer necessaryto their agenda, and even dengerous in its nationalist leanings.
    A few Ukrainians emigrated to the US after this period, where they started Ukrainian Churches-eventually-in the 1920's or 1930's. The Ukrainian Church of America arranged to go under the jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, while the Ukrainian Church of the USA remained "independent."
   The Ukrainian Church raised its head again in the WWII era, mainly when the Germans occupied the Ukriane, and were tolerant of Ukrainian nationalism as a way of fighting what they perceived as "Russian communism." This time, a few disenchanted M.P. Bishops DID join up, but they allowed many of the priests who had been ordained by the illegitimate "Bishops" of the WWI era Ukrainian Church to continue to serve, so, again, canonical Orthodoxy had nothing to do with this Ukrainian Church. Even though the Church of Poland DID consecrate a few Bishops for them, mainly because Metropolitan Dionisy (Waledinsky) of Warsaw hoped that this would give him an "in" to end up controlling the Ukrainian Church, still, canonical Orthodoxy would not "touch them with a ten foot pole." The issue of the priests with invalid ordinations was still prominent, as well as the fact that Orthodox Churches cannot be "started" by groups with no support from an already existing legitimate Church. No Orthodox Church of "World Orthodoxy" wanted to set that precedent!
   After WWII, the Ukrainian Church in Ukraine was once again liquidated by the KGB, with help from the MP (as the MP assisted with the liquidation of the Uniates in the Ukriane). It survived in "the diaspora," mainly Western Europe, North America and Australia. The "of America" church under the EP and the "of the USA" independent church, both headquartered in the US, were the largest groups, with the "of the USA" church being by far the largest. When communism fell and the Soviet Union disintegrated, the Ukrainian Church once again began to reorganize in Ukraine. The K.P. is basically a schism from the MP-its "Patriarch," Filaret (Denisenko), was defrocked and returned to the status of a "simple monk" by the MP because he openly lived with a mistress and their children while he was head of the MP autonomous "Ukrainian Church," and also for his widely known and notorious cooperation and whole hearted work for the KGB. He was the ONLY MP Hierarch deposed for his KGB connections! Also, his schismatic proclivities did not help his case with the MP! The K.P., by the way, has really little or no historical connection to any Ukrainian church that came before it. The same with the UAOC-communism fell, all of a sudden, "anything went," so some opportunistic fellows started themselves a Church! This organization, too, had little or no connection to the historical Ukrainian Autocephalous groups.
   The Ukrainian groups were prolific if nothing else-there were countless numbers of Ukrainian churches claiming to be THE Ukrainian Orthodox Church-The Ukrainian Church of America; the Ukrainian Church of the USA; the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church; the Autocephalous Ukrainian Orthodox Church; the Ukrainian Orthodox Autocephalous Church in Exile; the list is long, the list is seemingly never-ending, and the list is peopled by many many many charlatans and fakes who thought going in to the Church Business would be a swell idea.
    You know what they say about "birds of a feather"-the same thing goes in church situations, the only churches "concelebrating" with either the K.P. or the UAOC being churches of similar "canonical" status-the "Macedonian Orthodox Church" shares in the church celebrations of the K.P.; and, so-called "True Orthodox" groups-the ones that are seriously only "in it for the money" also concelebrate with different Ukrainian groups-one "True Orthodox" group claims that one of the Ukrainian groups helped them to "restore their episcopacy" by consecrating Bishops for them-and believe me, ANY True Orthodox Christian would KNOW that these Ukrainian groups had no episcopacy to begin with-so how could they help them restore theirs? While "World Orthodoxy" wants nothing to do with either the KP or the UAOC, any Traditionalist Orthodox, True Orthodox, etc., would be even more stringent against any contact with them.
   The only seeming exception is the Ecumenical Patriarchate. They would LIKE to be able to enforce the union of the KP and the UAOC, and them take them under their jurisdiction, and eventually grant them autocephaly. This would help to bolster the EP's "we have jurisdiction everywhere in world where anybody else doesnt or shouldnt have it now," which is largely a myth that has been began by recent Patriarchs of Constantinople, but, we need not go into all that now~!
As unrealistic as the EP is about their supposed jurisdictional rights, they are realistic enough to know that the MP would not stand for any interference in this case at all.
   So, it seems, for the foreseeable future, there will not be much change with this situation. And, as always in such situations, the poor people who are caught up in the jurisdictional and power play games of the powerful are the ones who suffer. The Orthodox people of these Ukrainian churches-organizatioons without grace, without legitimate or effectual Holy Mysteries, are the ones whose salvation is bieng endangered. Pray that a solution for the good of the Ukrainian Orthodox people can be found-hopefully, after those who only want to live off of those people and play at being big powerful hierarchs and "Patriarchs" have passed form the scene, and dedicated holly Bishops can be found to take in this flock.
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« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2008, 08:12:05 PM »

^ Warning - Opinion only.
Does not define "world Orthodoxy", Old Calendarists' issues, and 'schismastics' well at all.
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« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2008, 08:42:37 PM »

^ Warning - Opinion only.
Does not define "world Orthodoxy", Old Calendarists' issues, and 'schismastics' well at all.

Yes I rather suspected that A Sombra's answer (or was it a dissertation? ) was no more objective than the unicorne.org article.

-Peter.
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« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2008, 08:48:53 PM »

True Orthodox, etc., would be even more stringent against any contact with them.

That fact must come in handy when you're trying to distinguish the True Orthodox from the Untrue.

(Sorry. Just couldn't resist.)

-Peter.
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« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2008, 10:25:41 AM »

My take on this isuue is different from A Sombra's.

I do realize, of course, that the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Kyiv Patriarchate) (UOC-KP) and the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church (UAOC) are not (yet) in full communion with the Orthodox world, and that is very sad. But there was a time (~ 160 years, BTW!) when the Moscow Patriarchate was not in full communion with the rest of the Orthodox world! Not being in eucharistic unity may simply mean that the time for it has not yet come, because of history, politics, etc. - not because there is anything wrong with a particular Orthodox jurisdiction.

Ukrainian Orthodoxy has a long and difficult history. It did not begin in 1917, with the Bolshevik Revolution, as it might seem from A Sombra's "dissertation." The Ukrainian nation began to form in the 13th-14th century on the lands that were back then a part of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania (actually, the majority of this mediaeval principality were not Lithanians but Slavs). By early 17th century the national distinction between Ukrainians (who called themselves Rus', Rusy, or Rusyny) and the inhabitants of the Grand Duchy of Muscovy (who called themselves not "Russians," as it is wrongly believed in the modern West, but "Moscovites" - "moskovity," "moskovlyanye" etc.) was absolutely apparent. In 1620, Iov (Job) Boretsky, a Ukrainian, the archimandrite of the Kyiv ("Kiev")-based monastery of St. Michael, was consecrated by the Patriarch of Jerusalem to be the head of the autonomous Orthodox jurisdiction that called itself the Metropoly of Kyiv or the Metropoly of Rus', and was generally viewed as distinct from the Metropoly (or Patriarchy) of Muscovy. So, St. Vasyl' Lypkivs'ky in the early 1920's only continued the process of autocephalization of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, the process that had started centuries earlier but was brutally suppressed by the Romanov monarchy with its pet "Svyatyejshyj Synod."

I pray that my people, Ukrainians, have their united autocephalous Orthodox jurisdiction one happy day. I don't care much about how exactly this will happen, technically; but I am confident that it will.

G.
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« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2008, 10:49:42 AM »

I do realize, of course, that the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Kyiv Patriarchate) (UOC-KP) and the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church (UAOC) are not (yet) in full communion with the Orthodox world, and that is very sad. But there was a time (~ 160 years, BTW!) when the Moscow Patriarchate was not in full communion with the rest of the Orthodox world! Not being in eucharistic unity may simply mean that the time for it has not yet come, because of history, politics, etc. - not because there is anything wrong with a particular Orthodox jurisdiction.

The Bulgarian Exarchate is another example.  The Ukrainian churches are also much bigger than other churches in what is considered normalized status such as Japan, Finland or Sinai to name a few.

Quote
I pray that my people, Ukrainians, have their united autocephalous Orthodox jurisdiction one happy day. I don't care much about how exactly this will happen, technically; but I am confident that it will.

From your lips to God's ears!
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« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2008, 11:09:14 AM »

From your lips to God's ears!

Thank you, AMM. May I also add that the more we talk about how bad these "grace-deprived" "nationalist" jurisdictions are, the more we contribute into the schism, which is a sin. If a schism exists, it must be our first and foremost duty to try NOT to widen or deepen it.
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« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2008, 06:22:26 PM »

Hi Heorhij and AMM,

Thanks for your contributions. When I read A Sombra's, shall we say, spirited answer, I figured some others would disagree with him.

The Ukrainian churches are also much bigger than other churches in what is considered normalized status such as Japan, Finland or Sinai to name a few.

My understanding is that the Orthodox Church of Japan is autonomous (not autocephalous) just like the UOC (or UOC-MP; I'm not quite sure which is the official name).

Blessings,
Peter.
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« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2008, 08:04:49 AM »

My take on this isuue is different from A Sombra's.

I do realize, of course, that the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Kyiv Patriarchate) (UOC-KP) and the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church (UAOC) are not (yet) in full communion with the Orthodox world, and that is very sad. But there was a time (~ 160 years, BTW!) when the Moscow Patriarchate was not in full communion with the rest of the Orthodox world! Not being in eucharistic unity may simply mean that the time for it has not yet come, because of history, politics, etc. - not because there is anything wrong with a particular Orthodox jurisdiction.

Ukrainian Orthodoxy has a long and difficult history. It did not begin in 1917, with the Bolshevik Revolution, as it might seem from A Sombra's "dissertation." The Ukrainian nation began to form in the 13th-14th century on the lands that were back then a part of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania (actually, the majority of this mediaeval principality were not Lithanians but Slavs). By early 17th century the national distinction between Ukrainians (who called themselves Rus', Rusy, or Rusyny) and the inhabitants of the Grand Duchy of Muscovy (who called themselves not "Russians," as it is wrongly believed in the modern West, but "Moscovites" - "moskovity," "moskovlyanye" etc.) was absolutely apparent. In 1620, Iov (Job) Boretsky, a Ukrainian, the archimandrite of the Kyiv ("Kiev")-based monastery of St. Michael, was consecrated by the Patriarch of Jerusalem to be the head of the autonomous Orthodox jurisdiction that called itself the Metropoly of Kyiv or the Metropoly of Rus', and was generally viewed as distinct from the Metropoly (or Patriarchy) of Muscovy. So, St. Vasyl' Lypkivs'ky in the early 1920's only continued the process of autocephalization of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, the process that had started centuries earlier but was brutally suppressed by the Romanov monarchy with its pet "Svyatyejshyj Synod."

I pray that my people, Ukrainians, have their united autocephalous Orthodox jurisdiction one happy day. I don't care much about how exactly this will happen, technically; but I am confident that it will.

G.

George, I just noticed the change in jurisdiction.  Congratulations!
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« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2008, 07:36:13 PM »

ASombra, Reply #5 and Heorhij, Reply #9, thank you for information on Ukrainian Orthodoxy which I have not seen elsewear, laid out so explicitly and comprehensively.  Thank you.  This is another significant issue that needs to be addressed by the Church.  Just allowing these divisions to exist is another failing of Orthodox Church governance or lack thereof.

When you have time, would you likewise lay out the canonical connections of the hierarchy who initiated Church leadership in North America and that of their successors, who were brought under the Ecumenical Patriarchate?
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« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2008, 09:26:55 PM »

When you have time, would you likewise lay out the canonical connections of the hierarchy who initiated Church leadership in North America and that of their successors, who were brought under the Ecumenical Patriarchate?

Some information may be found here:
http://www.uocofusa.org/history.html

As well as:
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Ukrainian_Orthodox_Church_of_the_USA

Correction: Bishop and later Archbishop Vsevolod Maidansky of blessed memory indeed was a successor to Metropolitan of Andrew Kuschak of blessed memory. Upon unification in 1995-1996, he became one of the Hierarchs of UOC-USA.

Regarding Canada:

http://www.uocc.ca/en-ca/about/history/

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Ukrainian_Orthodox_Church_of_Canada
Update: Fr. Mitred Protopriest Michael Skrumeda declined the offer to be concentrated to the Episcopacy. The new Sobor will take place in August 2008 for the election of (1) more Bishop. Some chances exist that (2) new Bishops, instead of (1) will be elected.
http://www.uocc.ca/en-ca/news/sobor/

Heorhij and AMM, many thanks for your great messages here.
 
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« Reply #16 on: June 09, 2008, 04:38:26 PM »

Dear Starlight,

I recently read an exchange between several Ukrainian and Russian Orthodox men and women about the situation in the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church. These letters were published in a "LiveJournal" of a friend of mine who lives in Kharkiv, Ukraine.

What particularly struck me in this exchange was a note written by a priest who lives in Russia but considers himself a priest of the UAOC, Fr. Yakov Krotov: "To those of you guys who lament about UAOC not being part of "World Orthodoxy," I'll just say: there is no such thing as "World Orthodoxy," never has been! The only thing that exists and matters is the Eucharistic Unity (Fr. Krotov wrote, in Russian, "evkharisticheskoe obshchenie"). Now, my bishop, Vladyka Ihor Isichenko, the Archbishop of Kharkiv and Poltava, *IS* in Eucharistic unity ("v evkharisticheskom obshchenii") with Metropolitan Constantine of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (USA). And vl. Constantine *IS* in Eucharistic unity with His All-Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew. What else in the world should I worry about?"

How would you comment on this?

Thank you!

--Heorhij
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« Reply #17 on: June 09, 2008, 05:23:32 PM »

There will be a Ukrainian self governing church free of Muscovite domination.  It is just a matter of time.
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« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2008, 09:36:36 PM »

"For...the good estate of the Holy Churches of God and for the Unity of all of them, let us pray to the Lord."
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« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2008, 09:33:44 PM »

QUOTE: "What particularly struck me in this exchange was a note written by a priest who lives in Russia but considers himself a priest of the UAOC, Fr. Yakov Krotov: "To those of you guys who lament about UAOC not being part of "World Orthodoxy," I'll just say: there is no such thing as "World Orthodoxy," never has been! The only thing that exists and matters is the Eucharistic Unity (Fr. Krotov wrote, in Russian, "evkharisticheskoe obshchenie"). Now, my bishop, Vladyka Ihor Isichenko, the Archbishop of Kharkiv and Poltava, *IS* in Eucharistic unity ("v evkharisticheskom obshchenii") with Metropolitan Constantine of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (USA). And vl. Constantine *IS* in Eucharistic unity with His All-Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew. What else in the world should I worry about?"
How would you comment on this?"

   This is what I have seen referred to as the "electric theory of communion"-this is the first time I have seen it mentioned referring to a Church other than ROCOR. This charge was made against ROCOR (pre-2007) mainly by the most radical "True Orthodox"/"Old Calendarist" people, to PROVE(!!!!) that ROCOR was no longer even close to being a Traditional Church, but sinking into the darkest depths of ecumenism- "Since ROCOR is in communion with the Serbs (or Jerusalem Patriarchate-this was pretty much interchangeable), and since the Serbs are in communion with the Moscow Patriarchate, then ROCOR is in communion with the Moscow Patriarchate!" This line of reasoning, of course, is ridiculous. ROCOR would not have ever said they were in communion with the MP, nor would the MP have claimed being in communion with ROCOR. This is just one of these wild stretches of the imagination that people come up with to justify their pet agendas.

   The same would refer here-I do know that UAOC Bishops and the Bishops of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA are not officially in communion- is it just THESE TWO Bishops of these groups who are in communion? Some sort of "private arrangement"? And, we have Bishop Ihor stating his Bishop "is in Communion with..."-but nothing on the matter from his Bishop. As Metropolitan Constantine is under the authority of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, and the Ecumenical Patriarchate is certainly NOT in communion with the UAOC, I can guarantee the Ecumenical Patriarchate never gave permission for either the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA, nor Bishop Constantine to be in communion with the UAOC. If Bishop Constantine entered into some sort of "agreement" without the knowledge or permission of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, could that agreement possibly be legitimate? AND while Fr. Yakov claims his Bishop is in communion with Bishop Constantine, and thereby with Constantinople, his Metropolitan seems to not be at all interested in communion with Constantinople- the ruling Bishop of the UAOC, Metropolitan Mefody, "Worldwide Primate of the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church," in the "Kyiv Post," 29 Nov 2006, as reproduced on the American UAOC website (http://www.uaoc.org/) stated: "Autocephalous means that we are independent. It means that we do not answer to an Ecumenical Patriarch in Constantinople or anywhere else. A Ukrainian Church cannot be Ukrainian if it submits to someone." Of course, ALL the Ukrainian Churches would no doubt wish to be at least in communion with each other, if not united. But then there would have to be an agreement as to WHO would be in charge!  Apparently this is just one of those things someone says, for whatever reasons. Spur of the moment, possibly ... but, just as when this "electric theory" was thrown at ROCOR, doesn't mean a lot.
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« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2008, 12:51:11 AM »

What particularly struck me in this exchange was a note written by a priest who lives in Russia but considers himself a priest of the UAOC, Fr. Yakov Krotov: "To those of you guys who lament about UAOC not being part of "World Orthodoxy," I'll just say: there is no such thing as "World Orthodoxy," never has been! The only thing that exists and matters is the Eucharistic Unity (Fr. Krotov wrote, in Russian, "evkharisticheskoe obshchenie"). Now, my bishop, Vladyka Ihor Isichenko, the Archbishop of Kharkiv and Poltava, *IS* in Eucharistic unity ("v evkharisticheskom obshchenii") with Metropolitan Constantine of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (USA). And vl. Constantine *IS* in Eucharistic unity with His All-Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew. What else in the world should I worry about?"


Heorhij, thank you for the great question. While I did read writings of Fr. Yakov Krotov for a long time, and I highly respect him, I disagree with his idea about absence of World Orthodoxy. Archbishop Ihor (Isichenko), by all means is one of the best Orthodox Hierarchs of Ukraine in terms of erudition, honesty, spirituality - all of those. However, unfortunately Archbishop Ihor and his group - really great people were pushed out by Metropolitan Mefodiy (Kudraykov) and now they are a separate group. From my point of view, this situation seems very sad. Archbishop Ihor and his followers aspire to gain Canonical Communion with World Orthodoxy. Actually, so does Metropolitan Mefodiy. Now, UAOC and UOC-MP proceed with a lot of talks and discussions aiming to achieve unity. Of course, Ukrainian Orthodox Church deserved to have a status of a Local Orthodox Church. Fortunately, pro-autocephaly clergy of UOC-MP participates in those talks. But this process is more then hated by Filaret from one side and post-KGB, pro-Putin, chauvinistic and ritualistic forces within MP from another side. For the record, I do not characterize all MP that way. Removal of Bishop Ippolit (Hil'ko) of UOC-MP definitely was a very good action. That guy was a real hater of anything Ukrainian. Many of his statements were philetist heresy. Also, he was placing rituals above real spirituality. If only Metropolitan Agathangel (Savin) also would be let go!
Some young, energetic, progressive forces within UOC-KP also try to join the process. Archbishop of UOC-KP Dmitry (Rudiuk) and newly ordained Bishop of UOC-KP Evstratiy (Zorya) can be mentioned.
However, right now it is still early to see the complete Communion between UOC-USA-EP and UAOC. There is no any "private arrangement" against the will of Holy Ecumenical Synod of Constantinople.

There will be a Ukrainian self governing church free of Muscovite domination.  It is just a matter of time.

AMM, I totally agree. That is my great hope! And now it seems more and more real.

"For...the good estate of the Holy Churches of God and for the Unity of all of them, let us pray to the Lord."

Amen. Thank you very much, BTRAKAS.


A Sombra, if Metropolitan Mefodiy did not want to subordinate to Constantinople in 2006, it does not mean that he wanted to avoid the Communion with the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople.

In my opinion, chances for unity and autocephaly as one united goal, have increased.
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« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2008, 01:32:36 AM »

QUOTE: A Sombra, if Metropolitan Mefodiy did not want to subordinate to Constantinople in 2006, it does not mean that he wanted to avoid the Communion with the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople.


   The two Ukrainian Churches that are recognized by "World Orthodoxy" are the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada, and the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA. They are both, as you put it, subordinate to Constantinople. If any of the Ukrainian Churches are recognized, first of all, it would probnably be Patriarch Filaret Denisenko's "Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Kyiv Patriarchate," as it is by far numerically superior to Metropolitan Mefodiy's UAOC. And, I think it is clear that the "regularization" of any Ukrainian Church would involve at least a short period of "subordination" to Constantinople. So, atr least in the beginning, "Communion" with Constantinople for the UOC would="subordination."

 
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« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2008, 10:35:05 PM »

There are three Ukrainian Churches with presence in Latin America:

The Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church (Mefodiy)
With presence in Colombia and Ecuador
http://www.geocities.com/irsocolombia/

The Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church "Canonical" (Patriarch Moisey)
With presence in Mexico and other countries
http://archieparquia-mexico.site.voila.fr/

The Ukrainian Autonomous Orthodox Church in America
With presence in Ecuador, Brazil and other South American countries
http://www.ortodoxa.net/

I used to be very critical of these groups.

However I came to a conclusion: sooner or later there will be a fully recognized Autocephalous Church in the Ukraine involving the heads of these groups.

I know the ones in Mexico and their missions have more followers than those of the Canonical Churches (in fact they don't even have missions), a lot of people have known Orthodoxy because of them, and I think they're not doing a bad job.

There's only one thing that makes me worried. Some of these priests have obtained their orders from Old Catholic and vagant groups and have been accepted by the Ukrainian Churches (and they don't clarify if they were "re-consecrated" or "re-ordained"). The Roman Catholic Church for example, in practice, does not recognize people coming from the "Brazilian Church" and Old Catholic Churches as being truly priests.

This will be a problem, I think.

Greetings.



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« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2008, 11:37:26 PM »

There is a canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Bishop in Latin America, Jeremiah, I think, although I don't see him listed at ORI.
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« Reply #24 on: June 27, 2008, 08:26:10 PM »

 If any of the Ukrainian Churches are recognized, first of all, it would probably be Patriarch Filaret Denisenko's "Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Kyiv Patriarchate," as it is by far numerically superior to Metropolitan Mefodiy's UAOC.

Numbers of parishes by themselves do not add canonicity, my friend. Who know, may be without actions of Mr. Denysenko, both before and after his creation of UOC-KP, we would already have a Local Orthodox Church in Ukraine.

And, I think it is clear that the "regularization" of any Ukrainian Church would involve at least a short period of "subordination" to Constantinople. So, atr least in the beginning, "Communion" with Constantinople for the UOC would="subordination."

 

Certainly, that variant possesses a very high probability. Alternatively, it can be only considered as a blessing coming from Constantinople for the establishment of the Local Orthodox Church. Hopefully, statements of recognition from all other Local Orthodox Churches will follow shorty after that.

However I came to a conclusion: sooner or later there will be a fully recognized Autocephalous Church in the Ukraine involving the heads of these groups.

I know the ones in Mexico and their missions have more followers than those of the Canonical Churches (in fact they don't even have missions), a lot of people have known Orthodoxy because of them, and I think they're not doing a bad job.


Thank you for your observations and your conclusions.

The Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church "Canonical" (Patriarch Moisey)

With Moisey, I would recommend to be careful. He does not use word "canonical" in the name of his group any more. He elevated himself "the Ecumenical Patriarch". Also, Moisey preaches reincarnation and makes up that Jesus Christ and Saint Mary visit him on daily basis. We can only pray that his followers in Mexico will realize the problem and will make a decision to look for a different spiritual leadership.

I wrote something about it in this thread:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,11763.0.html

Moisey should be avoided as much as Gregory of Colorado.


There is a canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Bishop in Latin America, Jeremiah, I think, although I don't see him listed at ORI.

Yes, I have an honor to talk to him several times. Bishop Jeremiah is absolutely wonderful! An excellent missionary. He got younger generations much more involved in the Church. And huge numbers of converts are coming to his diocese. On a personal level, he is very friendly and spiritual.



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« Reply #25 on: June 29, 2008, 06:51:41 PM »

Dear Starlight

In fact many of the bishops that originally supported Moisey later dennounced him because of what he preaches and teaches, and also because he sent them consecrated bread inside the antimension instead of relics. He clarified that he does not teach re-incarnation, but I don't know exactly if this is true.

Regarding Moisey's Mexican bishop, before coming to Moisey's Church, he'd been a bishop of the vagant "Inclusive Orthodox Church" whose lines of Apostolic Succession doubtful (and there's a double doubt when you do not know who ordained him a priest). However I must say that he and their followers now seem quite Orthodox, they have some missions and are doing fine.

I don't really understand why they insist on supporting Moisey so strongly if it's quite clear that he's not in his right mind. Maybe it has something to do with the Apostolic Succession itself, as Moisey seems to be receiving anyone as long as he's accepted as Patriarch, he doesn't even requiere a letter of canonical release from a previous superior and he does not question the shady orders of Old-Catholic and vagant groups:

http://www.soborna.org/vp/en/

Those that rejected Moisey, founded the Ukrainian Autonomous Orthodox Church in America, from what I've seen they all have an Orthodox Apostolic Succession and in case there is a new Ukrainian Church recognized by World Orthodoxy, they might be accepted:

http://www.uaocamerica.org

Now, what about the group of Michael Javchak Champion? They seem to be in communion with Metropolitan Methodius of the UAOC, but their line of succession is connected with Alexis Nizza, a man who's regarded as founder of many pseudo-churches and who retired as a Roman Catholic layman.

Javchak received Odon Abad as bishop of Colombia, a man who was ordained by some shady Brazilian breakaway sect, just like that wihtout questioning his status as a priest or bishop. Odon Abad's "holy orders" had previously been "validated" by a notorious Chilean fraudster (Alexandros Cariagas) who posed as an Old Calendarist bishop and was later admitted by Moisey in his Synod (he was briefly in Mexico, where he joined an Antiochian monastery until he escaped once they discovered he tried to scam some people again).

I have serious doubts about these groups, but it's the fault of Canonical Orthodoxy, they don't try to reach the people, they don't evangelize because they're afraid to harm their relations with the Roman bishops. If they ordained more local priests we would have a lot of followers under Canonical jurisdictions and there would be no need for these groups.



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« Reply #26 on: July 19, 2008, 12:33:15 PM »

=Bump=

Dear Mexican,
I really apologize for missing this thread. I have been so busy lately.

Thank you very much for your excellent observations.

My understanding is that when Moisey started to realize how quickly he looses followers due to his promotion of anti-Christian doctrine of reincarnation, he pulled the breaks on this subjects and started to deny this ideology. Of course, I also would leave a heretic, who preaches reincarnation.

Michael Javchak Champion seems to be much better then his retired predecessor, Stephen Popovich. More mission oriented. Stephen Popovich was the first clergy person, outside of former USSR, who being approached Filaret and joined UOC-KP. Also, he preached his jurisdiction is better, because they are real Ukrainians. Pure heresy of phyletism. Michael Javchak Champion does not make similar statements. Never.

Currently, solution in Ukrainian Orthodoxy seems much more close then ever due to the visit of His All-Holiness and internal efforts of various jurisdictions - UAOC, the majority of UOC-MP and even certain circles within UOC-KP. Of course, may be it would sound as an overly brave and unrealistic dream, but it the ideal variant for Ukrainian Orthodoxy in Latin America would be the unification of all those dioceses and parishes (which are currently divided in various Ukrainian Orthodox jurisdictions) under the omophoron of a great missionary, His Grace Bishop Jeremiah (Ferens). Some of those in the groups in Latin America, outside of Canonical communion, may need to re-ordained, but at long as their moral character would be appropriate for Orthodox leadership, they should take their place in the new Exarchate. Most likely that all would be in the jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarchate.

In terms of ordination of native clergy, the situation improves at least in some places. The diocese of Bishop Jeremiah serves as good example. Also, I had observed pictures from the last trip of Archbishop Vsevolod Maidansky of blessed memory (+ December 2007) to Central America. He concelebrated a lot with the local clergy of Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Central America and even performed at least one ordination. That all was last autumn. It was exciting to see that some priests were converts from local population!

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« Reply #27 on: October 15, 2008, 06:12:02 PM »

Starlight and Friends

I'm sorry I had not come to this forum for some months as I was outside my country.

I was a little bit dissapointed to see that nothing happened in the last summit of Patriarchs and that there was no recognition of the UOK-KP and UAOC by the EP that would bring unity to the Churches in Ukraine.

Some things have happened here in Latin America that are somehow connected to the situation in Ukraine:

It seems that Daniel of Veracruz (Moisey's bishop in Mexico) was in Colombia to consecrate another bishop for his Church! So there are now three Ukrainian-Orthodox Churches in Colombia: the community of Odon Abad (Michael Champion's bishop in Colombia), the community of Archbishop Chrysostomos of Ecuador in Colombia (part of the UAOCA led by Metropolitan Ioan) and now this Church of Moisey.

I used to think that if the UAOC-Mefodiy becomes Canonical, Michael Champion's group would also become Canonical, as well as Odon Abad's group in Colombia (whose own holy orders are doubtful as they come from a shady Brazilian independent group). However someone told me this would not happen. This is because according to some sources, Michael Champion isn't really recognized as a part of the UAOC by Metropolitan Mefodiy (even thought he might put his pics on his site) and that he's tolerated as he provides UAOC clergy with visas.

An Argentinian blogger also posted that Champion doesn't have a following in the USA and that the pictures that appear on his site are those of a Belarussan church which is "rented" by Champion. This same blogger says that the link between Champion and Mefodiy is actually Bohdan Kulyk (Moisey's brother).

As Starlight said, some of the clergy will have to be ordained because their orders are doubtful.

Have a good day!




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« Reply #28 on: October 16, 2008, 10:24:08 PM »

Mexican, thank you for the important update. Well, the healing of any schism needs time. Of course, it would be much better to see the results coming sooner. But in my humble opinion, with such a complicated situation, it makes sense to go a little bit slower, but to make sure that any and all possible problems on the way would be avoided.

Yes, Michael (Champion) does not have too much following in USA. Bishop Bohdan (Kulyk) of UAOC is indeed Moisey's brother. He was originally ordained by Champion's group, when Moisey already was not in friendship with Champion. Then Bishop Bohdan was accepted into UAOC by Metropolitan Mefodiy (Kudryakov) shorty, without a re-ordination.

Actually, I heard some good things about Bishop Bohdan.

Thanks again!

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« Reply #29 on: January 13, 2009, 09:24:29 AM »

Quote
There is a canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Bishop in Latin America, Jeremiah
Who is this Jeremiah? From what jurisdiction he is? Is hE a canonical bishop? I search on the internet, but i don't find any more information about him. Could somewane give me much informations about him?
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« Reply #30 on: January 13, 2009, 12:15:32 PM »

He is a bishop of UOC of Diaspora (EP's structure). He signed their Nativity letter so he must be canonical. His BIO in Greek. He looks like this:
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« Reply #31 on: January 13, 2009, 12:41:43 PM »


Here is the Nativity Letter from the Permanent Conference of Ukrainian Hierarchs Beyond the Borders of Ukraine from the Ukrainian Orthodox of the USA website   http://uocusa.org/news_081220_1.html

PERMANENT CONFERENCE OF UKRAINIAN ORTHODOX HIERARCHS BEYOND THE BORDERS OF UKRAINE

Feast of the Nativity of our Lord and God and Savior Jesus Christ 2009

To the Venerable Clergy, Monastics and Faithful of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church beyond the Borders of Ukraine and to our Brothers and Sisters of the Faith in Ukraine: 

Peace be with you from the Christ-Child – born of God’s Love for us!

Christ is Born!

Once again, we experience, by the grace of God, the Great Feast of the Nativity of Our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ in the midst of Winter, bringing to us a Spring-like joy, the joy of the birth of the Infant, “a great joy which will be for all people…for there is born to you this day in the city of David, a Savior, Who is Christ the Lord” (Luke 2: 10-11).

Today is born the One whose advent the Righteous men and women of the Old Testament hoped for, the One proclaimed by the Prophets of the nation of Israel, the Creator of the World, the Almighty and Sustaining God is born of the All-Holy Virgin Mary as a weak human child.  The Second Person of the Holy Trinity becomes the Son of Man, to make us children of God by Grace, so that we may, with boldness and without condemnation call upon our Heavenly God, as Father. The Son of God descends from the Heaven to raise all to Heaven, to grant us life eternal, “For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His Cross (Colossians 1: 19-20). By His birth the Son of God humbles Himself as the Apostle Paul says: “…being in the form of God…made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant and coming in the likeness of men” (Philippians 2:6-7) with endless love for us.

Today heaven and earth rejoice, “the fullness of time has arrived” (Galatians 4:4), anticipated for centuries, promised by God - “So all this was done that it might be fulfilled, which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying:  ‘Behold, the Virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel’, which is translated ‘God with us.’” (Matthew 1:22) Angels and humans spiritually rejoice. Today we sing with the Holy Church: “Christ is born – glorify Him! Christ has come from Heaven – welcome Him! Christ is on earth – exult Him! (Irmos of the Nativity Matins Canon)

The world, which after the sinful fall of Adam and Eve, was veiled in sadness and darkness and because of sin lost its filial relationship with God, rejoices today for the Son of God, by His nativity, again renews to humanity the path of reconciliation with God, which leads to adoption by God and  to Theosis (becoming one with God).

On the eve of this Holy Day, more that 2000 years ago, the new Bethlehem star shone above the world to guide the Wise Men from the East to the new-born Christ the Savior in a Bethlehem cave. As the Evangelist Matthew records, among the first to arrive and welcome the new-born God-man were the Wise Men from the East, “who saw His star and came to worship Him” (Matthew 2:2). Saint John Chrysostom comments that the star of Bethlehem was not an ordinary star, for it moved not as do other stars in the firmament, from east to west, but from the north of Jerusalem to the south to Bethlehem; the wise men from the east saw it throughout the day and the night, until it stood over the Bethlehem cave, “where the young child was.” (Matthew 2:9)

Saint John Chrysostom states that this was not an ordinary star, but an invisible power, which appeared in the form of a star. Other Holy Fathers note that it was the Archangel Gabriel, who assumed that form of a star and who, after the Wise Men worshipped and presented gifts to the new-born Christ the Savior, appeared to them in a dream in his true form, warning them not to return to Herod.

More than 2000 years ago the star of Bethlehem guided the Wise Men to worship the newborn Savior and today that star guides all of us to our parish churches to worship Him, Who is “the Way, the Truth and the Life.” (John 14:6)  For more than 1020 years this star of Bethlehem has enlightened the way traveled by our God-loving Ukrainian people in Ukraine and beyond her borders. This path of life in Christ, followed by our people was at times similar to the times of martyrdom experienced in the early ages of Christianity.  For over 70 years the satanic Communist empire sought to replace the star of Bethlehem with its red star, but the light of the star of Bethlehem never did and never will grow dim and will never cease to enlighten the way traveled by our God-loving nation for “God is with us”, Who is born today in Bethlehem of Judea.

We wholeheartedly greet all of you – our spiritual children and our brothers and sisters in the Faith and by blood lineage, who reside in Ukraine and in the Diaspora, with the great feast of the Nativity of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and we pray that the blessings of the new-born Christ the Savior will remain with you at all times unto the ages of ages.

In His abundant Love and with great Joy,

+ Constantine
Metropolitan – Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA and in Diaspora

+ John
Metropolitan – Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada

+ Antony
Archbishop – Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA

+Ioan
Archbishop – Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Diaspora

+ Yurij
Archbishop – Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada

+ Jeremiah
Archbishop – Ukrainian Orthodox Church, South America Eparchy

+ Ilarion
Bishop – Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada

+ Andrij
Bishop – Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada

+ Daniel
Bishop – Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA
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« Reply #32 on: January 13, 2009, 12:42:48 PM »

I've already posted it Tongue
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« Reply #33 on: January 14, 2009, 02:10:50 AM »

oh, i see. So is a canonical bishop. Thank you all.
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