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Author Topic: Oriental Orthodox Con-celebration  (Read 2248 times) Average Rating: 0
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Amdetsion
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HH Abuna Pawlos - Patriarch of Ethiopia


« on: April 11, 2008, 04:52:42 PM »

In accordance with the seated cannonical archbishops and general bishops of the Holy Oriental Orthodox Church community of New York and the Metropolitan area are praying that God wills a joint celebrate of the Holy Eucarist together on May 10, 2008 at 8:00 am in New York City.

All the heads of the Holy Oriental Orthodox Church community here shall jointly assist in the Liturgy which shall for the first time be in the Ethiopian tradition headed by the archbishop of the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahido Church HE Bitsue Abuna Abrham.

The Liturgical service and fellowship shall be held at St Vaartan's Cathedral of the Armenian Orthodox Church, New York, New York; HE Barsamian Archbishop.

Over the 10 years or more of this Holy Gathering of the one Church it has been a very uplifting experience to glorify Christ our God with all our tradtirions acting in unison on one Alter.

I pray to God that He continue to give us His eternal grace and continue to enrich in us the true Spirit of His Holy Church which can not be divided and bring all the world wide Orthodox Church which is Holy and Apostolic into a stronger and prevailing unity that we all want and need so that when our master returns He will find us busy praying together in peace and unity. When upon His coming and seeing His undivided house in good order He will say to us all "good my true and faithful servants".

It can happen now!

We are one body...Amen

Worship space is limited.
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"ETHIOPIA shall soon stretch out her hands unto God".....Psalm 68:vs 31

"Are ye not as children of the ETHIOPIANS unto me, O children of Israel"?....Amos 9: vs 7
falafel333
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« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2008, 09:51:59 PM »

Will the Syrian and Indian Orthodox Churches be both in attendance? I ask because I understand that the Syrian Orthodox Church has excommunicated the Indian Orthodox Church.
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minasoliman
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« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2008, 12:31:08 PM »

Will the Syrian and Indian Orthodox Churches be both in attendance? I ask because I understand that the Syrian Orthodox Church has excommunicated the Indian Orthodox Church.

In the NJ/NY, in my experience, I have not seen any Indian Orthodox (with the exception of the Indian Orthodox that is under the Syrian Church) or Eritrean Orthodox attend.  But the Syrians and "Syrian Indians" attend.

God bless.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2008, 12:35:33 PM by minasoliman » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2008, 05:50:50 PM »

Also does the Ethiopian Church still have the Eritrian church in excommunication?
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minasoliman
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« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2008, 01:58:49 AM »

Also does the Ethiopian Church still have the Eritrian church in excommunication?

Good question...I don't know that one.  Frankly, I never thought they excommunicated each other.  Just didn't have good relationships with each other really.
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Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Amdetsion
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« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2008, 03:48:45 PM »

Good question...I don't know that one.  Frankly, I never thought they excommunicated each other.  Just didn't have good relationships with each other really.

There is not now and never was any 'excommunication' between the Ethiopian Orthodox and Eritrean Orthodox. We are ONE communion and ONE faith.
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"ETHIOPIA shall soon stretch out her hands unto God".....Psalm 68:vs 31

"Are ye not as children of the ETHIOPIANS unto me, O children of Israel"?....Amos 9: vs 7
Amdetsion
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« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2008, 03:50:50 PM »

In the NJ/NY, in my experience, I have not seen any Indian Orthodox (with the exception of the Indian Orthodox that is under the Syrian Church) or Eritrean Orthodox attend.  But the Syrians and "Syrian Indians" attend.

God bless.

Sadly this seems to be correct.
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"ETHIOPIA shall soon stretch out her hands unto God".....Psalm 68:vs 31

"Are ye not as children of the ETHIOPIANS unto me, O children of Israel"?....Amos 9: vs 7
Mor Ephrem
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« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2008, 06:20:51 PM »

These events are usually under the auspices of SCOOCH, and because the Indian Orthodox Church (among other jurisdictions) is not a part of this body, it is not represented.  There's every likelihood that if we sought to be a part of the celebrations in a formal way, some trouble would arise from the Syrians and Jacobites (Indians under Antioch).  And so AFAIK we are not invited or informed, and we do not try to get in.   

I do know, however, Indian Orthodox who have attended these events as worshippers (myself included, pre- and post-ordination) with no problems whatsoever, and I think more might come if they a) knew about these events and b) were certain that their presence wouldn't be considered a problem.  Whether we would be allowed to receive the Eucharist, I don't know.  Certainly we have "problems" with only two of the SCOOCH jurisdictions, and so if they hosted an event, I would steer clear out of respect and to avoid problems, as I did when the Malankara Archdiocese (Jacobite) hosted the concelebration a year or two ago.*  But if the Armenians or the Ethiopians, for example, hosted, I'm not sure what the protocol would be.  In "normal" circumstances, they would welcome us to the chalice (I'm always welcomed to receive the Eucharist and/or serve at the altar after I introduce myself to the priest/bishop in Armenian churches, for example, and my experience has been similar in Coptic churches); I'm not sure if this would occur in these "special" circumstances, if only for the sake of "keeping the peace".

*Clarification: I went, I did not commune. 
« Last Edit: April 14, 2008, 06:22:58 PM by Mor Ephrem » Logged

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Amdetsion
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« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2008, 04:16:38 PM »

These events are usually under the auspices of SCOOCH, and because the Indian Orthodox Church (among other jurisdictions) is not a part of this body, it is not represented.  There's every likelihood that if we sought to be a part of the celebrations in a formal way, some trouble would arise from the Syrians and Jacobites (Indians under Antioch).  And so AFAIK we are not invited or informed, and we do not try to get in.   

I do know, however, Indian Orthodox who have attended these events as worshippers (myself included, pre- and post-ordination) with no problems whatsoever, and I think more might come if they a) knew about these events and b) were certain that their presence wouldn't be considered a problem.  Whether we would be allowed to receive the Eucharist, I don't know.  Certainly we have "problems" with only two of the SCOOCH jurisdictions, and so if they hosted an event, I would steer clear out of respect and to avoid problems, as I did when the Malankara Archdiocese (Jacobite) hosted the concelebration a year or two ago.*  But if the Armenians or the Ethiopians, for example, hosted, I'm not sure what the protocol would be.  In "normal" circumstances, they would welcome us to the chalice (I'm always welcomed to receive the Eucharist and/or serve at the altar after I introduce myself to the priest/bishop in Armenian churches, for example, and my experience has been similar in Coptic churches); I'm not sure if this would occur in these "special" circumstances, if only for the sake of "keeping the peace".

*Clarification: I went, I did not commune. 

I am completely without knowledge of the problem you speak of here.

What is SCOOCH?

I am very bad with acronyms.

Tell who you can.

While it is still some time there may be a chance that you and others in the above jurisdiction may attend. I do not know what would be wrong with all of us trying to come together in Christ name?

God bless you.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2008, 04:17:44 PM by Amdetsion » Logged

"ETHIOPIA shall soon stretch out her hands unto God".....Psalm 68:vs 31

"Are ye not as children of the ETHIOPIANS unto me, O children of Israel"?....Amos 9: vs 7
Mor Ephrem
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« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2008, 10:46:32 PM »

SCOOCH = Standing Conference of Oriental Orthodox Hierarchs.  It is the OO equivalent of the EO council of bishops known as SCOBA.  But like SCOBA, it doesn't include all the legitimate Oriental Orthodox jurisdictions.  The Indian Orthodox Church and the Armenian Catholicosate of Cilicia, for example, are not part of it.  And there is allegedly an Ethiopian jurisdiction that is not represented, though it is recognised by everyone--I am sorry I don't know which this is.  At any rate, these are largely due to church political concerns: Antioch v. India, Etchmiadzin v. Cilicia, etc. 

The concelebration is sponsored by SCOOCH, and includes only their hierarchs and member churches, so it's natural if the others don't come.  Some people will use these groups and events to say that this or that jurisdiction is illegitimate, a claim which looks foolish after you do some investigating.  It is their event, and that's all.  Whether members of the absent jurisdictions can participate in any way, if even only by Communion (the ultimate way, but not as "showy" as full-on concelebration), has never been clear to me.   
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Amdetsion
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« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2008, 04:21:42 PM »

SCOOCH = Standing Conference of Oriental Orthodox Hierarchs.  It is the OO equivalent of the EO council of bishops known as SCOBA.  But like SCOBA, it doesn't include all the legitimate Oriental Orthodox jurisdictions.  The Indian Orthodox Church and the Armenian Catholicosate of Cilicia, for example, are not part of it.  And there is allegedly an Ethiopian jurisdiction that is not represented, though it is recognised by everyone--I am sorry I don't know which this is.  At any rate, these are largely due to church political concerns: Antioch v. India, Etchmiadzin v. Cilicia, etc. 

The concelebration is sponsored by SCOOCH, and includes only their hierarchs and member churches, so it's natural if the others don't come.  Some people will use these groups and events to say that this or that jurisdiction is illegitimate, a claim which looks foolish after you do some investigating.  It is their event, and that's all.  Whether members of the absent jurisdictions can participate in any way, if even only by Communion (the ultimate way, but not as "showy" as full-on concelebration), has never been clear to me.   

Thamk you.

Please note that the Ethiopian has only one jurisdiction on earht and it is recognised worldwide.

Patriarch Paulus is its Patriarch
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"ETHIOPIA shall soon stretch out her hands unto God".....Psalm 68:vs 31

"Are ye not as children of the ETHIOPIANS unto me, O children of Israel"?....Amos 9: vs 7
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« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2008, 11:37:41 PM »

I think Mor has made  the IOC stand clear, oriental orthodox concelebrations do take place in places like Atlanta in which the Indian Church does take part ( in that particular celebration the Indian jurisdiction directly under the Syrians abstain).

Besides anybody from India knows that laity very often commune at churches of the other faction , and children are baptized at prominent pilgrim centers irrespective of the factional allegiance of the parents

Suraj
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paul2004
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« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2008, 06:06:02 PM »

Is it Indian Orthodox Church excommunicating SOC?  The reason is that one of the Indian Catholicos did condemn the SOC for some violation of traditions.  I am not aware of any explicit excommunication, but there is tension between the two for last few decades on faith related issues and Church administration. SOC, especially their Indian branch, is forcing some core Roman Catholic teachings, such as primacy of Peter.  Recently SOC entered in to communion with Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox. This is not formally accepted by Indian Orthodox. 

BTW, in all other places Indian Orthodox is part of Oriental Orthodox concelebrations.

-Paul
 
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« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2008, 06:55:26 PM »

Thamk you.

Please note that the Ethiopian has only one jurisdiction on earht and it is recognised worldwide.

Patriarch Paulus is its Patriarch

Dear Amdetsion,

The canonical title of the Head of the Indian Church (Eastern Syrian Church), in the succession of Apostle Thomas is 'Catholicos of the East'.  In India, there is only one legally recognized Catholicos of the East, H.H. Didymus 1, head of the Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church (also known as Indian Orthodox Church).   It is a combination of two titles - Catholicos of the East and Malankara Metropolitan.

After having reached a compromise with the head of the Indian Church, i.e the Catholicos of the East and Malankara Metropolitan, the head of Jacobite faction (Metropolitan Thomas Mar Dionysius) was forced by some extremist Jacobite people to go to Patriarch in Damascus and get the title as Catholicos.  He was given the title 'Catholicos of India'. This is a  very new title created only in 2002, to satisfy the extremists. Earlier the Patriarch himself had made a decree to accept the Supreme Court decision and work for unity. These extremists are also supported by some of the SOC bishops, including the Bishop of the Eastern Diocese of SOC in USA. This is why in Eastern USA, OO concelebrations happen in a special way, which is not normal among Oriental Orthodox. How can the SOC bishop of Esstern USA who is speaks against the Indian Church (I have read in newspaper an address made by the bishop when he was invited by a Jacobite Church) and encouraging people of Jacobite group to fight against the Indian Church invite the Indian Church?

I must add that not all SOC bishops are against the Indian Church. This circumstance is special in the USA. In  Western USA a group of Syrians accepted the Indian Church. Recently in the Eastern USA also two congregations accepted the Indian Church.

Indian Supreme Court had requested both groups to unite in 2002 through a united council under the supervision of Supreme Court appointed counsel. The extremist section of the Jacobite group (headed by Bishop Thomas Mar Dionysius) boycotted the meeting. Another section accepted to remain united.  The group separated from the Indian Church is supported by Patriarch in Damascus and the Patriarch gives illegal ordination to Indian candidates without consulting with the Catholicos of the East. This is violation of both law and canon. Normally ordinations in the Indian Church are approved by the Synod headed by the Catholicos of the East, the canonical head.

Just like Abune Paulus is the legitimate Patriarch, there is only one legitimate 'Catholicos of the East' and 'Malankara Metropolitan' recognized in India.  It is a combination of two titles - Catholicos of the East and Malankara Metropolitan. Perhaps this is similar to Patriarch of Ethiopian Church is also the Echege of the See of St. Tekle Heimanot.  It is very traditional for us. Canonically Cathoilicos of the East is in the succession of Apostle Thomas, the Apostle of the East.  But the Jacobite extremists deny this. They claim Patriarch of Antioch is the supreme universal head and the Indian Church is a mere subordinate. This model is not recognized in the See of Catholicos of the East. They are trying to revive a temporary reduction that existed many years back, called the 'Mafrian'.

I do not know why rest of OO in Eastern Diocese of USA is not considering the canonicity of the title 'Catholicos of India', the new title instituted in 2002 against the legal 'Catholicos of the East'. 

Their Malankara Jacobite bishop in USA was not legally ordained. He was not recognized by the Synod of Catholicos of the East.   He was sent to Damascus to be ordained by the Catholicos of India, head of the Jacobite group.  The contradicting aspect is that the Malankara Diocese of Jacobite Church in USA is not under their head (Catholicos of India, head of Jacobite group) in India, but he is directly under Patriarch in Damascus. It is very complicated system they follow, all with the aim of causing many divisions in the Indian Church.

I request Oriental Orthodox brothers to sincerely study this complicated matter, before making comments like 'Indian Church is excommunicated by SOC' etc. 

Paul




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Amdetsion
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« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2008, 05:40:24 PM »

Dear Amdetsion,

The canonical title of the Head of the Indian Church (Eastern Syrian Church), in the succession of Apostle Thomas is 'Catholicos of the East'.  In India, there is only one legally recognized Catholicos of the East, H.H. Didymus 1, head of the Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church (also known as Indian Orthodox Church).   It is a combination of two titles - Catholicos of the East and Malankara Metropolitan.

After having reached a compromise with the head of the Indian Church, i.e the Catholicos of the East and Malankara Metropolitan, the head of Jacobite faction (Metropolitan Thomas Mar Dionysius) was forced by some extremist Jacobite people to go to Patriarch in Damascus and get the title as Catholicos.  He was given the title 'Catholicos of India'. This is a  very new title created only in 2002, to satisfy the extremists. Earlier the Patriarch himself had made a decree to accept the Supreme Court decision and work for unity. These extremists are also supported by some of the SOC bishops, including the Bishop of the Eastern Diocese of SOC in USA. This is why in Eastern USA, OO concelebrations happen in a special way, which is not normal among Oriental Orthodox. How can the SOC bishop of Esstern USA who is speaks against the Indian Church (I have read in newspaper an address made by the bishop when he was invited by a Jacobite Church) and encouraging people of Jacobite group to fight against the Indian Church invite the Indian Church?

I must add that not all SOC bishops are against the Indian Church. This circumstance is special in the USA. In  Western USA a group of Syrians accepted the Indian Church. Recently in the Eastern USA also two congregations accepted the Indian Church.

Indian Supreme Court had requested both groups to unite in 2002 through a united council under the supervision of Supreme Court appointed counsel. The extremist section of the Jacobite group (headed by Bishop Thomas Mar Dionysius) boycotted the meeting. Another section accepted to remain united.  The group separated from the Indian Church is supported by Patriarch in Damascus and the Patriarch gives illegal ordination to Indian candidates without consulting with the Catholicos of the East. This is violation of both law and canon. Normally ordinations in the Indian Church are approved by the Synod headed by the Catholicos of the East, the canonical head.

Just like Abune Paulus is the legitimate Patriarch, there is only one legitimate 'Catholicos of the East' and 'Malankara Metropolitan' recognized in India.  It is a combination of two titles - Catholicos of the East and Malankara Metropolitan. Perhaps this is similar to Patriarch of Ethiopian Church is also the Echege of the See of St. Tekle Heimanot.  It is very traditional for us. Canonically Cathoilicos of the East is in the succession of Apostle Thomas, the Apostle of the East.  But the Jacobite extremists deny this. They claim Patriarch of Antioch is the supreme universal head and the Indian Church is a mere subordinate. This model is not recognized in the See of Catholicos of the East. They are trying to revive a temporary reduction that existed many years back, called the 'Mafrian'.

I do not know why rest of OO in Eastern Diocese of USA is not considering the canonicity of the title 'Catholicos of India', the new title instituted in 2002 against the legal 'Catholicos of the East'. 

Their Malankara Jacobite bishop in USA was not legally ordained. He was not recognized by the Synod of Catholicos of the East.   He was sent to Damascus to be ordained by the Catholicos of India, head of the Jacobite group.  The contradicting aspect is that the Malankara Diocese of Jacobite Church in USA is not under their head (Catholicos of India, head of Jacobite group) in India, but he is directly under Patriarch in Damascus. It is very complicated system they follow, all with the aim of causing many divisions in the Indian Church.

I request Oriental Orthodox brothers to sincerely study this complicated matter, before making comments like 'Indian Church is excommunicated by SOC' etc. 

Paul






Paul

I am deeply sorry about all of the things you are saying.

I do not understand all of the acronyms such as "SOC" and the like. Sorry!

The whole situatioon is extremely confusing. I had no idea that this much was out of order.

We can depend on Christ's return. He is going to put all of our petty disputes and concerns to death and raise up His undivided and Holy Church.

Let us pray that we will be ready for this.
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"ETHIOPIA shall soon stretch out her hands unto God".....Psalm 68:vs 31

"Are ye not as children of the ETHIOPIANS unto me, O children of Israel"?....Amos 9: vs 7
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