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Author Topic: Joan Chittister: Friend or Foe?  (Read 8416 times) Average Rating: 0
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lubeltri
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« on: April 10, 2008, 05:55:13 PM »

This thread was split from "Nun saves burning man with her habit":

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,15429.new.html#new

-YtterbiumAnalyst


Indeed, it's like night and day. The traditional nuns in their habits are generally much more joyful and full of humor than the bitter, aging feminist/progressive nuns in pant suits.

I met a 4'10" Iraqi nun named Sister Olga Yaqob a couple of weeks ago (she's here with our esteemed Capuchin Franciscan Cardinal Archbishop, Sean O'Malley). She has quite a story. She's involved with the campus ministry at Boston University. Everyone loves her, and the theological virtues flow from her with the force and volume of a tidal wave.



Compare her, for example, with noted heretic Sr. Joan Chittister, who has been carping and complaining about the Church's "reactionary" teachings for 40 years.

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« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2008, 10:51:43 PM »


Compare her, for example, with noted heretic Sr. Joan Chittister, who has been carping and complaining about the Church's "reactionary" teachings for 40 years.



Lubeltri - I'm sure glad you made mention that the photo was of a Sr. Joan.  Thought at first it was a guy.  Hope it's a bad screen capture shot you posted - that is one grumpy, sour looking "sister" or maybe its actor Hugh Grant (plus 15 years or so).
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« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2008, 12:23:02 AM »

Lubeltri - I'm sure glad you made mention that the photo was of a Sr. Joan.  Thought at first it was a guy.  Hope it's a bad screen capture shot you posted - that is one grumpy, sour looking "sister" or maybe its actor Hugh Grant (plus 15 years or so).

My thoughts exactly.  It's like the reverse of an old Aerosmith chart:  lady looks like a dude. Tongue
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« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2008, 12:38:35 AM »

It's biblical testimony women came from adams Rib......right there is the proof also some woman do grow a mustache and beard when they get older so they have to shave like the guys............stashko/stanislav...............
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« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2008, 12:44:22 AM »

Lubeltri - I'm sure glad you made mention that the photo was of a Sr. Joan.  Thought at first it was a guy.  Hope it's a bad screen capture shot you posted - that is one grumpy, sour looking "sister" or maybe its actor Hugh Grant (plus 15 years or so).

So did you expect her to age to look like some supermodel?

Can't say I know anything about her...but based on Lubeltri comments, she sounds like the kind of person we need more of in the Church.
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« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2008, 12:59:47 AM »

but based on Lubeltri comments, she sounds like the kind of person we need more of in the Church.
More noted heretics? 
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« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2008, 01:24:57 AM »

Compare her, for example, with noted heretic Sr. Joan Chittister,
Why must we compare them? Who are we to judge between them?
And what can we tell from photographs you post on the internet anyway? Even God does not judge by appearances (see Galatians 2:6).
We have a Judge Who will come to judge all one day. Let's leave it to Him, and let Him surprise us with His Dispassionate Judgement.
Discerning correct dogma is one thing- judging individuals is quite another.
And remember, He already has told us what He will ask us on That Day. He will not ask us how many prayers we offered or how many prostrations we made, or how we dressed, or even which church we attended.
He will ask us:
"Did you feed Me when I was hungry? Did you clothe Me when I was naked? Did you visit Me when I was sick or in prison?....(and, perhaps He will also ask: 'Did you risk your life to put me out when I was on fire?  Smiley)....." in other words: "How much did you love?".
He will not ask us: "Show me who you were better than." nor: "Show me for whom you are grateful that you are not like them". In fact, He told a story about this:
"Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself,
‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’
But the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.” (Luke 18:10-14)

Note how the Pharisee prays "with himself". His prayers are for his own ears.

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« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2008, 07:44:34 AM »

Why must we compare them? Who are we to judge between them?
And what can we tell from photographs you post on the internet anyway? Even God does not judge by appearances (see Galatians 2:6).
We have a Judge Who will come to judge all one day. Let's leave it to Him, and let Him surprise us with His Dispassionate Judgement.
Discerning correct dogma is one thing- judging individuals is quite another.
And remember, He already has told us what He will ask us on That Day. He will not ask us how many prayers we offered or how many prostrations we made, or how we dressed, or even which church we attended.
He will ask us:
"Did you feed Me when I was hungry? Did you clothe Me when I was naked? Did you visit Me when I was sick or in prison?....(and, perhaps He will also ask: 'Did you risk your life to put me out when I was on fire?  Smiley)....." in other words: "How much did you love?".
He will not ask us: "Show me who you were better than." nor: "Show me for whom you are grateful that you are not like them". In fact, He told a story about this:
"Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself,
‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’
But the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.” (Luke 18:10-14)

Note how the Pharisee prays "with himself". His prayers are for his own ears.

^^ Bravo, George!
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« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2008, 10:16:44 AM »

More noted heretics? 

Seeing how she has not been excommunicated, she can hardly be called a heretic. And the kind of people needed in the Church are those who have not been and will not be excommunicated, but people that those like Lubeltri feel they needs to take it upon themselves to personally anathematize.

Plus, having read a bit about her (I figured she was worth taking note of considering Lubeltri reaction to her), she is EXACTLY the kind of person the Church needs...she is what the Church must become if it is to even survive.
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« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2008, 10:17:47 AM »

Well, being of 100% Germanic heritage, I don't need to be reminded that most of the women in my family grow better beards and mustaches than the guys.  I will pay for my irreverence and lack of charity towards Sr. Joan with painful and torturous waxing sessions.  Ouch!
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« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2008, 10:32:26 AM »

Doesn't she resemble that jr character in the dynasty series that was on tv a while back....like she could be his twin sister...can't remember the name of the actor......stashko/stanislav..........SmileyCentral.com" border="0
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« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2008, 10:49:56 AM »

Sr. Joan Chittister is an enemy of the Church, and that has nothing to do with her looks (I posted that picture because I liked the EWTN parody: Progressive Word Television Network: Global Heterodox Network). Here's a normal photo of her:


Though you imagine she probably looks like this when you see the tone of her bitter columns and speeches:


This is the woman who called the election of Pope Benedict XVI an "ecclesiastical tsunami." This is the woman who, faced with instructions from Rome NOT to attend a woman's ordination conference in Dublin, went ahead anyway (and participated in a "Eucharist" with the other women).

Actually, GiC, her 40-year record of heresy is clear, and if she is a heretic with full knowledge and deliberate consent, she has incurred excommunication latae sententiae.


-----------

Getting back to the original topic, orthodox Catholic women religious wear their habits because they don't see them as symbols of oppression. They don't see themselves as oppressed but liberated by the splendor of truth and a sense of mission that is in line with the Christ and the Church's Great Commission. They have a Catholic identity rather than a feminist or a new age one.
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« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2008, 11:27:10 AM »

Lubeltri - I don't mean to re-direct the thread, but if she is such a radical that openly and aggresively rejects the teachings of the Church (and I do agree that supporting women's ordination by attending the "rite" is radical and heretical), what more does it take to kick her out?  If she doesn't like the menu, she can open up her own restaurant.  There must be a place for her among the 25,000 or so schismatic groups.  This business of self-excommunication by one's actions is all very well and good in theory, but it doesn't have the same effect as physically banning someone from church property, forums, institutions.   I will now be prepared for GiC's assault.  Smiley
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« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2008, 11:34:21 AM »

Lubeltri - I don't mean to re-direct the thread, but if she is such a radical that openly and aggresively rejects the teachings of the Church (and I do agree that supporting women's ordination by attending the "rite" is radical and heretical), what more does it take to kick her out?  If she doesn't like the menu, she can open up her own restaurant.  There must be a place for her among the 25,000 or so schismatic groups.  This business of self-excommunication by one's actions is all very well and good in theory, but it doesn't have the same effect as physically banning someone from church property, forums, institutions.   I will now be prepared for GiC's assault.  Smiley

Well, bishops do routinely bar her from speaking on diocesan property. However, her aging and shrinking Benedictine community is way out in left field (she was previously prioress for 12 years---what a surprise) and lets her do what she wants.

I agree with you, Tina---if you've separated yourself from the Church in mind and heart, be consistent and direct your feet to follow. She would be much more tolerable if she was just another heterodox pseudo-Christian---but to claim the Catholic mantle makes her an enemy of the Faith of the worst kind---a wolf in sheep's clothing.
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« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2008, 12:29:56 PM »

Plus, having read a bit about her (I figured she was worth taking note of considering Lubeltri reaction to her), she is EXACTLY the kind of person the Church needs

Of course, GiC, you are totally welcome to take her off our hands...  Wink

Fr. John Trigilio would agree: "If recalcitrant miscreants like Chittister don't like the truth, they can deny it but do so OUTSIDE the Church. At least Martin Luther, John Calvin, Zwingli and Cranmer had the decency to leave the Roman Catholic Church when they disavowed her doctrines and disciplines. Radical feminists who spew their heretical rantings can start their own church and religion and leave ours."
http://blackbiretta.blogspot.com/2005/04/queen-of-dissent.html
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« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2008, 12:40:48 PM »

What is the debate here? Although some unkind posts were placed & the tone inappropriate, any common sense Roman Catholic should and has the right to identify a valid heretic & rebuke accordingly.
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« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2008, 04:54:09 PM »

Seeing how she has not been excommunicated, she can hardly be called a heretic. And the kind of people needed in the Church are those who have not been and will not be excommunicated, but people that those like Lubeltri feel they needs to take it upon themselves to personally anathematize.

One could argue that since she is a Roman Catholic, Ipso facto, she is a heretic anyway. But even beyond that, from the life of St Hypatius we see:

Quote
Nestorius also ordered him to reprimand Hypatius. For Nestorius was still powerful in the city. Bishop Eulalius spoke this to Hypatius: “Why have you erased his name without understanding what the consequence of it would be?” Saint Hypatius replied, “From the time that I learned that he said unrighteous things about the Lord, I have no longer been in communion with him and I do not commemorate his name; for he is not a bishop.

Plus, having read a bit about her (I figured she was worth taking note of considering Lubeltri reaction to her), she is EXACTLY the kind of person the Church needs...she is what the Church must become if it is to even survive.

The Western Church is dying after 40 years of control by people like that. How can you think she is going to save anything? At any rate, if "that" is Christianity, I'd rather it dried up and died anyway.
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« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2008, 08:08:31 PM »

Lubeltri - I don't mean to re-direct the thread, but if she is such a radical that openly and aggresively rejects the teachings of the Church (and I do agree that supporting women's ordination by attending the "rite" is radical and heretical),

Well, we probably disagree here, but we can discuss that elsewhere...as, indeed, it has been discussed at great length elsewhere.

Quote
what more does it take to kick her out?  If she doesn't like the menu, she can open up her own restaurant.  There must be a place for her among the 25,000 or so schismatic groups.  This business of self-excommunication by one's actions is all very well and good in theory, but it doesn't have the same effect as physically banning someone from church property, forums, institutions.   I will now be prepared for GiC's assault.  Smiley

Which is essentially my point...the Vatican has obviously not viewed her as so great a heretic as to be worthy of a formal anathema. If no such decree is to be found, why should I take the negative opinions about her from the subjects of Rome seriously?

I agree with you, Tina---if you've separated yourself from the Church in mind and heart, be consistent and direct your feet to follow. She would be much more tolerable if she was just another heterodox pseudo-Christian---but to claim the Catholic mantle makes her an enemy of the Faith of the worst kind---a wolf in sheep's clothing.

And yet, Rome has no problem with her remaining within the Church while espressing these views...
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« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2008, 08:10:42 PM »

One could argue that since she is a Roman Catholic, Ipso facto, she is a heretic anyway. But even beyond that, from the life of St Hypatius we see:

Well, we could, but I'm an ecumenist, remember? Wink

Quote
The Western Church is dying after 40 years of control by people like that. How can you think she is going to save anything? At any rate, if "that" is Christianity, I'd rather it dried up and died anyway.

Dying? It seems Rome has been growing while our numbers our diminishing. Perhaps it's time to usher in a new era of Christianity.
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« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2008, 08:18:31 PM »

Well, being of 100% Germanic heritage, I don't need to be reminded that most of the women in my family grow better beards and mustaches than the guys.  I will pay for my irreverence and lack of charity towards Sr. Joan with painful and torturous waxing sessions.  Ouch!

^^ laugh

Tina,

From your lips to God's ears!  laugh
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« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2008, 09:08:28 PM »

Well, we could, but I'm an ecumenist, remember? Wink

Dying? It seems Rome has been growing while our numbers our diminishing. Perhaps it's time to usher in a new era of Christianity.

It's growing in Africa and Asia in places with traditional bishops.

In Europe and N America it is loosing more people than convert to it.

At least that is every statistic I have seen. If I am wrong, please show me something different.
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« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2008, 11:37:45 PM »

I don't know bout that, there is a dozen or so of us that prefer the '62 where I live, and at my old parish down the street they had 1400 or so at the 10:30 Easter Mass alone...

Los Angeles belongs to those of the new order...
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« Reply #22 on: April 12, 2008, 01:21:07 AM »

Well, being of 100% Germanic heritage, I don't need to be reminded that most of the women in my family grow better beards and mustaches than the guys.  I will pay for my irreverence and lack of charity towards Sr. Joan with painful and torturous waxing sessions.  Ouch!

Never wax or pluck.  Get electrolysis.
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« Reply #23 on: April 12, 2008, 11:34:45 AM »

I don't know bout that, there is a dozen or so of us that prefer the '62 where I live, and at my old parish down the street they had 1400 or so at the 10:30 Easter Mass alone...

Los Angeles belongs to those of the new order...

That's only because it is all that His Eminence Roger Dodger will allow them.
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« Reply #24 on: April 12, 2008, 02:49:07 PM »

Why must we compare them?

Comparison are often judgmental, but not always. Sometimes they can make a good point or illustration. Indeed, the parable you cited is a comparison; so is Matthew 21:28-3.

How about this comparison:
- one person believes that Joan Chittister is a heretic
- another person believes that anyone who says "the Holy Spirit proceeds eternally from the Father and the Son" is a worshipper of a false God
Which of these two opinions is more judgmental?
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« Reply #25 on: April 12, 2008, 03:03:14 PM »

Comparison are often judgmental, but not always. Sometimes they can make a good point or illustration. Indeed, the parable you cited is a comparison; so is Matthew 21:28-3.

How about this comparison:
- one person believes that Joan Chittister is a heretic
- another person believes that anyone who says "the Holy Spirit proceeds eternally from the Father and the Son" is a worshipper of a false God
Which of these two opinions is more judgmental?

Considering that only one of these two statements actually addresses high theology (at least, as far as I know Sr. Chittister hasn't contradicted the dogmatic statements regarding the Structure of the Trinity or the philosophical interaction between the Natures of Christ), while both pretend to, I would have to say that the second statement is an academic opinion while the first is simply an ad hominem. Liberalism is not heresy, though some reactionaries may want to pretend it is, ditheism or sabellianism, on the other hand, are. The former is merely a political/social opinion, the latter a contradiction in the philosophical structures that are the essence of Christianity.

Also, in the first statement, one is picking out a particular person and personally condemning her. Who can know her heart, her convictions, or her faith save God alone? In the second statement, on the other hand, one is simply making an objective philosophical analysis in the context of academic theology. The second statement is that this particular philosophical statement (the filioque) logically leads to a philosophical construction of a deity that is different than the one defined by our philosophical constructions and, therefore, logically a different deity. Now, as to which deity is 'the One True God(c)' and which deity is a 'false god', well, it's a pretty silly argument, but it's directed at philosophical constructions of various deities rather than actual people.
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« Reply #26 on: April 12, 2008, 03:07:43 PM »

. . . that is one grumpy, sour looking "sister" or maybe its actor Hugh Grant (plus 15 years or so).

 laugh
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« Reply #27 on: April 12, 2008, 04:59:13 PM »

Quote
Plus, having read a bit about her (I figured she was worth taking note of considering Lubeltri reaction to her), she is EXACTLY the kind of person the Church needs...she is what the Church must become if it is to even survive.



I highly doubt that. Anyone can look at the Anglican/Episcopal church to see this isn't true. The Anglican/Episcopal archbishop Shelby Spong might agree with you, but Anglicanism(in the western World) is dying fast.


When secular humanisn is gone......EO will still be around.








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« Reply #28 on: April 12, 2008, 07:19:22 PM »

For some reason, I am finding this thread rather humorous! Indeed, quite a difference between the joyful, radiant, youthful, traditionally clad Sister Olga and the cranky,liberated modernistic Sister Joan! However, I'm sure there've been plenty of traditionally clad cranky older nuns around as well-in fact I've seen them walking around in my very town! Wink (don't get me wrong-I'm all for joyful, traditional monastics!)
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« Reply #29 on: April 12, 2008, 08:33:06 PM »

For some reason, I am finding this thread rather humorous! Indeed, quite a difference between the joyful, radiant, youthful, traditionally clad Sister Olga and the cranky,liberated modernistic Sister Joan!

Smiley

However, I'm sure there've been plenty of traditionally clad cranky older nuns around as well-in fact I've seen them walking around in my very town! Wink (don't get me wrong-I'm all for joyful, traditional monastics!)

Perhaps that's one way to tell the traditional nuns from the traditionalist.


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« Reply #30 on: April 12, 2008, 08:34:01 PM »



I highly doubt that. Anyone can look at the Anglican/Episcopal church to see this isn't true. The Anglican/Episcopal archbishop Shelby Spong might agree with you, but Anglicanism(in the western World) is dying fast.


When secular humanisn is gone......EO will still be around.
JNORM888

But the real question is will we be worth taking note of or kinda like the FLDS? It's not enough to survive, it's also imporant to remain mainstream.
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« Reply #31 on: April 17, 2008, 01:21:02 PM »



I highly doubt that. Anyone can look at the Anglican/Episcopal church to see this isn't true. The Anglican/Episcopal archbishop Shelby Spong might agree with you, but Anglicanism(in the western World) is dying fast.
JNORM888

Meaning no offense, but there is alot more to the Anglican Communion and the Episcopal Church the the Retired Bishop Spong.   

And we're not dead yet.

 Undecided

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« Reply #32 on: April 17, 2008, 02:39:37 PM »

Meaning no offense, but there is alot more to the Anglican Communion and the Episcopal Church the the Retired Bishop Spong.   

And we're not dead yet.

 Undecided

Ebor

Ebor! Great to see you. Happy Easter!
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« Reply #33 on: April 17, 2008, 03:10:22 PM »

Ebor! Great to see you. Happy Easter!

And the same to you, Lubeltri. The Lord is Risen.

 Smiley

Ebor
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« Reply #34 on: April 17, 2008, 03:36:18 PM »

And I thought the gardener had retired to a quiet bed and breakfast...
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« Reply #35 on: April 17, 2008, 04:27:30 PM »

Which is essentially my point...the Vatican has obviously not viewed her as so great a heretic as to be worthy of a formal anathema. If no such decree is to be found, why should I take the negative opinions about her from the subjects of Rome seriously?

I would disagree with you GiC.  I do not see Rome as being effective at all at policing its own.  The system has clergy, bishops, monastics, at all levels who are preaching, teaching and promoting heresy, alternative lifestyles, and liberation theology and do you ever hear of anyone being formally de-frocked and excommunicated.  It's the same principal as disciplining children.  If I keep saying "don't do that sweety" and fail to follow it up with real discipline if they continue, how effective am I? 

The philosophy ought to be get tough, and start chopping away the dead wood and weeds. 
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« Reply #36 on: April 17, 2008, 04:42:06 PM »

And I thought the gardener had retired to a quiet bed and breakfast...

gardener?  did I miss something or am I being thick?  Smiley
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« Reply #37 on: April 17, 2008, 04:51:48 PM »

I would disagree with you GiC.  I do not see Rome as being effective at all at policing its own.  The system has clergy, bishops, monastics, at all levels who are preaching, teaching and promoting heresy, alternative lifestyles, and liberation theology and do you ever hear of anyone being formally de-frocked and excommunicated.  It's the same principal as disciplining children.  If I keep saying "don't do that sweety" and fail to follow it up with real discipline if they continue, how effective am I? 

The philosophy ought to be get tough, and start chopping away the dead wood and weeds. 

I understand your points, TinaG, being a parent myself.  Otoh, these are real human beings rather then 'dead wood and weeds'. And it might be that some of their views, objections or concerns are of value, though on a case-by-case basis.   Also, though I do not know much about Sr. Joan Chittister, I have read a number of essays and books by nuns and former nuns and some of them address the "whys" and situations behind such things as changing from the old habits and old circumstances.  One wonders what Sr. Joan's story/experiences are. 

As a side note, though, judging a person on her/his looks in selected photos doesn't seem to me to be charitable or fair.  Anyone might be caught in an ummm "unfortunate" angle or expression, it seems to me, and how often are older men put to ridicule for their outward appearance...

With respect,

Ebor
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« Reply #38 on: April 17, 2008, 06:09:07 PM »

Not thick, you are just abit fuzzy > > > old avatar

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« Reply #39 on: April 17, 2008, 06:26:00 PM »

Not thick, you are just abit fuzzy > > > old avatar



ah, of course, my old Samwise avatar.  (I wish I could have that back again.  ah, well.  Smiley )

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« Reply #40 on: April 17, 2008, 08:19:02 PM »

ah, of course, my old Samwise avatar.  (I wish I could have that back again.  ah, well.  Smiley )

So do I, and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for us to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.
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« Reply #41 on: April 17, 2008, 09:14:34 PM »

So do I, and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for us to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.

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« Reply #42 on: April 17, 2008, 09:26:31 PM »

A quote of Gandalf...

Mordor is a reality...
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« Reply #43 on: April 17, 2008, 11:50:21 PM »

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At any rate, if "that" is Christianity, I'd rather it dried up and died anyway.

Anastasios, if that was Christianity, I'd be packing it up for the desert.... Wink

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Otoh, these are real human beings rather then 'dead wood and weeds'

Well said, Ebor. The only one who really gets to decided who is a dead wood or a dead weed is Jesus Christ, and He'll certainly know His own when the time comes for it. In the meantime, the authority of the faithful need to put Softclaws on heretical people like this lady: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQvy8X-NbZw
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« Reply #44 on: April 18, 2008, 12:02:52 AM »

It's not enough to survive, it's also imporant to remain mainstream.

Since when was Orthodoxy mainstream??
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