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Question: Which of these prayers do you pray the most and why?
The Jesus Prayer because...
Both
The Rosary because...
Other

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Author Topic: The Jesus Prayer or the Rosary?  (Read 6931 times) Average Rating: 0
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Romaios
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« Reply #90 on: April 18, 2013, 03:10:48 PM »

It's not the Jesus prayer, it's the repeating of it over and over, back to back, thinking it will "do something more" than saying it once.

O, it does a lot more! It's selling "all that you have" (your thoughts) for the one pearl of great price:

Quote from: Matthew 13
The kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; which when a man has found, he hides, and for joy thereof goes and sells all that he has, and buys that field.

Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking fine pearls: when he had found one pearl of great price, he went and sold all that he had, and bought it.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2013, 03:20:59 PM by Romaios » Logged
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« Reply #91 on: April 18, 2013, 03:11:33 PM »

By asking him once, we have shown our need for God.

So it's just following procedure?

Not exactly.   "Ask seek knock".   But once the door is opened, don't keep knocking thinking it's going to be better somehow.

What's going to get better?  If I pray for impossible things to become possible, is that a vain and repetitive prayer?  Where does letting go come into the picture?
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« Reply #92 on: April 18, 2013, 03:26:08 PM »

Defining vain does not mean you've shown how repetitious prayer is vain. The premise is that it won't accomplish anything, thus being "empty," but prayer of the heart has definitively, observably, verifiably been shown to accomplish much (what was that about fervent prayer?), both spiritual and physical.

You are on the wrong side of history, scripture, and tradition on this one, Jesusisiam.
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« Reply #93 on: April 18, 2013, 03:29:16 PM »

Actually, I've read somewhere that "vain repetition" was a deliberate subtle mistranslation of the Greek by the (anti-Catholic)Protestant translaters of the KJV.  The real gist of the meaning seems to be more along the lines of "babbling" from what I understand.  Reminds me more of (well-meaning) protestants who like to pray out loud in the presence of others and tend to drag it on and on.
I'll try to find the link.
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« Reply #94 on: April 18, 2013, 03:39:16 PM »

Producing no result; useless: "a vain attempt to sleep".

If the Jesus prayer produced "no result" for me, I should wonder why. Is it the prayer or is it me?

You chose the easy way out of this "dilemma".  Sad  



Yes, indeed.

This also begs the question of what "result" one is expecting.
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« Reply #95 on: April 18, 2013, 03:46:08 PM »

Actually, I've read somewhere that "vain repetition" was a deliberate subtle mistranslation of the Greek by the (anti-Catholic)Protestant translaters of the KJV.  The real gist of the meaning seems to be more along the lines of "babbling" from what I understand.  Reminds me more of (well-meaning) protestants who like to pray out loud in the presence of others and tend to drag it on and on.
I'll try to find the link.

Welcome to the forum, PorphyriosK!

What you say reminds me of what I think I remember the Orthodox priest telling us, that I mentioned above.  Ha!  How's that for vague  Cool?
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« Reply #96 on: April 18, 2013, 03:46:52 PM »

By your definition, we could just say the Jesus Prayer once in our life and that would be it.

*kuch* sinner's prayer *kuch*
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« Reply #97 on: April 18, 2013, 03:48:55 PM »

100x prayer ropes, 3x a day.... no not vain.   Don't skip a knot or bead.

I guess people think God is dumb and doesn't know.  Beats me.

Quote from: St. John of the Ladder
If everything depends on habit, and follows upon it, then still more do the virtues depend on habit, for they have God as their great collaborator.

Practice produces habit, and perseverance grows into a feeling of the heart; and what is done with an ingrained feeling of the heart is not easily eradicated.
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« Reply #98 on: April 18, 2013, 04:16:20 PM »

True prayer is standing before God with our minds in our hearts. The method we use to get there is secondary.
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« Reply #99 on: April 18, 2013, 04:20:27 PM »

By your definition, we could just say the Jesus Prayer once in our life and that would be it.

*kuch* sinner's prayer *kuch*

Yes, I know. Maybe I expressed myself in a bad way. What I meant was that he made it sound as if saying a prayer more than one time is vain
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« Reply #100 on: April 18, 2013, 04:21:34 PM »

Actually, I've read somewhere that "vain repetition" was a deliberate subtle mistranslation of the Greek by the (anti-Catholic)Protestant translaters of the KJV.  The real gist of the meaning seems to be more along the lines of "babbling" from what I understand.  Reminds me more of (well-meaning) protestants who like to pray out loud in the presence of others and tend to drag it on and on.
I'll try to find the link.

The word used, battalogein, was invented by the Evangelist. It wasn't used before that.
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« Reply #101 on: April 18, 2013, 04:43:27 PM »

More from the Ladder of St. John on prayer:

Quote from: Step 28: On holy and blessed prayer, mother of virtues, and on the attitude of mind and body in prayer.
Let your prayer be completely simple. For both the publican and the prodigal son were reconciled to God by a single phrase.

Do not be over-sophisticated in the words you use when praying, because the simple and unadorned lisping of children has often won the heart of their heavenly Father.

Do not attempt to talk much when you pray lest your mind be distracted in searching for words. One word of the publican propitiated God, and one cry of faith saved the thief. Loquacity in prayer often distracts the mind and leads to phantasy, whereas brevity makes for concentration.

A great practiser of high and perfect prayer says: ‘I would rather speak five words with my understanding,’ and so on. But such prayer is foreign to infant souls. Therefore, imperfect as we are, we need not only quality but a considerable time for our prayer, because the latter paves the way for the former. For it is said: ‘Giving pure prayer to him who prays resolutely, even though sordidly and laboriously.’

What is obtained by frequent and prolonged prayer is lasting.

Do not say, after spending a long time at prayer, that nothing has been gained; for you have already gained something. And what higher good is there than to cling to the Lord and persevere in unceasing union with Him?


Ask with tears, seek with obedience, knock with patience. For thus he who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.

Until we have acquired genuine prayer we are like people teaching children to begin to walk.

Try to lift up, or rather, to shut off your thought within the words of your prayer, and if in its infant state it wearies and falls, lift it up again. Instability is natural to the mind, but God is powerful to establish everything. If you persevere indefatigably in this labour, He who sets the bounds to the sea of the mind will visit you too, and during your prayer will say to the waves: Thus far shalt thou come and no further. Spirit cannot be bound; but where the Creator of the spirit is, everything obeys.
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« Reply #102 on: April 18, 2013, 05:07:52 PM »

It's actually "not all over the bible".

There were prayers said "3 times" which represent the trinity.  Including "holy holy holy"...

Quote from: 1 Kings 18:41-45
Elijah went up to the top of Carmel; then he bowed down on the ground, and put his face between his knees, and said to his servant, “Go up now, look toward the sea.” So he went up and looked, and said, “There is nothing.” And seven times he said, “Go again.” Then it came to pass the seventh time, that he said, “There is a cloud, as small as a man’s hand, rising out of the sea!”

Quote from: 2 Kings 5:9-14
Naaman came with his horses and chariots, and halted at the entrance of Elisha’s house. Elisha sent a messenger to him, saying, “Go, wash in the Jordan seven times, and your flesh shall be restored and you shall be clean.” But Naaman became angry and went away, saying, “I thought that for me he would surely come out, and stand and call on the name of the Lord his God, and would wave his hand over the spot, and cure the leprosy! Are not Abana and Pharpar, the rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? Could I not wash in them, and be clean?” He turned and went away in a rage. But his servants approached and said to him, “Father, if the prophet had commanded you to do something difficult, would you not have done it? How much more, when all he said to you was, ‘Wash, and be clean’?” So he went down and immersed himself seven times in the Jordan, according to the word of the man of God; his flesh was restored like the flesh of a young boy, and he was clean.
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Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
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« Reply #103 on: April 18, 2013, 05:22:25 PM »

Actually, I've read somewhere that "vain repetition" was a deliberate subtle mistranslation of the Greek by the (anti-Catholic)Protestant translaters of the KJV.  The real gist of the meaning seems to be more along the lines of "babbling" from what I understand.  Reminds me more of (well-meaning) protestants who like to pray out loud in the presence of others and tend to drag it on and on.
I'll try to find the link.

I found "babbling like pagans" in the New International Version. Other phrasings:
heap up empty phrases: ESV and RSV
speak not much: Douay-Rheims
talk on and on: Contemporary English
flood of empty words: Common English Bible

It is clear to me that, in the context of the several translations, "vain repetitions" could refer as much to the uselessness of the content of the prayer as to its repetition. Indeed, The Jesus Prayer, said once or ad infinitum does not fall under this saying of the Lord simply because it is the opposite of "empty words, "babbling" or "empty phrases." Also, one does not "speak" the Jesus Prayer and it is not "talk" as we commonly understand such.
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« Reply #104 on: April 18, 2013, 05:41:57 PM »

Let me tell you a story.

In 2005, I was changing lanes on I-75 when I skidded on a giant mass of water (there were thunderstorms just before that, and much of the road was periodically blocked by flood patches). The car flipped over three times, and I wound up on the other side of the highway.

I woke up to see the myriad cracks in the front windshield and to wonder why all these police officers and firefighters were screaming at me to get out of the car. I started jibbering, "God help me. God help me. Oh, God." I did that many, many times before I gripped hold of myself enough to actually move and open the door.

Do you think God heard me? Do you think those were vain words, because I said the same thing several times?

Also, to put a point on it, any time you use any words, in any language, you are using a pre-established term, that someone somewhere has already used. Any time you say anything, unless you are saying gibberish like "bleeg smarb flonder shpoo," that is a repetition. I could go all Bill Bryson or George Carlin on you, but you can do Google searches yourself. Or head to the library. Lots of books, with repeated words in there.

The dictionary is the same bunch of words, over and over again, every time I read it.

Please, Yesh, learn what adjectives and modifiers and qualifiers are. Learn how to parse a sentence. Or else you are making the Scriptures a liar. And if I have to pick who's lying, I know it's not the Holy Spirit.
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« Reply #105 on: April 18, 2013, 05:46:02 PM »

"βατταλογέω" is an interesting word there, and it's exact meaning is unsure, due to the "βαττος" half of it. Different linguists have different theories, but ultimately they end up functionally meaning the same thing, which is prattling or babbling. Everyone essentially agrees that it refers to words spoken without care, attention or purpose.

I'd think the Fathers would, obviously, agree with this as many of them in their works chide the practice of prayer with heartfelt love and repentance. The "repetition" part, such as in the King James, seems to be more of an implication to the word than a direct meaning. You could probably just as easily translate this "useless speech" as you can "vain repetition."
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« Reply #106 on: April 18, 2013, 05:58:39 PM »

Quote from: Arndt, Danker & Bauer, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature
βατταλογέω (βαττολογέω) 1 aor. subj. βατταλογήσω onomatopoetic word; to speak in a way that images the kind of speech pattern of one who stammers, use the same words again and again, speak without thinking (explained by πολυλογία) Mt 6:7; Lk 11:2. Except for writers dependent on the NT the word has been found only in Vita Aesopi W 109, where Perry notes the v.l. βατολογέω for βαττολογέω (it is missing in the corresponding place ed. Eberhard I c. 26 p. 289, 9. But Vita Aesopi G 50 P. has the noun βαττολογία=foolish talk, but in a different context), and in Simplicius (c. 530 a.d.), Commentarium in Epictetum p. 91, 23 in the spelling βαττολογέω=‘prate’. It is perhaps a hybrid form, rendering Aramaic אמר בטלהא=‘talk idly’.

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