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Question: Which of these prayers do you pray the most and why?
The Jesus Prayer because...
Both
The Rosary because...
Other

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Author Topic: The Jesus Prayer or the Rosary?  (Read 5515 times) Average Rating: 0
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Alveus Lacuna
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« Reply #45 on: April 17, 2013, 11:53:38 PM »

I like the Jesus prayer, IF SAID ONCE.

I believe whole heartedly that God meant "Do not pray in vain repetitions".  

Every now and then, I'll say the prayer if I need God and don't know what else to say.

Otherwise, I think the ropes & rosary work people into trances of sorts, repeating the same prayer over and over and over again... Just as God told them NOT to.  I believe God is capable of hearing the prayer if said once, and I believe that men only fool themselves thinking that saying it X amount of times, is going to bring them closer to God - when really they are just "working themselves up".

Saying a prayer once, with a true and meaningful heart, is how to do it.

Yeah, I think Jesus taught this because God the Father got so annoyed by the angels saying Holy, Holy, Holy, Holy, Holy, Holy, etc. on and on around the throne. Someone had to put a stop to it.

The funny Orthodox response.

Yeah, but Jesus nonetheless, TAUGHT IT.

I've prayed the Jesus prayer, I've seen the prayer ropes, I've seen people do it.  It is vain & repetitious.  Sorry.

Don't you mean Yeshua?

Lord have mercy (x40).
« Last Edit: April 17, 2013, 11:54:54 PM by Alveus Lacuna » Logged
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« Reply #46 on: April 18, 2013, 01:40:46 AM »

I like the Jesus prayer, IF SAID ONCE.

I believe whole heartedly that God meant "Do not pray in vain repetitions".   

Every now and then, I'll say the prayer if I need God and don't know what else to say.

Otherwise, I think the ropes & rosary work people into trances of sorts, repeating the same prayer over and over and over again... Just as God told them NOT to.  I believe God is capable of hearing the prayer if said once, and I believe that men only fool themselves thinking that saying it X amount of times, is going to bring them closer to God - when really they are just "working themselves up".

Saying a prayer once, with a true and meaningful heart, is how to do it.

Yeah, I think Jesus taught this because God the Father got so annoyed by the angels saying Holy, Holy, Holy, Holy, Holy, Holy, etc. on and on around the throne. Someone had to put a stop to it.

The funny Orthodox response.

Yeah, but Jesus nonetheless, TAUGHT IT.

And you misunderstand it.

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« Reply #47 on: April 18, 2013, 01:47:42 AM »

"When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.

And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words. So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him."

YeshuaisIam, why did Jesus identify meaningless repetition with the Gentiles, and not the hypocrites (Pharisees)? The Pharisees repeated prayers.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2013, 01:48:20 AM by NicholasMyra » Logged

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« Reply #48 on: April 18, 2013, 02:07:55 AM »

I like the Jesus prayer, IF SAID ONCE.

I believe whole heartedly that God meant "Do not pray in vain repetitions".   
...Saying a prayer once, with a true and meaningful heart, is how to do it.
I don't believe you.
How many times do you say "Lord have mercy" at Divine Liturgy? How many times do you cross yourself at liturgy saying Father, Son and Holy Spirit?
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« Reply #49 on: April 18, 2013, 02:11:43 AM »

I like the Jesus prayer, IF SAID ONCE.

I believe whole heartedly that God meant "Do not pray in vain repetitions".   
...Saying a prayer once, with a true and meaningful heart, is how to do it.
I don't believe you.
How many times do you say "Lord have mercy" at Divine Liturgy? How many times do you cross yourself at liturgy saying Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

Stanley, many of yeshuaisiam's views do not concur with Orthodox teachings.
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« Reply #50 on: April 18, 2013, 03:25:05 AM »

I like the Jesus prayer, IF SAID ONCE.

I believe whole heartedly that God meant "Do not pray in vain repetitions".   

Every now and then, I'll say the prayer if I need God and don't know what else to say.

Otherwise, I think the ropes & rosary work people into trances of sorts, repeating the same prayer over and over and over again... Just as God told them NOT to.  I believe God is capable of hearing the prayer if said once, and I believe that men only fool themselves thinking that saying it X amount of times, is going to bring them closer to God - when really they are just "working themselves up".

Saying a prayer once, with a true and meaningful heart, is how to do it.

Quote from: Lukas 11:5-13 OJB
5 And Rebbe Melech HaMoshiach said to them, Who among you will have a chaver and will come to him at chatzot halailah (midnight), and say to him, Chaver, lend me shalosh kikrot (loaves);

6 Because a chaver of mine has come from a journey to me and I have nothing to set before him;

7 And from inside he shall reply, saying, Do not bother me; the delet has already been shut, and my yeladim and I are already in bed; I cannot get up and give to you anything.

8 I say to you, even if he will not get up and give him anything, because he is his chaver, at least because of his keseder (constantly) persistent importunity he will get up and give to him as much as he needs.

9 And I tell you [when you daven], ask, and it shall be given to you; seek and you shall find; knock and it shall be opened to you.

10 For everyone asking receives; and he who is seeking, finds; and to the one knocking, it shall be opened.

11 And what Abba among you is there who, if his ben asks for a dag (fish), instead of a dag (fish) will give to him a nachash (snake)?

12 Or if the ben will ask for a beytzah (egg), will the av give him an akrav (scorpion)?

13 If, therefore, you, though you are ra’im (evil ones), have da’as (knowledge) of how to give matanot tovot (good gifts) to your yeladim, how much more will HaAv shbaShomayim give the Ruach Hakodesh to the ones asking him.
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« Reply #51 on: April 18, 2013, 04:22:49 AM »

The Jesus Prayer, because I am Orthodox not Roman Catholic.

I don't have anything against the Rosary Prayer, I just have never used it and have never felt the need.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2013, 04:25:12 AM by Kerdy » Logged
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« Reply #52 on: April 18, 2013, 05:27:34 AM »

Kerdy: I can share some experience as I was a RC for 2 1/2 years. (that was before I realized that home was not home, but the wrong house).
The rosary works for meditation and thinking-reflecting. But for me it didn`t work as a prayer from the heart.

Metropolitan Kallistos Ware says it so well in his book The Orthodox Way: the prayer must come from the heart. Just pray and do not think.
It was a needed eyeopener for me.
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« Reply #53 on: April 18, 2013, 01:48:14 PM »

Cyrillic slayed it.
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« Reply #54 on: April 18, 2013, 01:58:35 PM »

I like the Jesus prayer, IF SAID ONCE.

I believe whole heartedly that God meant "Do not pray in vain repetitions".   

Every now and then, I'll say the prayer if I need God and don't know what else to say.

Otherwise, I think the ropes & rosary work people into trances of sorts, repeating the same prayer over and over and over again... Just as God told them NOT to.  I believe God is capable of hearing the prayer if said once, and I believe that men only fool themselves thinking that saying it X amount of times, is going to bring them closer to God - when really they are just "working themselves up".

Saying a prayer once, with a true and meaningful heart, is how to do it.

Yeah, I think Jesus taught this because God the Father got so annoyed by the angels saying Holy, Holy, Holy, Holy, Holy, Holy, etc. on and on around the throne. Someone had to put a stop to it.

The funny Orthodox response.

Yeah, but Jesus nonetheless, TAUGHT IT.

I've prayed the Jesus prayer, I've seen the prayer ropes, I've seen people do it.  It is vain & repetitious.  Sorry.

No need to apologize.  Just explain why praying the Jesus Prayer more than once is "vain repetition".  Repetition, yes, but what makes it "vain"?
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« Reply #55 on: April 18, 2013, 02:11:45 PM »

I like the Jesus prayer, IF SAID ONCE.

I believe whole heartedly that God meant "Do not pray in vain repetitions".  

Every now and then, I'll say the prayer if I need God and don't know what else to say.

Otherwise, I think the ropes & rosary work people into trances of sorts, repeating the same prayer over and over and over again... Just as God told them NOT to.  I believe God is capable of hearing the prayer if said once, and I believe that men only fool themselves thinking that saying it X amount of times, is going to bring them closer to God - when really they are just "working themselves up".

Saying a prayer once, with a true and meaningful heart, is how to do it.

Yeah, I think Jesus taught this because God the Father got so annoyed by the angels saying Holy, Holy, Holy, Holy, Holy, Holy, etc. on and on around the throne. Someone had to put a stop to it.

The funny Orthodox response.

Yeah, but Jesus nonetheless, TAUGHT IT.

I've prayed the Jesus prayer, I've seen the prayer ropes, I've seen people do it.  It is vain & repetitious.  Sorry.

Don't you mean Yeshua?

Lord have mercy (x40).

Yes, for the sake of argument, it is Yeshua, who taught not to say Lord have mercy x40.
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« Reply #56 on: April 18, 2013, 02:13:54 PM »

I like the Jesus prayer, IF SAID ONCE.

I believe whole heartedly that God meant "Do not pray in vain repetitions".  

Every now and then, I'll say the prayer if I need God and don't know what else to say.

Otherwise, I think the ropes & rosary work people into trances of sorts, repeating the same prayer over and over and over again... Just as God told them NOT to.  I believe God is capable of hearing the prayer if said once, and I believe that men only fool themselves thinking that saying it X amount of times, is going to bring them closer to God - when really they are just "working themselves up".

Saying a prayer once, with a true and meaningful heart, is how to do it.

Quote from: Lukas 11:5-13 OJB
5 And Rebbe Melech HaMoshiach said to them, Who among you will have a chaver and will come to him at chatzot halailah (midnight), and say to him, Chaver, lend me shalosh kikrot (loaves);

6 Because a chaver of mine has come from a journey to me and I have nothing to set before him;

7 And from inside he shall reply, saying, Do not bother me; the delet has already been shut, and my yeladim and I are already in bed; I cannot get up and give to you anything.

8 I say to you, even if he will not get up and give him anything, because he is his chaver, at least because of his keseder (constantly) persistent importunity he will get up and give to him as much as he needs.

9 And I tell you [when you daven], ask, and it shall be given to you; seek and you shall find; knock and it shall be opened to you.

10 For everyone asking receives; and he who is seeking, finds; and to the one knocking, it shall be opened.

11 And what Abba among you is there who, if his ben asks for a dag (fish), instead of a dag (fish) will give to him a nachash (snake)?

12 Or if the ben will ask for a beytzah (egg), will the av give him an akrav (scorpion)?

13 If, therefore, you, though you are ra’im (evil ones), have da’as (knowledge) of how to give matanot tovot (good gifts) to your yeladim, how much more will HaAv shbaShomayim give the Ruach Hakodesh to the ones asking him.

Exactly my point.  

By repeating the Jesus Prayer, they have the knowledge not to repeat like this, yet do it anyway.

This is called DISOBEDIENCE to God.  

Say it once, I have no problem, but saying it multiple times just works people up into delusional trances, and is actually kind of odd.... As if God didn't hear you.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2013, 02:14:11 PM by yeshuaisiam » Logged

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« Reply #57 on: April 18, 2013, 02:16:41 PM »

Yes, for the sake of argument, it is Yeshua, who taught not to say Lord have mercy x40.

Quote from:  Matthew 26:40-44
And he came unto the disciples, and found them asleep, and said unto Peter: "What, could you not watch with me one hour? Watch and pray, that you enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak."

He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying: "O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, your will be done."

And he came and found them asleep again: for their eyes were heavy. And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.
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« Reply #58 on: April 18, 2013, 02:16:46 PM »

I like the Jesus prayer, IF SAID ONCE.

I believe whole heartedly that God meant "Do not pray in vain repetitions".   
...Saying a prayer once, with a true and meaningful heart, is how to do it.
I don't believe you.
How many times do you say "Lord have mercy" at Divine Liturgy? How many times do you cross yourself at liturgy saying Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

Yes...
Prayers are in conjunction with what the priest is saying

"Lord have mercy on the sick and suffering"
"Lord have mercy on those at war & armed forces everywhere"
etc.

"In the name of the father, son, & holy spirit", is a declaration of who you are praying to.


Repeating "The Jesus Prayer" over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over........
Is disobeying God.
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« Reply #59 on: April 18, 2013, 02:24:39 PM »

Yes, for the sake of argument, it is Yeshua, who taught not to say Lord have mercy x40.

Quote from:  Matthew 26:40-44
And he came unto the disciples, and found them asleep, and said unto Peter: "What, could you not watch with me one hour? Watch and pray, that you enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak."

He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying: "O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, your will be done."

And he came and found them asleep again: for their eyes were heavy. And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.

Yes, the third time.  Trinity anybody?

Let's do a 100 knot prayer rope now.... ?

What did God say?
Matthew 6:7
7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

I've practiced/used the prayer rope as an Orthodox Christian.  I've heard the apologetics.  I've read about the Jesus prayer.  I've been in monasteries witnessing monks use the prayer rope.  I absolutely believe it to be repetitious prayer.   I disagree with this facet of Eastern Orthodoxy.  I know it seems I cherry pick and Orthodoxy seems to come in an "all or nothing" deal.  

Nonetheless, it is repetitious, many words, and vain - something GOD commanded us NOT to pray.

I have no beef with the Jesus prayer, I even say it.  But I say it once, when I can think of nothing else...  In those quick situations when I need a prayer but can't think/busy etc.  I believe it is a very powerful and beautiful, yet simple prayer.  But I will not disobey God and repeat it over and over.

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« Reply #60 on: April 18, 2013, 02:30:07 PM »

Yes, for the sake of argument, it is Yeshua, who taught not to say Lord have mercy x40.

Quote from:  Matthew 26:40-44
And he came unto the disciples, and found them asleep, and said unto Peter: "What, could you not watch with me one hour? Watch and pray, that you enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak."

He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying: "O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, your will be done."

And he came and found them asleep again: for their eyes were heavy. And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.

Yes, the third time.  Trinity anybody?

Let's do a 100 knot prayer rope now.... ?

What did God say?
Matthew 6:7
7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.



So, all those saints, all those Athonite (and other) monks, all those nuns, bishops, priests, pilgrims, and lay people are (or have been), by saying the Jesus Prayer more than one time, disobeying God?  That's quite an accusation!!

And you STILL haven't said what makes repeating a prayer more than one time "vain".  (I once had an Orthodox priest tell me, in a group study context, what was meant by that, but for the life of me, I can't remember what he said  Sad.  I remember though that he did say it is perfectly alright to repeat the Jesus Prayer, and even encouraged folks to do so.  Uh oh...bad boy!)
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« Reply #61 on: April 18, 2013, 02:34:16 PM »

Repeating "The Jesus Prayer" over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over........
Is disobeying God.

He taught that we should forgive our brother if he sins against us 77 times a day (Matthew 18:21). I should be surprised if he were annoyed with us asking him to do the same 40 times.  

"For a just man shall fall seven times and rise again." (Prov. 24:16)

"I praise you seven times a day." (Ps. 118:164)

"I will bless the Lord at all times; his praise shall continually be in my mouth." (Ps. 33:2)

"Pray without ceasing." (1 Thess. 5:17)

How do you do this without repetition?

People who prefer spontaneous prayer - pentecostals, for instance - would have their "original" prayer jargon, which they repeat all the time as well.
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« Reply #62 on: April 18, 2013, 02:34:26 PM »

Yes, for the sake of argument, it is Yeshua, who taught not to say Lord have mercy x40.

Quote from:  Matthew 26:40-44
And he came unto the disciples, and found them asleep, and said unto Peter: "What, could you not watch with me one hour? Watch and pray, that you enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak."

He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying: "O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, your will be done."

And he came and found them asleep again: for their eyes were heavy. And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.

Yes, the third time.  Trinity anybody?

Let's do a 100 knot prayer rope now.... ?

What did God say?
Matthew 6:7
7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.



So, all those saints, all those Athonite (and other) monks, all those nuns, bishops, priests, pilgrims, and lay people are (or have been), by saying the Jesus Prayer more than one time, disobeying God?  That's quite an accusation!!

And you STILL haven't said what makes repeating a prayer more than one time "vain".

Absolutely.

Show me the Jesus prayer used between 100-200 A.D.   Things like prayer ropes did not exist.   What happened is people CONVINCED them they need to repeat a prayer.

Definition of vain:
    1. Having or showing an excessively high opinion of one's appearance, abilities, or worth.
    2. Producing no result; useless: "a vain attempt to sleep".

Scripture Matthew 6:7
7 But when you pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8Be not you therefore like to them: for your Father knows what things you have need of, before you ask him.

Look at definition 2.

It is a completely vain to pray like that WHEN YOUR FATHER KNOWS THE THINGS YOU NEED, before you ask them.
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« Reply #63 on: April 18, 2013, 02:34:50 PM »

Am I the only one who finds it funny that the opposition to "vain repetition" is being expressed through repetition (namely, repeated statements about the error of vain repetition)?  It seems that yeshuaisiam doesn't think this repetition is vain, but on the contrary has meaning and bears repeating even though the essential message has not changed.  And yet, repetitive prayer is so bad?  

The same Jesus who spoke against "vain repetition" clearly didn't have a problem with repetitive prayer.  It's all over the Bible, and he even practiced it.  Human beings are creatures of habit, and without repetition, we'd fall apart, physiologically and otherwise.  As another poster pointed out, the real issue is what makes the repetition vain versus life-giving.  And I don't think the ultimate criterion for determining this is "because I said so" or "because yeshuaisiam said so".    
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« Reply #64 on: April 18, 2013, 02:38:10 PM »

I voted both.
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« Reply #65 on: April 18, 2013, 02:38:21 PM »

Repeating "The Jesus Prayer" over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over........
Is disobeying God.

He taught that we should forgive our brother if he sins against us 77 times a day (Matthew 18:21). I should be surprised if he were annoyed with us asking him to do the same 40 times.  

"For a just man shall fall seven times and rise again." (Prov. 24:16)

"I praise you seven times a day." (Ps. 118:164)

"I will bless the Lord at all times; his praise shall continually be in my mouth." (Ps. 33:2)

"Pray without ceasing." (1 Thess. 5:17)

How do you do this without repetition?

People who prefer spontaneous prayer - pentecostals, for instance - would have their "original" prayer jargon, which they repeat all the time as well.

This argument doesn't hold merit.

Forgiveness is not repeating a prayer.
Praising God 7 times a day does not mean repeating yourself OVER AND OVER AND OVER.
Praising the Lord at all times & praying without ceasing is close to the same thing, all without repetition.

Look, there is one thing to pray for your family.... The next day pray for your family again...

But this isn't how the Jesus prayer is used.

They even make ropes to give you "much words".  Over and over and over again.

It's so simple, I just don't see the apologetics behind this.   It's just going against what God commanded of us.  It's repetitious, x100, often at least 3x times a day.  vain attempts that the words may be heard, when God knows all along what you need.
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« Reply #66 on: April 18, 2013, 02:39:33 PM »

But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do:

It's your contention that repeating the Jesus prayer is vain. As for heathen, I hope no one's so foolish to consider it that.

The heathens of Our Lord's day weren't praying the Jesus prayer - except maybe for the Syro-Phoenician woman.  
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« Reply #67 on: April 18, 2013, 02:40:43 PM »

Am I the only one who finds it funny that the opposition to "vain repetition" is being expressed through repetition (namely, repeated statements about the error of vain repetition)?  It seems that yeshuaisiam doesn't think this repetition is vain, but on the contrary has meaning and bears repeating even though the essential message has not changed.  And yet, repetitive prayer is so bad?  

The same Jesus who spoke against "vain repetition" clearly didn't have a problem with repetitive prayer.  It's all over the Bible, and he even practiced it.  Human beings are creatures of habit, and without repetition, we'd fall apart, physiologically and otherwise.  As another poster pointed out, the real issue is what makes the repetition vain versus life-giving.  And I don't think the ultimate criterion for determining this is "because I said so" or "because yeshuaisiam said so".    

It's actually "not all over the bible".

There were prayers said "3 times" which represent the trinity.  Including "holy holy holy"...

This is NOT a person

Grabbing a prayer rope with alloted knots "to make sure" to get this many prayers said.
Saying it (often) 100 times over and over....
Making vain attempts that God hears your prayers, when he knows exactly what you need.  That's what HE SAID, not what I said.
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« Reply #68 on: April 18, 2013, 02:42:19 PM »

Making vain attempts that God hears your prayers, when he knows exactly what you need.  That's what HE SAID, not what I said.

Why pray to begin with if God knows what we want already?
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« Reply #69 on: April 18, 2013, 02:42:31 PM »

It is a completely vain to pray like that WHEN YOUR FATHER KNOWS THE THINGS YOU NEED, before you ask them.

Of course, this begs the question: why bother praying at all if God knows what we're going to ask before we ask, and knows better than we do what we need?  Even the first prayer you make to God about a given issue would already be a sort of repetition...to God.  So why bother praying at all?  

Sometimes we fight so strongly for what we think is the gospel that we're actually making the devil's case for him.  
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« Reply #70 on: April 18, 2013, 02:42:59 PM »

Yes, for the sake of argument, it is Yeshua, who taught not to say Lord have mercy x40.

Quote from:  Matthew 26:40-44
And he came unto the disciples, and found them asleep, and said unto Peter: "What, could you not watch with me one hour? Watch and pray, that you enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak."

He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying: "O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, your will be done."

And he came and found them asleep again: for their eyes were heavy. And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.

Yes, the third time.  Trinity anybody?

Let's do a 100 knot prayer rope now.... ?

What did God say?
Matthew 6:7
7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.



So, all those saints, all those Athonite (and other) monks, all those nuns, bishops, priests, pilgrims, and lay people are (or have been), by saying the Jesus Prayer more than one time, disobeying God?  That's quite an accusation!!

And you STILL haven't said what makes repeating a prayer more than one time "vain".

Absolutely.

Show me the Jesus prayer used between 100-200 A.D.   Things like prayer ropes did not exist.   What happened is people CONVINCED them they need to repeat a prayer.

Definition of vain:
    1. Having or showing an excessively high opinion of one's appearance, abilities, or worth.
    2. Producing no result; useless: "a vain attempt to sleep".

Scripture Matthew 6:7
7 But when you pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8Be not you therefore like to them: for your Father knows what things you have need of, before you ask him.

Look at definition 2.

It is a completely vain to pray like that WHEN YOUR FATHER KNOWS THE THINGS YOU NEED, before you ask them.


How are YOU to judge whether someone else's prayer is useless or that it produces no result??

How do YOU know the heart of the person praying to be able to determine their opinion or appraisal of themself or the worthiness of their action of prayer?

Re: the bolded part, if you just go by that criteria, ALL prayer is "vain" because our Father always knows the things we need before we ask them.  Always.  He wouldn't be God otherwise.
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« Reply #71 on: April 18, 2013, 02:44:05 PM »

They even make ropes to give you "much words".  Over and over and over again.

That's just it! The words are not "much" - they were just 5 initially: Kyrie Iisou Christe, eleison me.

You don't understand what polylogia is. It's empty talk, without mind and heart. Now, that's idle indeed.
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« Reply #72 on: April 18, 2013, 02:45:32 PM »

But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do:

It's your contention that repeating the Jesus prayer is vain. As for heathen, I hope no one's so foolish to consider it that.

The heathens of Our Lord's day weren't praying the Jesus prayer - except maybe for the Syro-Phoenician woman.  

He wasn't speaking of the heathens praying.  He was speaking to his followers, and teaching them NOT to do these things.  

I posted the definition of vain.

2. Producing no result; useless: "a vain attempt to sleep".

Christ was speaking (using a heathen as example) that they babble & repeat stuff over and over, thinking their words would be heard - when all along God knows what you need.

You don't need to repeat yourself over and over... God knows.  Repeating it is vain attempts "thinking they would be heard".


I really believe people understand this... Unfortunately, I know it's an "all or none" package deal... So its easier to make excuses for this.  Again, it's a beautiful prayer, I say it myself.  Simple, and perfect in many situations.  But over and over again is wrong, as God told us not to do this.
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« Reply #73 on: April 18, 2013, 02:48:26 PM »

I like the Jesus prayer, IF SAID ONCE.

I believe whole heartedly that God meant "Do not pray in vain repetitions".   
...Saying a prayer once, with a true and meaningful heart, is how to do it.
I don't believe you.
How many times do you say "Lord have mercy" at Divine Liturgy? How many times do you cross yourself at liturgy saying Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

Yes...
Prayers are in conjunction with what the priest is saying

"Lord have mercy on the sick and suffering"
"Lord have mercy on those at war & armed forces everywhere"
etc.

"In the name of the father, son, & holy spirit", is a declaration of who you are praying to.


Repeating "The Jesus Prayer" over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over........
Is disobeying God.
At several times during the liturgy, it is indicated to pray "Lord have mercy" three times consecutively one after another. Why repeat the prayer three times and not only once?
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« Reply #74 on: April 18, 2013, 02:50:02 PM »

I prefer the Jesus Prayer, but mostly because I just don't really feel the sense of closeness with the Theotokos that so many others feel. I pray that I will someday.
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« Reply #75 on: April 18, 2013, 02:50:23 PM »

Yes, for the sake of argument, it is Yeshua, who taught not to say Lord have mercy x40.

Quote from:  Matthew 26:40-44
And he came unto the disciples, and found them asleep, and said unto Peter: "What, could you not watch with me one hour? Watch and pray, that you enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak."

He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying: "O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, your will be done."

And he came and found them asleep again: for their eyes were heavy. And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.

Yes, the third time.  Trinity anybody?

Let's do a 100 knot prayer rope now.... ?

What did God say?
Matthew 6:7
7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.



So, all those saints, all those Athonite (and other) monks, all those nuns, bishops, priests, pilgrims, and lay people are (or have been), by saying the Jesus Prayer more than one time, disobeying God?  That's quite an accusation!!

And you STILL haven't said what makes repeating a prayer more than one time "vain".

Absolutely.

Show me the Jesus prayer used between 100-200 A.D.   Things like prayer ropes did not exist.   What happened is people CONVINCED them they need to repeat a prayer.

Definition of vain:
    1. Having or showing an excessively high opinion of one's appearance, abilities, or worth.
    2. Producing no result; useless: "a vain attempt to sleep".

Scripture Matthew 6:7
7 But when you pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8Be not you therefore like to them: for your Father knows what things you have need of, before you ask him.

Look at definition 2.

It is a completely vain to pray like that WHEN YOUR FATHER KNOWS THE THINGS YOU NEED, before you ask them.


How are YOU to judge whether someone else's prayer is useless or that it produces no result??

How do YOU know the heart of the person praying to be able to determine their opinion or appraisal of themself or the worthiness of their action of prayer?

Re: the bolded part, if you just go by that criteria, ALL prayer is "vain" because our Father always knows the things we need before we ask them.  Always.  He wouldn't be God otherwise.

No, REPEATED prayer is vain.

He knows.  We pray for it.

Also you are twisting what I am saying.   I don't judge if prayer is useless.   I try to follow what Christ said.

100x prayer ropes, 3x a day.... no not vain.   Don't skip a knot or bead.

I guess people think God is dumb and doesn't know.  Beats me.
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« Reply #76 on: April 18, 2013, 02:50:29 PM »

Making vain attempts that God hears your prayers, when he knows exactly what you need.  That's what HE SAID, not what I said.

God knows that we need his forgiveness. We, on the other hand, keep forgetting it all the time. And the Jesus prayer is all about constantly reminding ourselves who we are and who he is...
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« Reply #77 on: April 18, 2013, 02:50:35 PM »

Am I the only one who finds it funny that the opposition to "vain repetition" is being expressed through repetition (namely, repeated statements about the error of vain repetition)?  It seems that yeshuaisiam doesn't think this repetition is vain, but on the contrary has meaning and bears repeating even though the essential message has not changed.  And yet, repetitive prayer is so bad?  

The same Jesus who spoke against "vain repetition" clearly didn't have a problem with repetitive prayer.  It's all over the Bible, and he even practiced it.  Human beings are creatures of habit, and without repetition, we'd fall apart, physiologically and otherwise.  As another poster pointed out, the real issue is what makes the repetition vain versus life-giving.  And I don't think the ultimate criterion for determining this is "because I said so" or "because yeshuaisiam said so".    

It's actually "not all over the bible".

There were prayers said "3 times" which represent the trinity.  Including "holy holy holy"...

This is NOT a person

Grabbing a prayer rope with alloted knots "to make sure" to get this many prayers said.
Saying it (often) 100 times over and over....
Making vain attempts that God hears your prayers, when he knows exactly what you need.  That's what HE SAID, not what I said.

In the danish Bible, it is translated as "Don't make your mouth run wild", which basically means not to speak (or in this case, pray) without thinking. The Jesus Prayer is not this, it is the exact opposite. Paul commands us to pray unceasingly. By praying the Jesus Prayer and being aware of what we are saying. Our prayer becomes neither vain nor wild, but controlled, sober and personal.  
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« Reply #78 on: April 18, 2013, 02:50:56 PM »

I like the Jesus prayer, IF SAID ONCE.

I believe whole heartedly that God meant "Do not pray in vain repetitions".   
...Saying a prayer once, with a true and meaningful heart, is how to do it.
I don't believe you.
How many times do you say "Lord have mercy" at Divine Liturgy? How many times do you cross yourself at liturgy saying Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

Yes...
Prayers are in conjunction with what the priest is saying

"Lord have mercy on the sick and suffering"
"Lord have mercy on those at war & armed forces everywhere"
etc.

"In the name of the father, son, & holy spirit", is a declaration of who you are praying to.


Repeating "The Jesus Prayer" over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over........
Is disobeying God.
At several times during the liturgy, it is indicated to pray "Lord have mercy" three times consecutively one after another. Why repeat the prayer three times and not only once?

Trinity.  Way different than 100x prayer rope.
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« Reply #79 on: April 18, 2013, 02:52:49 PM »

Am I the only one who finds it funny that the opposition to "vain repetition" is being expressed through repetition (namely, repeated statements about the error of vain repetition)?  It seems that yeshuaisiam doesn't think this repetition is vain, but on the contrary has meaning and bears repeating even though the essential message has not changed.  And yet, repetitive prayer is so bad?  

The same Jesus who spoke against "vain repetition" clearly didn't have a problem with repetitive prayer.  It's all over the Bible, and he even practiced it.  Human beings are creatures of habit, and without repetition, we'd fall apart, physiologically and otherwise.  As another poster pointed out, the real issue is what makes the repetition vain versus life-giving.  And I don't think the ultimate criterion for determining this is "because I said so" or "because yeshuaisiam said so".    

It's actually "not all over the bible".

There were prayers said "3 times" which represent the trinity.  Including "holy holy holy"...

This is NOT a person

Grabbing a prayer rope with alloted knots "to make sure" to get this many prayers said.
Saying it (often) 100 times over and over....
Making vain attempts that God hears your prayers, when he knows exactly what you need.  That's what HE SAID, not what I said.

In the danish Bible, it is translated as "Don't make your mouth run wild", which basically means not to speak (or in this case, pray) without thinking. The Jesus Prayer is not this, it is the exact opposite. Paul commands us to pray unceasingly. By praying the jesus Prayer and being aware of what we are saying. Our prayer becomes neither vain nor wild, but controlled, sober and personal.  

I would find praying the Jesus prayer to become more "mindless" as it repeats, than praying without ceasing, where I must focus on what I am saying.
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« Reply #80 on: April 18, 2013, 02:54:10 PM »

Am I the only one who finds it funny that the opposition to "vain repetition" is being expressed through repetition (namely, repeated statements about the error of vain repetition)?  It seems that yeshuaisiam doesn't think this repetition is vain, but on the contrary has meaning and bears repeating even though the essential message has not changed.  And yet, repetitive prayer is so bad?  

The same Jesus who spoke against "vain repetition" clearly didn't have a problem with repetitive prayer.  It's all over the Bible, and he even practiced it.  Human beings are creatures of habit, and without repetition, we'd fall apart, physiologically and otherwise.  As another poster pointed out, the real issue is what makes the repetition vain versus life-giving.  And I don't think the ultimate criterion for determining this is "because I said so" or "because yeshuaisiam said so".    

It's actually "not all over the bible".

There were prayers said "3 times" which represent the trinity.  Including "holy holy holy"...

This is NOT a person

Grabbing a prayer rope with alloted knots "to make sure" to get this many prayers said.
Saying it (often) 100 times over and over....
Making vain attempts that God hears your prayers, when he knows exactly what you need.  That's what HE SAID, not what I said.

In the danish Bible, it is translated as "Don't make your mouth run wild", which basically means not to speak (or in this case, pray) without thinking. The Jesus Prayer is not this, it is the exact opposite. Paul commands us to pray unceasingly. By praying the jesus Prayer and being aware of what we are saying. Our prayer becomes neither vain nor wild, but controlled, sober and personal.  

I would find praying the Jesus prayer to become more "mindless" as it repeats, than praying without ceasing, where I must focus on what I am saying.


You may find it to be so, but that has nothing to do with the prayer itself.
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« Reply #81 on: April 18, 2013, 02:55:12 PM »

Am I the only one who finds it funny that the opposition to "vain repetition" is being expressed through repetition (namely, repeated statements about the error of vain repetition)?  It seems that yeshuaisiam doesn't think this repetition is vain, but on the contrary has meaning and bears repeating even though the essential message has not changed.  And yet, repetitive prayer is so bad?  

The same Jesus who spoke against "vain repetition" clearly didn't have a problem with repetitive prayer.  It's all over the Bible, and he even practiced it.  Human beings are creatures of habit, and without repetition, we'd fall apart, physiologically and otherwise.  As another poster pointed out, the real issue is what makes the repetition vain versus life-giving.  And I don't think the ultimate criterion for determining this is "because I said so" or "because yeshuaisiam said so".    

It's actually "not all over the bible".

There were prayers said "3 times" which represent the trinity.  Including "holy holy holy"...

This is NOT a person

Grabbing a prayer rope with alloted knots "to make sure" to get this many prayers said.
Saying it (often) 100 times over and over....
Making vain attempts that God hears your prayers, when he knows exactly what you need.  That's what HE SAID, not what I said.

Honestly, this conversation really makes me sad.  

Repetitious prayer is all over Scripture, and not all of it is simply a matter of "3 times = Trinity".  Open up the Psalter.  But if you can't see it even when it's pointed out to you, then you can't see it, what can I say?  I'll pray for you once.  

Ultimately, you and I are not the judge of whose prayer is vain and whose isn't--God judges that.  We can talk about what constitutes vanity, but we can't judge the heart--God does that.  If someone's repetitive prayer is not vain but brings them close to God and draws God close to them, why should I stop that based on my faulty understanding of the gospel?  I would then be like those Pharisees Christ repeatedly lambasted for not entering the Kingdom of God themselves and prohibiting those who want to enter from doing so.  
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« Reply #82 on: April 18, 2013, 02:56:30 PM »

Producing no result; useless: "a vain attempt to sleep".

If the Jesus prayer produced "no result" for me, I should wonder why. Is it the prayer or is it me?

You chose the easy way out of this "dilemma".  Sad  

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« Reply #83 on: April 18, 2013, 02:57:51 PM »

It is a completely vain to pray like that WHEN YOUR FATHER KNOWS THE THINGS YOU NEED, before you ask them.

Of course, this begs the question: why bother praying at all if God knows what we're going to ask before we ask, and knows better than we do what we need?  Even the first prayer you make to God about a given issue would already be a sort of repetition...to God.  So why bother praying at all?  

Sometimes we fight so strongly for what we think is the gospel that we're actually making the devil's case for him.  

I believe God knows what we need all along, and a prayer expresses our faith, love, and need to be with God.
By asking him once, we have shown our need for God.

By repeating it over and over, it becomes vain, as we believe our results of "many words", can "influence God/convince God/bring God Closer/we become closer to God" etc.

God knows, through faith we ask of him.

But he doesn't need to be asked 100x a day, 3x a day.   Be sure not to skip a knot... That may be bad.
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« Reply #84 on: April 18, 2013, 02:59:19 PM »

By asking him once, we have shown our need for God.

So it's just following procedure?
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« Reply #85 on: April 18, 2013, 03:00:06 PM »

Producing no result; useless: "a vain attempt to sleep".

If the Jesus prayer produced "no result" for me, I should wonder why. Is it the prayer or is it me?

You chose the easy way out of this "dilemma".  Sad  



It's not the Jesus prayer, it's the repeating of it over and over, back to back, thinking it will "do something more" than saying it once.

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« Reply #86 on: April 18, 2013, 03:02:03 PM »

By asking him once, we have shown our need for God.

So it's just following procedure?

Not exactly.   "Ask seek knock".   But once the door is opened, don't keep knocking thinking it's going to be better somehow.
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« Reply #87 on: April 18, 2013, 03:03:37 PM »

I like the Jesus prayer, IF SAID ONCE.

I believe whole heartedly that God meant "Do not pray in vain repetitions".   
...Saying a prayer once, with a true and meaningful heart, is how to do it.
I don't believe you.
How many times do you say "Lord have mercy" at Divine Liturgy? How many times do you cross yourself at liturgy saying Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

Yes...
Prayers are in conjunction with what the priest is saying

"Lord have mercy on the sick and suffering"
"Lord have mercy on those at war & armed forces everywhere"
etc.

"In the name of the father, son, & holy spirit", is a declaration of who you are praying to.


Repeating "The Jesus Prayer" over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over........
Is disobeying God.
At several times during the liturgy, it is indicated to pray "Lord have mercy" three times consecutively one after another. Why repeat the prayer three times and not only once?

Trinity.  Way different than 100x prayer rope.
What?!?
You mean that if you pray "Lord have mercy" only once the Triune God will not hear your prayer?
You repeat the prayer three times in many places in the Liturgy, and many times over all. And you repeat the sign of the cross prayer several times during the Liturgy. Why not only once?
 
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Ansgar
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Keep your mind in hell and do not despair


« Reply #88 on: April 18, 2013, 03:05:36 PM »

By asking him once, we have shown our need for God.

So it's just following procedure?

Not exactly.   "Ask seek knock".   But once the door is opened, don't keep knocking thinking it's going to be better somehow.


No, but when you enter the house, you usually talk with the host, and that is what prayer is all about, communication. By your definition, we could just say the Jesus Prayer once in our life and that would be it.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2013, 03:06:22 PM by Ansgar » Logged

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« Reply #89 on: April 18, 2013, 03:10:22 PM »

So we should call Jesus name 3x because more than that, is vain repetition? You know you are contradicting yourself by repeating the same thing, vainly, because we wont change our believes just because YOU dont agree with them. The Bible mentions people calling on His name repeteadly until He listened, i think repeating a prayer is a small sacrifice that you do and keeps your flesh from governing yor soul.
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Wilma (Nazarius)

"Humbleness is protection, patience is confirmation, love is defence. Where there is love, there is God, there is all the good…" St. Nazary of Valaam
Tags: rosary Jesus Prayer 
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