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Question: Which of these prayers do you pray the most and why?
The Jesus Prayer because...
Both
The Rosary because...
Other

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Author Topic: The Jesus Prayer or the Rosary?  (Read 6924 times) Average Rating: 0
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GabrieltheCelt
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« on: April 07, 2008, 09:45:13 PM »

Hey y'all,

I wanted to spark up a conversation about these two different prayers and maybe discuss why/why not you like one in particular.  Since I brought it up, I try to say both prayers on a daily basis, but the prayer I've particularly come to love is the Rosary (with a few differences than the RC version), though I still say the Jesus Prayer. 

The way I say the Rosary goes like this;
At the Cross, I say, "In the Name...Now and ever and unto ages of ages. Amen"  Where RC's say the Apostle's Creed, I say the Nicene Creed.  The next three beads I say the Jesus Prayer and then I go on to recite the Mysteries of that particular day.  For each of the decades(sets of ten beads), I say the RC version of Hail Mary (with a few changes) only because at the end there is a petition for the Theotokos to pray for us (...pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.) rather than the EO version which ends with "For thou hast borne the Savior of our Souls."  At the end, I usually say the Prayer Before Commencing a Task found in the little red Antiochian prayer book.  This is how I've come to pray it, but I've heard other EO versions.

 
Here is how I say the Hail Mary-

Hail Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee. 
Blessed art thou among women
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Lord Jesus Christ. 
Holy Mary, Lady Theotokos, pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death. Amen


But throughout the day at work, I recite the Jesus Prayer whenever I get the chance.

I know there are many EO's like myself who regularly pray the Mysteries of the Rosary or simply The Hail Mary.  For those of you who don't, I'm curious what you think about them?  Do you see a problem for EO's to pray the Rosary?  Why/Why not?  For those of you who focus solely on the Jesus Prayer, what impact has it had on your life?

In Christ,

Gabriel

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« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2008, 10:07:43 PM »

The Jesus Prayer because...

1) That is the Kanon (Prayer Rule) given me by my Spiritual Father.
2) It is like an S.O.S signal being sent out by a sinking ship.
3) It calls on the only Name Which saves.
4) It rhytmically accompanies prostrations.
5) I try to avoid all mental imagery in prayer and focus on the words I'm praying.
6) It assists me tremendously in the practice of mindfulness.
7) It is free of sentimentality.
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« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2008, 10:29:36 PM »

The Jesus Prayer because...

1) That is the Kanon (Prayer Rule) given me by my Spiritual Father.
2) It is like an S.O.S signal being sent out by a sinking ship.
3) It calls on the only Name Which saves.
4) It rhytmically accompanies prostrations.
5) I try to avoid all mental imagery in prayer and focus on the words I'm praying.
6) It assists me tremendously in the practice of mindfulness.
7) It is free of sentimentality.


This is what I came in here to say, only to find that it was already said better than I could have.  Smiley
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« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2008, 11:34:52 PM »

The Jesus Prayer because...



6) It assists me tremendously in the practice of mindfulness.
7) It is free of sentimentality.

What is 'mindfulness'?  Also, I'm not sure I understand 'sentimentality' here.  Can you explain what you're talking about?  Thanks so much.
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« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2008, 11:47:14 PM »

The Jesus Prayer for me--it's shorter and therefore easier to remember in time of need.
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« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2008, 02:43:35 AM »

Both.

I usually just sub out the Fatima Prayer for the Jesus Prayer when reciting the Rosary.  My Spiritual Father encourages me to continue using the Rosary, so I do.

Helps me keep my Latin at a healthy sub-par level as well.   laugh
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« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2008, 02:57:05 AM »

Helps me keep my Latin at a healthy sub-par level as well.   laugh

So does that mean you could comfortably converse with Julius Caesar like a certain somebody...?  Wink Cheesy
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« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2008, 07:32:44 AM »

The Jesus Prayer.

The outward prayer isn’t so important, what is important is the inner prayer. So if the longer prayer works for you in regards to developing your inner prayer, than that is great.   The Jesus prayer does not necessarily work for everybody.

In the introduction of the Unseen Warfare, the writer mentioned two other forms of prayers that some of the fathers used outside of the Jesus prayer.

“Lord Jesus”

“O God, make speed to save me; O Lord, make haste to help me”

For me, I find the Jesus Prayer to be very beneficial. The Jesus prayer, or perhaps prayer itself, has helped me accept the Trinity in my heart as true, while at the same time it does not logically make sense.  It has helped me accept Jesus as God the Creator, something that I found very difficult to accept in the beginning. It also helps to bring the presense of God to me, during the Divine Liturgy when my mind is wandering, and when I am at work and doing othing things.

I would highly recommend the Art of Prayer, if you don’t have it.  I’ll type for you a passage from this book related to the topic.

"Prayer should be short, but often repeated"

“From those who have experience in raising their mind to God, I learned that, in the case of prayer made by the mind from the heart, a short prayer, often repeated, is warmer and more useful than a long one.  Lengthy prayer is also very useful, but only for those who are reaching perfection, not for beginners.  During lengthy prayer, the mind of the inexperienced cannot stand long before God, but is generally overcome by its own weakness and mutability, and drawn away by external things, so that warmth of the spirit quickly cools down. Such prayer is no longer prayer, but only disturbances of the mind, because of the thoughts wandering hither and thither; which happens both during prayers and psalms recited in church, and also during the rule of prayer for the cell, which takes a long time.  Short frequent prayer, on the other hand, has more stability, because the mind, immersed for short time in God, can perform it with greater warmth.  Therefore the Lord also says, ‘When ye pray, use not vain repetitions’ (matt 4:7), for it is not for your prolixity that you will be heard.  And St. John of the Ladder also teaches: ‘Do not try to use many words, lest your mind become distracted by the search for words.  Because of one short sentence, the Publican received the mercy of God, and one brief affirmation of belief saved the Robber.  An excessive multitude of words in prayer disperses the mind in dreams, while one word or a short sentence helps to collect the mind.’

…………………….

“Consequently do not let your oft-repeated but short prayer be expanded into too many words.  This is what the Holy Fathers also advice.  In his commentary on the Gospel of St. Matthew (6:7), St Theophylact states, “’You should not make long prayers, for it is better to pray little but often.’ And St. John Chrysostom, in his commentary on St Paul’s Epistles, observes, ‘Whoever says to much in prayer, does not pray, but indulges in idle talk.’ St Theophylact also says in his interpretation of Matthew 6:6 “’Superfluous words are idle talk.’ The Apostle said well, ‘I had rather speak five words with my understanding …. Than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue’ (I Cor. 14:19): that is, it is better for me to pray to God briefly but with attention, than to pronounce innumerable words without attention, vainly the air with noise.

There is also another sense in which the Apostle’s words must be interpreted. ‘Pray without ceasing’ (1 Thess. 5:17) must be taken in the sense of prayer performed by the mind:  whatever a man is doing, the mind can always be directed towards God, and in this way it can pray to Him unceasingly.

Therefore begin now, O my soul, little by little, the course of training set out for you, begin in the name of the Lord, according to the Apostle’s instruction: ‘And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus’ (Col 3:17)” ................ (St Dimitri of Rostov, from the Art of Prayer complied by Igumen Chariton of Valamo)

In Christ
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« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2008, 08:01:15 AM »

The Jesus Prayer because (a) I'm with PtA in the shorter and easier to remember when needed and (b) I don't know the Rosary by memory.
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« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2008, 08:46:32 AM »

I actually use the Jesus prayer but do not use the chotki normally.  Most of my use of the Jesus Prayer is as I write icons, as a prayer rule everytime the brush touches the board the iconographer says the Jesus Prayer.  In this manner each icon that is handwritten (or hand painted) has hundreds, even thousands of prayers said on it before it even goes to be blessed.  It assists the iconographer to empty him(her)self and focus upon our God or the Glory of His saints.

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« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2008, 09:22:45 AM »

So does that mean you could comfortably converse with Julius Caesar like a certain somebody...?  Wink Cheesy

LoL!  If he doesn't mind that I mix up my Latin pronunciations with my Italian ones sometimes  laugh
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« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2008, 11:42:43 AM »

What is 'mindfulness'?  Also, I'm not sure I understand 'sentimentality' here.  Can you explain what you're talking about?  Thanks so much.
Mindfulness is part of "sobriety". If we think of the state of mind which is the opposite of sobriety- drunkenness- in which the mind is dispersed, unable to focus, not collected, not attentive, self absorbed, grandiose etc; then sobriety is the opposite of this.
The scriptures say:
Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. 1 Thessalonians 5:6

But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 1 Thessalonians 5:8

be hospitable, a lover of what is good, sober-minded, just, holy, self-controlled,Titus 1:8

that the older men be sober, reverent, temperate, sound in faith, in love, in patience Titus 2:2

Likewise, exhort the young men to be sober-minded,Titus 2:6

Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.1 Peter 5:8

Mindfulness is the "pulling together" of the mind to focus it. Instead of a few small piles of straw scattered about and lit, it is akin to making one huge haystack and set on fire in a bonfire.The Jesus Prayer is excellent at doing this because (a)it is short, and (b) it contains all the fundamentals.
In the Jesus Prayer, the words "Lord Jesus Christ Son of God" sum up our Christology into one phrase. Jesus is Lord, He is God, He is Christ, He is the Second Hypostasis of the Trinity, Begotton of the Father. His Name is the Name to which "every knee shall bend". At the other end of the Jesus Prayer, the words "me the sinner" is set up as a contrast and polarity to the words "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God." He is LORD, I am the sinner. I am dust and ashes and mud gone wrong. I need saving, and the only one Who can save me is the "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God." And He knows exactly how to save me. He knows better than I exactly what I need. But He will not force Himself on me, so I need to ask. And so I place everything in His Hands by asking simply for mercy rather than specific things, since our prayer should always be "Thy Will be done".
All this, and much much more is focused by the simple words of the Jesus Prayer. That is what is meant by mindfulness.

Sentimentality is part of the opposite of mindfulness. Sentimentality is the arousing of the emotions through the imagination. Liturgical chanting is designed to be free of sentimentality- there are no emotional inflexions of tones or notes. Icons are deliberately styalized for the same reason- Christ's face appears the same whether He is being Transfigured on Mount Tabor or Despoiling Hades or being Crucified. It is the same, dispassionate face with no sentimentality. Prayer is work, a duty. It is a "job which needs to be done", and this is how we should approach it- not with flowery wool-gathering, allowing our mind to wander in different directions, nor by trying to "meditate" on events while at the same time "concentrate" on the words we are praying (which, as a psychologist, I believe is impossible anyway- the only way the mind can do this is to shift back and forth from the meditation to the words).







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« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2008, 11:49:40 AM »

I think Ozgeorge's point number five is good, and Fr. Seraphim Rose talked about it too:

Again drawing from the Holy Fathers, Fr. Seraphim counseled his spiritual children not to trust in or get carried away by their imagination, especially in prayer. Fr. Alexey Young recalls how, when he was still a Roman Catholic preparing to become Orthodox, he was given an important lesson by Fr. Seraphim: “I asked Fr. Seraphim about meditation, which my wife and I, still under the influence of our Roman Catholic background, had made part of our regular routine of morning prayer. We did not yet realize that the Orthodox understanding of meditation is quite different from the Western Christian view. In conversation, Fr. Seraphim explained that the use of imagination in Western spiritual systems of meditation—viz., while saying the Rosary, reciting the Stations of the Cross, or doing the Spiritual Exercises of Ignatius of Loyola, etc.—was not compatible with Orthodox spirituality and was forbidden because imagination came into use only after the fall of Adam and Eve; it is one of the lowest functions of the soul and the favorite playground of the devil, who can and does use human imagination in order to deceive and mislead even well-meaning people.” from http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/fsr_84.aspx
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« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2008, 12:09:01 PM »

Mindfulness is part of "sobriety". If we think of the state of mind which is the opposite of sobriety- drunkenness- in which the mind is dispersed, unable to focus, not collected, not attentive, self absorbed, grandiose etc; then sobriety is the opposite of this.
Mindfulness is the "pulling together" of the mind to focus it. Instead of a few small piles of straw scattered about and lit, it is akin to making one huge haystack and set on fire in a bonfire.The Jesus Prayer is excellent at doing this because (a)it is short, and (b) it contains all the fundamentals.
In the Jesus Prayer, the words "Lord Jesus Christ Son of God" sum up our Christology into one phrase. Jesus is Lord, He is God, He is Christ, He is the Second Hypostasis of the Trinity, Begotton of the Father. His Name is the Name to which "every knee shall bend". At the other end of the Jesus Prayer, the words "me the sinner" is set up as a contrast and polarity to the words "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God." He is LORD, I am the sinner. I am dust and ashes and mud gone wrong. I need saving, and the only one Who can save me is the "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God." And He knows exactly how to save me. He knows better than I exactly what I need. But He will not force Himself on me, so I need to ask. And so I place everything in His Hands by asking simply for mercy rather than specific things, since our prayer should always be "Thy Will be done".
All this, and much much more is focused by the simple words of the Jesus Prayer. That is what is meant by mindfulness.
Thanks for explaining this.  I was sort of familiar with the term in it's Buddhist application; to me, the two applications appear to be similar.  I suppose this is why Orthodoxy has been compared to Buddhism 'with Christ'.  Where can I read more about the Orthodox understanding of 'mindfulness' so that I have a better understanding?

Sentimentality is part of the opposite of mindfulness. Sentimentality is the arousing of the emotions through the imagination. Liturgical chanting is designed to be free of sentimentality- there are no emotional inflexions of tones or notes. Icons are deliberately styalized for the same reason- Christ's face appears the same whether He is being Transfigured on Mount Tabor or Despoiling Hades or being Crucified. It is the same, dispassionate face with no sentimentality. Prayer is work, a duty. It is a "job which needs to be done", and this is how we should approach it- not with flowery wool-gathering, allowing our mind to wander in different directions, nor by trying to "meditate" on events while at the same time "concentrate" on the words we are praying (which, as a psychologist, I believe is impossible anyway- the only way the mind can do this is to shift back and forth from the meditation to the words).
So, is apatheia the practice of moving away from sentimentality?  Also,  I don't know about you, but sometimes when I'm reading scripture (or praying), I do become emotional at times (whether that be happy and elated or very sad at times).  Am I not supposed to feel these emotions or are you speaking of something entirely different?

And re: #5- How can we avoid mental imagery when we're surrounded by icons? 

Again, thanks for helping me...








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« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2008, 12:32:37 PM »

Hey Ozzy,


I've found that when I become lazy and stop praying the Rosary and the Jesus Prayer, I become anxious, depressed and scatterbrained...very much like being spiritually drunk...now, I have an official name for it..thankies! Grin

Quote
and then I go on to recite the Mysteries of that particular day.

Do you have to focus on the particular Mystery of a particular day? 'Cause I just say the prayers as if I'm speaking to the person....I focus on my love, affection and desire to learn from them...
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« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2008, 12:41:32 PM »

Where can I read more about the Orthodox understanding of 'mindfulness' so that I have a better understanding?
A good source is the Philokalia. It's heavy going, but Orthodox Spirituality can't really be "learned" or "studied"- it needs to be practiced. You can't really learn the "theory behind it"- you have to do it.

So, is apatheia the practice of moving away from sentimentality?  Also,  I don't know about you, but sometimes when I'm reading scripture (or praying), I do become emotional at times (whether that be happy and elated or very sad at times).  Am I not supposed to feel these emotions or are you speaking of something entirely different?
"Apatheia" is the conquering of the passions. The emotions are part of the passions. The aim of apatheia is not to deny or eradicate the passions, but rather, to bridle them- to control them rather than let them control us.

And re: #5- How can we avoid mental imagery when we're surrounded by icons? 
Because an Icon is (a)external, and (b)stylized. There is no room for the imagination to move in an Icon. Because of the strict rules of Iconography, an Icon does not allow us to "imagine what it would be like" or "imagine what's going on in their mind". For instance, if you look at the Icon of the martydom of a martyr, the executioner is not made to "look evil" or show any expression on his face, the same goes for the martyr. The only way you can tell the difference between the martyr and the executioner is by noting which one has the halo. The same goes for Christ. In Icons, He has the same calm expression on His Face whether he is being Glorified in the Transfiguration or being Crucified on the Cross or despoiling Hades.
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« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2008, 04:54:43 PM »

So does that mean you could comfortably converse with Julius Caesar like a certain somebody...?  Wink Cheesy

Nektarios, who are you referencing here?  I'm sure I probably could do just that, if I do say so myself. Grin

I, of course, said the Jesus Prayer.  The thing is we Orthodox already say the "Rosary" in a slightly modified version during the Litya or at the end of Small Compline when we say "O Theotokos and Virgin, rejoice, O Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee.  Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb for thou hast borne the saviour of our souls."
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« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2008, 05:02:05 PM »

Nektarios, who are you referencing here?  I'm sure I probably could do just that, if I do say so myself. Grin

None other than Berlusconi.  I figured Friul as a fan of Italian politics would have enjoyed the reference. 
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« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2008, 10:19:00 PM »

Only the Jesus Prayer is short enough to fit on a ring:

http://www.holycross-hermitage.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?search=action&category=RING&keywords=all&template=PDGCommTemplates/TopBotNav/Storebuilder_Type4.html

It's a cool ring.  I got one.   Smiley


Seriously, there are times when I feel I'm about to go crazy over something and the Jesus Prayer calms me.  It's an amazing prayer.
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« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2008, 11:13:59 PM »

I particularly like the idea of the Institutions in the Rosary, because it gives more of a structure to prayer in general. 

But also I like the deep mysticism associated with the hesychastic movement and the Jesus prayer, as others have mentioned. 
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« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2008, 11:29:55 PM »

I particularly like the idea of the Institutions in the Rosary, because it gives more of a structure to prayer in general.
But then, when I absolutely must have a prayer ready for a tense situation, I'm not looking for structure. Wink
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« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2008, 12:16:16 AM »

LoL!  If he doesn't mind that I mix up my Latin pronunciations with my Italian ones sometimes  laugh

That is funny; when I was learning Latin I found myself pronouncing it with an Italian accent/cadence! And I don't speak Italian! Grin
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« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2008, 12:19:47 AM »

But then, when I absolutely must have a prayer ready for a tense situation, I'm not looking for structure. Wink

I think that is the beauty of the Jesus Prayer - it's there at the tip of your mind, right when you need it.
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« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2008, 12:26:51 AM »

But then, when I absolutely must have a prayer ready for a tense situation, I'm not looking for structure. Wink

I agree in the spirit of what you are saying.  On the other hand, usually when things are tense, I tend to cry out to the Lord with a one word phrase.  like:  Panagia!  or Thee mou!  or Gospode! (Lord!) or Boze sacuvaj (lord save)! 

Jesus prayer is usually a calming prayer and one that not only reorientates you to the things around you, but also to God.  It helps you bring equilibrium.  For me, I find that in everyday prayer and with doing the komboskini that the Institutions of the Catholic church are very helpful.  I mean...if you do the Institutions like you're supposed to...you could really have a very fruitful personal prayer life. 

Just some more thoughts. 
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« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2008, 01:18:38 AM »

I particularly like the idea of the Institutions in the Rosary, because it gives more of a structure to prayer in general. 

This is what I particulary like about praying the Rosary- the structure, but also the fact that I'm asking the Theotokos to pray for me as well.  As has been said, the Jesus Prayer can be said anywhere and at any time; it's simple and easy to remember.  Praying the Rosary, though, takes a little time; one must set aside a certain amount of time to pray it correctly (and to get the most out of it.)  For example, each day is set aside for a particular 'mystery'.  Let's look at the Joyful Mysteries (since today -Monday- is the day set aside for the Joyful Mysteries.) After reciting the Nicene Creed on the Cross, the next bead I recite the 'Our Father'.  The next four beads I recite the Jesus Prayer.  I then recite the 'first' Joyful Mystery;

First Joyful Mystery - The Annunciation of Gabriel to Mary- Luke 1:26 

I read the Scripture verse and then I say my version of the Hail Mary (that I mentioned earlier) on the next 10 beads.  The next bead I say the Jesus Prayer and then announce the Second Joyful Mystery and read the appointed Scripture verse.  I proceed with the next three 'decades' in the same manner until I get to the very end.

Second Joyful Mystery - The Visitation of Mary to Elizabeth- Luke 1:39

Third Joyful Mystery - The Birth of Jesus - Luke 2:1

Fourth Joyful Mystery - The Presentation of Jesus in the Temple- Luke 2:22

Fifth Joyful Mystery - Finding Jesus in the Temple- Luke 2:41

When I'm reading these verses, I do think about them and their relevance and importance in our lives.  I can honestly say that praying the Rosary is a very important part of my day and I can't imagine going too many days without praying it (I try not to miss any more than one day at a time.)  I do want to say that before I began praying the Rosary, I spoke at length about it with my Spiritual Father.  He gave me some great advice, a little history about the Rosary, and then permission to pray it.  As I say, I love praying it and I would advocate that everyone at least look at the Rosary and, if interested in praying it, talk to their Spiritual Father first.  I also want to reiterate that I also pray the Jesus Prayer many times throughout the day- though not necessarily on the tchotki.

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« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2008, 01:49:20 AM »

I like the Jesus Prayer because it reminds me of the beauty of Christ's Love and Mercy towards unworthy sinners like myself..


This is my opinion on the rosary.. (Im sorry if I may offend others here)..

I kinda find it ironic that Im meditating on, for example, the Scourging of Jesus on the Pillar, but Im reciting the Angelic Salutation!.. It's like im to put my mindset on Christ's pain and suffering as the soldiers are beating Him up, but my prayer is about what Angel Gabriel said to the Holy Theotokos during the Annunciation..
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« Reply #26 on: December 23, 2012, 10:04:25 PM »

I voted 'other'.

I like rosaries, and usually keep one in my pocket so I can pray it while walking, but I substitute other prayers. Usually 'My hope the Father, my refuge the Son, my protection the Holy Spirit; Holy Trinity, glory to thee' on the ave beads, and the Axion Estin on the pater beads.

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« Reply #27 on: December 23, 2012, 10:18:28 PM »

I pray both. Jesus prayer when walking or doing something. Rosary when I have time to actually sit and reflect. The Rosary has been a treasure for me.
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« Reply #28 on: December 23, 2012, 10:27:59 PM »

I love the Jesus Prayer. I used to pray the Rosary as a Catholic, and I still have a fondness for it, but I haven't really prayed it in a while.
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« Reply #29 on: December 23, 2012, 11:33:21 PM »

I said both, but I don't do the Rosary the RC way, but more simply--basically 150 "Rejoice, O Virgin Theotokos, Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, for thou hast born Christ the Savior, the Deliverer of our souls." With Our Father, "Open unto us the door of thy lovingkindness, O blessed Theotokos..." and or "Greatly have mine iniquities multiplied, O Theotokos" and other hymns to Our Lady.
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« Reply #30 on: December 24, 2012, 12:51:56 AM »

I too do both. I love the Jesus Prayer as a spiritual "walking stick" throughout the day, keeping me mindful of the presence of God. I love the Rosary (one that employs scripture as a mean of lectio divina) as a more structured guide to contemplating the mysteries of our redemption. The Rosary is great to keep me rooted in reality and remind me of what's important, and it sort of leads into prayer of the heart and the Jesus Prayer.
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« Reply #31 on: April 17, 2013, 06:46:05 PM »

I was RC and converted to EO, my priest gave me his blessing to continue praying the rosary. Eventually, I learned about the Rule of the Theotokos or St. Seraphim o Sarov, and now pray this, but add a Jesus prayer before each Rejoice.

Rule of the Theotokos by St. Seraphim of Sarov

In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen.

God be merciful to me, a sinner.

Glory to You, our God, glory to You.

O Heavenly King, Comforter, Spirit of Truth, Who is everywhere present and fills all things, O Treasury of every good and Bestower of life: come and dwell in us, and cleanse us from every stain, and save our souls, O Good One.

Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal, have mercy on us. (3X)

Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, both now and ever and unto the ages of ages. Amen.

O Most Holy Trinity, have mercy on us. O Lord, blot out our sins. O Master, pardon our iniquities. O Holy One, visit and heal our infirmities, for Your Name's sake.

Lord, have mercy. (3X.)

Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, both now and ever and unto the ages of ages. Amen.

Our Father, Who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy Name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

Lord, have mercy. (3X.)

Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, both now and ever and unto the ages of ages. Amen.

O come let us worship God our King. O come, let us worship and fall down before Christ our King and God. O come, let us worship and fall down before Christ Himself, our King and God.

I believe in one God, Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages; Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten, not created, of one essence with the Father, through Whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man. He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried; And He rose on the third day, according to the Scriptures. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father; And He will come again with glory to judge the living and dead. His kingdom shall have no end.
And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Creator of life, Who proceeds from the Father, Who together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, Who spoke through the prophets.
In one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.
I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the age to come.
Amen.

O Lord, open my lips, and my mouth shall proclaim Your praise.

First decade: Let us remember the birth of the Mother of God. Let us pray for mothers, fathers, and children.

Rejoice, O Virgin Mother of God Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your
womb, for you have borne the Savior of our souls. (10X)

After: Our Lady, Blessed Mother of God, save and preserve your servants, increase their faith and repentance, and when they die give them rest with the saints in your eternal glory.

Our Father, Who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy Name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

Open unto us the door of your loving-kindness, O most blessed Mother of God. As we set our hope in you, let us not be confounded, but through you may we be delivered from all adversities. For you are the salvation of the Christian race.

Second decade: Let us remember the feast of the Presentation of the Blessed Virgin and Mother of God. Let us pray for those who have lost their way and fallen away from the church.

Rejoice O Virgin Mother of God Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your
womb, for you have borne the Savior of our souls. (10X)

After: Our Lady, Blessed Mother of God, save and preserve and unite or re-unite to the Holy Orthodox Church your servants
who have lost their path and fallen away.

Our Father Our Father, Who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy Name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

Open unto us the door of your loving-kindness, O most blessed Mother of God. As we set our hope in you, let us not be confounded, but through you may we be delivered from all adversities. For you are the salvation of the Christian race

Third decade: Let us remember the Annunciation of the Blessed Mother of God. Let us pray for the soothing of sorrows and the consolation of those who grieve.

Rejoice, O Virgin Mother of God Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your
womb, for you have borne the Savior of our souls. (10X)

After: Our Lady, Blessed Mother of God, soothe our sorrows and send consolation to your servants who are grieving and ill
(names).

Our Father, Who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy Name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

Open unto us the door of your loving-kindness, O most blessed Mother of God. As we set our hope in you, let us not be confounded, but through you may we be delivered from all adversities. For you are the salvation of the Christian race

Fourth decade: Let us remember the meeting of the Blessed Virgin with the righteous Elizabeth. Let us pray for the reunion of the separated, for those whose dear ones or children are living away from them or missing.

Rejoice, O Virgin Mother of God Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your
womb, for you have borne the Savior of our souls. (10X)

After: Our Lady, Blessed Mother of God, unite your servants who are separated.

Our Father Who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy Name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil

Open unto us the door of your loving-kindness, O most blessed Mother of God. As we set our hope in you, let us not be confounded, but through you may we be delivered from all adversities. For you are the salvation of the Christian race

Fifth decade: Let us remember the Birth of Christ. Let us pray for the rebirth of souls, for new life in Christ.

Rejoice, O Virgin Mother of God Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your
womb, for you have borne the Savior of our souls. (10X

After: Our Lady, Blessed Mother of God, grant unto me, who has been baptized in Christ, to be clothed in Christ.

Our Father Who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy Name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil

Open unto us the door of your loving-kindness, O most blessed Mother of God. As we set our hope in you, let us not be confounded, but through you may we be delivered from all adversities. For you are the salvation of the Christian race

Sixth decade: Let us remember the Feast of the Purification of the Lord, and the words uttered by St. Simeon: "Yea, a sword shall pierce through your own soul also." Let us pray that the Mother of God will meet our souls at the hour of our death, and will contrive that we receive the Holy Sacrament with our last breath, and will lead our souls through the terrible torments.

Rejoice, O Virgin Mother of God Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your
womb, for you have borne the Savior of our souls. (10X)

After: Our Lady, Blessed Mother of God, let me receive the Holy Sacrament with my last breath, and lead my soul yourself through the terrible torments.

Our Father Who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy Name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil

Open unto us the door of your loving-kindness, O most blessed Mother of God. As we set our hope in you, let us not be confounded, but through you may we be delivered from all adversities. For you are the salvation of the Christian race

Seventh decade: Let us remember the flight of the Mother of God with the God-Child into Egypt. Let us pray that the Mother of God will help us avoid temptation in this life and deliver us from misfortunes.

Rejoice, O Virgin Mother of God Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your
womb, for you have borne the Savior of our souls. (10X

After: Our Lady, Blessed Mother of God, help me avoid temptation in this life and deliver me from misfortunes.

Our Father Who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy Name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil

Open unto us the door of your loving-kindness, O most blessed Mother of God. As we set our hope in you, let us not be confounded, but through you may we be delivered from all adversities. For you are the salvation of the Christian race

Eighth decade: Let us remember the disappearance of the twelve-year old boy Jesus in Jerusalem and the sorrow of the Mother of God on this account. Let us pray, begging the Mother of God for the constant repetition of the Jesus Prayer.

Rejoice, O Virgin Mother of God Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your
womb, for you have borne the Savior of our souls. (10X

After: Our Lady, Blessed Mother of God, grant to me the unceasing Jesus Prayer.

Our Father Who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy Name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil

Open unto us the door of your loving-kindness, O most blessed Mother of God. As we set our hope in you, let us not be confounded, but through you may we be delivered from all adversities. For you are the salvation of the Christian race

Ninth decade: Let us remember-the miracle performed in Cana of Galilee, when the Lord turned water into wine at the words of the Mother of God: "They have no wine." Let us ask the Mother of God for help in our affairs and deliverance from need.

Rejoice, O Virgin Mother of God Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your
womb, for you have borne the Savior of our souls. (10X

After: Our Lady, Blessed Mother of God, help me in all my affairs and deliver me from every need and sorrow.

Our Father Who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy Name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil

Open unto us the door of your loving-kindness, O most blessed Mother of God. As we set our hope in you, let us not be confounded, but through you may we be delivered from all adversities. For you are the salvation of the Christian race

Tenth decade: Let us remember the Mother of God standing at the Cross of the Lord, when grief pierced through her heart like a sword. Let us pray to the Mother of God for the strengthening of our souls and the banishment of despondency.

Rejoice, O Virgin Mother of God Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your
womb, for you have borne the Savior of our souls. (10X

After: Our Lady, Blessed Mother of God, strengthen my soul and banish my despair.

Our Father Who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy Name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil

Open unto us the door of your loving-kindness, O most blessed Mother of God. As we set our hope in you, let us not be confounded, but through you may we be delivered from all adversities. For you are the salvation of the Christian race

Eleventh decade: Let us remember the Resurrection of Christ and ask the Mother of God in prayer to resurrect our souls and give us new courage for spiritual feats.

Rejoice, O Virgin Mother of God Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your
womb, for you have borne the Savior of our souls. (10X

After: Our Lady, Blessed Mother of God, resurrect my soul and give me constant readiness for spiritual feats.

Our Father Who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy Name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil

Open unto us the door of your loving-kindness, O most blessed Mother of God. As we set our hope in you, let us not be confounded, but through you may we be delivered from all adversities. For you are the salvation of the Christian race

Twelfth decade: Let us remember the Ascension of Christ, at which the Mother of God was present. Let us pray and ask the Queen of Heaven to raise up our souls from earthly and worldly amusements and direct them to striving for higher things.

Rejoice, O Virgin Mother of God Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your
womb, for you have borne the Savior of our souls. (10X

After: Our Lady, Blessed Mother of God, deliver me from worldly thoughts and give me a mind and heart striving towards the salvation of my soul.

Our Father Who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy Name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil

Open unto us the door of your loving-kindness, O most blessed Mother of God. As we set our hope in you, let us not be confounded, but through you may we be delivered from all adversities. For you are the salvation of the Christian race

Thirteenth decade: Let us remember the Upper Room and the descent of the Holy Spirit on the Apostles and the Mother of God.
Let us pray: Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me (Psalm 51).

Rejoice, O Virgin Mother of God Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your
womb, for you have borne the Savior of our souls. (10X

After: Our Lady, Blessed Mother of God, make me a clean temple in which God's Holy Spirit will ever dwell.

Our Father Who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy Name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil

Open unto us the door of your loving-kindness, O most blessed Mother of God. As we set our hope in you, let us not be confounded, but through you may we be delivered from all adversities. For you are the salvation of the Christian race

Fourteenth decade: Let us remember the Dormition of the Blessed Mother of God, and ask for a peaceful and serene end.

Rejoice, O Virgin Mother of God Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your
womb, for you have borne the Savior of our souls. (10X

After: Our Lady, Blessed Mother of God, grant me a peaceful and serene end.

Our Father Who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy Name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil

Open unto us the door of your loving-kindness, O most blessed Mother of God. As we set our hope in you, let us not be confounded, but through you may we be delivered from all adversities. For you are the salvation of the Christian race

Fifteenth decade: Let us remember the glory of the Mother of God, with which the Lord crowned her after her removal from earth to heaven. Let us pray to the Queen of Heaven not to abandon the faithful who are on earth but to defend them from every evil, covering them with her honorable and protecting veil.

Rejoice, O Virgin Mother of God Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your
womb, for you have borne the Savior of our souls. (10X

After: Our Lady, Blessed Mother of God, preserve me from every evil and cover me with your honorable protecting veil.

Our Father Who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy Name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil

Open unto us the door of your loving-kindness, O most blessed Mother of God. As we set our hope in you, let us not be confounded, but through you may we be delivered from all adversities. For you are the salvation of the Christian race

It is truly meet to bless you, O Theotokos, ever blessed and most pure, and the Mother of God. More honorable than the Cherubim, and beyond compare more glorious than the Seraphim, who without corruption gave birth to God the Word, the very Theotokos, you do we magnify.

Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, both now and ever and unto the ages of ages. Amen.

Lord, have mercy. (3X.)

O Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, for the sake of the prayers of Your most pure Mother, our holy and God-bearing fathers, and all the saints, have mercy on us. Amen.


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« Reply #32 on: April 17, 2013, 07:06:01 PM »

The Jesus Prayer because:

a) I am a member of an eastern church and follow their rite-rules.
b) This is a part of my Prayer Rule given to me by my Spiritual Father.
c) It is a prayer of the heart, no thinking and meditation involved.
d) It is free of creating uneccecary images
e) It is the best tool to defeat temptations and get closer to God.


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« Reply #33 on: April 17, 2013, 07:22:16 PM »

I do miss praying the Rosary. I am trying to pray the Jesus prayer more. However, I think the Rosary in its simplest form - the Hail Mary (or Rejoice O Virgin, the Orthodox prayer), Our Father, Glory Be and the Creed in the Orthodox form - is not inherently bad and is fine if done with the approval of one's spiritual father. Once I obtain a spiritual father, I'll ask him about it.
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« Reply #34 on: April 17, 2013, 07:31:42 PM »

When I'm being a good boy, I do both.  When I'm a bad boy, they both slip, and I slip right along with them.  Since there isn't much to explain about my use of the Jesus Prayer, I'll just explain my use of the Rosary.  

I use a fifty-knot prayer rope divided in "decades" (is this a particularly Slavic arrangement?  I've only been able to buy them like this at Russian monasteries).  Using the the standard beginning and concluding prayers of the Syriac tradition, I follow the RC structure of Paters, Aves, and Glorias, but nothing else (e.g., no "Fatima" additions) for the "beads".  

I don't "meditate" on any mysteries, however--I just focus on the words of the prayers as best I can, just as I do with the Jesus Prayer.  Even with an MDiv, I'm not sure I always understand the Orthodox prohibition on RC style meditation (I think there are probably some "safe" methods and other "unsafe" methods).  But since there's a question about it, I just avoid it.  Also, when I was in parochial school and we had to say the Rosary before class on October and May mornings, I could never figure out how they meditated while speaking.  Either I felt the vocal prayer was useless, or the meditation was meaningless.  It's just easier to do it the Orthodox way.  Maybe if I ever become holy, it'll make sense.  Tongue
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« Reply #35 on: April 17, 2013, 08:36:55 PM »

I said both, but the Rosary is not something I pray daily (or even weekly/monthly). I will utilize St. Seraphim's rosary rule when I do, however, with slight modifications, such as prayers at the medal of the BVM (EO theotokia, especially of the feast if it's a Theotokos feast day). I will also pray the Salve, Regina, which I think is beautiful and theologically Orthodox. I even know a ROCOR monastery that will sing it on occasion. But, if you object to it, I think "Beneath Thy Compassion" in place of it is quite beautiful.

I also refrain from any mysteries, and utilize the prayers as arrow prayers, a la the Jesus Prayer, which I (try) to say daily and often carry a chotki with me. I only take my Rosary out of my room on Theotokos feast days, which I will wear in place of my prayer rope.

is this a particularly Slavic arrangement?  I've only been able to buy them like this at Russian monasteries

I think so. The 100 knots Russian ropes I've seen are divided into decades, but Greek ones seem to be dividing into quarters (i.e., a bead every 25 knots). I think Russians also make 150 knot ropes that are divided into decades, which make them identical to RC rosaries, except for the entry beads.
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« Reply #36 on: April 17, 2013, 09:12:23 PM »

The Jesus Prayer (because I'm Orthodox), but I clicked 'both' because I don't want people on here to think I'm hyperdox.
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« Reply #37 on: April 17, 2013, 09:16:17 PM »

http://pinterest.com/pin/231724343299693568

I made my own Rule of the Theotokos prayer rope. It has 15 beads ("misteries") and 150 knots. I had it blessed by my priest. I also made two rosaries using Orthodox knots :-)

http://pinterest.com/pin/231724343299565405/
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« Reply #38 on: April 17, 2013, 10:30:22 PM »

I like the Jesus prayer, IF SAID ONCE.

I believe whole heartedly that God meant "Do not pray in vain repetitions".   

Every now and then, I'll say the prayer if I need God and don't know what else to say.

Otherwise, I think the ropes & rosary work people into trances of sorts, repeating the same prayer over and over and over again... Just as God told them NOT to.  I believe God is capable of hearing the prayer if said once, and I believe that men only fool themselves thinking that saying it X amount of times, is going to bring them closer to God - when really they are just "working themselves up".

Saying a prayer once, with a true and meaningful heart, is how to do it.
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« Reply #39 on: April 17, 2013, 10:45:19 PM »

I too am wholeheartedly against vain repetitions, which is why I try to say the Jesus Prayer over and over and over, so as not to repeat anything in vain.
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« Reply #40 on: April 17, 2013, 10:56:05 PM »

I like the Jesus prayer, IF SAID ONCE.

I believe whole heartedly that God meant "Do not pray in vain repetitions".   

Every now and then, I'll say the prayer if I need God and don't know what else to say.

Otherwise, I think the ropes & rosary work people into trances of sorts, repeating the same prayer over and over and over again... Just as God told them NOT to.  I believe God is capable of hearing the prayer if said once, and I believe that men only fool themselves thinking that saying it X amount of times, is going to bring them closer to God - when really they are just "working themselves up".

Saying a prayer once, with a true and meaningful heart, is how to do it.

Yeah, I think Jesus taught this because God the Father got so annoyed by the angels saying Holy, Holy, Holy, Holy, Holy, Holy, etc. on and on around the throne. Someone had to put a stop to it.
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« Reply #41 on: April 17, 2013, 10:56:48 PM »

I too am wholeheartedly against vain repetitions, which is why I try to say the Jesus Prayer over and over and over, so as not to repeat anything in vain.

The Orthodox response.
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« Reply #42 on: April 17, 2013, 10:57:30 PM »

I believe it is out of anyone's league to state what certain prayers do for people. If saînts of the church have found discipline and dedication to Lord through prayer rules, I will definitely follow on their footsteps.
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« Reply #43 on: April 17, 2013, 10:57:48 PM »

I like the Jesus prayer, IF SAID ONCE.

I believe whole heartedly that God meant "Do not pray in vain repetitions".   

Every now and then, I'll say the prayer if I need God and don't know what else to say.

Otherwise, I think the ropes & rosary work people into trances of sorts, repeating the same prayer over and over and over again... Just as God told them NOT to.  I believe God is capable of hearing the prayer if said once, and I believe that men only fool themselves thinking that saying it X amount of times, is going to bring them closer to God - when really they are just "working themselves up".

Saying a prayer once, with a true and meaningful heart, is how to do it.

Yeah, I think Jesus taught this because God the Father got so annoyed by the angels saying Holy, Holy, Holy, Holy, Holy, Holy, etc. on and on around the throne. Someone had to put a stop to it.

The funny Orthodox response.
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« Reply #44 on: April 17, 2013, 11:33:10 PM »

I like the Jesus prayer, IF SAID ONCE.

I believe whole heartedly that God meant "Do not pray in vain repetitions".   

Every now and then, I'll say the prayer if I need God and don't know what else to say.

Otherwise, I think the ropes & rosary work people into trances of sorts, repeating the same prayer over and over and over again... Just as God told them NOT to.  I believe God is capable of hearing the prayer if said once, and I believe that men only fool themselves thinking that saying it X amount of times, is going to bring them closer to God - when really they are just "working themselves up".

Saying a prayer once, with a true and meaningful heart, is how to do it.

Yeah, I think Jesus taught this because God the Father got so annoyed by the angels saying Holy, Holy, Holy, Holy, Holy, Holy, etc. on and on around the throne. Someone had to put a stop to it.

The funny Orthodox response.

Yeah, but Jesus nonetheless, TAUGHT IT.

I've prayed the Jesus prayer, I've seen the prayer ropes, I've seen people do it.  It is vain & repetitious.  Sorry.
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« Reply #45 on: April 17, 2013, 11:53:38 PM »

I like the Jesus prayer, IF SAID ONCE.

I believe whole heartedly that God meant "Do not pray in vain repetitions".  

Every now and then, I'll say the prayer if I need God and don't know what else to say.

Otherwise, I think the ropes & rosary work people into trances of sorts, repeating the same prayer over and over and over again... Just as God told them NOT to.  I believe God is capable of hearing the prayer if said once, and I believe that men only fool themselves thinking that saying it X amount of times, is going to bring them closer to God - when really they are just "working themselves up".

Saying a prayer once, with a true and meaningful heart, is how to do it.

Yeah, I think Jesus taught this because God the Father got so annoyed by the angels saying Holy, Holy, Holy, Holy, Holy, Holy, etc. on and on around the throne. Someone had to put a stop to it.

The funny Orthodox response.

Yeah, but Jesus nonetheless, TAUGHT IT.

I've prayed the Jesus prayer, I've seen the prayer ropes, I've seen people do it.  It is vain & repetitious.  Sorry.

Don't you mean Yeshua?

Lord have mercy (x40).
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« Reply #46 on: April 18, 2013, 01:40:46 AM »

I like the Jesus prayer, IF SAID ONCE.

I believe whole heartedly that God meant "Do not pray in vain repetitions".   

Every now and then, I'll say the prayer if I need God and don't know what else to say.

Otherwise, I think the ropes & rosary work people into trances of sorts, repeating the same prayer over and over and over again... Just as God told them NOT to.  I believe God is capable of hearing the prayer if said once, and I believe that men only fool themselves thinking that saying it X amount of times, is going to bring them closer to God - when really they are just "working themselves up".

Saying a prayer once, with a true and meaningful heart, is how to do it.

Yeah, I think Jesus taught this because God the Father got so annoyed by the angels saying Holy, Holy, Holy, Holy, Holy, Holy, etc. on and on around the throne. Someone had to put a stop to it.

The funny Orthodox response.

Yeah, but Jesus nonetheless, TAUGHT IT.

And you misunderstand it.

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« Reply #47 on: April 18, 2013, 01:47:42 AM »

"When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.

And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words. So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him."

YeshuaisIam, why did Jesus identify meaningless repetition with the Gentiles, and not the hypocrites (Pharisees)? The Pharisees repeated prayers.
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« Reply #48 on: April 18, 2013, 02:07:55 AM »

I like the Jesus prayer, IF SAID ONCE.

I believe whole heartedly that God meant "Do not pray in vain repetitions".   
...Saying a prayer once, with a true and meaningful heart, is how to do it.
I don't believe you.
How many times do you say "Lord have mercy" at Divine Liturgy? How many times do you cross yourself at liturgy saying Father, Son and Holy Spirit?
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« Reply #49 on: April 18, 2013, 02:11:43 AM »

I like the Jesus prayer, IF SAID ONCE.

I believe whole heartedly that God meant "Do not pray in vain repetitions".   
...Saying a prayer once, with a true and meaningful heart, is how to do it.
I don't believe you.
How many times do you say "Lord have mercy" at Divine Liturgy? How many times do you cross yourself at liturgy saying Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

Stanley, many of yeshuaisiam's views do not concur with Orthodox teachings.
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« Reply #50 on: April 18, 2013, 03:25:05 AM »

I like the Jesus prayer, IF SAID ONCE.

I believe whole heartedly that God meant "Do not pray in vain repetitions".   

Every now and then, I'll say the prayer if I need God and don't know what else to say.

Otherwise, I think the ropes & rosary work people into trances of sorts, repeating the same prayer over and over and over again... Just as God told them NOT to.  I believe God is capable of hearing the prayer if said once, and I believe that men only fool themselves thinking that saying it X amount of times, is going to bring them closer to God - when really they are just "working themselves up".

Saying a prayer once, with a true and meaningful heart, is how to do it.

Quote from: Lukas 11:5-13 OJB
5 And Rebbe Melech HaMoshiach said to them, Who among you will have a chaver and will come to him at chatzot halailah (midnight), and say to him, Chaver, lend me shalosh kikrot (loaves);

6 Because a chaver of mine has come from a journey to me and I have nothing to set before him;

7 And from inside he shall reply, saying, Do not bother me; the delet has already been shut, and my yeladim and I are already in bed; I cannot get up and give to you anything.

8 I say to you, even if he will not get up and give him anything, because he is his chaver, at least because of his keseder (constantly) persistent importunity he will get up and give to him as much as he needs.

9 And I tell you [when you daven], ask, and it shall be given to you; seek and you shall find; knock and it shall be opened to you.

10 For everyone asking receives; and he who is seeking, finds; and to the one knocking, it shall be opened.

11 And what Abba among you is there who, if his ben asks for a dag (fish), instead of a dag (fish) will give to him a nachash (snake)?

12 Or if the ben will ask for a beytzah (egg), will the av give him an akrav (scorpion)?

13 If, therefore, you, though you are ra’im (evil ones), have da’as (knowledge) of how to give matanot tovot (good gifts) to your yeladim, how much more will HaAv shbaShomayim give the Ruach Hakodesh to the ones asking him.
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« Reply #51 on: April 18, 2013, 04:22:49 AM »

The Jesus Prayer, because I am Orthodox not Roman Catholic.

I don't have anything against the Rosary Prayer, I just have never used it and have never felt the need.
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« Reply #52 on: April 18, 2013, 05:27:34 AM »

Kerdy: I can share some experience as I was a RC for 2 1/2 years. (that was before I realized that home was not home, but the wrong house).
The rosary works for meditation and thinking-reflecting. But for me it didn`t work as a prayer from the heart.

Metropolitan Kallistos Ware says it so well in his book The Orthodox Way: the prayer must come from the heart. Just pray and do not think.
It was a needed eyeopener for me.
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« Reply #53 on: April 18, 2013, 01:48:14 PM »

Cyrillic slayed it.
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« Reply #54 on: April 18, 2013, 01:58:35 PM »

I like the Jesus prayer, IF SAID ONCE.

I believe whole heartedly that God meant "Do not pray in vain repetitions".   

Every now and then, I'll say the prayer if I need God and don't know what else to say.

Otherwise, I think the ropes & rosary work people into trances of sorts, repeating the same prayer over and over and over again... Just as God told them NOT to.  I believe God is capable of hearing the prayer if said once, and I believe that men only fool themselves thinking that saying it X amount of times, is going to bring them closer to God - when really they are just "working themselves up".

Saying a prayer once, with a true and meaningful heart, is how to do it.

Yeah, I think Jesus taught this because God the Father got so annoyed by the angels saying Holy, Holy, Holy, Holy, Holy, Holy, etc. on and on around the throne. Someone had to put a stop to it.

The funny Orthodox response.

Yeah, but Jesus nonetheless, TAUGHT IT.

I've prayed the Jesus prayer, I've seen the prayer ropes, I've seen people do it.  It is vain & repetitious.  Sorry.

No need to apologize.  Just explain why praying the Jesus Prayer more than once is "vain repetition".  Repetition, yes, but what makes it "vain"?
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« Reply #55 on: April 18, 2013, 02:11:45 PM »

I like the Jesus prayer, IF SAID ONCE.

I believe whole heartedly that God meant "Do not pray in vain repetitions".  

Every now and then, I'll say the prayer if I need God and don't know what else to say.

Otherwise, I think the ropes & rosary work people into trances of sorts, repeating the same prayer over and over and over again... Just as God told them NOT to.  I believe God is capable of hearing the prayer if said once, and I believe that men only fool themselves thinking that saying it X amount of times, is going to bring them closer to God - when really they are just "working themselves up".

Saying a prayer once, with a true and meaningful heart, is how to do it.

Yeah, I think Jesus taught this because God the Father got so annoyed by the angels saying Holy, Holy, Holy, Holy, Holy, Holy, etc. on and on around the throne. Someone had to put a stop to it.

The funny Orthodox response.

Yeah, but Jesus nonetheless, TAUGHT IT.

I've prayed the Jesus prayer, I've seen the prayer ropes, I've seen people do it.  It is vain & repetitious.  Sorry.

Don't you mean Yeshua?

Lord have mercy (x40).

Yes, for the sake of argument, it is Yeshua, who taught not to say Lord have mercy x40.
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« Reply #56 on: April 18, 2013, 02:13:54 PM »

I like the Jesus prayer, IF SAID ONCE.

I believe whole heartedly that God meant "Do not pray in vain repetitions".  

Every now and then, I'll say the prayer if I need God and don't know what else to say.

Otherwise, I think the ropes & rosary work people into trances of sorts, repeating the same prayer over and over and over again... Just as God told them NOT to.  I believe God is capable of hearing the prayer if said once, and I believe that men only fool themselves thinking that saying it X amount of times, is going to bring them closer to God - when really they are just "working themselves up".

Saying a prayer once, with a true and meaningful heart, is how to do it.

Quote from: Lukas 11:5-13 OJB
5 And Rebbe Melech HaMoshiach said to them, Who among you will have a chaver and will come to him at chatzot halailah (midnight), and say to him, Chaver, lend me shalosh kikrot (loaves);

6 Because a chaver of mine has come from a journey to me and I have nothing to set before him;

7 And from inside he shall reply, saying, Do not bother me; the delet has already been shut, and my yeladim and I are already in bed; I cannot get up and give to you anything.

8 I say to you, even if he will not get up and give him anything, because he is his chaver, at least because of his keseder (constantly) persistent importunity he will get up and give to him as much as he needs.

9 And I tell you [when you daven], ask, and it shall be given to you; seek and you shall find; knock and it shall be opened to you.

10 For everyone asking receives; and he who is seeking, finds; and to the one knocking, it shall be opened.

11 And what Abba among you is there who, if his ben asks for a dag (fish), instead of a dag (fish) will give to him a nachash (snake)?

12 Or if the ben will ask for a beytzah (egg), will the av give him an akrav (scorpion)?

13 If, therefore, you, though you are ra’im (evil ones), have da’as (knowledge) of how to give matanot tovot (good gifts) to your yeladim, how much more will HaAv shbaShomayim give the Ruach Hakodesh to the ones asking him.

Exactly my point.  

By repeating the Jesus Prayer, they have the knowledge not to repeat like this, yet do it anyway.

This is called DISOBEDIENCE to God.  

Say it once, I have no problem, but saying it multiple times just works people up into delusional trances, and is actually kind of odd.... As if God didn't hear you.
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« Reply #57 on: April 18, 2013, 02:16:41 PM »

Yes, for the sake of argument, it is Yeshua, who taught not to say Lord have mercy x40.

Quote from:  Matthew 26:40-44
And he came unto the disciples, and found them asleep, and said unto Peter: "What, could you not watch with me one hour? Watch and pray, that you enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak."

He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying: "O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, your will be done."

And he came and found them asleep again: for their eyes were heavy. And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.
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« Reply #58 on: April 18, 2013, 02:16:46 PM »

I like the Jesus prayer, IF SAID ONCE.

I believe whole heartedly that God meant "Do not pray in vain repetitions".   
...Saying a prayer once, with a true and meaningful heart, is how to do it.
I don't believe you.
How many times do you say "Lord have mercy" at Divine Liturgy? How many times do you cross yourself at liturgy saying Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

Yes...
Prayers are in conjunction with what the priest is saying

"Lord have mercy on the sick and suffering"
"Lord have mercy on those at war & armed forces everywhere"
etc.

"In the name of the father, son, & holy spirit", is a declaration of who you are praying to.


Repeating "The Jesus Prayer" over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over........
Is disobeying God.
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« Reply #59 on: April 18, 2013, 02:24:39 PM »

Yes, for the sake of argument, it is Yeshua, who taught not to say Lord have mercy x40.

Quote from:  Matthew 26:40-44
And he came unto the disciples, and found them asleep, and said unto Peter: "What, could you not watch with me one hour? Watch and pray, that you enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak."

He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying: "O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, your will be done."

And he came and found them asleep again: for their eyes were heavy. And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.

Yes, the third time.  Trinity anybody?

Let's do a 100 knot prayer rope now.... ?

What did God say?
Matthew 6:7
7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

I've practiced/used the prayer rope as an Orthodox Christian.  I've heard the apologetics.  I've read about the Jesus prayer.  I've been in monasteries witnessing monks use the prayer rope.  I absolutely believe it to be repetitious prayer.   I disagree with this facet of Eastern Orthodoxy.  I know it seems I cherry pick and Orthodoxy seems to come in an "all or nothing" deal.  

Nonetheless, it is repetitious, many words, and vain - something GOD commanded us NOT to pray.

I have no beef with the Jesus prayer, I even say it.  But I say it once, when I can think of nothing else...  In those quick situations when I need a prayer but can't think/busy etc.  I believe it is a very powerful and beautiful, yet simple prayer.  But I will not disobey God and repeat it over and over.

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« Reply #60 on: April 18, 2013, 02:30:07 PM »

Yes, for the sake of argument, it is Yeshua, who taught not to say Lord have mercy x40.

Quote from:  Matthew 26:40-44
And he came unto the disciples, and found them asleep, and said unto Peter: "What, could you not watch with me one hour? Watch and pray, that you enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak."

He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying: "O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, your will be done."

And he came and found them asleep again: for their eyes were heavy. And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.

Yes, the third time.  Trinity anybody?

Let's do a 100 knot prayer rope now.... ?

What did God say?
Matthew 6:7
7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.



So, all those saints, all those Athonite (and other) monks, all those nuns, bishops, priests, pilgrims, and lay people are (or have been), by saying the Jesus Prayer more than one time, disobeying God?  That's quite an accusation!!

And you STILL haven't said what makes repeating a prayer more than one time "vain".  (I once had an Orthodox priest tell me, in a group study context, what was meant by that, but for the life of me, I can't remember what he said  Sad.  I remember though that he did say it is perfectly alright to repeat the Jesus Prayer, and even encouraged folks to do so.  Uh oh...bad boy!)
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« Reply #61 on: April 18, 2013, 02:34:16 PM »

Repeating "The Jesus Prayer" over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over........
Is disobeying God.

He taught that we should forgive our brother if he sins against us 77 times a day (Matthew 18:21). I should be surprised if he were annoyed with us asking him to do the same 40 times.  

"For a just man shall fall seven times and rise again." (Prov. 24:16)

"I praise you seven times a day." (Ps. 118:164)

"I will bless the Lord at all times; his praise shall continually be in my mouth." (Ps. 33:2)

"Pray without ceasing." (1 Thess. 5:17)

How do you do this without repetition?

People who prefer spontaneous prayer - pentecostals, for instance - would have their "original" prayer jargon, which they repeat all the time as well.
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« Reply #62 on: April 18, 2013, 02:34:26 PM »

Yes, for the sake of argument, it is Yeshua, who taught not to say Lord have mercy x40.

Quote from:  Matthew 26:40-44
And he came unto the disciples, and found them asleep, and said unto Peter: "What, could you not watch with me one hour? Watch and pray, that you enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak."

He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying: "O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, your will be done."

And he came and found them asleep again: for their eyes were heavy. And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.

Yes, the third time.  Trinity anybody?

Let's do a 100 knot prayer rope now.... ?

What did God say?
Matthew 6:7
7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.



So, all those saints, all those Athonite (and other) monks, all those nuns, bishops, priests, pilgrims, and lay people are (or have been), by saying the Jesus Prayer more than one time, disobeying God?  That's quite an accusation!!

And you STILL haven't said what makes repeating a prayer more than one time "vain".

Absolutely.

Show me the Jesus prayer used between 100-200 A.D.   Things like prayer ropes did not exist.   What happened is people CONVINCED them they need to repeat a prayer.

Definition of vain:
    1. Having or showing an excessively high opinion of one's appearance, abilities, or worth.
    2. Producing no result; useless: "a vain attempt to sleep".

Scripture Matthew 6:7
7 But when you pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8Be not you therefore like to them: for your Father knows what things you have need of, before you ask him.

Look at definition 2.

It is a completely vain to pray like that WHEN YOUR FATHER KNOWS THE THINGS YOU NEED, before you ask them.
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« Reply #63 on: April 18, 2013, 02:34:50 PM »

Am I the only one who finds it funny that the opposition to "vain repetition" is being expressed through repetition (namely, repeated statements about the error of vain repetition)?  It seems that yeshuaisiam doesn't think this repetition is vain, but on the contrary has meaning and bears repeating even though the essential message has not changed.  And yet, repetitive prayer is so bad?  

The same Jesus who spoke against "vain repetition" clearly didn't have a problem with repetitive prayer.  It's all over the Bible, and he even practiced it.  Human beings are creatures of habit, and without repetition, we'd fall apart, physiologically and otherwise.  As another poster pointed out, the real issue is what makes the repetition vain versus life-giving.  And I don't think the ultimate criterion for determining this is "because I said so" or "because yeshuaisiam said so".    
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« Reply #64 on: April 18, 2013, 02:38:10 PM »

I voted both.
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« Reply #65 on: April 18, 2013, 02:38:21 PM »

Repeating "The Jesus Prayer" over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over........
Is disobeying God.

He taught that we should forgive our brother if he sins against us 77 times a day (Matthew 18:21). I should be surprised if he were annoyed with us asking him to do the same 40 times.  

"For a just man shall fall seven times and rise again." (Prov. 24:16)

"I praise you seven times a day." (Ps. 118:164)

"I will bless the Lord at all times; his praise shall continually be in my mouth." (Ps. 33:2)

"Pray without ceasing." (1 Thess. 5:17)

How do you do this without repetition?

People who prefer spontaneous prayer - pentecostals, for instance - would have their "original" prayer jargon, which they repeat all the time as well.

This argument doesn't hold merit.

Forgiveness is not repeating a prayer.
Praising God 7 times a day does not mean repeating yourself OVER AND OVER AND OVER.
Praising the Lord at all times & praying without ceasing is close to the same thing, all without repetition.

Look, there is one thing to pray for your family.... The next day pray for your family again...

But this isn't how the Jesus prayer is used.

They even make ropes to give you "much words".  Over and over and over again.

It's so simple, I just don't see the apologetics behind this.   It's just going against what God commanded of us.  It's repetitious, x100, often at least 3x times a day.  vain attempts that the words may be heard, when God knows all along what you need.
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« Reply #66 on: April 18, 2013, 02:39:33 PM »

But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do:

It's your contention that repeating the Jesus prayer is vain. As for heathen, I hope no one's so foolish to consider it that.

The heathens of Our Lord's day weren't praying the Jesus prayer - except maybe for the Syro-Phoenician woman.  
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« Reply #67 on: April 18, 2013, 02:40:43 PM »

Am I the only one who finds it funny that the opposition to "vain repetition" is being expressed through repetition (namely, repeated statements about the error of vain repetition)?  It seems that yeshuaisiam doesn't think this repetition is vain, but on the contrary has meaning and bears repeating even though the essential message has not changed.  And yet, repetitive prayer is so bad?  

The same Jesus who spoke against "vain repetition" clearly didn't have a problem with repetitive prayer.  It's all over the Bible, and he even practiced it.  Human beings are creatures of habit, and without repetition, we'd fall apart, physiologically and otherwise.  As another poster pointed out, the real issue is what makes the repetition vain versus life-giving.  And I don't think the ultimate criterion for determining this is "because I said so" or "because yeshuaisiam said so".    

It's actually "not all over the bible".

There were prayers said "3 times" which represent the trinity.  Including "holy holy holy"...

This is NOT a person

Grabbing a prayer rope with alloted knots "to make sure" to get this many prayers said.
Saying it (often) 100 times over and over....
Making vain attempts that God hears your prayers, when he knows exactly what you need.  That's what HE SAID, not what I said.
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« Reply #68 on: April 18, 2013, 02:42:19 PM »

Making vain attempts that God hears your prayers, when he knows exactly what you need.  That's what HE SAID, not what I said.

Why pray to begin with if God knows what we want already?
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« Reply #69 on: April 18, 2013, 02:42:31 PM »

It is a completely vain to pray like that WHEN YOUR FATHER KNOWS THE THINGS YOU NEED, before you ask them.

Of course, this begs the question: why bother praying at all if God knows what we're going to ask before we ask, and knows better than we do what we need?  Even the first prayer you make to God about a given issue would already be a sort of repetition...to God.  So why bother praying at all?  

Sometimes we fight so strongly for what we think is the gospel that we're actually making the devil's case for him.  
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« Reply #70 on: April 18, 2013, 02:42:59 PM »

Yes, for the sake of argument, it is Yeshua, who taught not to say Lord have mercy x40.

Quote from:  Matthew 26:40-44
And he came unto the disciples, and found them asleep, and said unto Peter: "What, could you not watch with me one hour? Watch and pray, that you enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak."

He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying: "O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, your will be done."

And he came and found them asleep again: for their eyes were heavy. And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.

Yes, the third time.  Trinity anybody?

Let's do a 100 knot prayer rope now.... ?

What did God say?
Matthew 6:7
7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.



So, all those saints, all those Athonite (and other) monks, all those nuns, bishops, priests, pilgrims, and lay people are (or have been), by saying the Jesus Prayer more than one time, disobeying God?  That's quite an accusation!!

And you STILL haven't said what makes repeating a prayer more than one time "vain".

Absolutely.

Show me the Jesus prayer used between 100-200 A.D.   Things like prayer ropes did not exist.   What happened is people CONVINCED them they need to repeat a prayer.

Definition of vain:
    1. Having or showing an excessively high opinion of one's appearance, abilities, or worth.
    2. Producing no result; useless: "a vain attempt to sleep".

Scripture Matthew 6:7
7 But when you pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8Be not you therefore like to them: for your Father knows what things you have need of, before you ask him.

Look at definition 2.

It is a completely vain to pray like that WHEN YOUR FATHER KNOWS THE THINGS YOU NEED, before you ask them.


How are YOU to judge whether someone else's prayer is useless or that it produces no result??

How do YOU know the heart of the person praying to be able to determine their opinion or appraisal of themself or the worthiness of their action of prayer?

Re: the bolded part, if you just go by that criteria, ALL prayer is "vain" because our Father always knows the things we need before we ask them.  Always.  He wouldn't be God otherwise.
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« Reply #71 on: April 18, 2013, 02:44:05 PM »

They even make ropes to give you "much words".  Over and over and over again.

That's just it! The words are not "much" - they were just 5 initially: Kyrie Iisou Christe, eleison me.

You don't understand what polylogia is. It's empty talk, without mind and heart. Now, that's idle indeed.
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« Reply #72 on: April 18, 2013, 02:45:32 PM »

But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do:

It's your contention that repeating the Jesus prayer is vain. As for heathen, I hope no one's so foolish to consider it that.

The heathens of Our Lord's day weren't praying the Jesus prayer - except maybe for the Syro-Phoenician woman.  

He wasn't speaking of the heathens praying.  He was speaking to his followers, and teaching them NOT to do these things.  

I posted the definition of vain.

2. Producing no result; useless: "a vain attempt to sleep".

Christ was speaking (using a heathen as example) that they babble & repeat stuff over and over, thinking their words would be heard - when all along God knows what you need.

You don't need to repeat yourself over and over... God knows.  Repeating it is vain attempts "thinking they would be heard".


I really believe people understand this... Unfortunately, I know it's an "all or none" package deal... So its easier to make excuses for this.  Again, it's a beautiful prayer, I say it myself.  Simple, and perfect in many situations.  But over and over again is wrong, as God told us not to do this.
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« Reply #73 on: April 18, 2013, 02:48:26 PM »

I like the Jesus prayer, IF SAID ONCE.

I believe whole heartedly that God meant "Do not pray in vain repetitions".   
...Saying a prayer once, with a true and meaningful heart, is how to do it.
I don't believe you.
How many times do you say "Lord have mercy" at Divine Liturgy? How many times do you cross yourself at liturgy saying Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

Yes...
Prayers are in conjunction with what the priest is saying

"Lord have mercy on the sick and suffering"
"Lord have mercy on those at war & armed forces everywhere"
etc.

"In the name of the father, son, & holy spirit", is a declaration of who you are praying to.


Repeating "The Jesus Prayer" over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over........
Is disobeying God.
At several times during the liturgy, it is indicated to pray "Lord have mercy" three times consecutively one after another. Why repeat the prayer three times and not only once?
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« Reply #74 on: April 18, 2013, 02:50:02 PM »

I prefer the Jesus Prayer, but mostly because I just don't really feel the sense of closeness with the Theotokos that so many others feel. I pray that I will someday.
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« Reply #75 on: April 18, 2013, 02:50:23 PM »

Yes, for the sake of argument, it is Yeshua, who taught not to say Lord have mercy x40.

Quote from:  Matthew 26:40-44
And he came unto the disciples, and found them asleep, and said unto Peter: "What, could you not watch with me one hour? Watch and pray, that you enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak."

He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying: "O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, your will be done."

And he came and found them asleep again: for their eyes were heavy. And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.

Yes, the third time.  Trinity anybody?

Let's do a 100 knot prayer rope now.... ?

What did God say?
Matthew 6:7
7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.



So, all those saints, all those Athonite (and other) monks, all those nuns, bishops, priests, pilgrims, and lay people are (or have been), by saying the Jesus Prayer more than one time, disobeying God?  That's quite an accusation!!

And you STILL haven't said what makes repeating a prayer more than one time "vain".

Absolutely.

Show me the Jesus prayer used between 100-200 A.D.   Things like prayer ropes did not exist.   What happened is people CONVINCED them they need to repeat a prayer.

Definition of vain:
    1. Having or showing an excessively high opinion of one's appearance, abilities, or worth.
    2. Producing no result; useless: "a vain attempt to sleep".

Scripture Matthew 6:7
7 But when you pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8Be not you therefore like to them: for your Father knows what things you have need of, before you ask him.

Look at definition 2.

It is a completely vain to pray like that WHEN YOUR FATHER KNOWS THE THINGS YOU NEED, before you ask them.


How are YOU to judge whether someone else's prayer is useless or that it produces no result??

How do YOU know the heart of the person praying to be able to determine their opinion or appraisal of themself or the worthiness of their action of prayer?

Re: the bolded part, if you just go by that criteria, ALL prayer is "vain" because our Father always knows the things we need before we ask them.  Always.  He wouldn't be God otherwise.

No, REPEATED prayer is vain.

He knows.  We pray for it.

Also you are twisting what I am saying.   I don't judge if prayer is useless.   I try to follow what Christ said.

100x prayer ropes, 3x a day.... no not vain.   Don't skip a knot or bead.

I guess people think God is dumb and doesn't know.  Beats me.
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« Reply #76 on: April 18, 2013, 02:50:29 PM »

Making vain attempts that God hears your prayers, when he knows exactly what you need.  That's what HE SAID, not what I said.

God knows that we need his forgiveness. We, on the other hand, keep forgetting it all the time. And the Jesus prayer is all about constantly reminding ourselves who we are and who he is...
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« Reply #77 on: April 18, 2013, 02:50:35 PM »

Am I the only one who finds it funny that the opposition to "vain repetition" is being expressed through repetition (namely, repeated statements about the error of vain repetition)?  It seems that yeshuaisiam doesn't think this repetition is vain, but on the contrary has meaning and bears repeating even though the essential message has not changed.  And yet, repetitive prayer is so bad?  

The same Jesus who spoke against "vain repetition" clearly didn't have a problem with repetitive prayer.  It's all over the Bible, and he even practiced it.  Human beings are creatures of habit, and without repetition, we'd fall apart, physiologically and otherwise.  As another poster pointed out, the real issue is what makes the repetition vain versus life-giving.  And I don't think the ultimate criterion for determining this is "because I said so" or "because yeshuaisiam said so".    

It's actually "not all over the bible".

There were prayers said "3 times" which represent the trinity.  Including "holy holy holy"...

This is NOT a person

Grabbing a prayer rope with alloted knots "to make sure" to get this many prayers said.
Saying it (often) 100 times over and over....
Making vain attempts that God hears your prayers, when he knows exactly what you need.  That's what HE SAID, not what I said.

In the danish Bible, it is translated as "Don't make your mouth run wild", which basically means not to speak (or in this case, pray) without thinking. The Jesus Prayer is not this, it is the exact opposite. Paul commands us to pray unceasingly. By praying the Jesus Prayer and being aware of what we are saying. Our prayer becomes neither vain nor wild, but controlled, sober and personal.  
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« Reply #78 on: April 18, 2013, 02:50:56 PM »

I like the Jesus prayer, IF SAID ONCE.

I believe whole heartedly that God meant "Do not pray in vain repetitions".   
...Saying a prayer once, with a true and meaningful heart, is how to do it.
I don't believe you.
How many times do you say "Lord have mercy" at Divine Liturgy? How many times do you cross yourself at liturgy saying Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

Yes...
Prayers are in conjunction with what the priest is saying

"Lord have mercy on the sick and suffering"
"Lord have mercy on those at war & armed forces everywhere"
etc.

"In the name of the father, son, & holy spirit", is a declaration of who you are praying to.


Repeating "The Jesus Prayer" over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over........
Is disobeying God.
At several times during the liturgy, it is indicated to pray "Lord have mercy" three times consecutively one after another. Why repeat the prayer three times and not only once?

Trinity.  Way different than 100x prayer rope.
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« Reply #79 on: April 18, 2013, 02:52:49 PM »

Am I the only one who finds it funny that the opposition to "vain repetition" is being expressed through repetition (namely, repeated statements about the error of vain repetition)?  It seems that yeshuaisiam doesn't think this repetition is vain, but on the contrary has meaning and bears repeating even though the essential message has not changed.  And yet, repetitive prayer is so bad?  

The same Jesus who spoke against "vain repetition" clearly didn't have a problem with repetitive prayer.  It's all over the Bible, and he even practiced it.  Human beings are creatures of habit, and without repetition, we'd fall apart, physiologically and otherwise.  As another poster pointed out, the real issue is what makes the repetition vain versus life-giving.  And I don't think the ultimate criterion for determining this is "because I said so" or "because yeshuaisiam said so".    

It's actually "not all over the bible".

There were prayers said "3 times" which represent the trinity.  Including "holy holy holy"...

This is NOT a person

Grabbing a prayer rope with alloted knots "to make sure" to get this many prayers said.
Saying it (often) 100 times over and over....
Making vain attempts that God hears your prayers, when he knows exactly what you need.  That's what HE SAID, not what I said.

In the danish Bible, it is translated as "Don't make your mouth run wild", which basically means not to speak (or in this case, pray) without thinking. The Jesus Prayer is not this, it is the exact opposite. Paul commands us to pray unceasingly. By praying the jesus Prayer and being aware of what we are saying. Our prayer becomes neither vain nor wild, but controlled, sober and personal.  

I would find praying the Jesus prayer to become more "mindless" as it repeats, than praying without ceasing, where I must focus on what I am saying.
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« Reply #80 on: April 18, 2013, 02:54:10 PM »

Am I the only one who finds it funny that the opposition to "vain repetition" is being expressed through repetition (namely, repeated statements about the error of vain repetition)?  It seems that yeshuaisiam doesn't think this repetition is vain, but on the contrary has meaning and bears repeating even though the essential message has not changed.  And yet, repetitive prayer is so bad?  

The same Jesus who spoke against "vain repetition" clearly didn't have a problem with repetitive prayer.  It's all over the Bible, and he even practiced it.  Human beings are creatures of habit, and without repetition, we'd fall apart, physiologically and otherwise.  As another poster pointed out, the real issue is what makes the repetition vain versus life-giving.  And I don't think the ultimate criterion for determining this is "because I said so" or "because yeshuaisiam said so".    

It's actually "not all over the bible".

There were prayers said "3 times" which represent the trinity.  Including "holy holy holy"...

This is NOT a person

Grabbing a prayer rope with alloted knots "to make sure" to get this many prayers said.
Saying it (often) 100 times over and over....
Making vain attempts that God hears your prayers, when he knows exactly what you need.  That's what HE SAID, not what I said.

In the danish Bible, it is translated as "Don't make your mouth run wild", which basically means not to speak (or in this case, pray) without thinking. The Jesus Prayer is not this, it is the exact opposite. Paul commands us to pray unceasingly. By praying the jesus Prayer and being aware of what we are saying. Our prayer becomes neither vain nor wild, but controlled, sober and personal.  

I would find praying the Jesus prayer to become more "mindless" as it repeats, than praying without ceasing, where I must focus on what I am saying.


You may find it to be so, but that has nothing to do with the prayer itself.
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« Reply #81 on: April 18, 2013, 02:55:12 PM »

Am I the only one who finds it funny that the opposition to "vain repetition" is being expressed through repetition (namely, repeated statements about the error of vain repetition)?  It seems that yeshuaisiam doesn't think this repetition is vain, but on the contrary has meaning and bears repeating even though the essential message has not changed.  And yet, repetitive prayer is so bad?  

The same Jesus who spoke against "vain repetition" clearly didn't have a problem with repetitive prayer.  It's all over the Bible, and he even practiced it.  Human beings are creatures of habit, and without repetition, we'd fall apart, physiologically and otherwise.  As another poster pointed out, the real issue is what makes the repetition vain versus life-giving.  And I don't think the ultimate criterion for determining this is "because I said so" or "because yeshuaisiam said so".    

It's actually "not all over the bible".

There were prayers said "3 times" which represent the trinity.  Including "holy holy holy"...

This is NOT a person

Grabbing a prayer rope with alloted knots "to make sure" to get this many prayers said.
Saying it (often) 100 times over and over....
Making vain attempts that God hears your prayers, when he knows exactly what you need.  That's what HE SAID, not what I said.

Honestly, this conversation really makes me sad.  

Repetitious prayer is all over Scripture, and not all of it is simply a matter of "3 times = Trinity".  Open up the Psalter.  But if you can't see it even when it's pointed out to you, then you can't see it, what can I say?  I'll pray for you once.  

Ultimately, you and I are not the judge of whose prayer is vain and whose isn't--God judges that.  We can talk about what constitutes vanity, but we can't judge the heart--God does that.  If someone's repetitive prayer is not vain but brings them close to God and draws God close to them, why should I stop that based on my faulty understanding of the gospel?  I would then be like those Pharisees Christ repeatedly lambasted for not entering the Kingdom of God themselves and prohibiting those who want to enter from doing so.  
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« Reply #82 on: April 18, 2013, 02:56:30 PM »

Producing no result; useless: "a vain attempt to sleep".

If the Jesus prayer produced "no result" for me, I should wonder why. Is it the prayer or is it me?

You chose the easy way out of this "dilemma".  Sad  

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« Reply #83 on: April 18, 2013, 02:57:51 PM »

It is a completely vain to pray like that WHEN YOUR FATHER KNOWS THE THINGS YOU NEED, before you ask them.

Of course, this begs the question: why bother praying at all if God knows what we're going to ask before we ask, and knows better than we do what we need?  Even the first prayer you make to God about a given issue would already be a sort of repetition...to God.  So why bother praying at all?  

Sometimes we fight so strongly for what we think is the gospel that we're actually making the devil's case for him.  

I believe God knows what we need all along, and a prayer expresses our faith, love, and need to be with God.
By asking him once, we have shown our need for God.

By repeating it over and over, it becomes vain, as we believe our results of "many words", can "influence God/convince God/bring God Closer/we become closer to God" etc.

God knows, through faith we ask of him.

But he doesn't need to be asked 100x a day, 3x a day.   Be sure not to skip a knot... That may be bad.
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« Reply #84 on: April 18, 2013, 02:59:19 PM »

By asking him once, we have shown our need for God.

So it's just following procedure?
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« Reply #85 on: April 18, 2013, 03:00:06 PM »

Producing no result; useless: "a vain attempt to sleep".

If the Jesus prayer produced "no result" for me, I should wonder why. Is it the prayer or is it me?

You chose the easy way out of this "dilemma".  Sad  



It's not the Jesus prayer, it's the repeating of it over and over, back to back, thinking it will "do something more" than saying it once.

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« Reply #86 on: April 18, 2013, 03:02:03 PM »

By asking him once, we have shown our need for God.

So it's just following procedure?

Not exactly.   "Ask seek knock".   But once the door is opened, don't keep knocking thinking it's going to be better somehow.
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« Reply #87 on: April 18, 2013, 03:03:37 PM »

I like the Jesus prayer, IF SAID ONCE.

I believe whole heartedly that God meant "Do not pray in vain repetitions".   
...Saying a prayer once, with a true and meaningful heart, is how to do it.
I don't believe you.
How many times do you say "Lord have mercy" at Divine Liturgy? How many times do you cross yourself at liturgy saying Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

Yes...
Prayers are in conjunction with what the priest is saying

"Lord have mercy on the sick and suffering"
"Lord have mercy on those at war & armed forces everywhere"
etc.

"In the name of the father, son, & holy spirit", is a declaration of who you are praying to.


Repeating "The Jesus Prayer" over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over........
Is disobeying God.
At several times during the liturgy, it is indicated to pray "Lord have mercy" three times consecutively one after another. Why repeat the prayer three times and not only once?

Trinity.  Way different than 100x prayer rope.
What?!?
You mean that if you pray "Lord have mercy" only once the Triune God will not hear your prayer?
You repeat the prayer three times in many places in the Liturgy, and many times over all. And you repeat the sign of the cross prayer several times during the Liturgy. Why not only once?
 
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« Reply #88 on: April 18, 2013, 03:05:36 PM »

By asking him once, we have shown our need for God.

So it's just following procedure?

Not exactly.   "Ask seek knock".   But once the door is opened, don't keep knocking thinking it's going to be better somehow.


No, but when you enter the house, you usually talk with the host, and that is what prayer is all about, communication. By your definition, we could just say the Jesus Prayer once in our life and that would be it.
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« Reply #89 on: April 18, 2013, 03:10:22 PM »

So we should call Jesus name 3x because more than that, is vain repetition? You know you are contradicting yourself by repeating the same thing, vainly, because we wont change our believes just because YOU dont agree with them. The Bible mentions people calling on His name repeteadly until He listened, i think repeating a prayer is a small sacrifice that you do and keeps your flesh from governing yor soul.
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« Reply #90 on: April 18, 2013, 03:10:48 PM »

It's not the Jesus prayer, it's the repeating of it over and over, back to back, thinking it will "do something more" than saying it once.

O, it does a lot more! It's selling "all that you have" (your thoughts) for the one pearl of great price:

Quote from: Matthew 13
The kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; which when a man has found, he hides, and for joy thereof goes and sells all that he has, and buys that field.

Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking fine pearls: when he had found one pearl of great price, he went and sold all that he had, and bought it.
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« Reply #91 on: April 18, 2013, 03:11:33 PM »

By asking him once, we have shown our need for God.

So it's just following procedure?

Not exactly.   "Ask seek knock".   But once the door is opened, don't keep knocking thinking it's going to be better somehow.

What's going to get better?  If I pray for impossible things to become possible, is that a vain and repetitive prayer?  Where does letting go come into the picture?
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« Reply #92 on: April 18, 2013, 03:26:08 PM »

Defining vain does not mean you've shown how repetitious prayer is vain. The premise is that it won't accomplish anything, thus being "empty," but prayer of the heart has definitively, observably, verifiably been shown to accomplish much (what was that about fervent prayer?), both spiritual and physical.

You are on the wrong side of history, scripture, and tradition on this one, Jesusisiam.
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« Reply #93 on: April 18, 2013, 03:29:16 PM »

Actually, I've read somewhere that "vain repetition" was a deliberate subtle mistranslation of the Greek by the (anti-Catholic)Protestant translaters of the KJV.  The real gist of the meaning seems to be more along the lines of "babbling" from what I understand.  Reminds me more of (well-meaning) protestants who like to pray out loud in the presence of others and tend to drag it on and on.
I'll try to find the link.
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« Reply #94 on: April 18, 2013, 03:39:16 PM »

Producing no result; useless: "a vain attempt to sleep".

If the Jesus prayer produced "no result" for me, I should wonder why. Is it the prayer or is it me?

You chose the easy way out of this "dilemma".  Sad  



Yes, indeed.

This also begs the question of what "result" one is expecting.
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« Reply #95 on: April 18, 2013, 03:46:08 PM »

Actually, I've read somewhere that "vain repetition" was a deliberate subtle mistranslation of the Greek by the (anti-Catholic)Protestant translaters of the KJV.  The real gist of the meaning seems to be more along the lines of "babbling" from what I understand.  Reminds me more of (well-meaning) protestants who like to pray out loud in the presence of others and tend to drag it on and on.
I'll try to find the link.

Welcome to the forum, PorphyriosK!

What you say reminds me of what I think I remember the Orthodox priest telling us, that I mentioned above.  Ha!  How's that for vague  Cool?
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« Reply #96 on: April 18, 2013, 03:46:52 PM »

By your definition, we could just say the Jesus Prayer once in our life and that would be it.

*kuch* sinner's prayer *kuch*
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« Reply #97 on: April 18, 2013, 03:48:55 PM »

100x prayer ropes, 3x a day.... no not vain.   Don't skip a knot or bead.

I guess people think God is dumb and doesn't know.  Beats me.

Quote from: St. John of the Ladder
If everything depends on habit, and follows upon it, then still more do the virtues depend on habit, for they have God as their great collaborator.

Practice produces habit, and perseverance grows into a feeling of the heart; and what is done with an ingrained feeling of the heart is not easily eradicated.
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« Reply #98 on: April 18, 2013, 04:16:20 PM »

True prayer is standing before God with our minds in our hearts. The method we use to get there is secondary.
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« Reply #99 on: April 18, 2013, 04:20:27 PM »

By your definition, we could just say the Jesus Prayer once in our life and that would be it.

*kuch* sinner's prayer *kuch*

Yes, I know. Maybe I expressed myself in a bad way. What I meant was that he made it sound as if saying a prayer more than one time is vain
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« Reply #100 on: April 18, 2013, 04:21:34 PM »

Actually, I've read somewhere that "vain repetition" was a deliberate subtle mistranslation of the Greek by the (anti-Catholic)Protestant translaters of the KJV.  The real gist of the meaning seems to be more along the lines of "babbling" from what I understand.  Reminds me more of (well-meaning) protestants who like to pray out loud in the presence of others and tend to drag it on and on.
I'll try to find the link.

The word used, battalogein, was invented by the Evangelist. It wasn't used before that.
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« Reply #101 on: April 18, 2013, 04:43:27 PM »

More from the Ladder of St. John on prayer:

Quote from: Step 28: On holy and blessed prayer, mother of virtues, and on the attitude of mind and body in prayer.
Let your prayer be completely simple. For both the publican and the prodigal son were reconciled to God by a single phrase.

Do not be over-sophisticated in the words you use when praying, because the simple and unadorned lisping of children has often won the heart of their heavenly Father.

Do not attempt to talk much when you pray lest your mind be distracted in searching for words. One word of the publican propitiated God, and one cry of faith saved the thief. Loquacity in prayer often distracts the mind and leads to phantasy, whereas brevity makes for concentration.

A great practiser of high and perfect prayer says: ‘I would rather speak five words with my understanding,’ and so on. But such prayer is foreign to infant souls. Therefore, imperfect as we are, we need not only quality but a considerable time for our prayer, because the latter paves the way for the former. For it is said: ‘Giving pure prayer to him who prays resolutely, even though sordidly and laboriously.’

What is obtained by frequent and prolonged prayer is lasting.

Do not say, after spending a long time at prayer, that nothing has been gained; for you have already gained something. And what higher good is there than to cling to the Lord and persevere in unceasing union with Him?


Ask with tears, seek with obedience, knock with patience. For thus he who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.

Until we have acquired genuine prayer we are like people teaching children to begin to walk.

Try to lift up, or rather, to shut off your thought within the words of your prayer, and if in its infant state it wearies and falls, lift it up again. Instability is natural to the mind, but God is powerful to establish everything. If you persevere indefatigably in this labour, He who sets the bounds to the sea of the mind will visit you too, and during your prayer will say to the waves: Thus far shalt thou come and no further. Spirit cannot be bound; but where the Creator of the spirit is, everything obeys.
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« Reply #102 on: April 18, 2013, 05:07:52 PM »

It's actually "not all over the bible".

There were prayers said "3 times" which represent the trinity.  Including "holy holy holy"...

Quote from: 1 Kings 18:41-45
Elijah went up to the top of Carmel; then he bowed down on the ground, and put his face between his knees, and said to his servant, “Go up now, look toward the sea.” So he went up and looked, and said, “There is nothing.” And seven times he said, “Go again.” Then it came to pass the seventh time, that he said, “There is a cloud, as small as a man’s hand, rising out of the sea!”

Quote from: 2 Kings 5:9-14
Naaman came with his horses and chariots, and halted at the entrance of Elisha’s house. Elisha sent a messenger to him, saying, “Go, wash in the Jordan seven times, and your flesh shall be restored and you shall be clean.” But Naaman became angry and went away, saying, “I thought that for me he would surely come out, and stand and call on the name of the Lord his God, and would wave his hand over the spot, and cure the leprosy! Are not Abana and Pharpar, the rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? Could I not wash in them, and be clean?” He turned and went away in a rage. But his servants approached and said to him, “Father, if the prophet had commanded you to do something difficult, would you not have done it? How much more, when all he said to you was, ‘Wash, and be clean’?” So he went down and immersed himself seven times in the Jordan, according to the word of the man of God; his flesh was restored like the flesh of a young boy, and he was clean.
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« Reply #103 on: April 18, 2013, 05:22:25 PM »

Actually, I've read somewhere that "vain repetition" was a deliberate subtle mistranslation of the Greek by the (anti-Catholic)Protestant translaters of the KJV.  The real gist of the meaning seems to be more along the lines of "babbling" from what I understand.  Reminds me more of (well-meaning) protestants who like to pray out loud in the presence of others and tend to drag it on and on.
I'll try to find the link.

I found "babbling like pagans" in the New International Version. Other phrasings:
heap up empty phrases: ESV and RSV
speak not much: Douay-Rheims
talk on and on: Contemporary English
flood of empty words: Common English Bible

It is clear to me that, in the context of the several translations, "vain repetitions" could refer as much to the uselessness of the content of the prayer as to its repetition. Indeed, The Jesus Prayer, said once or ad infinitum does not fall under this saying of the Lord simply because it is the opposite of "empty words, "babbling" or "empty phrases." Also, one does not "speak" the Jesus Prayer and it is not "talk" as we commonly understand such.
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« Reply #104 on: April 18, 2013, 05:41:57 PM »

Let me tell you a story.

In 2005, I was changing lanes on I-75 when I skidded on a giant mass of water (there were thunderstorms just before that, and much of the road was periodically blocked by flood patches). The car flipped over three times, and I wound up on the other side of the highway.

I woke up to see the myriad cracks in the front windshield and to wonder why all these police officers and firefighters were screaming at me to get out of the car. I started jibbering, "God help me. God help me. Oh, God." I did that many, many times before I gripped hold of myself enough to actually move and open the door.

Do you think God heard me? Do you think those were vain words, because I said the same thing several times?

Also, to put a point on it, any time you use any words, in any language, you are using a pre-established term, that someone somewhere has already used. Any time you say anything, unless you are saying gibberish like "bleeg smarb flonder shpoo," that is a repetition. I could go all Bill Bryson or George Carlin on you, but you can do Google searches yourself. Or head to the library. Lots of books, with repeated words in there.

The dictionary is the same bunch of words, over and over again, every time I read it.

Please, Yesh, learn what adjectives and modifiers and qualifiers are. Learn how to parse a sentence. Or else you are making the Scriptures a liar. And if I have to pick who's lying, I know it's not the Holy Spirit.
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« Reply #105 on: April 18, 2013, 05:46:02 PM »

"βατταλογέω" is an interesting word there, and it's exact meaning is unsure, due to the "βαττος" half of it. Different linguists have different theories, but ultimately they end up functionally meaning the same thing, which is prattling or babbling. Everyone essentially agrees that it refers to words spoken without care, attention or purpose.

I'd think the Fathers would, obviously, agree with this as many of them in their works chide the practice of prayer with heartfelt love and repentance. The "repetition" part, such as in the King James, seems to be more of an implication to the word than a direct meaning. You could probably just as easily translate this "useless speech" as you can "vain repetition."
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« Reply #106 on: April 18, 2013, 05:58:39 PM »

Quote from: Arndt, Danker & Bauer, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature
βατταλογέω (βαττολογέω) 1 aor. subj. βατταλογήσω onomatopoetic word; to speak in a way that images the kind of speech pattern of one who stammers, use the same words again and again, speak without thinking (explained by πολυλογία) Mt 6:7; Lk 11:2. Except for writers dependent on the NT the word has been found only in Vita Aesopi W 109, where Perry notes the v.l. βατολογέω for βαττολογέω (it is missing in the corresponding place ed. Eberhard I c. 26 p. 289, 9. But Vita Aesopi G 50 P. has the noun βαττολογία=foolish talk, but in a different context), and in Simplicius (c. 530 a.d.), Commentarium in Epictetum p. 91, 23 in the spelling βαττολογέω=‘prate’. It is perhaps a hybrid form, rendering Aramaic אמר בטלהא=‘talk idly’.

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