Author Topic: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism  (Read 67019 times)

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Offline dzheremi

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #135 on: January 23, 2012, 06:27:39 PM »
Hmm. Looking at all those words makes me so glad I no longer have to bother. In the Coptic church, the fight against "modernism" in the church means arguing over the pronunciation of a language that no one has spoken natively in about 600 years. ;)

Offline Peter J

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Re: About me (Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism)
« Reply #136 on: March 04, 2012, 09:33:26 PM »
and vaguge-what's a "High Church"?

The adjective “High Church” is not very specific. That's actually one of the reasons I chose it.

My thinking is somewhat Anglo-Catholic, but also somewhat High Church Lutheran, somewhat Anglo-Orthodox, and somewhat Anglo-Papalist, and “High Church” includes all of those. (I also like the fact that it doesn't specify with whom I am in full communion.)

Thanks for asking. :)

Addendum: A few weeks ago I started using the descriptor "High Church" to explain where I am religiously. Not long after that, I began to think that I should perhaps be a little more specific, to avoid misunderstandings.

This line of thought led me, especially, to one particular question: am I still a Catholic, or am I now an Anglican? (I don't want to get into a lengthy explanation of what Anglican means; but for the sake of interpreting the preceding sentence, suffice it to say that for me "Anglican" includes not only the Anglican Communion, but the Continuing Anglicans as well.) I pondered this question for some weeks, and in the end the answer seemed quite clear: I am a Catholic. I do have a great liking for Anglicanism, at least as understood by the Continuing Anglicans, but it isn't who I am.

Having said all that, I want to set the record straight for anyone who may be wondering if I'm SSPX. I'm not. I definitely believe that the SSPX is and has always been Catholic, and I definitely think that studying them has been very helpful to me as a Catholic, but I'm not SSPX myself.

Thanks for reading.  :)
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Offline erimos

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #137 on: March 08, 2013, 07:42:31 PM »
Serious as the Pope on Pascha, I want to know what you're thinking.  I'm not baiting, I am being serious.

When Eastern Catholics do the say that is ok to reject:
1) Purgatory
2) The Immaculate Conception
3) The Ecumenical Councils between the seventh and Vatican II
4) Original Sin
5) Papal Infallibility
6) The Universal Jurisdiction of the Pope
7) The procession of the Holy Spirit from the Father and the Son
etc.
When they reject these and then state that its ok with the Church to do so, they are misrepresenting Catholicism to the world.

From this i read Papist saying that ECatholics are not Orthodox and they should stop pretending to represent the Church in Rome, which they are part of. Is that correct Papist?

Offline Papist

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #138 on: March 08, 2013, 07:46:42 PM »
Serious as the Pope on Pascha, I want to know what you're thinking.  I'm not baiting, I am being serious.

When Eastern Catholics do the say that is ok to reject:
1) Purgatory
2) The Immaculate Conception
3) The Ecumenical Councils between the seventh and Vatican II
4) Original Sin
5) Papal Infallibility
6) The Universal Jurisdiction of the Pope
7) The procession of the Holy Spirit from the Father and the Son
etc.
When they reject these and then state that its ok with the Church to do so, they are misrepresenting Catholicism to the world.

From this i read Papist saying that ECatholics are not Orthodox and they should stop pretending to represent the Church in Rome, which they are part of. Is that correct Papist?
You realize that I wrote this in 2008, right? My views on Eastern Catholics may have changed a bit since then.
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Offline Maria

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #139 on: March 08, 2013, 07:57:11 PM »
Serious as the Pope on Pascha, I want to know what you're thinking.  I'm not baiting, I am being serious.

When Eastern Catholics do the say that is ok to reject:
1) Purgatory
2) The Immaculate Conception
3) The Ecumenical Councils between the seventh and Vatican II
4) Original Sin
5) Papal Infallibility
6) The Universal Jurisdiction of the Pope
7) The procession of the Holy Spirit from the Father and the Son
etc.
When they reject these and then state that its ok with the Church to do so, they are misrepresenting Catholicism to the world.

From this i read Papist saying that ECatholics are not Orthodox and they should stop pretending to represent the Church in Rome, which they are part of. Is that correct Papist?
You realize that I wrote this in 2008, right? My views on Eastern Catholics may have changed a bit since then.

Good to hear from you.

To be fair, I think we all grow and increase in wisdom. If we are not struggling to be good, well, we are in decline, and that would be awful.
Ἅγιος ὁ Θεός
Ἅγιος ἰσχυρός
Ἅγιος ἀθάνατος
ἐλέησον ἡμας

Offline Papist

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #140 on: March 08, 2013, 07:59:39 PM »
Serious as the Pope on Pascha, I want to know what you're thinking.  I'm not baiting, I am being serious.

When Eastern Catholics do the say that is ok to reject:
1) Purgatory
2) The Immaculate Conception
3) The Ecumenical Councils between the seventh and Vatican II
4) Original Sin
5) Papal Infallibility
6) The Universal Jurisdiction of the Pope
7) The procession of the Holy Spirit from the Father and the Son
etc.
When they reject these and then state that its ok with the Church to do so, they are misrepresenting Catholicism to the world.

From this i read Papist saying that ECatholics are not Orthodox and they should stop pretending to represent the Church in Rome, which they are part of. Is that correct Papist?
You realize that I wrote this in 2008, right? My views on Eastern Catholics may have changed a bit since then.

Good to hear from you.

To be fair, I think we all grow and increase in wisdom. If we are not struggling to be good, well, we are in decline, and that would be awful.
Good to hear from you too. :)
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #141 on: March 08, 2013, 08:44:56 PM »
Serious as the Pope on Pascha, I want to know what you're thinking.  I'm not baiting, I am being serious.

When Eastern Catholics do the say that is ok to reject:
1) Purgatory
2) The Immaculate Conception
3) The Ecumenical Councils between the seventh and Vatican II
4) Original Sin
5) Papal Infallibility
6) The Universal Jurisdiction of the Pope
7) The procession of the Holy Spirit from the Father and the Son
etc.
When they reject these and then state that its ok with the Church to do so, they are misrepresenting Catholicism to the world.

From this i read Papist saying that ECatholics are not Orthodox and they should stop pretending to represent the Church in Rome, which they are part of. Is that correct Papist?

I'm not going to try to say what Papist meant almost 5 years ago, but here's a thought that might help: it isn't too easy being Eastern Catholic, because on the one hand we've got Rome saying "You should believe such-and-such", but we also get "You're not a real Eastern Christian unless you agree with such-and-such" from the Orthodox.
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)

Offline erimos

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #142 on: March 08, 2013, 08:49:36 PM »
Serious as the Pope on Pascha, I want to know what you're thinking.  I'm not baiting, I am being serious.

When Eastern Catholics do the say that is ok to reject:
1) Purgatory
2) The Immaculate Conception
3) The Ecumenical Councils between the seventh and Vatican II
4) Original Sin
5) Papal Infallibility
6) The Universal Jurisdiction of the Pope
7) The procession of the Holy Spirit from the Father and the Son
etc.
When they reject these and then state that its ok with the Church to do so, they are misrepresenting Catholicism to the world.

From this i read Papist saying that ECatholics are not Orthodox and they should stop pretending to represent the Church in Rome, which they are part of. Is that correct Papist?
You realize that I wrote this in 2008, right? My views on Eastern Catholics may have changed a bit since then.

That is interesting; the implication is either Papist is becoming Orthodox-like or he is inconsistent with his views.

Offline Papist

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #143 on: March 08, 2013, 09:19:27 PM »
Serious as the Pope on Pascha, I want to know what you're thinking.  I'm not baiting, I am being serious.

When Eastern Catholics do the say that is ok to reject:
1) Purgatory
2) The Immaculate Conception
3) The Ecumenical Councils between the seventh and Vatican II
4) Original Sin
5) Papal Infallibility
6) The Universal Jurisdiction of the Pope
7) The procession of the Holy Spirit from the Father and the Son
etc.
When they reject these and then state that its ok with the Church to do so, they are misrepresenting Catholicism to the world.

From this i read Papist saying that ECatholics are not Orthodox and they should stop pretending to represent the Church in Rome, which they are part of. Is that correct Papist?
You realize that I wrote this in 2008, right? My views on Eastern Catholics may have changed a bit since then.

That is interesting; the implication is either Papist is becoming Orthodox-like or he is inconsistent with his views.
Or maybe I realize that the historical, theological, and ecclesial experience of Eastern Catholics is more complex than some would like to realize. We all have to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, and I am certainly not in any place to judge the faith experience of my Eastern Catholuc brothers and sisters. Do I think every Catholic should profess every Catholic doctrine? Absolutely! But I'm not going to tell many the many Eastern Catholics who are much holier than me how to practice the faith. That is between them, their Bishop, and God.
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Offline Eastern Mind

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #144 on: March 08, 2013, 09:32:35 PM »
Maronites believe in all that. Of course, they have become more Latinized as time has gone on (not saying that's a bad thing, even Maronites admit to that). When I was Catholic I looked into Maronite Catholicism for a bit.

Offline Peter J

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #145 on: March 08, 2013, 09:36:10 PM »
Serious as the Pope on Pascha, I want to know what you're thinking.  I'm not baiting, I am being serious.

When Eastern Catholics do the say that is ok to reject:
1) Purgatory
2) The Immaculate Conception
3) The Ecumenical Councils between the seventh and Vatican II
4) Original Sin
5) Papal Infallibility
6) The Universal Jurisdiction of the Pope
7) The procession of the Holy Spirit from the Father and the Son
etc.
When they reject these and then state that its ok with the Church to do so, they are misrepresenting Catholicism to the world.

From this i read Papist saying that ECatholics are not Orthodox and they should stop pretending to represent the Church in Rome, which they are part of. Is that correct Papist?
You realize that I wrote this in 2008, right? My views on Eastern Catholics may have changed a bit since then.

That is interesting; the implication is either Papist is becoming Orthodox-like or he is inconsistent with his views.
Or maybe I realize that the historical, theological, and ecclesial experience of Eastern Catholics is more complex than some would like to realize. We all have to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, and I am certainly not in any place to judge the faith experience of my Eastern Catholuc brothers and sisters. Do I think every Catholic should profess every Catholic doctrine? Absolutely! But I'm not going to tell many the many Eastern Catholics who are much holier than me how to practice the faith. That is between them, their Bishop, and God.

:thumbsup:

I've commented before that if I were Orthodox, I wouldn't switch to Catholicism. But that doesn't necessarily mean that I'm going to convert to Orthodoxy.
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Offline erimos

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #146 on: March 08, 2013, 11:03:19 PM »
That is interesting; the implication is either Papist is becoming Orthodox-like or he is inconsistent with his views.
[/quote]
Or maybe I realize that the historical, theological, and ecclesial experience of Eastern Catholics is more complex than some would like to realize. We all have to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, and I am certainly not in any place to judge the faith experience of my Eastern Catholuc brothers and sisters. Do I think every Catholic should profess every Catholic doctrine? Absolutely! But I'm not going to tell many the many Eastern Catholics who are much holier than me how to practice the faith. That is between them, their Bishop, and God.
[/quote]

That is benevolent of you. Do you concede the same for Orthodox Christians?
« Last Edit: March 08, 2013, 11:04:17 PM by erimos »

Offline Papist

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #147 on: March 09, 2013, 01:33:27 PM »
That is interesting; the implication is either Papist is becoming Orthodox-like or he is inconsistent with his views.
Or maybe I realize that the historical, theological, and ecclesial experience of Eastern Catholics is more complex than some would like to realize. We all have to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, and I am certainly not in any place to judge the faith experience of my Eastern Catholuc brothers and sisters. Do I think every Catholic should profess every Catholic doctrine? Absolutely! But I'm not going to tell many the many Eastern Catholics who are much holier than me how to practice the faith. That is between them, their Bishop, and God.
[/quote]

That is benevolent of you. Do you concede the same for Orthodox Christians?
[/quote] Do you mean that I believe that all Orthodox Christians should profess what Catholics do, then the answer is also yes. Do mean that understand that the schism is a very complicated matter and I should not judge the spiritual lives of the very many very holy EOs and OOs? Again that is correct. Do I think that there are real differences between Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Christians? Yes! Do I Think that some people exaggerate those differences for the sake of picking fights? Yes to that as well.
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Offline mike

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #148 on: March 24, 2013, 11:17:51 AM »
Discussion between members of different Catholic jurisdictions was split. You can follow it there.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 11:18:25 AM by Michał Kalina »
Hyperdox Herman, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - fb, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - tt

not everything I typed before [insert current date] may reflect my current views on the subject

Offline frjohnmorris

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #149 on: December 17, 2013, 03:41:34 PM »
So, do Western and Eastern Catholics disagree on matters of doctrine?  In my own search for the Church, people have often suggested that I become an Eastern Catholic.  This would be a way for me to have the best of both worlds (the worlds being Catholicism and Orthodoxy).  However, the impression I have been getting is that many Eastern Catholics do not accept doctrines which are required belief in the Catholic Church.  It seems that many Eastern Catholics say to themselves, "We will acknowledge the existence of papal authority, but we will not accept any commands from this authority that are not in accord with our own Eastern tradition."  Others seem to simply pretend that these theological differences do not exist.
The problem is very complicated. If you ask people like Todd, they will outright deny essential Catholic dogmas what that are de fide statements. For example: Papal infallibility, Universial Jurisidiction, the Councils after number seven, etc. Others will accept the entirety of the Catholic faith but simply look at it from an Eastern perspective. Melikites tend to be for the former type. Most Ruthenians that I have met in person tend to be of the latter.
I have absolutely no problem with Eastern Catholics having different practices about clerical celibacy, offering the Eucharist to infants, using leavened bread, using a different liturgy, following different fasting guidelines, or having various other different disciplinary practices.  What troubles me is that there are teachings which are binding upon Catholics that many Eastern Catholics seem to either ignore or oppose.
Which is exactly the problem that I have with the current state of Eastern Catholicism. While there are many good, faithful, and saintly Eastern Catholics, there are those who took the Church's call to de-latinize as permission to abandon the Catholic faith while maintaining the name "Catholic".
Eastern Catholics should be able to be both Catholic and Eastern.  However, when an apparent conflict occurs, which is more important, to be Catholic or to be Eastern?  St. Alexis chose Eastern.  The various Eastern Catholic posters who come here and complain to the Orthodox that the Western Catholics do not appreciate or understand them seem very close to making the same choice.
This seems to echo my thoughts exactly. I cannot even begin to sympathize with a person who claims to be Catholic yet rejects the Catholic faith simply in order to be "Eastern". I don't think being an Eastern Catholic requires that one reject the faith of the Church. But some do.
I am trying to be very diplomatic and courteous about it, but perhaps I see some of the same difficulties with Eastern Catholicism that Papist does.
I probably come off as very harsh because of my zeal for the truth of the Catholic faith, but I just believe it to be gravely immoral to call oneself Catholic and then reject the truths of the Church. In this day of reletivism the Church must speak with one voice, the voice she has always spoken with. Eastern Catholics need to remember the words of St. Iraneaus who says, "With this Church [Rome] all churches must agree...becuase her superior origin."

If the Eastern Catholics are absolutely correct in every doctrine and teaching, including those which are in opposition to that taught by Rome, why not just be Orthodox?  Would it not be better to be in communion with those also holding to the true faith, rather than be in communion with those holding to western heresies?  If one can hold to the Orthodox faith and be in communion with Rome, what is everyone arguing about, and why has reunion not already occured?
Both excellent question that I have been asking for the last few years. To the first one, I have never been given a sufficient answer. To the second, the EOs believe that Catholics are heretics and schismatics. Which, of course, is what traditional Latin Catholics like myself believe about the EOs (which I do not mean as an insult. I am just illustrating what the traditional Latin Catholic view is).
I'm not making a judgment in this post about whether or not the Orthodox Church or the Catholic Church is the true Church.  I haven't made up my mind about that yet.  I am simply remarking that I observe a contradiction between the beliefs of Eastern and Western Catholics, and I am wondering how this can be.
Many of us wonder about the same thing. Apostolic Christianity is simply a mess right now.

As an Eastern Orthodox Priest, I object when Eastern Catholics call themselves "Orthodox in Communion with Rome." To Eastern Orthodox if you are in Communion with a Bishop, you share a common doctrine with that Bishop. Since there are important doctrinal differences between Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism, from an Eastern Orthodox point of view a Bishop in Communion  with Rome believes the same doctrine that Rome teaches, not what Eastern Orthodox believe. Therefore you cannot be Orthodox in Communion with Rome. If you are Orthodox, you must be in Communion with the Orthodox Church.

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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #150 on: December 17, 2013, 04:02:12 PM »
So, do Western and Eastern Catholics disagree on matters of doctrine?  In my own search for the Church, people have often suggested that I become an Eastern Catholic.  This would be a way for me to have the best of both worlds (the worlds being Catholicism and Orthodoxy).  However, the impression I have been getting is that many Eastern Catholics do not accept doctrines which are required belief in the Catholic Church.  It seems that many Eastern Catholics say to themselves, "We will acknowledge the existence of papal authority, but we will not accept any commands from this authority that are not in accord with our own Eastern tradition."  Others seem to simply pretend that these theological differences do not exist.
The problem is very complicated. If you ask people like Todd, they will outright deny essential Catholic dogmas what that are de fide statements. For example: Papal infallibility, Universial Jurisidiction, the Councils after number seven, etc. Others will accept the entirety of the Catholic faith but simply look at it from an Eastern perspective. Melikites tend to be for the former type. Most Ruthenians that I have met in person tend to be of the latter.
I have absolutely no problem with Eastern Catholics having different practices about clerical celibacy, offering the Eucharist to infants, using leavened bread, using a different liturgy, following different fasting guidelines, or having various other different disciplinary practices.  What troubles me is that there are teachings which are binding upon Catholics that many Eastern Catholics seem to either ignore or oppose.
Which is exactly the problem that I have with the current state of Eastern Catholicism. While there are many good, faithful, and saintly Eastern Catholics, there are those who took the Church's call to de-latinize as permission to abandon the Catholic faith while maintaining the name "Catholic".
Eastern Catholics should be able to be both Catholic and Eastern.  However, when an apparent conflict occurs, which is more important, to be Catholic or to be Eastern?  St. Alexis chose Eastern.  The various Eastern Catholic posters who come here and complain to the Orthodox that the Western Catholics do not appreciate or understand them seem very close to making the same choice.
This seems to echo my thoughts exactly. I cannot even begin to sympathize with a person who claims to be Catholic yet rejects the Catholic faith simply in order to be "Eastern". I don't think being an Eastern Catholic requires that one reject the faith of the Church. But some do.
I am trying to be very diplomatic and courteous about it, but perhaps I see some of the same difficulties with Eastern Catholicism that Papist does.
I probably come off as very harsh because of my zeal for the truth of the Catholic faith, but I just believe it to be gravely immoral to call oneself Catholic and then reject the truths of the Church. In this day of reletivism the Church must speak with one voice, the voice she has always spoken with. Eastern Catholics need to remember the words of St. Iraneaus who says, "With this Church [Rome] all churches must agree...becuase her superior origin."

If the Eastern Catholics are absolutely correct in every doctrine and teaching, including those which are in opposition to that taught by Rome, why not just be Orthodox?  Would it not be better to be in communion with those also holding to the true faith, rather than be in communion with those holding to western heresies?  If one can hold to the Orthodox faith and be in communion with Rome, what is everyone arguing about, and why has reunion not already occured?
Both excellent question that I have been asking for the last few years. To the first one, I have never been given a sufficient answer. To the second, the EOs believe that Catholics are heretics and schismatics. Which, of course, is what traditional Latin Catholics like myself believe about the EOs (which I do not mean as an insult. I am just illustrating what the traditional Latin Catholic view is).
I'm not making a judgment in this post about whether or not the Orthodox Church or the Catholic Church is the true Church.  I haven't made up my mind about that yet.  I am simply remarking that I observe a contradiction between the beliefs of Eastern and Western Catholics, and I am wondering how this can be.
Many of us wonder about the same thing. Apostolic Christianity is simply a mess right now.

As an Eastern Orthodox Priest, I object when Eastern Catholics call themselves "Orthodox in Communion with Rome." To Eastern Orthodox if you are in Communion with a Bishop, you share a common doctrine with that Bishop. Since there are important doctrinal differences between Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism, from an Eastern Orthodox point of view a Bishop in Communion  with Rome believes the same doctrine that Rome teaches, not what Eastern Orthodox believe. Therefore you cannot be Orthodox in Communion with Rome. If you are Orthodox, you must be in Communion with the Orthodox Church.

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Offline Alpo

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #151 on: December 17, 2013, 04:41:16 PM »
This topic is awesome now that Papist has gone Greek.
The user should probably be sleeping by now.

Offline Papist

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #152 on: December 17, 2013, 07:29:37 PM »
Ha! I was gonna say this topic is hilrious.  :D
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #153 on: December 17, 2013, 09:40:35 PM »
As an Eastern Orthodox Priest, I object when Eastern Catholics call themselves "Orthodox in Communion with Rome." To Eastern Orthodox if you are in Communion with a Bishop, you share a common doctrine with that Bishop. Since there are important doctrinal differences between Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism, from an Eastern Orthodox point of view a Bishop in Communion  with Rome believes the same doctrine that Rome teaches, not what Eastern Orthodox believe. Therefore you cannot be Orthodox in Communion with Rome. If you are Orthodox, you must be in Communion with the Orthodox Church.

Fr. John W. Morris

Quite frankly, I would have stopped using the phrase "Orthodox in communion with Rome" a long time ago, if it weren't for the fact that the Melkite patriarch uses it.

P.S. To the old, old question you quoted from Iambic Pen,

"If the Eastern Catholics are absolutely correct in every doctrine and teaching, including those which are in opposition to that taught by Rome, why not just be Orthodox?  Would it not be better to be in communion with those also holding to the true faith, rather than be in communion with those holding to western heresies?"

I would answer that I don't believe Rome to be in heresy.
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Offline Papist

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #154 on: December 17, 2013, 10:35:22 PM »
As an Eastern Orthodox Priest, I object when Eastern Catholics call themselves "Orthodox in Communion with Rome." To Eastern Orthodox if you are in Communion with a Bishop, you share a common doctrine with that Bishop. Since there are important doctrinal differences between Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism, from an Eastern Orthodox point of view a Bishop in Communion  with Rome believes the same doctrine that Rome teaches, not what Eastern Orthodox believe. Therefore you cannot be Orthodox in Communion with Rome. If you are Orthodox, you must be in Communion with the Orthodox Church.

Fr. John W. Morris

Quite frankly, I would have stopped using the phrase "Orthodox in communion with Rome" a long time ago, if it weren't for the fact that the Melkite patriarch uses it.

P.S. To the old, old question you quoted from Iambic Pen,

"If the Eastern Catholics are absolutely correct in every doctrine and teaching, including those which are in opposition to that taught by Rome, why not just be Orthodox?  Would it not be better to be in communion with those also holding to the true faith, rather than be in communion with those holding to western heresies?"

I would answer that I don't believe Rome to be in heresy.
If we believed Rome to be heretical, we would most certainly not be in communion with her.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 10:35:51 PM by Papist »
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Offline frjohnmorris

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #155 on: December 17, 2013, 11:23:40 PM »
As an Eastern Orthodox Priest, I object when Eastern Catholics call themselves "Orthodox in Communion with Rome." To Eastern Orthodox if you are in Communion with a Bishop, you share a common doctrine with that Bishop. Since there are important doctrinal differences between Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism, from an Eastern Orthodox point of view a Bishop in Communion  with Rome believes the same doctrine that Rome teaches, not what Eastern Orthodox believe. Therefore you cannot be Orthodox in Communion with Rome. If you are Orthodox, you must be in Communion with the Orthodox Church.

Fr. John W. Morris

Quite frankly, I would have stopped using the phrase "Orthodox in communion with Rome" a long time ago, if it weren't for the fact that the Melkite patriarch uses it.

P.S. To the old, old question you quoted from Iambic Pen,

"If the Eastern Catholics are absolutely correct in every doctrine and teaching, including those which are in opposition to that taught by Rome, why not just be Orthodox?  Would it not be better to be in communion with those also holding to the true faith, rather than be in communion with those holding to western heresies?"

I would answer that I don't believe Rome to be in heresy.
If we believed Rome to be heretical, we would most certainly not be in communion with her.

Then why do some Eastern Catholics keep up the charade of being Orthodox in Communion with Rome? There are real doctrinal differences between Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism. If your doctrine is Roman Catholic, you are not Orthodox. I am not writing this to be hostile. I am writing this in the name of intellectual honesty. If you accept the papal claims you are not Orthodox. If you reject the papal claims and believe as we do, you belong in the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Fr. John W. Morris
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 11:25:11 PM by frjohnmorris »

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #156 on: December 18, 2013, 12:14:17 AM »
So, do Western and Eastern Catholics disagree on matters of doctrine?  In my own search for the Church, people have often suggested that I become an Eastern Catholic.  This would be a way for me to have the best of both worlds (the worlds being Catholicism and Orthodoxy).  However, the impression I have been getting is that many Eastern Catholics do not accept doctrines which are required belief in the Catholic Church.  It seems that many Eastern Catholics say to themselves, "We will acknowledge the existence of papal authority, but we will not accept any commands from this authority that are not in accord with our own Eastern tradition."  Others seem to simply pretend that these theological differences do not exist.
The problem is very complicated. If you ask people like Todd, they will outright deny essential Catholic dogmas what that are de fide statements. For example: Papal infallibility, Universial Jurisidiction, the Councils after number seven, etc. Others will accept the entirety of the Catholic faith but simply look at it from an Eastern perspective. Melikites tend to be for the former type. Most Ruthenians that I have met in person tend to be of the latter.
I have absolutely no problem with Eastern Catholics having different practices about clerical celibacy, offering the Eucharist to infants, using leavened bread, using a different liturgy, following different fasting guidelines, or having various other different disciplinary practices.  What troubles me is that there are teachings which are binding upon Catholics that many Eastern Catholics seem to either ignore or oppose.
Which is exactly the problem that I have with the current state of Eastern Catholicism. While there are many good, faithful, and saintly Eastern Catholics, there are those who took the Church's call to de-latinize as permission to abandon the Catholic faith while maintaining the name "Catholic".
Eastern Catholics should be able to be both Catholic and Eastern.  However, when an apparent conflict occurs, which is more important, to be Catholic or to be Eastern?  St. Alexis chose Eastern.  The various Eastern Catholic posters who come here and complain to the Orthodox that the Western Catholics do not appreciate or understand them seem very close to making the same choice.
This seems to echo my thoughts exactly. I cannot even begin to sympathize with a person who claims to be Catholic yet rejects the Catholic faith simply in order to be "Eastern". I don't think being an Eastern Catholic requires that one reject the faith of the Church. But some do.
I am trying to be very diplomatic and courteous about it, but perhaps I see some of the same difficulties with Eastern Catholicism that Papist does.
I probably come off as very harsh because of my zeal for the truth of the Catholic faith, but I just believe it to be gravely immoral to call oneself Catholic and then reject the truths of the Church. In this day of reletivism the Church must speak with one voice, the voice she has always spoken with. Eastern Catholics need to remember the words of St. Iraneaus who says, "With this Church [Rome] all churches must agree...becuase her superior origin."

If the Eastern Catholics are absolutely correct in every doctrine and teaching, including those which are in opposition to that taught by Rome, why not just be Orthodox?  Would it not be better to be in communion with those also holding to the true faith, rather than be in communion with those holding to western heresies?  If one can hold to the Orthodox faith and be in communion with Rome, what is everyone arguing about, and why has reunion not already occured?
Both excellent question that I have been asking for the last few years. To the first one, I have never been given a sufficient answer. To the second, the EOs believe that Catholics are heretics and schismatics. Which, of course, is what traditional Latin Catholics like myself believe about the EOs (which I do not mean as an insult. I am just illustrating what the traditional Latin Catholic view is).
I'm not making a judgment in this post about whether or not the Orthodox Church or the Catholic Church is the true Church.  I haven't made up my mind about that yet.  I am simply remarking that I observe a contradiction between the beliefs of Eastern and Western Catholics, and I am wondering how this can be.
Many of us wonder about the same thing. Apostolic Christianity is simply a mess right now.

As an Eastern Orthodox Priest, I object when Eastern Catholics call themselves "Orthodox in Communion with Rome." To Eastern Orthodox if you are in Communion with a Bishop, you share a common doctrine with that Bishop. Since there are important doctrinal differences between Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism, from an Eastern Orthodox point of view a Bishop in Communion  with Rome believes the same doctrine that Rome teaches, not what Eastern Orthodox believe. Therefore you cannot be Orthodox in Communion with Rome. If you are Orthodox, you must be in Communion with the Orthodox Church.

Fr. John W. Morris
Father I'll make you a deal.  If you don't object to us using Orthodox, I won't object to you guys using Catholic.  Your argument goes both ways.
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Offline frjohnmorris

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #157 on: December 18, 2013, 01:40:38 AM »
So, do Western and Eastern Catholics disagree on matters of doctrine?  In my own search for the Church, people have often suggested that I become an Eastern Catholic.  This would be a way for me to have the best of both worlds (the worlds being Catholicism and Orthodoxy).  However, the impression I have been getting is that many Eastern Catholics do not accept doctrines which are required belief in the Catholic Church.  It seems that many Eastern Catholics say to themselves, "We will acknowledge the existence of papal authority, but we will not accept any commands from this authority that are not in accord with our own Eastern tradition."  Others seem to simply pretend that these theological differences do not exist.
The problem is very complicated. If you ask people like Todd, they will outright deny essential Catholic dogmas what that are de fide statements. For example: Papal infallibility, Universial Jurisidiction, the Councils after number seven, etc. Others will accept the entirety of the Catholic faith but simply look at it from an Eastern perspective. Melikites tend to be for the former type. Most Ruthenians that I have met in person tend to be of the latter.
I have absolutely no problem with Eastern Catholics having different practices about clerical celibacy, offering the Eucharist to infants, using leavened bread, using a different liturgy, following different fasting guidelines, or having various other different disciplinary practices.  What troubles me is that there are teachings which are binding upon Catholics that many Eastern Catholics seem to either ignore or oppose.
Which is exactly the problem that I have with the current state of Eastern Catholicism. While there are many good, faithful, and saintly Eastern Catholics, there are those who took the Church's call to de-latinize as permission to abandon the Catholic faith while maintaining the name "Catholic".
Eastern Catholics should be able to be both Catholic and Eastern.  However, when an apparent conflict occurs, which is more important, to be Catholic or to be Eastern?  St. Alexis chose Eastern.  The various Eastern Catholic posters who come here and complain to the Orthodox that the Western Catholics do not appreciate or understand them seem very close to making the same choice.
This seems to echo my thoughts exactly. I cannot even begin to sympathize with a person who claims to be Catholic yet rejects the Catholic faith simply in order to be "Eastern". I don't think being an Eastern Catholic requires that one reject the faith of the Church. But some do.
I am trying to be very diplomatic and courteous about it, but perhaps I see some of the same difficulties with Eastern Catholicism that Papist does.
I probably come off as very harsh because of my zeal for the truth of the Catholic faith, but I just believe it to be gravely immoral to call oneself Catholic and then reject the truths of the Church. In this day of reletivism the Church must speak with one voice, the voice she has always spoken with. Eastern Catholics need to remember the words of St. Iraneaus who says, "With this Church [Rome] all churches must agree...becuase her superior origin."

If the Eastern Catholics are absolutely correct in every doctrine and teaching, including those which are in opposition to that taught by Rome, why not just be Orthodox?  Would it not be better to be in communion with those also holding to the true faith, rather than be in communion with those holding to western heresies?  If one can hold to the Orthodox faith and be in communion with Rome, what is everyone arguing about, and why has reunion not already occured?
Both excellent question that I have been asking for the last few years. To the first one, I have never been given a sufficient answer. To the second, the EOs believe that Catholics are heretics and schismatics. Which, of course, is what traditional Latin Catholics like myself believe about the EOs (which I do not mean as an insult. I am just illustrating what the traditional Latin Catholic view is).
I'm not making a judgment in this post about whether or not the Orthodox Church or the Catholic Church is the true Church.  I haven't made up my mind about that yet.  I am simply remarking that I observe a contradiction between the beliefs of Eastern and Western Catholics, and I am wondering how this can be.
Many of us wonder about the same thing. Apostolic Christianity is simply a mess right now.

As an Eastern Orthodox Priest, I object when Eastern Catholics call themselves "Orthodox in Communion with Rome." To Eastern Orthodox if you are in Communion with a Bishop, you share a common doctrine with that Bishop. Since there are important doctrinal differences between Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism, from an Eastern Orthodox point of view a Bishop in Communion  with Rome believes the same doctrine that Rome teaches, not what Eastern Orthodox believe. Therefore you cannot be Orthodox in Communion with Rome. If you are Orthodox, you must be in Communion with the Orthodox Church.

Fr. John W. Morris
Father I'll make you a deal.  If you don't object to us using Orthodox, I won't object to you guys using Catholic.  Your argument goes both ways.

The difference is that we are Orthodox Catholics. The word "Catholic" was first used in the East by St. Ignatius of Antioch. If you are under Rome, you are not Orthodox. This issue is one of the greatest sources of tension between Eastern Orthodox and the Catholic Church. It is dishonest for a group under Rome to call themselves "Orthodox in Communion with Rome," because you cannot be Orthodox and be in Communion with Rome until Rome abandons all teachings like Purgatory, the Augustinian conception of original sin, and most of all papal supremacy, claims to universal jurisdiction and infallibility. Even if you use the Byzantine Liturgy if your Bishop in in Communion with Rome according to Orthodox theology that means that you share a Common Faith with Rome including the Roman teachings that contradict the teaching of the ancient undivided Church.
How about this, you let the Orthodox Church decide who is really Orthodox?
Fr. John W. Morris
« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 01:41:46 AM by frjohnmorris »

Offline Peter J

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #158 on: December 18, 2013, 08:01:44 AM »
As an Eastern Orthodox Priest, I object when Eastern Catholics call themselves "Orthodox in Communion with Rome." To Eastern Orthodox if you are in Communion with a Bishop, you share a common doctrine with that Bishop. Since there are important doctrinal differences between Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism, from an Eastern Orthodox point of view a Bishop in Communion  with Rome believes the same doctrine that Rome teaches, not what Eastern Orthodox believe. Therefore you cannot be Orthodox in Communion with Rome. If you are Orthodox, you must be in Communion with the Orthodox Church.

Fr. John W. Morris

Quite frankly, I would have stopped using the phrase "Orthodox in communion with Rome" a long time ago, if it weren't for the fact that the Melkite patriarch uses it.

P.S. To the old, old question you quoted from Iambic Pen,

"If the Eastern Catholics are absolutely correct in every doctrine and teaching, including those which are in opposition to that taught by Rome, why not just be Orthodox?  Would it not be better to be in communion with those also holding to the true faith, rather than be in communion with those holding to western heresies?"

I would answer that I don't believe Rome to be in heresy.
If we believed Rome to be heretical, we would most certainly not be in communion with her.

Then why do some Eastern Catholics keep up the charade of being Orthodox in Communion with Rome?

I guess it's partially emotional. In the same way, if I were taking a survey with a question "Do you embrace a Low Petrine view, a High Petrine view, or an Absolutist Petrine view?" might be inclined to answer "a High Petrine view", even if I know that the phrase "Low Petrine" is intended to encompass my view.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 08:03:06 AM by Peter J »
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Offline frjohnmorris

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #159 on: December 18, 2013, 10:34:51 AM »
As an Eastern Orthodox Priest, I object when Eastern Catholics call themselves "Orthodox in Communion with Rome." To Eastern Orthodox if you are in Communion with a Bishop, you share a common doctrine with that Bishop. Since there are important doctrinal differences between Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism, from an Eastern Orthodox point of view a Bishop in Communion  with Rome believes the same doctrine that Rome teaches, not what Eastern Orthodox believe. Therefore you cannot be Orthodox in Communion with Rome. If you are Orthodox, you must be in Communion with the Orthodox Church.

Fr. John W. Morris

Quite frankly, I would have stopped using the phrase "Orthodox in communion with Rome" a long time ago, if it weren't for the fact that the Melkite patriarch uses it.

P.S. To the old, old question you quoted from Iambic Pen,

"If the Eastern Catholics are absolutely correct in every doctrine and teaching, including those which are in opposition to that taught by Rome, why not just be Orthodox?  Would it not be better to be in communion with those also holding to the true faith, rather than be in communion with those holding to western heresies?"

I would answer that I don't believe Rome to be in heresy.
If we believed Rome to be heretical, we would most certainly not be in communion with her.

Then why do some Eastern Catholics keep up the charade of being Orthodox in Communion with Rome?

I guess it's partially emotional. In the same way, if I were taking a survey with a question "Do you embrace a Low Petrine view, a High Petrine view, or an Absolutist Petrine view?" might be inclined to answer "a High Petrine view", even if I know that the phrase "Low Petrine" is intended to encompass my view.

No it is a matter of truth in advertising. If you belong to a group that left the Orthodox Church to unite with Rome, you are no longer Orthodox. It is a kind of deception for those who have left our Church to and submitted to the papacy to claim to be Orthodox. That is one reason why the Eastern Orthodox are so upset about the Byzantine Rite Catholics.  They look Eastern Orthodox, worship like we do, but are not Eastern Orthodox.

Fr. John W. Morris

Offline hecma925

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #160 on: December 18, 2013, 10:39:29 AM »

ialmisry, you seem to have that picture of Bishop Siluan in your copy/paste clipboard, permanently. :D
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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #161 on: December 18, 2013, 11:07:23 AM »

ialmisry, you seem to have that picture of Bishop Siluan in your copy/paste clipboard, permanently. :D

I think that this is the first time I've seen this particular picture of +Siluan....but he does always seem to have one handy  :P
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #162 on: December 18, 2013, 01:12:22 PM »
No it is a matter of truth in advertising. If you belong to a group that left the Orthodox Church to unite with Rome, you are no longer Orthodox. It is a kind of deception for those who have left our Church to and submitted to the papacy to claim to be Orthodox. That is one reason why the Eastern Orthodox are so upset about the Byzantine Rite Catholics.  They look Eastern Orthodox, worship like we do, but are not Eastern Orthodox.

Fr. John W. Morris

Not that I want to white-wash, but it needs to be pointed out that Catholic-Orthodox relations are, in fact, making significant progress ...

"Pastoral activity in the Catholic Church, Latin as well as Eastern, no longer aims at having the faithful of one Church pass over to the other"
- the Balamand Statement

(As you've probably heard me say before: if I were Orthodox I wouldn't switch to Catholicism, but likewise I'm not going to switch from Catholicism to Orthodoxy.)
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Offline frjohnmorris

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #163 on: December 18, 2013, 01:25:16 PM »
No it is a matter of truth in advertising. If you belong to a group that left the Orthodox Church to unite with Rome, you are no longer Orthodox. It is a kind of deception for those who have left our Church to and submitted to the papacy to claim to be Orthodox. That is one reason why the Eastern Orthodox are so upset about the Byzantine Rite Catholics.  They look Eastern Orthodox, worship like we do, but are not Eastern Orthodox.

Fr. John W. Morris

Not that I want to white-wash, but it needs to be pointed out that Catholic-Orthodox relations are, in fact, making significant progress ...

"Pastoral activity in the Catholic Church, Latin as well as Eastern, no longer aims at having the faithful of one Church pass over to the other"
- the Balamand Statement

(As you've probably heard me say before: if I were Orthodox I wouldn't switch to Catholicism, but likewise I'm not going to switch from Catholicism to Orthodoxy.)

To use an analogy if a couple has divorced and wants to get back together, it will not work, until they resolve the issues that led to the divorce. Orthodoxy and Catholicism are the same, Unity for the sake of unity will not work unless we resolve the problems that led to the division and which have prevented the healing of the division. That requires honesty even if it offends the other party.

Fr. John W. Morris

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #164 on: December 18, 2013, 02:33:52 PM »
No it is a matter of truth in advertising. If you belong to a group that left the Orthodox Church to unite with Rome, you are no longer Orthodox. It is a kind of deception for those who have left our Church to and submitted to the papacy to claim to be Orthodox. That is one reason why the Eastern Orthodox are so upset about the Byzantine Rite Catholics.  They look Eastern Orthodox, worship like we do, but are not Eastern Orthodox.

Fr. John W. Morris

Not that I want to white-wash, but it needs to be pointed out that Catholic-Orthodox relations are, in fact, making significant progress ...

"Pastoral activity in the Catholic Church, Latin as well as Eastern, no longer aims at having the faithful of one Church pass over to the other"
- the Balamand Statement

(As you've probably heard me say before: if I were Orthodox I wouldn't switch to Catholicism, but likewise I'm not going to switch from Catholicism to Orthodoxy.)

Not that anyone accepted Balamand.
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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #165 on: December 18, 2013, 03:03:49 PM »
^I think, from my friends both in Europe (Slovakia and some parts of Ukraine)  and the United States, that post Balamand, things began to settle down regarding disputes between the Green Catholics and the Orthodox. (I'm ONLY speaking of the portions of the communique dealing with the status of the Greek Catholics in the aftermath of the collapse of the Soviet Union and the advent of reasonably free election in Eastern Europe in the early 1990's. I realize that tension did not disappear but rather an uneasy acceptance of the status quo took hold. ) 

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #166 on: December 18, 2013, 03:05:49 PM »
My impression is that after Balamand things began to slow that so much they slightly reverse now. Not that I think it's bad.
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #167 on: December 18, 2013, 03:51:50 PM »
Ha! I was gonna say this topic is hilrious.  :D

Anyway, what made you change your mind about Eastern Catholicism?
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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #168 on: December 18, 2013, 04:32:01 PM »
So, do Western and Eastern Catholics disagree on matters of doctrine?  In my own search for the Church, people have often suggested that I become an Eastern Catholic.  This would be a way for me to have the best of both worlds (the worlds being Catholicism and Orthodoxy).  However, the impression I have been getting is that many Eastern Catholics do not accept doctrines which are required belief in the Catholic Church.  It seems that many Eastern Catholics say to themselves, "We will acknowledge the existence of papal authority, but we will not accept any commands from this authority that are not in accord with our own Eastern tradition."  Others seem to simply pretend that these theological differences do not exist.
The problem is very complicated. If you ask people like Todd, they will outright deny essential Catholic dogmas what that are de fide statements. For example: Papal infallibility, Universial Jurisidiction, the Councils after number seven, etc. Others will accept the entirety of the Catholic faith but simply look at it from an Eastern perspective. Melikites tend to be for the former type. Most Ruthenians that I have met in person tend to be of the latter.
I have absolutely no problem with Eastern Catholics having different practices about clerical celibacy, offering the Eucharist to infants, using leavened bread, using a different liturgy, following different fasting guidelines, or having various other different disciplinary practices.  What troubles me is that there are teachings which are binding upon Catholics that many Eastern Catholics seem to either ignore or oppose.
Which is exactly the problem that I have with the current state of Eastern Catholicism. While there are many good, faithful, and saintly Eastern Catholics, there are those who took the Church's call to de-latinize as permission to abandon the Catholic faith while maintaining the name "Catholic".
Eastern Catholics should be able to be both Catholic and Eastern.  However, when an apparent conflict occurs, which is more important, to be Catholic or to be Eastern?  St. Alexis chose Eastern.  The various Eastern Catholic posters who come here and complain to the Orthodox that the Western Catholics do not appreciate or understand them seem very close to making the same choice.
This seems to echo my thoughts exactly. I cannot even begin to sympathize with a person who claims to be Catholic yet rejects the Catholic faith simply in order to be "Eastern". I don't think being an Eastern Catholic requires that one reject the faith of the Church. But some do.
I am trying to be very diplomatic and courteous about it, but perhaps I see some of the same difficulties with Eastern Catholicism that Papist does.
I probably come off as very harsh because of my zeal for the truth of the Catholic faith, but I just believe it to be gravely immoral to call oneself Catholic and then reject the truths of the Church. In this day of reletivism the Church must speak with one voice, the voice she has always spoken with. Eastern Catholics need to remember the words of St. Iraneaus who says, "With this Church [Rome] all churches must agree...becuase her superior origin."

If the Eastern Catholics are absolutely correct in every doctrine and teaching, including those which are in opposition to that taught by Rome, why not just be Orthodox?  Would it not be better to be in communion with those also holding to the true faith, rather than be in communion with those holding to western heresies?  If one can hold to the Orthodox faith and be in communion with Rome, what is everyone arguing about, and why has reunion not already occured?
Both excellent question that I have been asking for the last few years. To the first one, I have never been given a sufficient answer. To the second, the EOs believe that Catholics are heretics and schismatics. Which, of course, is what traditional Latin Catholics like myself believe about the EOs (which I do not mean as an insult. I am just illustrating what the traditional Latin Catholic view is).
I'm not making a judgment in this post about whether or not the Orthodox Church or the Catholic Church is the true Church.  I haven't made up my mind about that yet.  I am simply remarking that I observe a contradiction between the beliefs of Eastern and Western Catholics, and I am wondering how this can be.
Many of us wonder about the same thing. Apostolic Christianity is simply a mess right now.

As an Eastern Orthodox Priest, I object when Eastern Catholics call themselves "Orthodox in Communion with Rome." To Eastern Orthodox if you are in Communion with a Bishop, you share a common doctrine with that Bishop. Since there are important doctrinal differences between Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism, from an Eastern Orthodox point of view a Bishop in Communion  with Rome believes the same doctrine that Rome teaches, not what Eastern Orthodox believe. Therefore you cannot be Orthodox in Communion with Rome. If you are Orthodox, you must be in Communion with the Orthodox Church.

Fr. John W. Morris
Father I'll make you a deal.  If you don't object to us using Orthodox, I won't object to you guys using Catholic.  Your argument goes both ways.

The difference is that we are Orthodox Catholics. The word "Catholic" was first used in the East by St. Ignatius of Antioch. If you are under Rome, you are not Orthodox.
The difference is that we are Orthodox Catholics. The word "Catholic" was first used in the East by St. Ignatius of Antioch. If you are not in commounion with Rome, you are not orthodox. See what I did there? Honestly, I think these areguments are pointless. They go round and round and never accomplish anything.
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #169 on: December 18, 2013, 04:48:49 PM »
But, to be fair, the Orthodox don't claim the name "Roman" or "Rome".

Oh wait ...

 ;)
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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #170 on: December 18, 2013, 04:57:48 PM »
So, do Western and Eastern Catholics disagree on matters of doctrine?  In my own search for the Church, people have often suggested that I become an Eastern Catholic.  This would be a way for me to have the best of both worlds (the worlds being Catholicism and Orthodoxy).  However, the impression I have been getting is that many Eastern Catholics do not accept doctrines which are required belief in the Catholic Church.  It seems that many Eastern Catholics say to themselves, "We will acknowledge the existence of papal authority, but we will not accept any commands from this authority that are not in accord with our own Eastern tradition."  Others seem to simply pretend that these theological differences do not exist.
The problem is very complicated. If you ask people like Todd, they will outright deny essential Catholic dogmas what that are de fide statements. For example: Papal infallibility, Universial Jurisidiction, the Councils after number seven, etc. Others will accept the entirety of the Catholic faith but simply look at it from an Eastern perspective. Melikites tend to be for the former type. Most Ruthenians that I have met in person tend to be of the latter.
I have absolutely no problem with Eastern Catholics having different practices about clerical celibacy, offering the Eucharist to infants, using leavened bread, using a different liturgy, following different fasting guidelines, or having various other different disciplinary practices.  What troubles me is that there are teachings which are binding upon Catholics that many Eastern Catholics seem to either ignore or oppose.
Which is exactly the problem that I have with the current state of Eastern Catholicism. While there are many good, faithful, and saintly Eastern Catholics, there are those who took the Church's call to de-latinize as permission to abandon the Catholic faith while maintaining the name "Catholic".
Eastern Catholics should be able to be both Catholic and Eastern.  However, when an apparent conflict occurs, which is more important, to be Catholic or to be Eastern?  St. Alexis chose Eastern.  The various Eastern Catholic posters who come here and complain to the Orthodox that the Western Catholics do not appreciate or understand them seem very close to making the same choice.
This seems to echo my thoughts exactly. I cannot even begin to sympathize with a person who claims to be Catholic yet rejects the Catholic faith simply in order to be "Eastern". I don't think being an Eastern Catholic requires that one reject the faith of the Church. But some do.
I am trying to be very diplomatic and courteous about it, but perhaps I see some of the same difficulties with Eastern Catholicism that Papist does.
I probably come off as very harsh because of my zeal for the truth of the Catholic faith, but I just believe it to be gravely immoral to call oneself Catholic and then reject the truths of the Church. In this day of reletivism the Church must speak with one voice, the voice she has always spoken with. Eastern Catholics need to remember the words of St. Iraneaus who says, "With this Church [Rome] all churches must agree...becuase her superior origin."

If the Eastern Catholics are absolutely correct in every doctrine and teaching, including those which are in opposition to that taught by Rome, why not just be Orthodox?  Would it not be better to be in communion with those also holding to the true faith, rather than be in communion with those holding to western heresies?  If one can hold to the Orthodox faith and be in communion with Rome, what is everyone arguing about, and why has reunion not already occured?
Both excellent question that I have been asking for the last few years. To the first one, I have never been given a sufficient answer. To the second, the EOs believe that Catholics are heretics and schismatics. Which, of course, is what traditional Latin Catholics like myself believe about the EOs (which I do not mean as an insult. I am just illustrating what the traditional Latin Catholic view is).
I'm not making a judgment in this post about whether or not the Orthodox Church or the Catholic Church is the true Church.  I haven't made up my mind about that yet.  I am simply remarking that I observe a contradiction between the beliefs of Eastern and Western Catholics, and I am wondering how this can be.
Many of us wonder about the same thing. Apostolic Christianity is simply a mess right now.

As an Eastern Orthodox Priest, I object when Eastern Catholics call themselves "Orthodox in Communion with Rome." To Eastern Orthodox if you are in Communion with a Bishop, you share a common doctrine with that Bishop. Since there are important doctrinal differences between Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism, from an Eastern Orthodox point of view a Bishop in Communion  with Rome believes the same doctrine that Rome teaches, not what Eastern Orthodox believe. Therefore you cannot be Orthodox in Communion with Rome. If you are Orthodox, you must be in Communion with the Orthodox Church.

Fr. John W. Morris
Father I'll make you a deal.  If you don't object to us using Orthodox, I won't object to you guys using Catholic.  Your argument goes both ways.

The difference is that we are Orthodox Catholics. The word "Catholic" was first used in the East by St. Ignatius of Antioch. If you are under Rome, you are not Orthodox.
The difference is that we are Orthodox Catholics. The word "Catholic" was first used in the East by St. Ignatius of Antioch. If you are not in commounion with Rome, you are not orthodox. See what I did there? Honestly, I think these areguments are pointless. They go round and round and never accomplish anything.
Problem is that Abp. St. Ignatius defined Catholic as being in communion with the local Orthodox bishop, and Orthodox was defined as holding to/teaching Orthodoxy.  Pastor Aeternus' redefinition of the terms as catholic=in submission to the supreme pontiff of the vatican (about whom Abp. St. Ignatius as successor of St. Peter at his first see of Antioch knew nothing) and orthodox=holding to what the supreme pontiff of the Vatican says came millenia too late.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Papist

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #171 on: December 18, 2013, 05:05:12 PM »
So, do Western and Eastern Catholics disagree on matters of doctrine?  In my own search for the Church, people have often suggested that I become an Eastern Catholic.  This would be a way for me to have the best of both worlds (the worlds being Catholicism and Orthodoxy).  However, the impression I have been getting is that many Eastern Catholics do not accept doctrines which are required belief in the Catholic Church.  It seems that many Eastern Catholics say to themselves, "We will acknowledge the existence of papal authority, but we will not accept any commands from this authority that are not in accord with our own Eastern tradition."  Others seem to simply pretend that these theological differences do not exist.
The problem is very complicated. If you ask people like Todd, they will outright deny essential Catholic dogmas what that are de fide statements. For example: Papal infallibility, Universial Jurisidiction, the Councils after number seven, etc. Others will accept the entirety of the Catholic faith but simply look at it from an Eastern perspective. Melikites tend to be for the former type. Most Ruthenians that I have met in person tend to be of the latter.
I have absolutely no problem with Eastern Catholics having different practices about clerical celibacy, offering the Eucharist to infants, using leavened bread, using a different liturgy, following different fasting guidelines, or having various other different disciplinary practices.  What troubles me is that there are teachings which are binding upon Catholics that many Eastern Catholics seem to either ignore or oppose.
Which is exactly the problem that I have with the current state of Eastern Catholicism. While there are many good, faithful, and saintly Eastern Catholics, there are those who took the Church's call to de-latinize as permission to abandon the Catholic faith while maintaining the name "Catholic".
Eastern Catholics should be able to be both Catholic and Eastern.  However, when an apparent conflict occurs, which is more important, to be Catholic or to be Eastern?  St. Alexis chose Eastern.  The various Eastern Catholic posters who come here and complain to the Orthodox that the Western Catholics do not appreciate or understand them seem very close to making the same choice.
This seems to echo my thoughts exactly. I cannot even begin to sympathize with a person who claims to be Catholic yet rejects the Catholic faith simply in order to be "Eastern". I don't think being an Eastern Catholic requires that one reject the faith of the Church. But some do.
I am trying to be very diplomatic and courteous about it, but perhaps I see some of the same difficulties with Eastern Catholicism that Papist does.
I probably come off as very harsh because of my zeal for the truth of the Catholic faith, but I just believe it to be gravely immoral to call oneself Catholic and then reject the truths of the Church. In this day of reletivism the Church must speak with one voice, the voice she has always spoken with. Eastern Catholics need to remember the words of St. Iraneaus who says, "With this Church [Rome] all churches must agree...becuase her superior origin."

If the Eastern Catholics are absolutely correct in every doctrine and teaching, including those which are in opposition to that taught by Rome, why not just be Orthodox?  Would it not be better to be in communion with those also holding to the true faith, rather than be in communion with those holding to western heresies?  If one can hold to the Orthodox faith and be in communion with Rome, what is everyone arguing about, and why has reunion not already occured?
Both excellent question that I have been asking for the last few years. To the first one, I have never been given a sufficient answer. To the second, the EOs believe that Catholics are heretics and schismatics. Which, of course, is what traditional Latin Catholics like myself believe about the EOs (which I do not mean as an insult. I am just illustrating what the traditional Latin Catholic view is).
I'm not making a judgment in this post about whether or not the Orthodox Church or the Catholic Church is the true Church.  I haven't made up my mind about that yet.  I am simply remarking that I observe a contradiction between the beliefs of Eastern and Western Catholics, and I am wondering how this can be.
Many of us wonder about the same thing. Apostolic Christianity is simply a mess right now.

As an Eastern Orthodox Priest, I object when Eastern Catholics call themselves "Orthodox in Communion with Rome." To Eastern Orthodox if you are in Communion with a Bishop, you share a common doctrine with that Bishop. Since there are important doctrinal differences between Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism, from an Eastern Orthodox point of view a Bishop in Communion  with Rome believes the same doctrine that Rome teaches, not what Eastern Orthodox believe. Therefore you cannot be Orthodox in Communion with Rome. If you are Orthodox, you must be in Communion with the Orthodox Church.

Fr. John W. Morris
Father I'll make you a deal.  If you don't object to us using Orthodox, I won't object to you guys using Catholic.  Your argument goes both ways.

The difference is that we are Orthodox Catholics. The word "Catholic" was first used in the East by St. Ignatius of Antioch. If you are under Rome, you are not Orthodox.
The difference is that we are Orthodox Catholics. The word "Catholic" was first used in the East by St. Ignatius of Antioch. If you are not in commounion with Rome, you are not orthodox. See what I did there? Honestly, I think these areguments are pointless. They go round and round and never accomplish anything.
Problem is that Abp. St. Ignatius defined Catholic as being in communion with the local Orthodox bishop, and Orthodox was defined as holding to/teaching Orthodoxy.  Pastor Aeternus' redefinition of the terms as catholic=in submission to the supreme pontiff of the vatican (about whom Abp. St. Ignatius as successor of St. Peter at his first see of Antioch knew nothing) and orthodox=holding to what the supreme pontiff of the Vatican says came millenia too late.
I'm Catholic!
No, I'm Catholic!
No, I'm Catholic!
Whatever, I'm Catholic.
My posts no longer forum here.

Offline frjohnmorris

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #172 on: December 18, 2013, 05:25:20 PM »
But, to be fair, the Orthodox don't claim the name "Roman" or "Rome".

Oh wait ...

 ;)

Actually we do. In Arabic what we call Greek Orthodox is literally Roman (Rhum) Orthodox because the we were the Church of the Roman Empire which lasted until 1453 when the Turks conquered Constntinople.  Following their Islamic religion, the Turks organized various people according to their religion. Eastern Orthodox were called the Rhum Millet or Roman Nation under the Turks and because of that we are called Rhum Orthodox in the Arabic speaking world.

Fr. John W. Morris

Offline frjohnmorris

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #173 on: December 18, 2013, 05:37:39 PM »
So, do Western and Eastern Catholics disagree on matters of doctrine?  In my own search for the Church, people have often suggested that I become an Eastern Catholic.  This would be a way for me to have the best of both worlds (the worlds being Catholicism and Orthodoxy).  However, the impression I have been getting is that many Eastern Catholics do not accept doctrines which are required belief in the Catholic Church.  It seems that many Eastern Catholics say to themselves, "We will acknowledge the existence of papal authority, but we will not accept any commands from this authority that are not in accord with our own Eastern tradition."  Others seem to simply pretend that these theological differences do not exist.
The problem is very complicated. If you ask people like Todd, they will outright deny essential Catholic dogmas what that are de fide statements. For example: Papal infallibility, Universial Jurisidiction, the Councils after number seven, etc. Others will accept the entirety of the Catholic faith but simply look at it from an Eastern perspective. Melikites tend to be for the former type. Most Ruthenians that I have met in person tend to be of the latter.
I have absolutely no problem with Eastern Catholics having different practices about clerical celibacy, offering the Eucharist to infants, using leavened bread, using a different liturgy, following different fasting guidelines, or having various other different disciplinary practices.  What troubles me is that there are teachings which are binding upon Catholics that many Eastern Catholics seem to either ignore or oppose.
Which is exactly the problem that I have with the current state of Eastern Catholicism. While there are many good, faithful, and saintly Eastern Catholics, there are those who took the Church's call to de-latinize as permission to abandon the Catholic faith while maintaining the name "Catholic".
Eastern Catholics should be able to be both Catholic and Eastern.  However, when an apparent conflict occurs, which is more important, to be Catholic or to be Eastern?  St. Alexis chose Eastern.  The various Eastern Catholic posters who come here and complain to the Orthodox that the Western Catholics do not appreciate or understand them seem very close to making the same choice.
This seems to echo my thoughts exactly. I cannot even begin to sympathize with a person who claims to be Catholic yet rejects the Catholic faith simply in order to be "Eastern". I don't think being an Eastern Catholic requires that one reject the faith of the Church. But some do.
I am trying to be very diplomatic and courteous about it, but perhaps I see some of the same difficulties with Eastern Catholicism that Papist does.
I probably come off as very harsh because of my zeal for the truth of the Catholic faith, but I just believe it to be gravely immoral to call oneself Catholic and then reject the truths of the Church. In this day of reletivism the Church must speak with one voice, the voice she has always spoken with. Eastern Catholics need to remember the words of St. Iraneaus who says, "With this Church [Rome] all churches must agree...becuase her superior origin."

If the Eastern Catholics are absolutely correct in every doctrine and teaching, including those which are in opposition to that taught by Rome, why not just be Orthodox?  Would it not be better to be in communion with those also holding to the true faith, rather than be in communion with those holding to western heresies?  If one can hold to the Orthodox faith and be in communion with Rome, what is everyone arguing about, and why has reunion not already occured?
Both excellent question that I have been asking for the last few years. To the first one, I have never been given a sufficient answer. To the second, the EOs believe that Catholics are heretics and schismatics. Which, of course, is what traditional Latin Catholics like myself believe about the EOs (which I do not mean as an insult. I am just illustrating what the traditional Latin Catholic view is).
I'm not making a judgment in this post about whether or not the Orthodox Church or the Catholic Church is the true Church.  I haven't made up my mind about that yet.  I am simply remarking that I observe a contradiction between the beliefs of Eastern and Western Catholics, and I am wondering how this can be.
Many of us wonder about the same thing. Apostolic Christianity is simply a mess right now.

As an Eastern Orthodox Priest, I object when Eastern Catholics call themselves "Orthodox in Communion with Rome." To Eastern Orthodox if you are in Communion with a Bishop, you share a common doctrine with that Bishop. Since there are important doctrinal differences between Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism, from an Eastern Orthodox point of view a Bishop in Communion  with Rome believes the same doctrine that Rome teaches, not what Eastern Orthodox believe. Therefore you cannot be Orthodox in Communion with Rome. If you are Orthodox, you must be in Communion with the Orthodox Church.

Fr. John W. Morris
Father I'll make you a deal.  If you don't object to us using Orthodox, I won't object to you guys using Catholic.  Your argument goes both ways.

The difference is that we are Orthodox Catholics. The word "Catholic" was first used in the East by St. Ignatius of Antioch. If you are under Rome, you are not Orthodox.
The difference is that we are Orthodox Catholics. The word "Catholic" was first used in the East by St. Ignatius of Antioch. If you are not in commounion with Rome, you are not orthodox. See what I did there? Honestly, I think these areguments are pointless. They go round and round and never accomplish anything.
Problem is that Abp. St. Ignatius defined Catholic as being in communion with the local Orthodox bishop, and Orthodox was defined as holding to/teaching Orthodoxy.  Pastor Aeternus' redefinition of the terms as catholic=in submission to the supreme pontiff of the vatican (about whom Abp. St. Ignatius as successor of St. Peter at his first see of Antioch knew nothing) and orthodox=holding to what the supreme pontiff of the Vatican says came millenia too late.

You are right at the time of St. Ignatius of Antioch no one believed in anything like the modern papacy. It took centuries for Rome to move from a primacy of honor as "first among equals" to the all powerful papacy of today. What Rome would like for most people to forget or ignore most of the claims of the papacy are not based on the New Testament, the Holy Fathers, the practices of the ancient undivided Church, or the decisions of the 7 Ecumenical Councils, but on document called the Donation of Constantine. According to this document after Pope St. Sylvester cured him of leprosy, St. Constantine gave him a document giving the Bishop of Rome supreme power in the Church. However, there are two major problems with the Donation of Constantine. The first is that St. Constantine had no authority to give anyone supreme authority in the Church. The second is that it was proven by Lorenzo Valla (1407-1457) that the document was a forgery. In his letter demanding obedience from Patriarch Michael I in 1054, Pope Leo IX based his argument on the Donation of Constantine. Therefore, most of the papal claims are illegitimate.

Fr. John W. Morris

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #174 on: December 18, 2013, 05:41:16 PM »
But, to be fair, the Orthodox don't claim the name "Roman" or "Rome".

Oh wait ...

 ;)

Actually we do. In Arabic what we call Greek Orthodox is literally Roman (Rhum) Orthodox because the we were the Church of the Roman Empire which lasted until 1453 when the Turks conquered Constntinople.  Following their Islamic religion, the Turks organized various people according to their religion. Eastern Orthodox were called the Rhum Millet or Roman Nation under the Turks and because of that we are called Rhum Orthodox in the Arabic speaking world.

Fr. John W. Morris
You have to understand Peter J: that is what he was getting at, Father.  Because we defend our copyright to Orthodox and Catholic, the Romans of the East are supposed to relinquish their title to "Rome."

There is a Roman Orthodox bishop in Rome.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline frjohnmorris

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #175 on: December 18, 2013, 05:47:38 PM »
But, to be fair, the Orthodox don't claim the name "Roman" or "Rome".

Oh wait ...

 ;)

Actually we do. In Arabic what we call Greek Orthodox is literally Roman (Rhum) Orthodox because the we were the Church of the Roman Empire which lasted until 1453 when the Turks conquered Constntinople.  Following their Islamic religion, the Turks organized various people according to their religion. Eastern Orthodox were called the Rhum Millet or Roman Nation under the Turks and because of that we are called Rhum Orthodox in the Arabic speaking world.

Fr. John W. Morris
You have to understand Peter J: that is what he was getting at, Father.  Because we defend our copyright to Orthodox and Catholic, the Romans of the East are supposed to relinquish their title to "Rome."

There is a Roman Orthodox bishop in Rome.


As far as I know there is no Orthodox Bishop in Rome. It is not a matter of copyright. It is a matter of truth. We are the Orthodox Church. It is misleading for group that is not a part of the Orthodox Church, but is under Rome to use the name of our Church.

Fr. John W. Morris

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #176 on: December 18, 2013, 06:15:53 PM »
As far as I know there is no Orthodox Bishop in Rome.
His grace Bp. Siluan,

enthroned, Father, at his cathedral in Rome in 2008.

In Romanian, Italian and some English (besides Google):
http://www.mitropolia.eu/ro/site/64/
http://episcopia-italiei.it/index.php/ro/
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline frjohnmorris

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #177 on: December 18, 2013, 09:07:51 PM »
As far as I know there is no Orthodox Bishop in Rome.
His grace Bp. Siluan,

enthroned, Father, at his cathedral in Rome in 2008.

In Romanian, Italian and some English (besides Google):
http://www.mitropolia.eu/ro/site/64/
http://episcopia-italiei.it/index.php/ro/

So now I know. The Romanian Orthodox Church has a Bishop in Rome.

Fr. John W. Morris

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #178 on: December 18, 2013, 09:50:16 PM »
The difference is that we are Orthodox Catholics. The word "Catholic" was first used in the East by St. Ignatius of Antioch. If you are under Rome, you are not Orthodox. This issue is one of the greatest sources of tension between Eastern Orthodox and the Catholic Church. It is dishonest for a group under Rome to call themselves "Orthodox in Communion with Rome," because you cannot be Orthodox and be in Communion with Rome until Rome abandons all teachings like Purgatory, the Augustinian conception of original sin, and most of all papal supremacy, claims to universal jurisdiction and infallibility. Even if you use the Byzantine Liturgy if your Bishop in in Communion with Rome according to Orthodox theology that means that you share a Common Faith with Rome including the Roman teachings that contradict the teaching of the ancient undivided Church.
How about this, you let the Orthodox Church decide who is really Orthodox?
Fr. John W. Morris
Father that is circular logic. Obviously Orthodox believe they are Catholic, and Catholics believe they are Orthodox.  I could say: "If you are not under Rome, you are not Catholic."  You would not accept that, nor should you.  So no, I will not let the Orthodox Church decide who is really Orthodox, aymore than you will let the Catholic Church decide who is really Catholic.  And besides, the whole "Orthodox in Communion with Rome" title usage is largely limited to a very few on the internet and even fewer in real life.  I would be more concerned about vagantes parading as the "Orthodox Catholic Church of North America" and such. 
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

Offline Peter J

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #179 on: December 18, 2013, 09:53:05 PM »
But, to be fair, the Orthodox don't claim the name "Roman" or "Rome".

Oh wait ...

 ;)

Actually we do. In Arabic what we call Greek Orthodox is literally Roman (Rhum) Orthodox because the we were the Church of the Roman Empire which lasted until 1453 when the Turks conquered Constntinople.  Following their Islamic religion, the Turks organized various people according to their religion. Eastern Orthodox were called the Rhum Millet or Roman Nation under the Turks and because of that we are called Rhum Orthodox in the Arabic speaking world.

Fr. John W. Morris

Alright. (Anyhow, the "Oh wait ...  ;)" was a reference to ialmisry, as he just graciously illustrated. :))
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