Author Topic: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism  (Read 64470 times)

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Offline JoeS2

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #225 on: December 29, 2013, 05:55:00 PM »
Whatever the Melkites  are they are not Orthodox. The Melkites certainly do not have the right to self-rule that an autocephalous Church has within Orthodoxy, because by being in Communion with the Pope they recognize as valid the decisions of the 1st Vatican Council which gives all authority within the Catholic Church to the Pope. Orthodox do not recognize the papal claims to universal jurisdiction and infallibility. If the Melkites  do not accept the teachings of the Catholic Church, then why are they in Communion with Rome? I am not trying to offend or insult the Melkites, or any other Eastern Catholic group. I am just calling for honesty. If the Melkites were really Orthodox, they could not accept the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church on the authority of the Pope. When a Melkite Patriarch who has voiced some objections to Vatican 1 visited Pope Pius IX, the Pope ordered his guards to force the Patriarch to kneel before him and pushed his head down to the floor with his foot. No Orthodox Patriarch would take that kind of humiliation.

Fr. John W. Morris

It seems clear to me, Father, that you are acting as your own worst enemy: when you say that Patriarch Gregory II wasn't "Orthodox in communion with Rome" because of atrocious behavior by Pope Pius IX, you're bound to lose even the people who appreciated the good arguments you put forward earlier.

That is a matter of opinion. This incident shows that the Melkites are not Orthodox.  The Melkites stayed in Communion with Rome despite the public humiliation of their Patriarch by one of the most power hungry Popes in modern history. My argument is that you cannot be Orthodox and accept the dogmatic decrees of the 1st Vatican Council.

Fr. John W. Morris

Agreed !

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #226 on: December 29, 2013, 06:43:11 PM »
Ha! I was gonna say this topic is hilrious.  :D

Anyway, what made you change your mind about Eastern Catholicism?

Even though I don't know you or anyone else here at all, I'm pretty curious, too. Is that a personal question or are you comfortable sharing?
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #227 on: December 30, 2013, 04:08:07 PM »
Anyway, what made you change your mind about Eastern Catholicism?

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #228 on: December 30, 2013, 04:27:49 PM »
Ha! I was gonna say this topic is hilrious.  :D

Anyway, what made you change your mind about Eastern Catholicism?

Even though I don't know you or anyone else here at all, I'm pretty curious, too. Is that a personal question or are you comfortable sharing?
Well, I grew up for one thing.  :D

I think everyone around here knows that there was a time when I was kind of a jerk around these parts. I like think that I've changed a bit. Maybe I'm wrong.

But more specifically, I realized that Latin and Byzantine theology do not come into the kinds of conflicts that I thought they did. For me, the biggest point of contention was the essence/energies distinction and the Latin doctrine of Divine Simplicity. After having studied both positions in greater depth, I realized that they were describing the same mystery but from differing perspectives. My studies in philosophy helped a great deal in this regard.

Additionally, I came to find that when it comes to theology, spirituality, liturgy, praxis, the Byzantine approach is much more in line with the needs of my spiritual life.
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Offline JR

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #229 on: December 31, 2013, 08:01:19 AM »
Ha! I was gonna say this topic is hilrious.  :D

Anyway, what made you change your mind about Eastern Catholicism?

Even though I don't know you or anyone else here at all, I'm pretty curious, too. Is that a personal question or are you comfortable sharing?
Well, I grew up for one thing.  :D

I think everyone around here knows that there was a time when I was kind of a jerk around these parts. I like think that I've changed a bit. Maybe I'm wrong.

But more specifically, I realized that Latin and Byzantine theology do not come into the kinds of conflicts that I thought they did. For me, the biggest point of contention was the essence/energies distinction and the Latin doctrine of Divine Simplicity. After having studied both positions in greater depth, I realized that they were describing the same mystery but from differing perspectives. My studies in philosophy helped a great deal in this regard.

Additionally, I came to find that when it comes to theology, spirituality, liturgy, praxis, the Byzantine approach is much more in line with the needs of my spiritual life.

Congratulations Papist  ;D
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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #230 on: January 02, 2014, 02:22:00 PM »
Ha! I was gonna say this topic is hilrious.  :D

Anyway, what made you change your mind about Eastern Catholicism?

Even though I don't know you or anyone else here at all, I'm pretty curious, too. Is that a personal question or are you comfortable sharing?
Well, I grew up for one thing.  :D

I think everyone around here knows that there was a time when I was kind of a jerk around these parts. I like think that I've changed a bit. Maybe I'm wrong.

But more specifically, I realized that Latin and Byzantine theology do not come into the kinds of conflicts that I thought they did. For me, the biggest point of contention was the essence/energies distinction and the Latin doctrine of Divine Simplicity. After having studied both positions in greater depth, I realized that they were describing the same mystery but from differing perspectives. My studies in philosophy helped a great deal in this regard.

Additionally, I came to find that when it comes to theology, spirituality, liturgy, praxis, the Byzantine approach is much more in line with the needs of my spiritual life.

Congratulations Papist  ;D
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Offline frjohnmorris

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #231 on: January 04, 2014, 11:49:33 PM »
I am not OCA or ACROD and know nothing on the personal level on their relations with Eastern Catholics. I have also had no exposure to the Eastern Catholics, so I know nothing about Eastern Catholics  except what I have read in history books all of which refer to Byzantine Rite Eastern Catholics as Uniates.

It is on me when it confuses they confuse the Faithful by offering them Communion and telling them that they are Orthodox when they are not. They first began to gain a following in the Middle East by offering Byzantine worship with much easier fasting traditions than are observed by the Orthodox Church. At that time, 1724, the Turks governed their subject peoples through their religion. A person could escape a fine or worse, from an Orthodox Bishop by joining the Eastern Catholics.

Fr. John W. Morris

You claim to know nothing about us and then go on to accuse us.  Let me guess you are a convert from Protestantism?  The split in Antioch of 1724 had everything to do with Greek domination of the native Arabs and nothing to do with fasts or fines.  You need to get yourself better books.

And Melkites communing Antiochians and Antiochians communing Melkites is common in the Middle East.
But Melkites.  No Ukrainian, Ruthenians, Greeks or Latins in submission to the Vatican.

Greek domination of the native Arabs came in reaction after 1724.

There are historical reasons why there has always been a strong Greek influence on the Eastern Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch.
Antioch was a Greek speaking city founded by Seleucus I Nicator one of Alexander the Great's generals. So Greek is not foreign to the Patriarchate of Antioch. In 1098 the Patriarchs of Antioch had to seek refuge in Constantinople after they were thrown out of their see by the Crusaders who put a Latin Bishop in his place. When the Mamluks captured Antioch in 1269 the Eastern Orthodox Patriarch Theodosius IV returned the seat of the Eastern Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch to Antioch. Their exile for almost 200 years in Constantinople would lead to a strong Greek influence on the Eastern Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch. After an earthquake destroyed Antioch, Patriarch Ignatius III d. 2386 moved the Patriarchate to Damascus, where it remains today. The Turks placed the administration of all Eastern Orthodox under the Ecumenical Patriarchate. That also would also explain strong Greek influence on the Eastern Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch. Finally, pro-Latin missionaries, chiefly Jesuits, came to the Middle East to win converts for Rome. With the support of France and other Catholic nations who used their influence with the Turks to support the efforts of the Catholic missionaries to persuade the Orthodox to accept the papacy the pro-papal party was able to elect one of their supporters, who called himself Cyril IV,  Patriarch of Antioch. After Cyril left the Eastern Orthodox Church and submitted to the papacy, those faithful to Orthodoxy naturally turned to Constantinople as is provided for by canon IX of the 4th Ecumenical Council, Chalcedon in 431, which gives a Bishop who has a conflict with his primate or Patriarch the right to appeal to Constantinople for a ruling on the merits of his case. Naturally, the Ecumenical Patriarch supported the Antiochian Bishops loyal to Eastern Orthodoxy against Cyril who lost his claim to the Orthodox Throne of Antioch by his submission to Rome. The result was the selection of a Greek who became Patriarch Sylvester and the election of a series of Greek Patriarchs to protect our Patriarchte from the efforts of supporters of Rome to take our people from us. However, in 1899, with the election of Patriarch Meletius II, the Patriarchate was once again held by a native Arab as it has been ever since. The current Patriarch of Antioch is John X. Therefore, had the agents of Rome not interfered in the internal affairs of Antioch, there would have been no Greek domination of our Patriarchate

Fr. John W. Morris

Offline JoeS2

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #232 on: February 22, 2014, 10:57:54 AM »
Serious as the Pope on Pascha, I want to know what you're thinking.  I'm not baiting, I am being serious.

When Eastern Catholics do the say that is ok to reject:
1) Purgatory
2) The Immaculate Conception
3) The Ecumenical Councils between the seventh and Vatican II
4) Original Sin
5) Papal Infallibility
6) The Universal Jurisdiction of the Pope
7) The procession of the Holy Spirit from the Father and the Son
etc.
When they reject these and then state that its ok with the Church to do so, they are misrepresenting Catholicism to the world.

I may be mistaken but didn't Rome allow the Eastern Catholics to maintain their beliefs as a means to unity?  Or, are the Eastern Catholics merely a quaint rite of the Roman Catholic Church?

Offline frjohnmorris

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #233 on: February 22, 2014, 11:21:10 AM »
Serious as the Pope on Pascha, I want to know what you're thinking.  I'm not baiting, I am being serious.

When Eastern Catholics do the say that is ok to reject:
1) Purgatory
2) The Immaculate Conception
3) The Ecumenical Councils between the seventh and Vatican II
4) Original Sin
5) Papal Infallibility
6) The Universal Jurisdiction of the Pope
7) The procession of the Holy Spirit from the Father and the Son
etc.
When they reject these and then state that its ok with the Church to do so, they are misrepresenting Catholicism to the world.

I may be mistaken but didn't Rome allow the Eastern Catholics to maintain their beliefs as a means to unity?  Or, are the Eastern Catholics merely a quaint rite of the Roman Catholic Church?

In theory, Rome required them to accept papal supremacy and all other Roman Catholic doctrines, but allowed them to keep their liturgical traditions and married priests. However, some Eastern Catholics adopted more Roman Catholic doctrine than others. Some Byzantine Rite Eastern Catholics are closer to Orthodoxy than other Byzantine Rite Eastern  Catholics who are very Latinized. In America, Rome did not allow married priests among the Eastern Catholics because it upset the Latin Rite majority.

Fr. John W. Morris

Offline JoeS2

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #234 on: February 22, 2014, 01:11:31 PM »
Serious as the Pope on Pascha, I want to know what you're thinking.  I'm not baiting, I am being serious.

When Eastern Catholics do the say that is ok to reject:
1) Purgatory
2) The Immaculate Conception
3) The Ecumenical Councils between the seventh and Vatican II
4) Original Sin
5) Papal Infallibility
6) The Universal Jurisdiction of the Pope
7) The procession of the Holy Spirit from the Father and the Son
etc.
When they reject these and then state that its ok with the Church to do so, they are misrepresenting Catholicism to the world.

I may be mistaken but didn't Rome allow the Eastern Catholics to maintain their beliefs as a means to unity?  Or, are the Eastern Catholics merely a quaint rite of the Roman Catholic Church?

In theory, Rome required them to accept papal supremacy and all other Roman Catholic doctrines, but allowed them to keep their liturgical traditions and married priests. However, some Eastern Catholics adopted more Roman Catholic doctrine than others. Some Byzantine Rite Eastern Catholics are closer to Orthodoxy than other Byzantine Rite Eastern  Catholics who are very Latinized. In America, Rome did not allow married priests among the Eastern Catholics because it upset the Latin Rite majority.

Fr. John W. Morris

So, it cost the Easterners their ancient Tradition and Dogma beliefs to enter into union with Rome?

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #235 on: February 22, 2014, 01:14:03 PM »
Serious as the Pope on Pascha, I want to know what you're thinking.  I'm not baiting, I am being serious.

When Eastern Catholics do the say that is ok to reject:
1) Purgatory
2) The Immaculate Conception
3) The Ecumenical Councils between the seventh and Vatican II
4) Original Sin
5) Papal Infallibility
6) The Universal Jurisdiction of the Pope
7) The procession of the Holy Spirit from the Father and the Son
etc.
When they reject these and then state that its ok with the Church to do so, they are misrepresenting Catholicism to the world.

I may be mistaken but didn't Rome allow the Eastern Catholics to maintain their beliefs as a means to unity?  Or, are the Eastern Catholics merely a quaint rite of the Roman Catholic Church?

In theory, Rome required them to accept papal supremacy and all other Roman Catholic doctrines, but allowed them to keep their liturgical traditions and married priests. However, some Eastern Catholics adopted more Roman Catholic doctrine than others. Some Byzantine Rite Eastern Catholics are closer to Orthodoxy than other Byzantine Rite Eastern  Catholics who are very Latinized. In America, Rome did not allow married priests among the Eastern Catholics because it upset the Latin Rite majority.

Fr. John W. Morris

So, it cost the Easterners their ancient Tradition and Dogma beliefs to enter into union with Rome?

If you read the text of the Union of Brest, they basically agreed to disagree on points of contention, ie, the Greek Catholics didn't have to accept some of the theology but they couldn't challenge it either. 

Within 100 years a lot of that got thrown out the window in practice. 

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #236 on: February 22, 2014, 01:16:01 PM »
Serious as the Pope on Pascha, I want to know what you're thinking.  I'm not baiting, I am being serious.

When Eastern Catholics do the say that is ok to reject:
1) Purgatory
2) The Immaculate Conception
3) The Ecumenical Councils between the seventh and Vatican II
4) Original Sin
5) Papal Infallibility
6) The Universal Jurisdiction of the Pope
7) The procession of the Holy Spirit from the Father and the Son
etc.
When they reject these and then state that its ok with the Church to do so, they are misrepresenting Catholicism to the world.

I may be mistaken but didn't Rome allow the Eastern Catholics to maintain their beliefs as a means to unity?  Or, are the Eastern Catholics merely a quaint rite of the Roman Catholic Church?

In theory, Rome required them to accept papal supremacy and all other Roman Catholic doctrines, but allowed them to keep their liturgical traditions and married priests. However, some Eastern Catholics adopted more Roman Catholic doctrine than others. Some Byzantine Rite Eastern Catholics are closer to Orthodoxy than other Byzantine Rite Eastern  Catholics who are very Latinized. In America, Rome did not allow married priests among the Eastern Catholics because it upset the Latin Rite majority.

Fr. John W. Morris

So, it cost the Easterners their ancient Tradition and Dogma beliefs to enter into union with Rome?

If you read the text of the Union of Brest, they basically agreed to disagree on points of contention, ie, the Greek Catholics didn't have to accept some of the theology but they couldn't challenge it either. 

Within 100 years a lot of that got thrown out the window in practice. 

Ah, parallel Theologies, how quaint.  Sounds confusing.....almost schizophrenic.

Offline frjohnmorris

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #237 on: February 22, 2014, 01:42:22 PM »
Serious as the Pope on Pascha, I want to know what you're thinking.  I'm not baiting, I am being serious.

When Eastern Catholics do the say that is ok to reject:
1) Purgatory
2) The Immaculate Conception
3) The Ecumenical Councils between the seventh and Vatican II
4) Original Sin
5) Papal Infallibility
6) The Universal Jurisdiction of the Pope
7) The procession of the Holy Spirit from the Father and the Son
etc.
When they reject these and then state that its ok with the Church to do so, they are misrepresenting Catholicism to the world.

I may be mistaken but didn't Rome allow the Eastern Catholics to maintain their beliefs as a means to unity?  Or, are the Eastern Catholics merely a quaint rite of the Roman Catholic Church?

In theory, Rome required them to accept papal supremacy and all other Roman Catholic doctrines, but allowed them to keep their liturgical traditions and married priests. However, some Eastern Catholics adopted more Roman Catholic doctrine than others. Some Byzantine Rite Eastern Catholics are closer to Orthodoxy than other Byzantine Rite Eastern  Catholics who are very Latinized. In America, Rome did not allow married priests among the Eastern Catholics because it upset the Latin Rite majority.

Fr. John W. Morris

So, it cost the Easterners their ancient Tradition and Dogma beliefs to enter into union with Rome?

If you read the text of the Union of Brest, they basically agreed to disagree on points of contention, ie, the Greek Catholics didn't have to accept some of the theology but they couldn't challenge it either. 

Within 100 years a lot of that got thrown out the window in practice. 

When the Byzantine Catholics sent a delegation to Rome after the Union of Brest, they were told that they had to accept all Roman Catholic doctrines. Rome sent Jesuits to teach Roman Catholic doctrine to the Byzantine Catholics in Poland. In 1895 the Ecumencal Patriarch sent an encyclical in response to a letter from Pope Leo XIII calling for reunion. It contains a passage that is relevant to this discussion:
"Since, however, from a certain period the Papal Church, having abandoned the method of persuasion and discussion, began, to our general astonishment and perplexity, to lay traps for the conscience of the more simple orthodox Christians by means of deceitful workers transformed into apostles of Christ, [3] sending into the East clerics with the dress and headcovering of orthodox priests, inventing also divers and other artful means to obtain her proselytizing objects; for this reason, as in sacred duty bound, we issue this patriarchal and synodical encyclical, for a safeguard of the orthodox faith and piety, knowing 'that the observance of the true canons is a duty for every good man, and much more for those who have been thought worthy by Providence to direct the affairs of others."

Fr. John W. Morris

Offline JoeS2

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #238 on: February 22, 2014, 06:06:30 PM »
Serious as the Pope on Pascha, I want to know what you're thinking.  I'm not baiting, I am being serious.

When Eastern Catholics do the say that is ok to reject:
1) Purgatory
2) The Immaculate Conception
3) The Ecumenical Councils between the seventh and Vatican II
4) Original Sin
5) Papal Infallibility
6) The Universal Jurisdiction of the Pope
7) The procession of the Holy Spirit from the Father and the Son
etc.
When they reject these and then state that its ok with the Church to do so, they are misrepresenting Catholicism to the world.

I may be mistaken but didn't Rome allow the Eastern Catholics to maintain their beliefs as a means to unity?  Or, are the Eastern Catholics merely a quaint rite of the Roman Catholic Church?

In theory, Rome required them to accept papal supremacy and all other Roman Catholic doctrines, but allowed them to keep their liturgical traditions and married priests. However, some Eastern Catholics adopted more Roman Catholic doctrine than others. Some Byzantine Rite Eastern Catholics are closer to Orthodoxy than other Byzantine Rite Eastern  Catholics who are very Latinized. In America, Rome did not allow married priests among the Eastern Catholics because it upset the Latin Rite majority.

Fr. John W. Morris

So, it cost the Easterners their ancient Tradition and Dogma beliefs to enter into union with Rome?

If you read the text of the Union of Brest, they basically agreed to disagree on points of contention, ie, the Greek Catholics didn't have to accept some of the theology but they couldn't challenge it either. 

Within 100 years a lot of that got thrown out the window in practice. 

When the Byzantine Catholics sent a delegation to Rome after the Union of Brest, they were told that they had to accept all Roman Catholic doctrines. Rome sent Jesuits to teach Roman Catholic doctrine to the Byzantine Catholics in Poland. In 1895 the Ecumencal Patriarch sent an encyclical in response to a letter from Pope Leo XIII calling for reunion. It contains a passage that is relevant to this discussion:
"Since, however, from a certain period the Papal Church, having abandoned the method of persuasion and discussion, began, to our general astonishment and perplexity, to lay traps for the conscience of the more simple orthodox Christians by means of deceitful workers transformed into apostles of Christ, [3] sending into the East clerics with the dress and headcovering of orthodox priests, inventing also divers and other artful means to obtain her proselytizing objects; for this reason, as in sacred duty bound, we issue this patriarchal and synodical encyclical, for a safeguard of the orthodox faith and piety, knowing 'that the observance of the true canons is a duty for every good man, and much more for those who have been thought worthy by Providence to direct the affairs of others."

Fr. John W. Morris

If I am reading this correctly, I get the impression that the Roman church disguised itself as an Eastern church in garb and other deceptive methods to satisfy those who were already unionized?   If this is true, why would the clerics then, in spite of this, continue this masquerade ?

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #239 on: February 22, 2014, 06:08:41 PM »
Serious as the Pope on Pascha, I want to know what you're thinking.  I'm not baiting, I am being serious.

When Eastern Catholics do the say that is ok to reject:
1) Purgatory
2) The Immaculate Conception
3) The Ecumenical Councils between the seventh and Vatican II
4) Original Sin
5) Papal Infallibility
6) The Universal Jurisdiction of the Pope
7) The procession of the Holy Spirit from the Father and the Son
etc.
When they reject these and then state that its ok with the Church to do so, they are misrepresenting Catholicism to the world.

I may be mistaken but didn't Rome allow the Eastern Catholics to maintain their beliefs as a means to unity?  Or, are the Eastern Catholics merely a quaint rite of the Roman Catholic Church?

In theory, Rome required them to accept papal supremacy and all other Roman Catholic doctrines, but allowed them to keep their liturgical traditions and married priests. However, some Eastern Catholics adopted more Roman Catholic doctrine than others. Some Byzantine Rite Eastern Catholics are closer to Orthodoxy than other Byzantine Rite Eastern  Catholics who are very Latinized. In America, Rome did not allow married priests among the Eastern Catholics because it upset the Latin Rite majority.

Fr. John W. Morris

So, it cost the Easterners their ancient Tradition and Dogma beliefs to enter into union with Rome?

If you read the text of the Union of Brest, they basically agreed to disagree on points of contention, ie, the Greek Catholics didn't have to accept some of the theology but they couldn't challenge it either. 

Within 100 years a lot of that got thrown out the window in practice. 

When the Byzantine Catholics sent a delegation to Rome after the Union of Brest, they were told that they had to accept all Roman Catholic doctrines. Rome sent Jesuits to teach Roman Catholic doctrine to the Byzantine Catholics in Poland. In 1895 the Ecumencal Patriarch sent an encyclical in response to a letter from Pope Leo XIII calling for reunion. It contains a passage that is relevant to this discussion:
"Since, however, from a certain period the Papal Church, having abandoned the method of persuasion and discussion, began, to our general astonishment and perplexity, to lay traps for the conscience of the more simple orthodox Christians by means of deceitful workers transformed into apostles of Christ, [3] sending into the East clerics with the dress and headcovering of orthodox priests, inventing also divers and other artful means to obtain her proselytizing objects; for this reason, as in sacred duty bound, we issue this patriarchal and synodical encyclical, for a safeguard of the orthodox faith and piety, knowing 'that the observance of the true canons is a duty for every good man, and much more for those who have been thought worthy by Providence to direct the affairs of others."

Fr. John W. Morris

If I am reading this correctly, I get the impression that the Roman church disguised itself as an Eastern church in garb and other deceptive methods to satisfy those who were already unionized?   If this is true, why would the clerics then, in spite of this, continue this masquerade ?

That wasn't the initial action that Rome took in Unionization, but it has been since then. They made Eastern Rites to lure people into communion with Rome.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2014, 06:09:16 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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Offline JoeS2

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #240 on: February 22, 2014, 06:42:51 PM »
Serious as the Pope on Pascha, I want to know what you're thinking.  I'm not baiting, I am being serious.

When Eastern Catholics do the say that is ok to reject:
1) Purgatory
2) The Immaculate Conception
3) The Ecumenical Councils between the seventh and Vatican II
4) Original Sin
5) Papal Infallibility
6) The Universal Jurisdiction of the Pope
7) The procession of the Holy Spirit from the Father and the Son
etc.
When they reject these and then state that its ok with the Church to do so, they are misrepresenting Catholicism to the world.

I may be mistaken but didn't Rome allow the Eastern Catholics to maintain their beliefs as a means to unity?  Or, are the Eastern Catholics merely a quaint rite of the Roman Catholic Church?

In theory, Rome required them to accept papal supremacy and all other Roman Catholic doctrines, but allowed them to keep their liturgical traditions and married priests. However, some Eastern Catholics adopted more Roman Catholic doctrine than others. Some Byzantine Rite Eastern Catholics are closer to Orthodoxy than other Byzantine Rite Eastern  Catholics who are very Latinized. In America, Rome did not allow married priests among the Eastern Catholics because it upset the Latin Rite majority.

Fr. John W. Morris

So, it cost the Easterners their ancient Tradition and Dogma beliefs to enter into union with Rome?

If you read the text of the Union of Brest, they basically agreed to disagree on points of contention, ie, the Greek Catholics didn't have to accept some of the theology but they couldn't challenge it either. 

Within 100 years a lot of that got thrown out the window in practice. 

When the Byzantine Catholics sent a delegation to Rome after the Union of Brest, they were told that they had to accept all Roman Catholic doctrines. Rome sent Jesuits to teach Roman Catholic doctrine to the Byzantine Catholics in Poland. In 1895 the Ecumencal Patriarch sent an encyclical in response to a letter from Pope Leo XIII calling for reunion. It contains a passage that is relevant to this discussion:
"Since, however, from a certain period the Papal Church, having abandoned the method of persuasion and discussion, began, to our general astonishment and perplexity, to lay traps for the conscience of the more simple orthodox Christians by means of deceitful workers transformed into apostles of Christ, [3] sending into the East clerics with the dress and headcovering of orthodox priests, inventing also divers and other artful means to obtain her proselytizing objects; for this reason, as in sacred duty bound, we issue this patriarchal and synodical encyclical, for a safeguard of the orthodox faith and piety, knowing 'that the observance of the true canons is a duty for every good man, and much more for those who have been thought worthy by Providence to direct the affairs of others."

Fr. John W. Morris

If I am reading this correctly, I get the impression that the Roman church disguised itself as an Eastern church in garb and other deceptive methods to satisfy those who were already unionized?   If this is true, why would the clerics then, in spite of this, continue this masquerade ?

That wasn't the initial action that Rome took in Unionization, but it has been since then. They made Eastern Rites to lure people into communion with Rome.


Hmm nice church, and who is the prince of deception?

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #241 on: February 23, 2014, 07:58:02 AM »
If I am reading this correctly, I get the impression that the Roman church disguised itself as an Eastern church in garb and other deceptive methods to satisfy those who were already unionized?   If this is true, why would the clerics then, in spite of this, continue this masquerade ?

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #242 on: February 23, 2014, 06:13:25 PM »
They made Eastern Rites to lure people into communion with Rome.
I thought it was Orthodox bishops who decided that they wanted to join the western Church and it was the Orthodox bishops who took their Eastern liturgy and tradition with them. I did not know that it was Rome who made the Eastern rites. Can you please supply a source which shows that Rome made the Eastern rites in order to lure people into communion with Rome and that it was not the Orthodox bishops from present day Ukraine, Poland, Belarus and surrounding areas who decided to unite with the western Church?

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #243 on: February 23, 2014, 06:17:45 PM »
If I am reading this correctly, I get the impression that the Roman church disguised itself as an Eastern church in garb and other deceptive methods to satisfy those who were already unionized?   If this is true, why would the clerics then, in spite of this, continue this masquerade ?
I thought it was the Orthodox bishops who in 1596 came in their Eastern garments and asked to be joined to the Roman Church? I didn't know it was the Roman Church disguising itself in Eastern garb.

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #244 on: February 23, 2014, 06:19:33 PM »
They made Eastern Rites to lure people into communion with Rome.
I thought it was Orthodox bishops who decided that they wanted to join the western Church and it was the Orthodox bishops who took their Eastern liturgy and tradition with them. I did not know that it was Rome who made the Eastern rites. Can you please supply a source which shows that Rome made the Eastern rites in order to lure people into communion with Rome and that it was not the Orthodox bishops from present day Ukraine, Poland, Belarus and surrounding areas who decided to unite with the western Church?

Originally, yes. At the present time, no.

It wasn't the Orthodox bishops from Ukraine, Poland et al. to which I was referring. It was the Alexandrian, Antiochian, Armenian, and Chaldean rites, i.e., Oriental Rites in the Middle East; which accept for the Maronites have all been the target of Rome's imitation of Eastern Rites to coerce them into communion.

The Byzantine Rite Churches, you are 100% correct that they joined by their own will, without Roman pressure.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2014, 06:21:41 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #245 on: February 23, 2014, 07:22:26 PM »
Study some more.  Every Eastern Catholic Church, save the Syro-Malabars and Ethiopians, began at the iniative of one or more bishops of the particular Orthodox Church involved.
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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #246 on: February 24, 2014, 11:14:15 PM »
Originally, yes. At the present time, no.

It wasn't the Orthodox bishops from Ukraine, Poland et al. to which I was referring. It was the Alexandrian, Antiochian, Armenian, and Chaldean rites, i.e., Oriental Rites in the Middle East; which accept for the Maronites have all been the target of Rome's imitation of Eastern Rites to coerce them into communion.

The Byzantine Rite Churches, you are 100% correct that they joined by their own will, without Roman pressure.

xOrthodox4Christx, are you talking about a personal opinion or an accepted fact?
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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #247 on: March 01, 2014, 01:01:10 AM »
From about 1200 to the present time (mostly after 1440 AD) whenever an eastern orthodox church suddenly found itself either conquered by an empire of latin catholics or with latin catholics bearing gifts, military protection and trade agreements to its borders (IE. Melkites) all of a sudden a new eastern catholic church would emerge.

The Eastern Orthodox Churches had to be tempted by political motives to become in communion with Rome, that is the fact of the matter. No Eastern Catholic Church voluntarily came into being without ulterior motives from someone.
There was always some kind of problem that instigated the creation of the Eastern Catholic Churches in communion with Rome.
The maronites like to think that they are the sole exception but even the maronites had been in irregular communion until the crusaders came. Outside of the "Exarchic Greek Abbey of St. Mary of Grottaferrata", there was truly no Eastern Catholic Church that remained continuously in visible communion with Rome after 1054.

Where the Eastern Orthodox Churches have been in a healthier state without undue pressure from the west, without being conquered, they have never been interested in voluntarily entering into communion with Rome, without Rome making the concession itself and in their own words "being orthodox".

« Last Edit: March 01, 2014, 01:08:18 AM by Christopher McAvoy »
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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #248 on: March 12, 2014, 01:45:48 PM »
Quote
The Eastern Orthodox Churches had to be tempted by political motives to become in communion with Rome, that is the fact of the matter. No Eastern Catholic Church voluntarily came into being without ulterior motives from someone.
This is what a monk that frequents our parish said. He himself a former "Eastern Catholic".

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #249 on: March 12, 2014, 02:08:28 PM »
Serious as the Pope on Pascha, I want to know what you're thinking.  I'm not baiting, I am being serious.

When Eastern Catholics do the say that is ok to reject:
1) Purgatory
2) The Immaculate Conception
3) The Ecumenical Councils between the seventh and Vatican II
4) Original Sin
5) Papal Infallibility
6) The Universal Jurisdiction of the Pope
7) The procession of the Holy Spirit from the Father and the Son
etc.
When they reject these and then state that its ok with the Church to do so, they are misrepresenting Catholicism to the world.

I may be mistaken but didn't Rome allow the Eastern Catholics to maintain their beliefs as a means to unity?  Or, are the Eastern Catholics merely a quaint rite of the Roman Catholic Church?

In theory, Rome required them to accept papal supremacy and all other Roman Catholic doctrines, but allowed them to keep their liturgical traditions and married priests. However, some Eastern Catholics adopted more Roman Catholic doctrine than others. Some Byzantine Rite Eastern Catholics are closer to Orthodoxy than other Byzantine Rite Eastern  Catholics who are very Latinized. In America, Rome did not allow married priests among the Eastern Catholics because it upset the Latin Rite majority.

Fr. John W. Morris

So, it cost the Easterners their ancient Tradition and Dogma beliefs to enter into union with Rome?

If you read the text of the Union of Brest, they basically agreed to disagree on points of contention, ie, the Greek Catholics didn't have to accept some of the theology but they couldn't challenge it either.  

Within 100 years a lot of that got thrown out the window in practice.  

When the Byzantine Catholics sent a delegation to Rome after the Union of Brest, they were told that they had to accept all Roman Catholic doctrines. Rome sent Jesuits to teach Roman Catholic doctrine to the Byzantine Catholics in Poland. In 1895 the Ecumencal Patriarch sent an encyclical in response to a letter from Pope Leo XIII calling for reunion. It contains a passage that is relevant to this discussion:
"Since, however, from a certain period the Papal Church, having abandoned the method of persuasion and discussion, began, to our general astonishment and perplexity, to lay traps for the conscience of the more simple orthodox Christians by means of deceitful workers transformed into apostles of Christ, [3] sending into the East clerics with the dress and headcovering of orthodox priests, inventing also divers and other artful means to obtain her proselytizing objects; for this reason, as in sacred duty bound, we issue this patriarchal and synodical encyclical, for a safeguard of the orthodox faith and piety, knowing 'that the observance of the true canons is a duty for every good man, and much more for those who have been thought worthy by Providence to direct the affairs of others."

Fr. John W. Morris

If I am reading this correctly, I get the impression that the Roman church disguised itself as an Eastern church in garb and other deceptive methods to satisfy those who were already unionized?   If this is true, why would the clerics then, in spite of this, continue this masquerade ?

In the Ruthenian church the Union of Brest got off to a very rocky start.  The Orthodox Brotherhoods of educated Urban regions countered it from the start.   Within 40 years the easternmost dioceses that entered the union had flipped back to Orthodoxy, with some stragglers, a leading bishop in favor of the union had been assassinated and the Polish state was forced to recognize Orthodoxy in a limited capacity.  

Further west, where Polish influence was stronger, dioceses had competing Orthodox and Greek Catholic bishops who overlapped with Latin rite bishops.   Ruthenian Magnates who wanted to get somewhere converted to Greek or even Latin Catholicism.  If an Orthodox Church burned or fell into disrepair in these regions it was often replaced with a Latin church and the inhabitants Polonized.   By the early 1700s the westernmost Orthodox dioceses saw the writing on the wall and accepted the Union with Rome.  

In the uneducated villages, however, almost nothing changed until the mid 1700s.   The priests, uneducated, continued to use Orthodox service books and had to be reminded to commemorate the pope loudly.  Those villagers who asked about this were often told that the pope had become Orthodox.   And the Latinizations really didn't begin to accrete until after the Synod of Zamosc in 1720 which promulgated new service books.  

During those early years many villages close to the borders would accept a Greek Catholic priest to replace an Orthodox one, and vice versa, ignorant of any differences.  
« Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 02:09:15 PM by Yurysprudentsiya »

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #250 on: March 12, 2014, 02:17:55 PM »
Originally, yes. At the present time, no.

It wasn't the Orthodox bishops from Ukraine, Poland et al. to which I was referring. It was the Alexandrian, Antiochian, Armenian, and Chaldean rites, i.e., Oriental Rites in the Middle East; which accept for the Maronites have all been the target of Rome's imitation of Eastern Rites to coerce them into communion.

The Byzantine Rite Churches, you are 100% correct that they joined by their own will, without Roman pressure.

xOrthodox4Christx, are you talking about a personal opinion or an accepted fact?

Given that until very recently that wasn't the case, I would give it as fact. Though, it's always a matter of interpretation.
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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #251 on: April 23, 2014, 11:46:23 PM »
They made Eastern Rites to lure people into communion with Rome.
I thought it was Orthodox bishops who decided that they wanted to join the western Church and it was the Orthodox bishops who took their Eastern liturgy and tradition with them. I did not know that it was Rome who made the Eastern rites. Can you please supply a source which shows that Rome made the Eastern rites in order to lure people into communion with Rome and that it was not the Orthodox bishops from present day Ukraine, Poland, Belarus and surrounding areas who decided to unite with the western Church?

Originally, yes. At the present time, no.

It wasn't the Orthodox bishops from Ukraine, Poland et al. to which I was referring. It was the Alexandrian, Antiochian, Armenian, and Chaldean rites, i.e., Oriental Rites in the Middle East; which accept for the Maronites have all been the target of Rome's imitation of Eastern Rites to coerce them into communion.

The Byzantine Rite Churches, you are 100% correct that they joined by their own will, without Roman pressure.

If you mean the Greek Catholics of Eastern Europe, you are wrong. They were formed because of pressure from Catholic monarchs who forced their subjects to submit to Rome, by denying Orthodox civil rights. After the Union of Brest in  1596, King Sigismund III of Poland outlawed the Orthodox Church and forced the Orthodox to convert to Eastern Catholicism in territories under his rule which at that time included Ukraine forming the Ukranian Catholic Church. This also  happened to the Orthodox living under Habsburg rule in Hungary at the Union of Uzhhored in 1646 forming the Ruthenian Catholic Church. The same thing happened to the Romanian Orthodox living under Hungarian rule in Transulvania in 1700 forming the Romanian Catholic Church.
When they came to America many Eastern Catholics returned to Orthodoxy in what is now the OCA under St. Alexi Toth in 1892, and the Carpatho Russian Archdiocese under Orestes Chornock in 1938 under the Ecumenical Patriarchate.
In other places like the Patriarchate of Antioch, the Catholics educated youth from Orthodox places converted them to Catholicism and sent them back to pose as Orthodox until they gained enough influence to bring as many Orthodox as they could into Catholicism forming the Melkite Church in 1724. Rome even established the The Collegium Russicum in 1929 to do the same thing in Russia, infiltrate the Russian Orthodox Church with supporters of union with Rome and do mission work for Eastern Catholicism in Russia. Fortunately for Orthodoxy, this effort was less than successful for there are only about a dozen Russian Catholic Churches in Russia and a few abroad.
That is why the Eastern Orthodox are so offended by the formation of the Eastern Catholics. Overcoming this source of division is one of the major obstacles to developing closer relations between Eastern Orthodox and Rome.

Fr. John W. Morris
« Last Edit: April 24, 2014, 12:16:16 AM by frjohnmorris »

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #252 on: April 24, 2014, 08:13:14 AM »
Study some more.  Every Eastern Catholic Church, save the Syro-Malabars and Ethiopians, began at the iniative of one or more bishops of the particular Orthodox Church involved.
usually with the prodding of the secular overlords.
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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #253 on: April 24, 2014, 11:13:18 AM »
Study some more.  Every Eastern Catholic Church, save the Syro-Malabars and Ethiopians, began at the iniative of one or more bishops of the particular Orthodox Church involved.
usually with the prodding of the secular overlords.

Possibly. I'm not sure it really matters ... Proselytizing is proselytizing, isn't it, regardless whether a secular or religious leader made the first move?
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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #254 on: April 24, 2014, 12:32:53 PM »
What's wrong with the Byzantine Catholic Liturgy? Not anything, just your preferences and personal opinions.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2014, 12:33:55 PM by WPM »

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #255 on: December 04, 2014, 07:06:10 PM »
I've changed my mind on this.
The split is only political & is partly fueled by an inferiority complex on the part of easterners that sometimes team up with the romophobia of protestantism to attack the papacy. Had politics not developed as it did (fall of Byzantium, occupation by islam, cold war etc) i believe there would've been unity today built on councils after Florence.

Theres just too much evidence from the pre-schism fathers of the east to suggest the procession of the Holy Ghost from the father through the Son is a heretical viewpoint. Suggesting that unleavened bread & other cultural variations is heretical is likewise an expression cultural totalitarianism, which latin catholics themselves are guilty of. The immaculate conception was also a doctrine known among eastern fathers as was purgatory. The dispute about purgatory is about the nature of the purgation (is it a fire or something else?) rather than contradiction & the vatican standpoint is that these differences about the nature of purgatory etc must not be a cause of breaking of communion but a source of strength for the whole theological work of the church.

It's also clear that the bishop of Rome as the successor of St Peter had primacy & directly intervened in the constantinopolean church to replace patriarchs etc. Papal primacy is not an innovation but was the consensus among churchfathers & latin catholics cant help that western europe became more powerful than the east of that evil men managed to secure the throne of Peter. The Office was well anchored among the fathers & although it's in Italy, it's the 'church's' common institution to which any of the worlds catholics should have the principal ability to succeed, not just italians or westerners.

The diversity in theology is minor & I dont see how it can be communion breaking without simultaneously narrowing sown the scope of theology to extremely narrowmindedness boundaries for both sides. Likewise I cant reconcile the position that Rome broke away from Constantinople with the words of Christ that the Gates of Hell should not prevail against the church which was built upon the rock that is St Peter.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 07:08:40 PM by Shamati »

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #256 on: December 04, 2014, 07:11:22 PM »
Study some more.  Every Eastern Catholic Church, save the Syro-Malabars and Ethiopians, began at the iniative of one or more bishops of the particular Orthodox Church involved.
usually with the prodding of the secular overlords.
Actually usually inspite of the secular overlords opposition.  This is especially true of those with Ottoman overlords.
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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #257 on: December 04, 2014, 07:39:33 PM »
Suggesting that unleavened bread & other cultural variations is heretical is likewise an expression cultural totalitarianism, which latin catholics themselves are guilty of.

I'd agree with that. But keep in mind that not all EO view the use of unleavened bread as heretical. Certainly, any EO who view the OO as also being Orthodox can't hold such a viewpoint, since some OO (namely the Armenians) use unleavened bread.

The immaculate conception was also a doctrine known among eastern fathers as was purgatory.
But neither was a dogma. Yes, many Eastern fathers believed in these things, but a lot of them did not, and few if any would have supported raising them to the level of infallible dogma.

Regarding the issue of the papacy, keep in mind that while Rome did intervene in the affairs of other churches at times, the street went both ways. An ecumenical council, held in the East, excommunicated a monothelite pope. Also, popes and bishops western and eastern were often handpicked by the emperor in Constantinople. So it wasn't so much an example of the pope having jurisdiction over the east, as it was the Empire ruling over both.
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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #258 on: December 05, 2014, 10:50:04 AM »
Goodness gracious, can we not change the title of the this thread to "When Papist was just plain dumb?"  ;)
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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #259 on: December 05, 2014, 11:02:50 AM »
Goodness gracious, can we not change the title of the this thread to "When Papist was just plain dumb?"  ;)

Good heavens, no!  The delicious irony gives me a good chuckle from time to time.  One of those things that just never gets old.   8)  :D
« Last Edit: December 05, 2014, 11:03:44 AM by Pravoslavbob »
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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #260 on: December 05, 2014, 11:09:19 AM »
Goodness gracious, can we not change the title of the this thread to "When Papist was just plain dumb?"  ;)

Too short. Maybe if you add a subtitle, say "When Papist was just plain dumb: Or How He Learned To Stop Worrying and Love the Balamand Agreement."
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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #261 on: December 05, 2014, 11:40:27 AM »
They made Eastern Rites to lure people into communion with Rome.
I thought it was Orthodox bishops who decided that they wanted to join the western Church and it was the Orthodox bishops who took their Eastern liturgy and tradition with them. I did not know that it was Rome who made the Eastern rites. Can you please supply a source which shows that Rome made the Eastern rites in order to lure people into communion with Rome and that it was not the Orthodox bishops from present day Ukraine, Poland, Belarus and surrounding areas who decided to unite with the western Church?

Originally, yes. At the present time, no.

It wasn't the Orthodox bishops from Ukraine, Poland et al. to which I was referring. It was the Alexandrian, Antiochian, Armenian, and Chaldean rites, i.e., Oriental Rites in the Middle East; which accept for the Maronites have all been the target of Rome's imitation of Eastern Rites to coerce them into communion.

The Byzantine Rite Churches, you are 100% correct that they joined by their own will, without Roman pressure.

If you mean the Greek Catholics of Eastern Europe, you are wrong. They were formed because of pressure from Catholic monarchs who forced their subjects to submit to Rome, by denying Orthodox civil rights. After the Union of Brest in  1596, King Sigismund III of Poland outlawed the Orthodox Church and forced the Orthodox to convert to Eastern Catholicism in territories under his rule which at that time included Ukraine forming the Ukranian Catholic Church. This also  happened to the Orthodox living under Habsburg rule in Hungary at the Union of Uzhhored in 1646 forming the Ruthenian Catholic Church. The same thing happened to the Romanian Orthodox living under Hungarian rule in Transulvania in 1700 forming the Romanian Catholic Church.
When they came to America many Eastern Catholics returned to Orthodoxy in what is now the OCA under St. Alexi Toth in 1892, and the Carpatho Russian Archdiocese under Orestes Chornock in 1938 under the Ecumenical Patriarchate.
In other places like the Patriarchate of Antioch, the Catholics educated youth from Orthodox places converted them to Catholicism and sent them back to pose as Orthodox until they gained enough influence to bring as many Orthodox as they could into Catholicism forming the Melkite Church in 1724. Rome even established the The Collegium Russicum in 1929 to do the same thing in Russia, infiltrate the Russian Orthodox Church with supporters of union with Rome and do mission work for Eastern Catholicism in Russia. Fortunately for Orthodoxy, this effort was less than successful for there are only about a dozen Russian Catholic Churches in Russia and a few abroad.
That is why the Eastern Orthodox are so offended by the formation of the Eastern Catholics. Overcoming this source of division is one of the major obstacles to developing closer relations between Eastern Orthodox and Rome.

Fr. John W. Morris

Interesting, and the situation will continue to divide 'us' from 'them'.  Will it ever be resolved, doubtful.

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #262 on: December 05, 2014, 11:53:02 AM »
Goodness gracious, can we not change the title of the this thread to "When Papist was just plain dumb?"  ;)

Good heavens, no!  The delicious irony gives me a good chuckle from time to time.  One of those things that just never gets old.   8)  :D

One more step....one more step.... ;)

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #263 on: December 05, 2014, 12:46:30 PM »
Goodness gracious, can we not change the title of the this thread to "When Papist was just plain dumb?"  ;)

Too short. Maybe if you add a subtitle, say "When Papist was just plain dumb: Or How He Learned To Stop Worrying and Love the Balamand Agreement."
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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #264 on: December 05, 2014, 12:51:48 PM »
Study some more.  Every Eastern Catholic Church, save the Syro-Malabars and Ethiopians, began at the iniative of one or more bishops of the particular Orthodox Church involved.
usually with the prodding of the secular overlords.
Actually usually inspite of the secular overlords opposition.  This is especially true of those with Ottoman overlords.
The Ottomans were the exception, and they only involved your Melkites. That leaves a couple dozen "sui juris" to explain, including the largest, your UGCC, is the sole product of the Vatican's secular minions (read it's Met. Sheptytskyi's plans for Ukraine in a Austria-Hungary victory in WWI.  Nothing  has changed).
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #265 on: December 05, 2014, 01:32:06 PM »
Study some more.  Every Eastern Catholic Church, save the Syro-Malabars and Ethiopians, began at the iniative of one or more bishops of the particular Orthodox Church involved.
usually with the prodding of the secular overlords.
Actually usually inspite of the secular overlords opposition.  This is especially true of those with Ottoman overlords.
The Ottomans were the exception, and they only involved your Melkites. That leaves a couple dozen "sui juris" to explain, including the largest, your UGCC, is the sole product of the Vatican's secular minions (read it's Met. Sheptytskyi's plans for Ukraine in a Austria-Hungary victory in WWI.  Nothing  has changed).
You are forgetting the Chaldeans, Armenians, Syriacs, and Copts.  Though the first three were split between the Ottomans and Persians.  We will have to disagree about the UGCC.  The Poles plans were to Polonize the Ukrainins and convert them to Latin Catholics.  The union prevented that.
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

Online ialmisry

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #266 on: December 05, 2014, 02:55:14 PM »
Study some more.  Every Eastern Catholic Church, save the Syro-Malabars and Ethiopians, began at the iniative of one or more bishops of the particular Orthodox Church involved.
usually with the prodding of the secular overlords.
Actually usually inspite of the secular overlords opposition.  This is especially true of those with Ottoman overlords.
The Ottomans were the exception, and they only involved your Melkites. That leaves a couple dozen "sui juris" to explain, including the largest, your UGCC, is the sole product of the Vatican's secular minions (read it's Met. Sheptytskyi's plans for Ukraine in a Austria-Hungary victory in WWI.  Nothing  has changed).
You are forgetting the Chaldeans, Armenians, Syriacs, and Copts.  Though the first three were split between the Ottomans and Persians.  We will have to disagree about the UGCC.  The Poles plans were to Polonize the Ukrainins and convert them to Latin Catholics.  The union prevented that.
LOL. Hardly. Met. Sheptytskyi himself was baptized a Latin Pole.

I haven't forgotten anyone. The Armenians in Poland, for instance, led their kin astray in submitting to the Vatican, starting in Lwow-or do you say Lemberg?

We don't have to disagree about the UGCC. You can face the truth.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #267 on: December 05, 2014, 03:08:46 PM »
If there were no Unia, there would be no OCA, no ACROD, a smaller UOC. It's that simple. Deacon Lance is correct and I suspect that when he checks in, Yurysprudentsiya will concur.

I'm not justifying the Unia, but history is cruel. I agree with the historians who assert that the east Slavs (not today's Russians though) would have been assimilated into the Latin Rite. But, who really knows, it's just speculation as we are where we are today and we just have to play the hand we are dealt..as people, as a nation and as a church or churches.


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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #268 on: December 05, 2014, 04:31:31 PM »
If there were no Unia, there would be no OCA, no ACROD, a smaller UOC. It's that simple. Deacon Lance is correct and I suspect that when he checks in, Yurysprudentsiya will concur.

I'm not justifying the Unia, but history is cruel. I agree with the historians who assert that the east Slavs (not today's Russians though) would have been assimilated into the Latin Rite. But, who really knows, it's just speculation as we are where we are today and we just have to play the hand we are dealt..as people, as a nation and as a church or churches.
History is cruel, and cruelest of all to such historians. The records of the debates of the long-lasting 4-year Great Sejm (1788-1792) survive, and they record the panic of the Poles that the "Ruthenians", having failed to ever win over the majority of Sigismund's Orthodox subjects, were continuing to lose ground to the bishopless (by then) Orthodox. Finally the Metropolitan who sold out to the Vatican got his seat in the Senate, promised two centuries before, but only after all the Vatican's Latin bishops in Poland-Lithuania, and none of his co-conspirators got theirs, but the government had to not only allow but sponsor  the formation of an autocephalous Orthodox Church for Poland.  A funding debate for the Vatican's Ruthenians in the Ukraine (to state the view of Warsaw) devolved into a spending bill funding, at the demand of the Polish Latin bishop of Kiev (yes, they never gave up on that dream, even though he was not in Kiev but in  Żytomierz. Ironically, after the partition of Poland, he ended his days as the Vatican's bishop of Mogilev, the seat of the last Orthodox bishop in PL before Russia liberated it, set up as the Metropolitan of the Vatican's flock in the empire by the Empress of All the Russias), the setting up of a network of Latin Polish parishes for the Vatican covering Ukraine.

As for the OCA, I don't know.  It wasn't founded among the Galicians, although they did become  its core a century later. I do not know, however, how many of them passed through Bukowina, where a Ukrainian Orthodox Church of hundreds of thousands arose right under the nose of the Vatican's secular arm. Transylvania next door to Galicia and Slovakia never succumbed to the Unia, as you call it.  Why would the East Slavs? A.C.R.O.D. I can't speculate.

As for the UOC, the majority of the Ukrainians in West Ukraine remain with the Orthodox (canonical or uncanonical), and have since before the Sobor of L'viv. The censuses of interwar Poland showed an increase of the Orthodox share of the population.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Paisius

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #269 on: December 05, 2014, 05:57:50 PM »
Goodness gracious, can we not change the title of the this thread to "When Papist was just plain dumb?"  ;)



Look on the bright side. You've provided many people here with years of amusement.  :D
« Last Edit: December 05, 2014, 05:58:13 PM by Paisius »