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Author Topic: What body of Christ was glorified?  (Read 2884 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: April 06, 2008, 10:37:52 AM »

Dear folks,

As usual, please forgive me if this topic has already been discussed.

Question: what body of Christ has been "glorified" and ascended into Heaven? After He had died on the cross and His dead body had been carried to the tomb, - was that exact body prevented from corruption and resurrected in a new "glorified" state? Or, rather, was it that His old earthly body disappeared and He gained, or was given, a totally new "heavenly"/"glorified" body?

Many thanks in advance! I'd be especially grateful for patristic references on this subject.

G.
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« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2008, 10:48:58 AM »

After the Resurrection, His Body bore the scars of the nails (remember Doubting Thomas?) The Body which was laid in the tomb was raised and Glorified.
Those who are alive on the Day of Ressurection will have their bodies Glorified (1 Corinthians 15:51-52)
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« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2008, 08:29:50 AM »

After the Resurrection, His Body bore the scars of the nails (remember Doubting Thomas?) The Body which was laid in the tomb was raised and Glorified.
Those who are alive on the Day of Ressurection will have their bodies Glorified (1 Corinthians 15:51-52)

I know about scars, but still, it could have been a totally new body, made exactly like His earthly body.

Again, my "favorite" body-haters from "Maidan" say that there are no Scriptural and/or patristic references proving that we take *ANYTHING* from this damned, hopelessly sinful world to the "next" world. Our stinking rottening sinful body perishes, disappears. Resurrection means that God makes and gives us a totally new body, which has some identifying marks of our "selves," but it will not be the body made of earthly atoms, molecules, matter as we know it.
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« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2008, 08:43:13 AM »

I know about scars, but still, it could have been a totally new body, made exactly like His earthly body.

Again, my "favorite" body-haters from "Maidan" say that there are no Scriptural and/or patristic references proving that we take *ANYTHING* from this damned, hopelessly sinful world to the "next" world. Our stinking rottening sinful body perishes, disappears. Resurrection means that God makes and gives us a totally new body, which has some identifying marks of our "selves," but it will not be the body made of earthly atoms, molecules, matter as we know it.

If it was a completely new body, than his old body would have still remained in the tomb. His old body was obviously not there in the tomb after the resurrection.  Lips Sealed
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« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2008, 08:47:11 AM »

If it was a completely new body, than his old body would have still remained in the tomb. His old body was obviously not there in the tomb after the resurrection.  Lips Sealed

But one can say to this - yes, His old body was destroyed by God, it was pulverized or something, made disappear.
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« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2008, 09:00:30 AM »

But one can say to this - yes, His old body was destroyed by God, it was pulverized or something, made disappear.
One could say that, but they would be wrong because his body was glorified before he died at the transfiguration.

Quote
Matthew 17
The Transfiguration
 1After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

 4Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah."

 5While he was still speaking, a bright cloud enveloped them, and a voice from the cloud said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!"

 6When the disciples heard this, they fell facedown to the ground, terrified. 7But Jesus came and touched them. "Get up," he said. "Don't be afraid." 8When they looked up, they saw no one except Jesus.

 9As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, "Don't tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead."
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« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2008, 09:49:01 AM »

One could say that, but they would be wrong because his body was glorified before he died at the transfiguration.

But then one could also say that what happened BEFORE He died (i.e., His Transfiguration) has nothing to do with what happened to Him AFTER He died.
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« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2008, 10:00:21 AM »

But then one could also say that what happened BEFORE He died (i.e., His Transfiguration) has nothing to do with what happened to Him AFTER He died.

Right. So, we don't actually know, was Christ after His resurrection in the same (glorified, but the same) body that had lain in the tomb, or in some kind of purely spiritual immaterial body?
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« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2008, 10:12:42 AM »

Right. So, we don't actually know, was Christ after His resurrection in the same (glorified, but the same) body that had lain in the tomb, or in some kind of purely spiritual immaterial body?

Actually, we do know, as Ozgeorge correctly pointed out: it was his 'same' body, that had nail holes driven into it, as well as one that ate grilled fish:

Quote
Luke 24:36-43  They were still talking about all this when he himself stood among them and said to them, 'Peace be with you!'  In a state of alarm and fright, they thought they were seeing a ghost. But he said, 'Why are you so agitated, and why are these doubts stirring in your hearts?  See by my hands and my feet that it is I myself. Touch me and see for yourselves; a ghost has no flesh and bones as you can see I have.'  And as he said this he showed them his hands and his feet.  Their joy was so great that they still could not believe it, as they were dumbfounded; so he said to them, 'Have you anything here to eat?' And they offered him a piece of grilled fish,  which he took and ate before their eyes.

Jesus stated that He could be recognized by His hands and feet, referencing His wounds; He also comments that He 'is not a ghost', so He cannot be some sort of purely spiritual immaterial body.
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« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2008, 10:24:00 AM »

Actually, we do know, as Ozgeorge correctly pointed out: it was his 'same' body, that had nail holes driven into it, as well as one that ate grilled fish:

Jesus stated that He could be recognized by His hands and feet, referencing His wounds; He also comments that He 'is not a ghost', so He cannot be some sort of purely spiritual immaterial body.

Father, bless! Thank you for this comment.

So, if it was the same (albeit glorified) body, then does it mean that right now, He has intestines and all? With all that, He ascended, and all that He somehow keeps?
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« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2008, 10:47:27 AM »



So, if it was the same (albeit glorified) body, then does it mean that right now, He has intestines and all? With all that, He ascended, and all that He somehow keeps?
Yes. This is how he saved creation from death. he took on human nature.
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« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2008, 11:16:03 AM »

Yes. This is how he saved creation from death. he took on human nature.

Thanks, Demetrios. That's what I believe, too, but can this be backed by some texts from Fathers? I am asking because directly from the Bible, it can be interpreted in either way (same body but made immortal, or brand new body resembling Jesus with holes from nails etc.).
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« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2008, 11:37:57 AM »

Thanks, Demetrios. That's what I believe, too, but can this be backed by some texts from Fathers? I am asking because directly from the Bible, it can be interpreted in either way (same body but made immortal, or brand new body resembling Jesus with holes from nails etc.).

Yes. All of the fathers say this. Remember that the Greek fathers had to battle with paganism at the time. If you read St. Maximos it will become clear.
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« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2008, 11:56:24 AM »

Yes. All of the fathers say this. Remember that the Greek fathers had to battle with paganism at the time. If you read St. Maximos it will become clear.

What exactly in St. Maximos, what work? Thanks!
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« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2008, 02:31:55 PM »

What exactly in St. Maximos, what work? Thanks!
Try this. http://www.wowio.com/users/product.asp?BookId=2777    Book 4
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« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2008, 03:04:19 PM »


Thank you, Demetrios. Looks like you and others are just referring me to St. Maximos, but you guys don't have direct quotes from him or from any other patristic source that would unequivocally confirm that Christ's guts, sweat glands, mucus, etc. - all the "bodily" stuff - were preserved and "glorified" and ascended and remain in heavens right now as we communicate... Well, thanks anyway.
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« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2008, 03:27:21 PM »

Found something in St. John of Damascus:

"After Christ was risen from the dead He laid aside all His passions, I mean His corruption or hunger or thirst or sleep or weariness or such like. For, although He did taste food after the resurrection(1), yet He did not do so because it was a law of His nature (for He felt no hunger), but in the way of economy, in order that He might convince us of the reality of the resurrection, and that it was one and the same flesh which suffered and rose again(2). But He laid aside none of the divisions of His nature, neither body nor spirit, but possesses both the body and the soul intelligent and reasonable, volitional and energetic, and in this wise He sits at the right hand of the Father, using His will both as God and as man in behalf of our salvation, energising in His divine capacity to provide for and maintain and govern all things, and remembering in His human capacity the time He spent on earth, while all the time He both sees and knows that He is adored by all rational creation."

http://www.orthodox.net/fathers/exactiv.html#BOOK_IV_CHAPTER_I

So, even right now, as we speak, He has guts, bladder, nails and what not?
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« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2008, 03:33:19 PM »

^^Yes, through His grace He is now what we will be, as well as what we were created to be.

Is there any reason this is seemingly difficult for you? Not to pry, but does this truth seem to not fit well, or are you going to base another question off of it?  Wink
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« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2008, 03:38:39 PM »

^^Yes, through His grace He is now what we will be, as well as what we were created to be.

Is there any reason this is seemingly difficult for you? Not to pry, but does this truth seem to not fit well, or are you going to base another question off of it?  Wink

The whole point is, at this "Maidan" forum I am being continuosly blasted as a heretic and servant of Antichrist, because I say that Christ has two natures, that He is co-substantial with every single one of us by His human nature, that he has a real material body, etc. My opponent is a person who claims that Christianity is all about things heavenly and IMMATERIAL, that a human being was created "virtual" or "immaterial," and so was the Earth; BECOMING material is a punishment and curse, materiality is disgusting, etc. etc. etc. In his vision, Christ was raised from the tomb being completely different from what we are now, not being made of material atoms or subatomic particles, etc.
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« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2008, 03:48:24 PM »

The whole point is, at this "Maidan" forum

How did I know this was the case?  Wink


Quote
I am being continuosly blasted as a heretic and servant of Antichrist, because I say that Christ has two natures, that He is co-substantial with every single one of us by His human nature, that he has a real material body, etc. My opponent is a person who claims that Christianity is all about things heavenly and IMMATERIAL, that a human being was created "virtual" or "immaterial," and so was the Earth; BECOMING material is a punishment and curse, materiality is disgusting, etc. etc. etc. In his vision, Christ was raised from the tomb being completely different from what we are now, not being made of material atoms or subatomic particles, etc.

Have you looked at Irenaus and other early church opponents of Gnosticism? Probably you have, but the same arguments used at that time should work very well.

How does your neo-Gnostic opponent view Christ eating, etc? If Christ's body is made new and is completely different from the bodies we have now, then truly it does not matter that Christ was 'enfleshed'. Since that which was not assumed also cannot undergo theosis, then there is no reason for the Annunciation and Nativity, which also means that we can never be all that God created us to be.
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« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2008, 04:07:13 PM »

How does your neo-Gnostic opponent view Christ eating, etc? If Christ's body is made new and is completely different from the bodies we have now, then truly it does not matter that Christ was 'enfleshed'. Since that which was not assumed also cannot undergo theosis, then there is no reason for the Annunciation and Nativity, which also means that we can never be all that God created us to be.

As far as I understand him, he believes that eating fish in front of Christ's disciples after His resurrection was part of what He called "I haven't yet ascended to my Father," as He told Mary in His "nolli me tangere" speech. In other words, His transformation from an embodied person to a completely immaterial person was still occuring, He was "in the making" of Himself as fit to ascend into the timeless Eternity without matter, without dimensions, etc.

As for the reason Christ was "enfleshed," my opponent constantly quotes St. Paul's words from Romans 8:3 that Christ came "in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh in order to condemn sin in the flesh." He completely denies the idea that Christ became fully human and that He remains fully human now. In my opponent's vision, Christ became "man-like" for a very limited time, and now, after His ascension, He is fully God and not a human or even human-like any more.

As for what God created us to be, again, my opponent's understanding of the first chapters of Genesis is that humans were created to be ethereal, not possessing any weight and even any "materiality" (Ukrainian "rechovynnist'," literally "substance-ness"). The Earth was made as a part of a completely different world, without mass, weight, dimensions and time. After the Fall, the Earth was "cursed" by God, and this "curse" meant a transformation into our planet's present state, when it has mass and exists in linear time. Humans, having been "transferred" onto this cursed earth, became sexual beings, and gradually, in generations, acquired this disgusting, evil materiality, this stinking rottening evil FLESH, this "heavy body."

My opponent sometimes quotes St. Gregory of Nyssa to back all these constructions...

Interestingly, there is a young Ukrainian Eastern Rite Catholic priest at "Maidan" who always says that my opponent's constructions are gnostic and hardly even Christian. But my opponent only gets angrier and blasts this priest (of his own denomination!) as a servant of anti-Christ, just like yours truly...

I would gladly abandon these futile online clashes, but there are many people who visit "Maidan" and have no idea about fundamentals of Christian faith. I am there mostly for their sake. But my opponent has perhaps 1,000 times more energy and determination than I do.
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« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2008, 04:12:20 PM »

I would gladly abandon these futile online clashes, but there are many people who visit "Maidan" and have no idea about fundamentals of Christian faith. I am there mostly for their sake. But my opponent has perhaps 1,000 times more energy and determination than I do.

Keep fighting the good fight George!!!!

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« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2008, 04:25:06 PM »


As for the reason Christ was "enfleshed," my opponent constantly quotes St. Paul's words from Romans 8:3 that Christ came "in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh in order to condemn sin in the flesh." He completely denies the idea that Christ became fully human and that He remains fully human now. In my opponent's vision, Christ became "man-like" for a very limited time, and now, after His ascension, He is fully God and not a human or even human-like any more.

So, he's probably concentrating on the word ομοιωματι, and through this he is changing 2000 years of theology.

What is his translation of Phil 2:7? This word is quite rare in this context, and in fact the only justifiable means of understanding what the word means is by examining what past theologians and writers have interpreted this word to indicate. Anyway, the same author (Paul) uses this word in Phil 2:7, and I would be interested in hearing what the neo-Gnostic is thinking.

Quote
But my opponent has perhaps 1,000 times more energy and determination than I do.


Heretics often do...just look at how often certain posters are here!  Wink
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« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2008, 01:38:16 PM »

Your opponent appears to be an Origenist. I'd recommend St. Methodius of Olympus for a refutation of this body hating nonsense.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf06.xi.v.i.html
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« Reply #24 on: April 08, 2008, 01:52:23 PM »

I would gladly abandon these futile online clashes, but there are many people who visit "Maidan" and have no idea about fundamentals of Christian faith. I am there mostly for their sake. But my opponent has perhaps 1,000 times more energy and determination than I do. 

I'm glad you're turning to your friends and acquaintances to help with the battle.  As with any struggle (intellectual, spiritual, emotional, etc.), turning to our true Christian brethren (not those of nominal faith) can be of great benefit and support.
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« Reply #25 on: April 08, 2008, 01:52:58 PM »

Your opponent appears to be an Origenist. I'd recommend St. Methodius of Olympus for a refutation of this body hating nonsense.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf06.xi.v.i.html

Thank you so much, Symeon. Unfortunately, it's in English and he does not know enough English. When I translate something from English, he immediately says that it's a trick, because I cannot, in his opinion, understand any theology and therefore cannot be a translator of foreign theological texts.
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« Reply #26 on: April 08, 2008, 02:16:17 PM »

Thank you so much, Symeon. Unfortunately, it's in English and he does not know enough English. When I translate something from English, he immediately says that it's a trick, because I cannot, in his opinion, understand any theology and therefore cannot be a translator of foreign theological texts.

Remember---you're not just translating the text to win the argument with this heretic; you're translating the text to explain the Christian faith to those who might not know anything better about the faith.

Everything you do will educate others about the faith, including how you may argue with this person but still love him.

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« Reply #27 on: April 08, 2008, 02:26:47 PM »

I remember reading one of the Cappadocians (St Basil?) who used the metaphor of a caterpillar turning into a butterfly as a way of explaning the Resurrection.  The caterpillar's body is not pulverized or made into nothing but is transformed into something new.  The Danaus plexippus is the same creature it is as a butterfly as it was as a caterpillar.  All the material, so to speak, it was as a caterpillar is transformed, through the miracle of nature as ordained by God, into something new entirely, much like our bodies will be transformed, through the miracle of Resurrection as ordained by God.

I'll check my bookshelf at home this evening and see if I can't find the citation.  I know I marked it because my wife has a hard time understanding the General Resurrection (too many zombie movies) and this example has helped her great deal.

I would also add that it's up to your questioners to verify any quotations once you've given them a proper citation.  If they will not accept your translation, they should seek out the text in a language they understand.  I would think that if a patristic text has made it into English, it would have made it into Ukrainian (or Russian), as us Anglophones are way behind in translating these texts Smiley

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« Reply #28 on: April 08, 2008, 06:00:59 PM »

Thank you both so much, Fr. Chris and Schultz.
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« Reply #29 on: April 08, 2008, 09:45:20 PM »

Thank you both so much, Fr. Chris and Schultz.

You're quite welcome, George.

It was indeed St. Basil the Great who used the example of the metamorphosis of a caterpillar as a metaphor for our Resurrection.  He wrote about it in Homily VIII, section 8 of the Hexaemeron.  Of course, this link is in English, but you can cite it.

Reading it over, though, it may not be a good one to use in your discourse with your detractors.  St. Basil stresses the "change" that St. Paul announces for us at the Resurrection, and they would assuredly use that as proof that our bodies go through so much change that our old ones are totally destroyed.  I wonder if the Greek used for "change" implies such a destruction or not.
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"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
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