Author Topic: Pregnant ‘man’ tells Oprah: ‘It’s a miracle’  (Read 12602 times)

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Offline _Seraphim_

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Pregnant ‘man’ tells Oprah: ‘It’s a miracle’
« on: April 04, 2008, 01:37:17 AM »
“It’s not a male or female desire to have a child. It’s a human desire,” a thinly bearded Thomas Beatie said.
“I have a very stable male identity,” he added, saying that pregnancy neither defines him nor makes him feel feminine.


here's the whole article:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23942218/wid/11915773?GT1=31037


Lord, how long?  I cannot imagine the days of Noah being any worse.

All I can say is
+Lord have mercy
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Offline GiC

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Re: Pregnant ‘man’ tells Oprah: ‘It’s a miracle’
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2008, 01:57:19 AM »
Lord, how long?  I cannot imagine the days of Noah being any worse.

Don't worry and have faith. It won't be long before the horror in which we find ourselves, where children are formed by the random combination of two dna sequences, is behind us. I know that we, along with all of humanity, both pray for the day when no child will be subject to the evils of random chance and all will be optimized and designed, free of genetic disease, athletic and beautiful, and with levels of intelligence unseen in our current age.
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Offline ozgeorge

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Offline Riddikulus

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Re: Pregnant ‘man’ tells Oprah: ‘It’s a miracle’
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2008, 02:07:42 AM »
^^ LOL
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Offline GabrieltheCelt

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Re: Pregnant ‘man’ tells Oprah: ‘It’s a miracle’
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2008, 03:08:41 AM »
Hmm.  Since she was born a woman, she'll die a woman.  Maybe a strange and bizarre woman, but a woman none-the-less.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Pregnant ‘man’ tells Oprah: ‘It’s a miracle’
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2008, 03:45:04 AM »
Hmm.  Since she was born a woman, she'll die a woman.  Maybe a strange and bizarre woman, but a woman none-the-less.

A surgically altered woman. Not many men I know have wombs.  Actually, none that I know.  Clothes may make the man, but scapul and injection don't.

And Greeki seems to be advocating the abolition of the exchange of DNA material, otherwise know as sex.
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Offline Myrrh23

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Re: Pregnant ‘man’ tells Oprah: ‘It’s a miracle’
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2008, 03:52:18 AM »
Quote
Don't worry and have faith. It won't be long before the horror in which we find ourselves, where children are formed by the random combination of two dna sequences, is behind us. I know that we, along with all of humanity, both pray for the day when no child will be subject to the evils of random chance and all will be optimized and designed, free of genetic disease, athletic and beautiful, and with levels of intelligence unseen in our current age.

"Truly, Ye shall be as Gods...." ::)

Quote
And Greeki seems to be advocating the abolition of the exchange of DNA material, otherwise know as sex.

OOH! Do we get to pick what color test tube our future "Village of the Damned" kiddies are born in?? ;D
« Last Edit: April 04, 2008, 03:54:55 AM by Myrrh23 »
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Offline lubeltri

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Re: Pregnant ‘man’ tells Oprah: ‘It’s a miracle’
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2008, 09:16:14 AM »
Sigh...I am reminded of the recent story of the convicted murderer who is suing the state of Massachusetts to pay for "her" sex change (that's how many of the news stories are referring to him).


Offline GiC

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Re: Pregnant ‘man’ tells Oprah: ‘It’s a miracle’
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2008, 10:14:59 AM »
And Greeki seems to be advocating the abolition of the exchange of DNA material, otherwise know as sex.

Nah, just advocating the abolation of the exchange of DNA for reproduction...no reason to get rid of recreational sex.
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Pregnant ‘man’ tells Oprah: ‘It’s a miracle’
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2008, 10:16:52 AM »
I'd like to see an episode in House about this.  I bet it would be hilarious and entertaining (as it usually is).
« Last Edit: April 04, 2008, 10:17:13 AM by minasoliman »
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Offline GabrieltheCelt

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Re: Pregnant ‘man’ tells Oprah: ‘It’s a miracle’
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2008, 12:08:01 PM »
Don't worry and have faith. It won't be long before the horror in which we find ourselves, where children are formed by the random combination of two dna sequences, is behind us. I know that we, along with all of humanity, both pray for the day when no child will be subject to the evils of random chance and all will be optimized and designed, free of genetic disease, athletic and beautiful, and with levels of intelligence unseen in our current age.
It'll never happen Dr. Moreau.  :D  Trying to abolish genetic disease is a noble and compassionate idea, but unfortunately playing God has never/will never  work.  You might look into prayer though.  ;)
« Last Edit: April 04, 2008, 12:13:43 PM by GabrieltheCelt »
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Offline GiC

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Re: Pregnant ‘man’ tells Oprah: ‘It’s a miracle’
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2008, 05:34:31 PM »
It'll never happen Dr. Moreau.  :D  Trying to abolish genetic disease is a noble and compassionate idea, but unfortunately playing God has never/will never  work.

We have confronted the creations of god and have learned that we can do it better. We have held back the sea, rerouted rivers, created and drained lakes, defied gravity, and inhabited hostile space. We have cured diseases, we have built machines to calculate what all the human race could not have done working towards a single goal. In the works of god we see randomness and chaos, in the works of man we see reason and order.

We do not wish to play god, we wish to do what god could not have even dreamed.

Quote
You might look into prayer though.  ;)

Talk about something that has never/will never work.
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Offline GreekChef

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Re: Pregnant ‘man’ tells Oprah: ‘It’s a miracle’
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2008, 06:04:18 PM »
I caught a few minutes of the show (it was all that I could stand).  Honestly, I was perplexed by the whole thing.  What's so amazing about a transgendered woman who perceives herself as a man and is pregnant?  What would have been "amazing" would have been if "he" actually WAS a man, born a man, with male organs, and THEN was pregnant.  I don't consider a pregnant transgendered woman newsworthy, personally.

Two interesting observations, though...

The part that I saw was when "he" and "his" wife were talking about the fact that even the transgender community rejected the idea of "him" being pregnant... hmmm....

The other observation... just curious to see the viewers' responses, I got onto Oprah's website and read a few of the posts on the message board.  An overwhelming majority of people were absolutely appalled by the show.  There was even a post from an audience member, lamenting the fact that she and her family had been waiting for years to get to go to an Oprah taping, and when they got there they were subject to this "Jerry Springer" type show.  Even a transgender man (born a woman...) posted why it was inappropriate and appalling.  Nobody but Oprah and her producers seemed to think that this was newsworthy and a good idea.

Lord have mercy on us all.
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Offline lubeltri

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Re: Pregnant ‘man’ tells Oprah: ‘It’s a miracle’
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2008, 06:17:45 PM »
May the de-deification of Oprah proceed apace!

Offline GiC

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Re: Pregnant ‘man’ tells Oprah: ‘It’s a miracle’
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2008, 06:46:36 PM »
The other observation... just curious to see the viewers' responses, I got onto Oprah's website and read a few of the posts on the message board.  An overwhelming majority of people were absolutely appalled by the show.  There was even a post from an audience member, lamenting the fact that she and her family had been waiting for years to get to go to an Oprah taping, and when they got there they were subject to this "Jerry Springer" type show.  Even a transgender man (born a woman...) posted why it was inappropriate and appalling.  Nobody but Oprah and her producers seemed to think that this was newsworthy and a good idea.

Lord have mercy on us all.

Well, the goal is to get attention and that gets ratings...considering we're discussing it here, looks like it worked.
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Offline _Seraphim_

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Re: Pregnant ‘man’ tells Oprah: ‘It’s a miracle’
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2008, 06:51:58 PM »
What's so amazing about a transgendered woman who perceives herself as a man and is pregnant?  What would have been "amazing" would have been if "he" actually WAS a man, born a man, with male organs, and THEN was pregnant.  I don't consider a pregnant transgendered woman newsworthy, personally.

I understand this and I agree.  However, what really got me troubled was thinking about the CHILD.  These women ::) are old enough to make their own decisions, but this child is innocent.  Everyone, please pray for all children today who are being born into homes/families that promote distorted sexuality.... that God's grace and wisdom will shine through the distortion, bringing truth and healing into their young hearts.

Again and again in peace let us pray to the Lord
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Offline _Seraphim_

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Re: Pregnant ‘man’ tells Oprah: ‘It’s a miracle’
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2008, 06:57:52 PM »
Well, the goal is to get attention and that gets ratings...considering we're discussing it here, looks like it worked.

Getting attention and boosting ratings may be the goal of the secular media,
but prayer for "the sick, the suffering, the captives and their salvation" should be the goal of every Orthodox Christian.

+Lord have mercy
« Last Edit: April 04, 2008, 06:58:47 PM by _Seraphim_ »
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Offline Orual

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Re: Pregnant ‘man’ tells Oprah: ‘It’s a miracle’
« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2008, 07:50:24 PM »
Getting attention and boosting ratings may be the goal of the secular media,
but prayer for "the sick, the suffering, the captives and their salvation" should be the goal of every Orthodox Christian.

+Lord have mercy

Amin!

I thought you weren't considered a complete transman/transwoman until you had your operation.  I mean, you might feel like a man inside, but you're not all the way there until you go under the knife... right?  How can you think of yourself as man with a uterus?

Oh well, all these people need prayers.  The child especially, but the parents too.  I'm sure they wanted the publicity, but their lives won't be much fun for awhile.
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Offline livefreeordie

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Re: Pregnant ‘man’ tells Oprah: ‘It’s a miracle’
« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2008, 07:53:50 PM »
We have confronted the creations of god and have learned that we can do it better. We have held back the sea, rerouted rivers, created and drained lakes, defied gravity, and inhabited hostile space. We have cured diseases, we have built machines to calculate what all the human race could not have done working towards a single goal. In the works of god we see randomness and chaos, in the works of man we see reason and order.

We do not wish to play god, we wish to do what god could not have even dreamed.

The Fall brought death. And now man's trying to clean up after himself.  With the gifts and tools God gave him.  Just because we can understand the order and design of creation better, it doesn't mean the creator or our responsibility to him is diminished.  But that is all you seem to do with your many arguments, you wish to diminish the creator with words in order to make yourself responsible only to yourself.

Talk about something that has never/will never work.

You forgot the end of the sentence, "Talk about something that has never/will never work for GIC." Are you angry with God from something?

I really do pray for you.  And I hope it works.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2008, 07:56:37 PM by livefreeordie »

Offline Νεκτάριος

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Re: Pregnant ‘man’ tells Oprah: ‘It’s a miracle’
« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2008, 08:33:46 PM »
O God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this transvestite. 

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Re: Pregnant ‘man’ tells Oprah: ‘It’s a miracle’
« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2008, 08:36:46 PM »
We have confronted the creations of god and have learned that we can do it better. We have held back the sea, rerouted rivers, created and drained lakes, defied gravity, and inhabited hostile space. We have cured diseases, we have built machines to calculate what all the human race could not have done working towards a single goal. In the works of god we see randomness and chaos, in the works of man we see reason and order.

True, but New Orleans is a case study in just how well that all works out in the end. :P
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Offline livefreeordie

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Re: Pregnant ‘man’ tells Oprah: ‘It’s a miracle’
« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2008, 08:50:06 PM »
O God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this transvestite. 

Give me a break, no one here is ignoring the log in their own eye.  This person's sins are no worse than mine or anybody elses. But a man, who used to be a woman, who's having a baby, who then goes on Oprah, is just plain weird.  Then when someone implies this science experiment is a good thing it stands to reason people would be a little disagreeable to this position.

« Last Edit: April 04, 2008, 08:54:34 PM by livefreeordie »

Offline Myrrh23

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Re: Pregnant ‘man’ tells Oprah: ‘It’s a miracle’
« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2008, 09:01:44 PM »
Quote
We have confronted the creations of god and have learned that we can do it better. We have held back the sea, rerouted rivers, created and drained lakes, defied gravity, and inhabited hostile space. We have cured diseases, we have built machines to calculate what all the human race could not have done working towards a single goal. In the works of god we see randomness and chaos, in the works of man we see reason and order.

The chaos that mankind has wrought on God's creation belongs to mankind, because we often will not sit still and listen. If you look at everyday, God doesn't wake us up with a Simpsons-esque booming voice from the clouds. He lets us learn from our mistakes, however many times we repeat them. For the record, God has already given us our lessons in reason and order, just read the New Testement. You keep blaming God for the evil that is wrought upon innocent people. That's like blaming the rape victim for the rape, in that you're blaming someone who is without fault in the act for the evilness of the act! >:(

Quote
We do not wish to play god, we wish to do what god could not have even dreamed.

Yes....bow down to GIC, God, and he will give you the kingdoms of the world. Give me a break.... ::)

« Last Edit: April 04, 2008, 09:03:16 PM by Myrrh23 »
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Offline GiC

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Re: Pregnant ‘man’ tells Oprah: ‘It’s a miracle’
« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2008, 09:07:28 PM »
The Fall brought death. And now man's trying to clean up after himself.  With the gifts and tools God gave him.  Just because we can understand the order and design of creation better, it doesn't mean the creator or our responsibility to him is diminished.  But that is all you seem to do with your many arguments, you wish to diminish the creator with words in order to make yourself responsible only to yourself.

I'm sorry, am I supposed to dismiss the claims and accomplishments of modern science because it conflicts with ancient mesopotamian mythology? You're going to have to do better than that.

Quote
You forgot the end of the sentence, "Talk about something that has never/will never work for GIC." Are you angry with God from something?

No, not for me...and I have little objective evidence to suggest it will for anyone else either. One doesn't have to be angry with god to see this, one only has to look at him objectively and without faith.
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Offline GiC

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Re: Pregnant ‘man’ tells Oprah: ‘It’s a miracle’
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2008, 09:18:05 PM »
The chaos that mankind has wrought on God's creation belongs to mankind, because we often will not sit still and listen. If you look at everyday, God doesn't wake us up with a Simpsons-esque booming voice from the clouds. He lets us learn from our mistakes, however many times we repeat them. For the record, God has already given us our lessons in reason and order, just read the New Testement. You keep blaming God for the evil that is wrought upon innocent people. That's like blaming the rape victim for the rape, in that you're blaming someone who is without fault in the act for the evilness of the act! >:(

He doesn't do anything...but if we are to assume that has some hand in this world, then he is at fault for the chaos that besets us. Human actions don't cause huracanes, tornados, or earthquakes. We don't create diseases (except for a few in labs in modern years, but there is no case where any of those escaped to infect humans...only 'god's diseases' do that). Humans, with very few exceptions, don't cause random genetic mutations that burden children with deformities or mental retardation. It would seem that god is at fault. But, you say, it's because we sinned. How so? Someone ate a piece of fruit? Heck, even say that we disobeyed god...a small and finite creature offends an infinite, omniscient, and omnipotent entity, so he tortures their entire species, along with all the species that happen to live on the same planet, for ages? And yet these things are our fault?

By your logic the two year old that throws a temper tantrum and gets beat by his parents with a two-by-four is guilty of child abuse for throwing a temper tantrum in the first place.

Quote
Yes....bow down to GIC, God, and he will give you the kingdoms of the world. Give me a break.... ::)

No, not to me...bow down to science.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2008, 09:18:29 PM by greekischristian »
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Offline livefreeordie

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Re: Pregnant ‘man’ tells Oprah: ‘It’s a miracle’
« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2008, 09:18:15 PM »
I'm sorry, am I supposed to dismiss the claims and accomplishments of modern science because it conflicts with ancient mesopotamian mythology? You're going to have to do better than that.

I don't need to do better than that, I'm an Orthodox Christian, I believe the fall brought death and Christ rose from the dead bringing life, as the Church teaches.  If you don't believe it, you are the one trying to reconcile calling yourself "Orthodox", so it's your problem not mine.  But you aren't trying to reconcile anything.  You are just trying to destroy people's faith.

No, not for me...and I have little objective evidence to suggest it will for anyone else either. One doesn't have to be angry with god to see this, one only has to look at him objectively and without faith.

"him" ?

Offline Νεκτάριος

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Re: Pregnant ‘man’ tells Oprah: ‘It’s a miracle’
« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2008, 09:21:50 PM »

Offline GiC

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Re: Pregnant ‘man’ tells Oprah: ‘It’s a miracle’
« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2008, 09:22:46 PM »
I don't need to do better than that, I'm an Orthodox Christian, I believe the fall brought death and Christ rose from the dead bringing life, as the Church teaches.  If you don't believe it, you are the one trying to reconcile calling yourself "Orthodox", so it's your problem not mine.  But you aren't trying to reconcile anything.  You are just trying to destroy people's faith.

I just want people to think objectively...the conclusions they reach when they do so are for them to determine.

Quote
"him" ?

I probably should have used 'it', since assigning a gender is philosophically inaccurate...but I thought I'd bow to customary English usage in this instance. Didn't mean to offend you. ;)
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Offline GiC

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Re: Pregnant ‘man’ tells Oprah: ‘It’s a miracle’
« Reply #28 on: April 04, 2008, 09:24:13 PM »
I prefer "Her" myself...

You're right, I should have been more sensitive. In the future I'll make a point to refer to the Christian god as 'her' in order that I don't offend the politically correct sensibilities of livefreeordie.
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Offline livefreeordie

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Re: Pregnant ‘man’ tells Oprah: ‘It’s a miracle’
« Reply #29 on: April 04, 2008, 09:28:54 PM »
You're right, I should have been more sensitive. In the future I'll make a point to refer to the Christian god as 'her' in order that I don't offend the politically correct sensibilities of livefreeordie.

Offended? ;) I just thought you were slipping calling your God a him!

Offline Myrrh23

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Re: Pregnant ‘man’ tells Oprah: ‘It’s a miracle’
« Reply #30 on: April 04, 2008, 09:30:31 PM »
Quote
By your logic the two year old that throws a temper tantrum and gets beat by his parents with a two-by-four is guilty of child abuse for throwing a temper tantrum in the first place.

A two-year-old has limited understanding on how to act. I believe God gave Adam and Eve much better intelligence and understanding than that. And it wasn't "just a piece of fruit" that they ate, it was the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. I sorta think that by eating the fruit, mankind somehow changed on all levels. And God did not abandon his creations after their diobedience, but probably taught them how to survive in our world, hence the "till the ground" bit.
As for earthquakes, hurricanes and floods, I thought you'd appreciate the biological complexity of 'em, Greeki ;D...since you put so much stock in Science. I sort of look at them as an investment...(1) Use our (sometimes) intelligent brain to stay safe, and (2) Band together to alliviate suffering. I think without diseases and without natural trouble, we take God and the gifts He has given us for granted. I think these things CAN make us better, we just need to see them in a more positive light.
Also, just because a child is born with a deformity doesn't mean they're less than human or less than desireable.

Btw, just because I haven't figured all of this out yet doesn't mean I'm the equivalent of some ignorant, religious
hillbilly. You seem to see a lot of us that way, Greeki...

Quote
I prefer "Her" myself...

(Covers the pin-up) wouldn't want you to fall into idolatry, hehe.... ;) ;D
« Last Edit: April 04, 2008, 09:37:03 PM by Myrrh23 »
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All are tempted, but it is the courageous person who clings to God during the storm. For the Ego is a prison, but Christ is the Liberator

Offline GiC

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Re: Pregnant ‘man’ tells Oprah: ‘It’s a miracle’
« Reply #31 on: April 04, 2008, 09:39:16 PM »
Offended? ;) I just thought you were slipping calling your God a him!

LOL...thanks for watching out for me. ;)
"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry

Offline GiC

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Re: Pregnant ‘man’ tells Oprah: ‘It’s a miracle’
« Reply #32 on: April 04, 2008, 09:44:16 PM »
A two-year-old has limited understanding on how to act. I believe God gave Adam and Eve much better intelligence and understanding than that. And it wasn't "just a piece of fruit" that they ate, it was the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. I sorta think that by eating the fruit, mankind somehow changed on all levels. And God did not abandon his creations after their diobedience, but probably taught them how to survive in our world, hence the "till the ground" bit.
As for earthquakes, hurricanes and floods, I thought you'd appreciate the biological complexity of 'em, Greeki ;D...since you put so much stock in Science. I sort of look at them as an investment...(1) Use our (sometimes) intelligent brain to stay safe, and (2) Band together to alliviate suffering. I think without diseases and without natural trouble, we take God and the gifts He has given us for granted. I think these things CAN make us better, we just need to see them in a more positive light.
Also, just because a child is born with a deformity doesn't mean they're less than human or less than desireable.

Well, if the world can get so messed up by eating a piece of fruit, it seems to prove my original thesis: we can do better than god. Surely, we should be able to include a couple more fail-safes in our programming.

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Btw, just because I haven't figured all of this out yet doesn't mean I'm the equivalent of some ignorant, religious
hillbilly. You seem to see a lot of us that way, Greeki...

No, not at all, it's just my abrasive posting style...if you read through my posts you'll see that I've always been this way.
"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry

Offline livefreeordie

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Re: Pregnant ‘man’ tells Oprah: ‘It’s a miracle’
« Reply #33 on: April 04, 2008, 09:46:22 PM »
I just want people to think objectively...the conclusions they reach when they do so are for them to determine.)

GIC speak for, "I'm here to destroy people's faith."  It seems that if someone doesn't come to the same general conclusions as you on these matters of faith, it means they aren't thinking objectively.  Thus, you must keep attacking them.  In general, I could care less and this wouldn't bother me at all.  Many of my friends aren't Christians, almost none of the people that work for me are Christians, and debates on these topics occasionally come up with no bitterness, emnity or name calling. People do come to different conclusions.

But you come here to win, conquer and mess with people who have already come to a conclusion, "I'm an Orthodox Christian, I believe in miracles, I believe in prayer, I believe in the saints, etc." and want to be encouraged on that walk of faith, but that disgusts you and so you spend countless hours, days and weeks trying to break down their faith.

Offline livefreeordie

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Re: Pregnant ‘man’ tells Oprah: ‘It’s a miracle’
« Reply #34 on: April 04, 2008, 09:47:47 PM »
LOL...thanks for watching out for me. ;)

Hey, what are friends for! ;)

Offline Myrrh23

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Re: Pregnant ‘man’ tells Oprah: ‘It’s a miracle’
« Reply #35 on: April 04, 2008, 09:56:38 PM »
Quote
Well, if the world can get so messed up by eating a piece of fruit, it seems to prove my original thesis: we can do better than god. Surely, we should be able to include a couple more fail-safes in our programming.

Or maybe humans can stop being butt-heads, and..um..just obey God? Because if God is so powerful, He probably knows what He's doing when He says "Lay off the fruit!" ;)
Oh, but humans are sooo much smarter than God, aren't they? ;)
*I am no longer posting on OC.net*

We all have a Black Dog and a White Dog inside of us. The One you feed the most eventually eats the Other.

All are tempted, but it is the courageous person who clings to God during the storm. For the Ego is a prison, but Christ is the Liberator

Offline GiC

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Re: Pregnant ‘man’ tells Oprah: ‘It’s a miracle’
« Reply #36 on: April 04, 2008, 10:02:12 PM »
Or maybe humans can stop being butt-heads, and..um..just obey God? Because if God is so powerful, He probably knows what He's doing when He says "Lay off the fruit!" ;)
Oh, but humans are sooo much smarter than God, aren't they? ;)

But we've already run the programme and even our miniscule minds can see there's a problem. You don't need a Ph.D. in computer science to see that a screensaver that erases the registry is a bad programme, either as a result of maliciousness or incompetence. So we see what god did and know that even we can do better...maybe god isn't as powerful as we make her out to be. ;)
"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry

Offline prodromas

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Re: Pregnant ‘man’ tells Oprah: ‘It’s a miracle’
« Reply #37 on: April 04, 2008, 10:17:39 PM »
But we've already run the programme and even our miniscule minds can see there's a problem. You don't need a Ph.D. in computer science to see that a screensaver that erases the registry is a bad programme, either as a result of maliciousness or incompetence. So we see what god did and know that even we can do better...maybe god isn't as powerful as we make her out to be. ;)

GIC bravo, bravo.  You just love pushing the buttons  ;D
The sins I don't commit are largely due to the weakness of my limbs.

1915-1923 Հայոց Ցեղասպանութիւն ,never again,
ܩܛܠܐ ܕܥܡܐ ܐܬܘܪܝܐ 1920-1914, never again,
השואה  1933-1945, never again,
(1914-1923) Ελληνική Γενοκτονία, never again

Offline GiC

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Re: Pregnant ‘man’ tells Oprah: ‘It’s a miracle’
« Reply #38 on: April 04, 2008, 10:18:38 PM »
GIC speak for, "I'm here to destroy people's faith."  It seems that if someone doesn't come to the same general conclusions as you on these matters of faith, it means they aren't thinking objectively.  Thus, you must keep attacking them.  In general, I could care less and this wouldn't bother me at all.  Many of my friends aren't Christians, almost none of the people that work for me are Christians, and debates on these topics occasionally come up with no bitterness, emnity or name calling. People do come to different conclusions.

As long as you don't attempt to use political force to inflict it on others, I really don't care what you believe. I'm just here to discuss these matters.

Quote
But you come here to win, conquer and mess with people who have already come to a conclusion, "I'm an Orthodox Christian, I believe in miracles, I believe in prayer, I believe in the saints, etc." and want to be encouraged on that walk of faith, but that disgusts you and so you spend countless hours, days and weeks trying to break down their faith.

Even back when I agreed with the positions you espoused, I didn't come here to sit in a virtual circle and sing kumbaya. I came to discuss, to disagree, to debate. To learn about various positions, both my own and those contrary to mine, as well as to practice rhetoric and observe human psychology. Even without my help, debates seem to develop on this site and I'm, ultimately, only involved in a small percentage of them. It seems as though I'm not the only one to enjoy them...in fact, you seem all to happy to jump on board as well. ;)

This isn't a support group in your parish, it's an interent forum, and even then I respect boundaries. I don't start debates in the convert form, except in rare instances, generally when I fail to notice that it is the convert form and assume it's something else from the content of the post. I also won't debate in the prayer forum...even when it's clear the OP has an agenda. Furthermore, I don't jump into the gushy happy threads elsewhere on the thread where everyone is talking about how great liturgy was or how many metanias they did last night.

But if you're going to post on politics, abstract philosophy, social and religious moral expectations, human psychology, etc. I figure it's fair game.
"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry

Offline GiC

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Re: Pregnant ‘man’ tells Oprah: ‘It’s a miracle’
« Reply #39 on: April 04, 2008, 10:19:38 PM »
GIC bravo, bravo.  You just love pushing the buttons  ;D

Hmmm...I wonder what this big red one does. ;)
"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry

Offline livefreeordie

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Re: Pregnant ‘man’ tells Oprah: ‘It’s a miracle’
« Reply #40 on: April 04, 2008, 10:57:38 PM »
Even back when I agreed with the positions you espoused, I didn't come here to sit in a virtual circle and sing kumbaya. I came to discuss, to disagree, to debate. To learn about various positions, both my own and those contrary to mine, as well as to practice rhetoric and observe human psychology. Even without my help, debates seem to develop on this site and I'm, ultimately, only involved in a small percentage of them. It seems as though I'm not the only one to enjoy them...in fact, you seem all to happy to jump on board as well. ;)

I'm glad you find all of us ignorant peasants interesting and fun! But in my opinion, to study the human psychology of someone who after losing their faith, then spends countless hours and days and thousands of post on a board attacking the faith he lost is the truly fascinating thing.  What's most interesting is how you try to break Orthodoxy down into a system of logic and rhetoric in order to both keep some shadowy resemblance of faith and as a tool to suck people into your disbelief.

Over a beer I would be fascinated to listen you reconcile all of this and what affect it has on your life, but when the hillbilly jokes start I have to chime in! ;)
« Last Edit: April 04, 2008, 11:27:04 PM by livefreeordie »

Offline prodromas

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Re: Pregnant ‘man’ tells Oprah: ‘It’s a miracle’
« Reply #41 on: April 04, 2008, 11:26:23 PM »
To study the human psychology of someone who after losing their faith, then spends countless hours and days and thousands of post on a board attacking the faith he lost is a genuinely fascinating thing.  What's most interesting is how you try to break Orthodoxy down into a system of logic and rhetoric in order to both keep some shadowy resemblance of faith and as a tool to suck people into your disbelief.

Over a beer I would be fascinated to listen you reconcile all of this and what affect it has on your life, but when the hillbilly jokes start I have to chime in! ;)

Same GIC (about the beer and good conversation) if i'm ever in the U.S ill look you up!!
The sins I don't commit are largely due to the weakness of my limbs.

1915-1923 Հայոց Ցեղասպանութիւն ,never again,
ܩܛܠܐ ܕܥܡܐ ܐܬܘܪܝܐ 1920-1914, never again,
השואה  1933-1945, never again,
(1914-1923) Ελληνική Γενοκτονία, never again

Offline NihilNominis

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Re: Pregnant ‘man’ tells Oprah: ‘It’s a miracle’
« Reply #42 on: April 05, 2008, 12:09:35 AM »
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We have confronted the creations of god and have learned that we can do it better. We have held back the sea, rerouted rivers, created and drained lakes, defied gravity, and inhabited hostile space. We have cured diseases, we have built machines to calculate what all the human race could not have done working towards a single goal. In the works of god we see randomness and chaos, in the works of man we see reason and order.

Create one thing, a pencil, a leaf, a blade of grass, from nothing, and you will then have superceded the Almighty.

Everything that we use to build our technological towers of Babel was made by God.  Were man alone in the primordial void, before all was, he would be absolutely impotent compared to his Creator.

I also ask you this: from whence but His Creator could man's reason possibly proceed?  Or is reason itself a byproduct of chaos, in your mind?

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We do not wish to play god, we wish to do what god could not have even dreamed.

You're right, for God cannot conceive of evil; yet it seems to be man's greatest ambition.  His technological terrors make it ever easier to indulge himself in wicked perversions. 

Yes, we can now destroy with our weapons this world which God has made in His wisdom.  Is this beyond the dream of a loving Creator?  Is this the glory of science?  Hideous bombs which sear the flesh off of the innocents?!  Unfeeling mechanical warfare with no regard for human life?!  Disrespect for self to the point of denying one's own gender, and the creation of a 'science' to JUSTIFY this abomination!!!???!

THIS IS NO PROGRESS!  THIS IS MADNESS!
« Last Edit: April 05, 2008, 12:14:01 AM by NihilNominis »

Offline GabrieltheCelt

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Re: Pregnant ‘man’ tells Oprah: ‘It’s a miracle’
« Reply #43 on: April 05, 2008, 12:29:06 AM »
...ancient mesopotamian mythology?
And yet here you are, wasting your time with us 'ancient mesopotamian mythology believers' and other ne'er do wells.  That's one observable fact that we don't need a precious peer-reviewed journal to see.  But I for one sure am glad you find time during your gravity defying, disease curing, river damming, hostile space inhabiting schedule to pop in and set religious types straight.  Three cheers for God's loyal opposition!  :D
« Last Edit: April 05, 2008, 12:31:02 AM by GabrieltheCelt »
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Offline Riddikulus

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Re: Pregnant ‘man’ tells Oprah: ‘It’s a miracle’
« Reply #44 on: April 05, 2008, 01:47:05 AM »
Yes, we can now destroy with our weapons this world which God has made in His wisdom.  Is this beyond the dream of a loving Creator?  Is this the glory of science?  Hideous bombs which sear the flesh off of the innocents?!  Unfeeling mechanical warfare with no regard for human life?!  Disrespect for self to the point of denying one's own gender, and the creation of a 'science' to JUSTIFY this abomination!!!???!

Long before science reached its modern achievements, men were building weapons to kill each other, and most horribly; destroying the balance of nature as they did so. The fact that modern science has been used to make the process more efficient is sadly just more of the same old desire of mankind to dominate by whatever means it can. However, who decries the modern science that ensures their infant will not die of Diphtheria or any of the other diseases that stole the lives of three out of four born to the world? Thanks be to God; this is progress! 
« Last Edit: April 05, 2008, 01:49:23 AM by Riddikulus »
I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

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