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Author Topic: Pregnant ‘man’ tells Oprah: ‘It’s a miracle’  (Read 11467 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: April 04, 2008, 01:37:17 AM »

“It’s not a male or female desire to have a child. It’s a human desire,” a thinly bearded Thomas Beatie said.
“I have a very stable male identity,” he added, saying that pregnancy neither defines him nor makes him feel feminine.


here's the whole article:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23942218/wid/11915773?GT1=31037


Lord, how long?  I cannot imagine the days of Noah being any worse.

All I can say is
+Lord have mercy
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« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2008, 01:57:19 AM »

Lord, how long?  I cannot imagine the days of Noah being any worse.

Don't worry and have faith. It won't be long before the horror in which we find ourselves, where children are formed by the random combination of two dna sequences, is behind us. I know that we, along with all of humanity, both pray for the day when no child will be subject to the evils of random chance and all will be optimized and designed, free of genetic disease, athletic and beautiful, and with levels of intelligence unseen in our current age.
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« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2008, 02:00:50 AM »


Now I'm just confused.

And GiC isn't helping.


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« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2008, 02:07:42 AM »

^^ LOL
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« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2008, 03:08:41 AM »

Hmm.  Since she was born a woman, she'll die a woman.  Maybe a strange and bizarre woman, but a woman none-the-less.
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« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2008, 03:45:04 AM »

Hmm.  Since she was born a woman, she'll die a woman.  Maybe a strange and bizarre woman, but a woman none-the-less.

A surgically altered woman. Not many men I know have wombs.  Actually, none that I know.  Clothes may make the man, but scapul and injection don't.

And Greeki seems to be advocating the abolition of the exchange of DNA material, otherwise know as sex.
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« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2008, 03:52:18 AM »

Quote
Don't worry and have faith. It won't be long before the horror in which we find ourselves, where children are formed by the random combination of two dna sequences, is behind us. I know that we, along with all of humanity, both pray for the day when no child will be subject to the evils of random chance and all will be optimized and designed, free of genetic disease, athletic and beautiful, and with levels of intelligence unseen in our current age.

"Truly, Ye shall be as Gods...." Roll Eyes

Quote
And Greeki seems to be advocating the abolition of the exchange of DNA material, otherwise know as sex.

OOH! Do we get to pick what color test tube our future "Village of the Damned" kiddies are born in?? Grin
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« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2008, 09:16:14 AM »

Sigh...I am reminded of the recent story of the convicted murderer who is suing the state of Massachusetts to pay for "her" sex change (that's how many of the news stories are referring to him).

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« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2008, 10:14:59 AM »

And Greeki seems to be advocating the abolition of the exchange of DNA material, otherwise know as sex.

Nah, just advocating the abolation of the exchange of DNA for reproduction...no reason to get rid of recreational sex.
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« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2008, 10:16:52 AM »

I'd like to see an episode in House about this.  I bet it would be hilarious and entertaining (as it usually is).
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« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2008, 12:08:01 PM »

Don't worry and have faith. It won't be long before the horror in which we find ourselves, where children are formed by the random combination of two dna sequences, is behind us. I know that we, along with all of humanity, both pray for the day when no child will be subject to the evils of random chance and all will be optimized and designed, free of genetic disease, athletic and beautiful, and with levels of intelligence unseen in our current age.
It'll never happen Dr. Moreau.  Cheesy  Trying to abolish genetic disease is a noble and compassionate idea, but unfortunately playing God has never/will never  work.  You might look into prayer though.  Wink
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« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2008, 05:34:31 PM »

It'll never happen Dr. Moreau.  Cheesy  Trying to abolish genetic disease is a noble and compassionate idea, but unfortunately playing God has never/will never  work.

We have confronted the creations of god and have learned that we can do it better. We have held back the sea, rerouted rivers, created and drained lakes, defied gravity, and inhabited hostile space. We have cured diseases, we have built machines to calculate what all the human race could not have done working towards a single goal. In the works of god we see randomness and chaos, in the works of man we see reason and order.

We do not wish to play god, we wish to do what god could not have even dreamed.

Quote
You might look into prayer though.  Wink

Talk about something that has never/will never work.
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« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2008, 06:04:18 PM »

I caught a few minutes of the show (it was all that I could stand).  Honestly, I was perplexed by the whole thing.  What's so amazing about a transgendered woman who perceives herself as a man and is pregnant?  What would have been "amazing" would have been if "he" actually WAS a man, born a man, with male organs, and THEN was pregnant.  I don't consider a pregnant transgendered woman newsworthy, personally.

Two interesting observations, though...

The part that I saw was when "he" and "his" wife were talking about the fact that even the transgender community rejected the idea of "him" being pregnant... hmmm....

The other observation... just curious to see the viewers' responses, I got onto Oprah's website and read a few of the posts on the message board.  An overwhelming majority of people were absolutely appalled by the show.  There was even a post from an audience member, lamenting the fact that she and her family had been waiting for years to get to go to an Oprah taping, and when they got there they were subject to this "Jerry Springer" type show.  Even a transgender man (born a woman...) posted why it was inappropriate and appalling.  Nobody but Oprah and her producers seemed to think that this was newsworthy and a good idea.

Lord have mercy on us all.
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« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2008, 06:17:45 PM »

May the de-deification of Oprah proceed apace!
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« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2008, 06:46:36 PM »

The other observation... just curious to see the viewers' responses, I got onto Oprah's website and read a few of the posts on the message board.  An overwhelming majority of people were absolutely appalled by the show.  There was even a post from an audience member, lamenting the fact that she and her family had been waiting for years to get to go to an Oprah taping, and when they got there they were subject to this "Jerry Springer" type show.  Even a transgender man (born a woman...) posted why it was inappropriate and appalling.  Nobody but Oprah and her producers seemed to think that this was newsworthy and a good idea.

Lord have mercy on us all.

Well, the goal is to get attention and that gets ratings...considering we're discussing it here, looks like it worked.
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« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2008, 06:51:58 PM »

What's so amazing about a transgendered woman who perceives herself as a man and is pregnant?  What would have been "amazing" would have been if "he" actually WAS a man, born a man, with male organs, and THEN was pregnant.  I don't consider a pregnant transgendered woman newsworthy, personally.

I understand this and I agree.  However, what really got me troubled was thinking about the CHILD.  These women Roll Eyes are old enough to make their own decisions, but this child is innocent.  Everyone, please pray for all children today who are being born into homes/families that promote distorted sexuality.... that God's grace and wisdom will shine through the distortion, bringing truth and healing into their young hearts.

Again and again in peace let us pray to the Lord
+Lord have mercy
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« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2008, 06:57:52 PM »

Well, the goal is to get attention and that gets ratings...considering we're discussing it here, looks like it worked.

Getting attention and boosting ratings may be the goal of the secular media,
but prayer for "the sick, the suffering, the captives and their salvation" should be the goal of every Orthodox Christian.

+Lord have mercy
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« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2008, 07:50:24 PM »

Getting attention and boosting ratings may be the goal of the secular media,
but prayer for "the sick, the suffering, the captives and their salvation" should be the goal of every Orthodox Christian.

+Lord have mercy

Amin!

I thought you weren't considered a complete transman/transwoman until you had your operation.  I mean, you might feel like a man inside, but you're not all the way there until you go under the knife... right?  How can you think of yourself as man with a uterus?

Oh well, all these people need prayers.  The child especially, but the parents too.  I'm sure they wanted the publicity, but their lives won't be much fun for awhile.
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« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2008, 07:53:50 PM »

We have confronted the creations of god and have learned that we can do it better. We have held back the sea, rerouted rivers, created and drained lakes, defied gravity, and inhabited hostile space. We have cured diseases, we have built machines to calculate what all the human race could not have done working towards a single goal. In the works of god we see randomness and chaos, in the works of man we see reason and order.

We do not wish to play god, we wish to do what god could not have even dreamed.

The Fall brought death. And now man's trying to clean up after himself.  With the gifts and tools God gave him.  Just because we can understand the order and design of creation better, it doesn't mean the creator or our responsibility to him is diminished.  But that is all you seem to do with your many arguments, you wish to diminish the creator with words in order to make yourself responsible only to yourself.

Talk about something that has never/will never work.

You forgot the end of the sentence, "Talk about something that has never/will never work for GIC." Are you angry with God from something?

I really do pray for you.  And I hope it works.
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« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2008, 08:33:46 PM »

O God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this transvestite. 
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« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2008, 08:36:46 PM »

We have confronted the creations of god and have learned that we can do it better. We have held back the sea, rerouted rivers, created and drained lakes, defied gravity, and inhabited hostile space. We have cured diseases, we have built machines to calculate what all the human race could not have done working towards a single goal. In the works of god we see randomness and chaos, in the works of man we see reason and order.

True, but New Orleans is a case study in just how well that all works out in the end. Tongue
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« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2008, 08:50:06 PM »

O God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this transvestite. 

Give me a break, no one here is ignoring the log in their own eye.  This person's sins are no worse than mine or anybody elses. But a man, who used to be a woman, who's having a baby, who then goes on Oprah, is just plain weird.  Then when someone implies this science experiment is a good thing it stands to reason people would be a little disagreeable to this position.

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« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2008, 09:01:44 PM »

Quote
We have confronted the creations of god and have learned that we can do it better. We have held back the sea, rerouted rivers, created and drained lakes, defied gravity, and inhabited hostile space. We have cured diseases, we have built machines to calculate what all the human race could not have done working towards a single goal. In the works of god we see randomness and chaos, in the works of man we see reason and order.

The chaos that mankind has wrought on God's creation belongs to mankind, because we often will not sit still and listen. If you look at everyday, God doesn't wake us up with a Simpsons-esque booming voice from the clouds. He lets us learn from our mistakes, however many times we repeat them. For the record, God has already given us our lessons in reason and order, just read the New Testement. You keep blaming God for the evil that is wrought upon innocent people. That's like blaming the rape victim for the rape, in that you're blaming someone who is without fault in the act for the evilness of the act! Angry

Quote
We do not wish to play god, we wish to do what god could not have even dreamed.

Yes....bow down to GIC, God, and he will give you the kingdoms of the world. Give me a break.... Roll Eyes

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« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2008, 09:07:28 PM »

The Fall brought death. And now man's trying to clean up after himself.  With the gifts and tools God gave him.  Just because we can understand the order and design of creation better, it doesn't mean the creator or our responsibility to him is diminished.  But that is all you seem to do with your many arguments, you wish to diminish the creator with words in order to make yourself responsible only to yourself.

I'm sorry, am I supposed to dismiss the claims and accomplishments of modern science because it conflicts with ancient mesopotamian mythology? You're going to have to do better than that.

Quote
You forgot the end of the sentence, "Talk about something that has never/will never work for GIC." Are you angry with God from something?

No, not for me...and I have little objective evidence to suggest it will for anyone else either. One doesn't have to be angry with god to see this, one only has to look at him objectively and without faith.
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« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2008, 09:18:05 PM »

The chaos that mankind has wrought on God's creation belongs to mankind, because we often will not sit still and listen. If you look at everyday, God doesn't wake us up with a Simpsons-esque booming voice from the clouds. He lets us learn from our mistakes, however many times we repeat them. For the record, God has already given us our lessons in reason and order, just read the New Testement. You keep blaming God for the evil that is wrought upon innocent people. That's like blaming the rape victim for the rape, in that you're blaming someone who is without fault in the act for the evilness of the act! Angry

He doesn't do anything...but if we are to assume that has some hand in this world, then he is at fault for the chaos that besets us. Human actions don't cause huracanes, tornados, or earthquakes. We don't create diseases (except for a few in labs in modern years, but there is no case where any of those escaped to infect humans...only 'god's diseases' do that). Humans, with very few exceptions, don't cause random genetic mutations that burden children with deformities or mental retardation. It would seem that god is at fault. But, you say, it's because we sinned. How so? Someone ate a piece of fruit? Heck, even say that we disobeyed god...a small and finite creature offends an infinite, omniscient, and omnipotent entity, so he tortures their entire species, along with all the species that happen to live on the same planet, for ages? And yet these things are our fault?

By your logic the two year old that throws a temper tantrum and gets beat by his parents with a two-by-four is guilty of child abuse for throwing a temper tantrum in the first place.

Quote
Yes....bow down to GIC, God, and he will give you the kingdoms of the world. Give me a break.... Roll Eyes

No, not to me...bow down to science.
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« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2008, 09:18:15 PM »

I'm sorry, am I supposed to dismiss the claims and accomplishments of modern science because it conflicts with ancient mesopotamian mythology? You're going to have to do better than that.

I don't need to do better than that, I'm an Orthodox Christian, I believe the fall brought death and Christ rose from the dead bringing life, as the Church teaches.  If you don't believe it, you are the one trying to reconcile calling yourself "Orthodox", so it's your problem not mine.  But you aren't trying to reconcile anything.  You are just trying to destroy people's faith.

No, not for me...and I have little objective evidence to suggest it will for anyone else either. One doesn't have to be angry with god to see this, one only has to look at him objectively and without faith.

"him" ?
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« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2008, 09:21:50 PM »

"him" ?

I prefer "Her" myself...
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« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2008, 09:22:46 PM »

I don't need to do better than that, I'm an Orthodox Christian, I believe the fall brought death and Christ rose from the dead bringing life, as the Church teaches.  If you don't believe it, you are the one trying to reconcile calling yourself "Orthodox", so it's your problem not mine.  But you aren't trying to reconcile anything.  You are just trying to destroy people's faith.

I just want people to think objectively...the conclusions they reach when they do so are for them to determine.

Quote
"him" ?

I probably should have used 'it', since assigning a gender is philosophically inaccurate...but I thought I'd bow to customary English usage in this instance. Didn't mean to offend you. Wink
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« Reply #28 on: April 04, 2008, 09:24:13 PM »

I prefer "Her" myself...

You're right, I should have been more sensitive. In the future I'll make a point to refer to the Christian god as 'her' in order that I don't offend the politically correct sensibilities of livefreeordie.
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« Reply #29 on: April 04, 2008, 09:28:54 PM »

You're right, I should have been more sensitive. In the future I'll make a point to refer to the Christian god as 'her' in order that I don't offend the politically correct sensibilities of livefreeordie.

Offended? Wink I just thought you were slipping calling your God a him!
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« Reply #30 on: April 04, 2008, 09:30:31 PM »

Quote
By your logic the two year old that throws a temper tantrum and gets beat by his parents with a two-by-four is guilty of child abuse for throwing a temper tantrum in the first place.

A two-year-old has limited understanding on how to act. I believe God gave Adam and Eve much better intelligence and understanding than that. And it wasn't "just a piece of fruit" that they ate, it was the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. I sorta think that by eating the fruit, mankind somehow changed on all levels. And God did not abandon his creations after their diobedience, but probably taught them how to survive in our world, hence the "till the ground" bit.
As for earthquakes, hurricanes and floods, I thought you'd appreciate the biological complexity of 'em, Greeki Grin...since you put so much stock in Science. I sort of look at them as an investment...(1) Use our (sometimes) intelligent brain to stay safe, and (2) Band together to alliviate suffering. I think without diseases and without natural trouble, we take God and the gifts He has given us for granted. I think these things CAN make us better, we just need to see them in a more positive light.
Also, just because a child is born with a deformity doesn't mean they're less than human or less than desireable.

Btw, just because I haven't figured all of this out yet doesn't mean I'm the equivalent of some ignorant, religious
hillbilly. You seem to see a lot of us that way, Greeki...

Quote
I prefer "Her" myself...

(Covers the pin-up) wouldn't want you to fall into idolatry, hehe.... Wink Grin
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« Reply #31 on: April 04, 2008, 09:39:16 PM »

Offended? Wink I just thought you were slipping calling your God a him!

LOL...thanks for watching out for me. Wink
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« Reply #32 on: April 04, 2008, 09:44:16 PM »

A two-year-old has limited understanding on how to act. I believe God gave Adam and Eve much better intelligence and understanding than that. And it wasn't "just a piece of fruit" that they ate, it was the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. I sorta think that by eating the fruit, mankind somehow changed on all levels. And God did not abandon his creations after their diobedience, but probably taught them how to survive in our world, hence the "till the ground" bit.
As for earthquakes, hurricanes and floods, I thought you'd appreciate the biological complexity of 'em, Greeki Grin...since you put so much stock in Science. I sort of look at them as an investment...(1) Use our (sometimes) intelligent brain to stay safe, and (2) Band together to alliviate suffering. I think without diseases and without natural trouble, we take God and the gifts He has given us for granted. I think these things CAN make us better, we just need to see them in a more positive light.
Also, just because a child is born with a deformity doesn't mean they're less than human or less than desireable.

Well, if the world can get so messed up by eating a piece of fruit, it seems to prove my original thesis: we can do better than god. Surely, we should be able to include a couple more fail-safes in our programming.

Quote
Btw, just because I haven't figured all of this out yet doesn't mean I'm the equivalent of some ignorant, religious
hillbilly. You seem to see a lot of us that way, Greeki...

No, not at all, it's just my abrasive posting style...if you read through my posts you'll see that I've always been this way.
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« Reply #33 on: April 04, 2008, 09:46:22 PM »

I just want people to think objectively...the conclusions they reach when they do so are for them to determine.)

GIC speak for, "I'm here to destroy people's faith."  It seems that if someone doesn't come to the same general conclusions as you on these matters of faith, it means they aren't thinking objectively.  Thus, you must keep attacking them.  In general, I could care less and this wouldn't bother me at all.  Many of my friends aren't Christians, almost none of the people that work for me are Christians, and debates on these topics occasionally come up with no bitterness, emnity or name calling. People do come to different conclusions.

But you come here to win, conquer and mess with people who have already come to a conclusion, "I'm an Orthodox Christian, I believe in miracles, I believe in prayer, I believe in the saints, etc." and want to be encouraged on that walk of faith, but that disgusts you and so you spend countless hours, days and weeks trying to break down their faith.
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« Reply #34 on: April 04, 2008, 09:47:47 PM »

LOL...thanks for watching out for me. Wink

Hey, what are friends for! Wink
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« Reply #35 on: April 04, 2008, 09:56:38 PM »

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Well, if the world can get so messed up by eating a piece of fruit, it seems to prove my original thesis: we can do better than god. Surely, we should be able to include a couple more fail-safes in our programming.

Or maybe humans can stop being butt-heads, and..um..just obey God? Because if God is so powerful, He probably knows what He's doing when He says "Lay off the fruit!" Wink
Oh, but humans are sooo much smarter than God, aren't they? Wink
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« Reply #36 on: April 04, 2008, 10:02:12 PM »

Or maybe humans can stop being butt-heads, and..um..just obey God? Because if God is so powerful, He probably knows what He's doing when He says "Lay off the fruit!" Wink
Oh, but humans are sooo much smarter than God, aren't they? Wink

But we've already run the programme and even our miniscule minds can see there's a problem. You don't need a Ph.D. in computer science to see that a screensaver that erases the registry is a bad programme, either as a result of maliciousness or incompetence. So we see what god did and know that even we can do better...maybe god isn't as powerful as we make her out to be. Wink
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« Reply #37 on: April 04, 2008, 10:17:39 PM »

But we've already run the programme and even our miniscule minds can see there's a problem. You don't need a Ph.D. in computer science to see that a screensaver that erases the registry is a bad programme, either as a result of maliciousness or incompetence. So we see what god did and know that even we can do better...maybe god isn't as powerful as we make her out to be. Wink

GIC bravo, bravo.  You just love pushing the buttons  Grin
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« Reply #38 on: April 04, 2008, 10:18:38 PM »

GIC speak for, "I'm here to destroy people's faith."  It seems that if someone doesn't come to the same general conclusions as you on these matters of faith, it means they aren't thinking objectively.  Thus, you must keep attacking them.  In general, I could care less and this wouldn't bother me at all.  Many of my friends aren't Christians, almost none of the people that work for me are Christians, and debates on these topics occasionally come up with no bitterness, emnity or name calling. People do come to different conclusions.

As long as you don't attempt to use political force to inflict it on others, I really don't care what you believe. I'm just here to discuss these matters.

Quote
But you come here to win, conquer and mess with people who have already come to a conclusion, "I'm an Orthodox Christian, I believe in miracles, I believe in prayer, I believe in the saints, etc." and want to be encouraged on that walk of faith, but that disgusts you and so you spend countless hours, days and weeks trying to break down their faith.

Even back when I agreed with the positions you espoused, I didn't come here to sit in a virtual circle and sing kumbaya. I came to discuss, to disagree, to debate. To learn about various positions, both my own and those contrary to mine, as well as to practice rhetoric and observe human psychology. Even without my help, debates seem to develop on this site and I'm, ultimately, only involved in a small percentage of them. It seems as though I'm not the only one to enjoy them...in fact, you seem all to happy to jump on board as well. Wink

This isn't a support group in your parish, it's an interent forum, and even then I respect boundaries. I don't start debates in the convert form, except in rare instances, generally when I fail to notice that it is the convert form and assume it's something else from the content of the post. I also won't debate in the prayer forum...even when it's clear the OP has an agenda. Furthermore, I don't jump into the gushy happy threads elsewhere on the thread where everyone is talking about how great liturgy was or how many metanias they did last night.

But if you're going to post on politics, abstract philosophy, social and religious moral expectations, human psychology, etc. I figure it's fair game.
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« Reply #39 on: April 04, 2008, 10:19:38 PM »

GIC bravo, bravo.  You just love pushing the buttons  Grin

Hmmm...I wonder what this big red one does. Wink
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« Reply #40 on: April 04, 2008, 10:57:38 PM »

Even back when I agreed with the positions you espoused, I didn't come here to sit in a virtual circle and sing kumbaya. I came to discuss, to disagree, to debate. To learn about various positions, both my own and those contrary to mine, as well as to practice rhetoric and observe human psychology. Even without my help, debates seem to develop on this site and I'm, ultimately, only involved in a small percentage of them. It seems as though I'm not the only one to enjoy them...in fact, you seem all to happy to jump on board as well. Wink

I'm glad you find all of us ignorant peasants interesting and fun! But in my opinion, to study the human psychology of someone who after losing their faith, then spends countless hours and days and thousands of post on a board attacking the faith he lost is the truly fascinating thing.  What's most interesting is how you try to break Orthodoxy down into a system of logic and rhetoric in order to both keep some shadowy resemblance of faith and as a tool to suck people into your disbelief.

Over a beer I would be fascinated to listen you reconcile all of this and what affect it has on your life, but when the hillbilly jokes start I have to chime in! Wink
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« Reply #41 on: April 04, 2008, 11:26:23 PM »

To study the human psychology of someone who after losing their faith, then spends countless hours and days and thousands of post on a board attacking the faith he lost is a genuinely fascinating thing.  What's most interesting is how you try to break Orthodoxy down into a system of logic and rhetoric in order to both keep some shadowy resemblance of faith and as a tool to suck people into your disbelief.

Over a beer I would be fascinated to listen you reconcile all of this and what affect it has on your life, but when the hillbilly jokes start I have to chime in! Wink

Same GIC (about the beer and good conversation) if i'm ever in the U.S ill look you up!!
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« Reply #42 on: April 05, 2008, 12:09:35 AM »

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We have confronted the creations of god and have learned that we can do it better. We have held back the sea, rerouted rivers, created and drained lakes, defied gravity, and inhabited hostile space. We have cured diseases, we have built machines to calculate what all the human race could not have done working towards a single goal. In the works of god we see randomness and chaos, in the works of man we see reason and order.

Create one thing, a pencil, a leaf, a blade of grass, from nothing, and you will then have superceded the Almighty.

Everything that we use to build our technological towers of Babel was made by God.  Were man alone in the primordial void, before all was, he would be absolutely impotent compared to his Creator.

I also ask you this: from whence but His Creator could man's reason possibly proceed?  Or is reason itself a byproduct of chaos, in your mind?

Quote
We do not wish to play god, we wish to do what god could not have even dreamed.

You're right, for God cannot conceive of evil; yet it seems to be man's greatest ambition.  His technological terrors make it ever easier to indulge himself in wicked perversions. 

Yes, we can now destroy with our weapons this world which God has made in His wisdom.  Is this beyond the dream of a loving Creator?  Is this the glory of science?  Hideous bombs which sear the flesh off of the innocents?!  Unfeeling mechanical warfare with no regard for human life?!  Disrespect for self to the point of denying one's own gender, and the creation of a 'science' to JUSTIFY this abomination!!!???!

THIS IS NO PROGRESS!  THIS IS MADNESS!
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« Reply #43 on: April 05, 2008, 12:29:06 AM »

...ancient mesopotamian mythology?
And yet here you are, wasting your time with us 'ancient mesopotamian mythology believers' and other ne'er do wells.  That's one observable fact that we don't need a precious peer-reviewed journal to see.  But I for one sure am glad you find time during your gravity defying, disease curing, river damming, hostile space inhabiting schedule to pop in and set religious types straight.  Three cheers for God's loyal opposition!  Cheesy
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« Reply #44 on: April 05, 2008, 01:47:05 AM »

Yes, we can now destroy with our weapons this world which God has made in His wisdom.  Is this beyond the dream of a loving Creator?  Is this the glory of science?  Hideous bombs which sear the flesh off of the innocents?!  Unfeeling mechanical warfare with no regard for human life?!  Disrespect for self to the point of denying one's own gender, and the creation of a 'science' to JUSTIFY this abomination!!!???!

Long before science reached its modern achievements, men were building weapons to kill each other, and most horribly; destroying the balance of nature as they did so. The fact that modern science has been used to make the process more efficient is sadly just more of the same old desire of mankind to dominate by whatever means it can. However, who decries the modern science that ensures their infant will not die of Diphtheria or any of the other diseases that stole the lives of three out of four born to the world? Thanks be to God; this is progress! 
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« Reply #45 on: April 05, 2008, 02:28:31 AM »

Wait wait before we get all in a huff ask people to leave. I Really like the humanistic and liberterarian views of GiC and Nektarios. The old days consisted of a former Phanar Agent with a die hard Hellenic Dogmatist approach and the Hopeful "Silouan" Mount Athos-Panaghia lover who's Caveman-like mob mentality lost battles to EkhristosAnesti, Stavro and to the piously informed. We showed no amount of humility to discuss with Christian charity in its original intent by Robert, Anastasios, Phil and MorEphrem.  Like all of us, these people were heady believers at one time. We use an old lense of classical Christians systems to start a friendly discussion . Then this former board turned rotten to the core when it came to discussing things like the Papacy, monophysites, Muslims, Jews, ecumenism and possibly even leaning towards Theosophy.

But after 4 years I keep coming here precisely of as an off-beaten path discussing obscure reference to the Fathers and looking at the Prayer list. So it literally takes bad memories in church one Sunday to say how attrocious this board has gotten. I don't know if people like Asteriktos, cizinec, TomS or augustine have left but their tolerant tone during 2005-2006 left an indelible mark on my views as nominal Christian. I do believe people got self-righteous and much of the rhetoric became evident in a 3 year stint and then leaving.

The communication went missing after awhile and I might as well do the same. But in the meanwhile try to keep the discussion civil.
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« Reply #46 on: April 05, 2008, 03:06:35 AM »


Hopefully no one is decrying Modern Science and all of its achievements as such.  I think that things tend to turn sour when Modern Science is used to belittle and mock others who hold to an Orthodox Christian worldview.  If one doesn't believe in Orthodox Christianity, that is of coarse, one' perogotive.  But it is the Christian's perogotive and responsibility to address these negative slurs.  Not because Christianity needs defending, but because there are impressionable people who could be easily swayed by persuasive arguments.  And the slanderers and mockers themselves need both our prayers and to hear the Truth.

In Christ,

Gabriel   
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« Reply #47 on: April 05, 2008, 03:53:01 AM »

Hopefully no one is decrying Modern Science and all of its achievements as such.  I think that things tend to turn sour when Modern Science is used to belittle and mock others who hold to an Orthodox Christian worldview.  If one doesn't believe in Orthodox Christianity, that is of coarse, one' perogotive.  But it is the Christian's perogotive and responsibility to address these negative slurs.  Not because Christianity needs defending, but because there are impressionable people who could be easily swayed by persuasive arguments.  And the slanderers and mockers themselves need both our prayers and to hear the Truth.

I've read the New Testament many times over, a fairly decent chunk of patristic and monastic writings, been a practicing Christian for long enough to not really be considered a new convert and the main emphasis I've always seen has been on love, humility and not judging others.  What GiC and I are protesting so often is the mentality of "Oh should I eat lobster or shrimp this Friday?", the mentality of some here to pontificate that I'm not really a Christian since I can't find any justification in Christianity for using the brute force of the state to impose my moral views on others (ironically these same people are often foaming at the mouth in a frenzy over an ecclesiatical body that has a grand total of ONE word different in their creed and their inquisition...but thank God us Orthodox aren't like them!), or that I'm baffled as to why things like the Macedonian name dispute are as certain and important as the dogmas of the faith to many people in my parish, or that people here who clearly don't have the slightest training in biology, but wish to pontificate that if we don't accept their ex cathedra statements on biology that we are not really Orthodox.  So please, reply to this with something along the lines that you are fasting and praying for me (exactly as prescribed in the Gospels).  But, whether you like it or not, I still choose to identify as an Orthodox Christian because I believe at Christianity's core is the most noble philosophy and way of life - loving one's neighbor as oneself and that the way to transform the world is through love, not some hypocritical and self righteous condemnation. 
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« Reply #48 on: April 05, 2008, 09:27:37 AM »

I by no measure object to modern science, do not misunderstand me.

I object to GiC's blasphemous deification of modern science as "beyond God".  This is intolerable from one claiming to be an Orthodox Christian. 
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« Reply #49 on: April 05, 2008, 09:43:04 AM »

  What GiC and I are protesting so often is the mentality of "Oh should I eat lobster or shrimp this Friday?", the mentality of some here to pontificate that I'm not really a Christian since I can't find any justification in Christianity for using the brute force of the state to impose my moral views on others (ironically these same people are often foaming at the mouth in a frenzy over an ecclesiatical body that has a grand total of ONE word different in their creed and their inquisition...but thank God us Orthodox aren't like them!), or that I'm baffled as to why things like the Macedonian name dispute are as certain and important as the dogmas of the faith to many people in my parish, or that people here who clearly don't have the slightest training in biology, but wish to pontificate that if we don't accept their ex cathedra statements on biology that we are not really Orthodox.  . 

Are we on the same board?  These "debates" are usually never about things like "should I eat lobster or shrimp this Friday?", and I never get involved with things like that. And in general, when people talk about things like how to fast, how to pray, etc it's usually very charitable and loving, not judgemental. But it's when people say or imply things like, "prayer doesn't work", "miracles don't happen", "the fathers were ignorant sheepherders", "you are a fool and don't belong in the Church if you don't believe in evolution", "God is Science" that something must be said.
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« Reply #50 on: April 05, 2008, 09:47:26 AM »

But, whether you like it or not, I still choose to identify as an Orthodox Christian because I believe at Christianity's core is the most noble philosophy and way of life - loving one's neighbor as oneself and that the way to transform the world is through love, not some hypocritical and self righteous condemnation. 

I don't want anyone to not be Orthodox.  I'm truly glad you and GIC still identify yourself as Orthodox.
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« Reply #51 on: April 05, 2008, 11:36:43 AM »

Create one thing, a pencil, a leaf, a blade of grass, from nothing, and you will then have superceded the Almighty.

Give it time and it will happen...creatio ex nihilo is simply a matter of the manipulation of virtual particle pairs which can be created from nothing according to the principles of quantum mechanics. So what do physicists have to create from nothing to have superceded the almighty? A single particle? An atom? A molecule? An organic molecule? Ultimately, the creation of anything beyond a single particle is simply a matter of technological, rather than theoretical scientific, advancement...and that has been done numerous times.

Quote
Everything that we use to build our technological towers of Babel was made by God.  Were man alone in the primordial void, before all was, he would be absolutely impotent compared to his Creator.

But, of course, this hypothetical situation is not the case...we have been programmed by natural selection and, apparently, its programming has surpassed the abilities of the divine.

Quote
I also ask you this: from whence but His Creator could man's reason possibly proceed?  Or is reason itself a byproduct of chaos, in your mind?

From the neural connections that have been optimized by natural selection.

Quote
You're right, for God cannot conceive of evil; yet it seems to be man's greatest ambition.  His technological terrors make it ever easier to indulge himself in wicked perversions. 

Yes, we can now destroy with our weapons this world which God has made in His wisdom.  Is this beyond the dream of a loving Creator?  Is this the glory of science?  Hideous bombs which sear the flesh off of the innocents?!  Unfeeling mechanical warfare with no regard for human life?!  Disrespect for self to the point of denying one's own gender, and the creation of a 'science' to JUSTIFY this abomination!!!???!

THIS IS NO PROGRESS!  THIS IS MADNESS!

The death and destruction that has proceeded from the inventions of humanity is nominal in comparison to the death and destruction that has proceeded from the devices of god, from natural disasters and disease. And unlike god, who has offered no recourse to the evils he has placed upon us, humanity, by understanding the universe, has created treatments and solutions for the many hardships with which we are faced.
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« Reply #52 on: April 05, 2008, 11:48:57 AM »

Are we on the same board?  These "debates" are usually never about things like "should I eat lobster or shrimp this Friday?", and I never get involved with things like that. And in general, when people talk about things like how to fast, how to pray, etc it's usually very charitable and loving, not judgemental.

Stick around long enough, you'll see those discussions. And no, they're generally not directly judgemental, just extremly pietistic. The judgement is merely implied.

Quote
But it's when people say or imply things like, "prayer doesn't work", "miracles don't happen", "the fathers were ignorant sheepherders", "you are a fool and don't belong in the Church if you don't believe in evolution", "God is Science" that something must be said.

So say what you want, that's why we're here, to discuss these things. I certainly believe in the concept of a god and I believe this concept must include the laws and principles of science, what I object to is this view of god as a type of Zeus who sits on a mountain granting miracles and raining down destruction, sometimes at random, sometimes based on who sacrifices the most cows to him. I'm not going to join in the mad rush to slaughter and waste as many cows as possible to get favours...I don't think that the concept of god works this way.
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« Reply #53 on: April 05, 2008, 12:29:32 PM »

So say what you want, that's why we're here, to discuss these things. I certainly believe in the concept of a god and I believe this concept must include the laws and principles of science, what I object to is this view of god as a type of Zeus who sits on a mountain granting miracles and raining down destruction, sometimes at random, sometimes based on who sacrifices the most cows to him. I'm not going to join in the mad rush to slaughter and waste as many cows as possible to get favours...I don't think that the concept of god works this way.

Of course we are here to discuss these things.  But calling people fools, saying those that don't believe what you believe should be kicked out of the church, constantly baiting people, etc. shouldn't be part of it.  And that is the main reason you keep coming back.  First you enter the conversation and seem reasonable, then you insult and demean as long as you can, then you end with some wordy, high minded straw man argument in order to seem reasonable again.  All to attack people's faith and suck as many into your faithlessness as you can.

If I'm wrong I truly am sorry.  But your statements, strategies, beliefs and motivations seem pretty clear when looked at objectively. I would never want you to leave the church, I would hope you cling to christ and will join the saints in heaven. May you have a blessed lent, and may you make it to Church on Pascha, as you said you might!  Wink
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« Reply #54 on: April 05, 2008, 12:45:22 PM »

Of course we are here to discuss these things.  But calling people fools, saying those that don't believe what you believe should be kicked out of the church, constantly baiting people, etc. shouldn't be part of it.  And that is the main reason you keep coming back.  First you enter the conversation and seem reasonable, then you insult and demean as long as you can, then you end with some wordy, high minded straw man argument in order to seem reasonable again.  All to attack people's faith and suck as many into your faithlessness as you can.

Pray, tell, where in this thread did I call anyone a fool? It is a harsh term, which should be used sparingly; only when there is no other viable linguistic alternative (or when you're drunk enough that you can't be bothered to think of one Wink). I searched the thread to make sure, the only places I found that term being used was in your baseless accusations against me.
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« Reply #55 on: April 05, 2008, 01:19:04 PM »

Pray, tell, where in this thread did I call anyone a fool? It is a harsh term, which should be used sparingly; only when there is no other viable linguistic alternative (or when you're drunk enough that you can't be bothered to think of one Wink). I searched the thread to make sure, the only places I found that term being used was in your baseless accusations against me.

Uh, pray tell, nowhere.  Where did I say "this thread."  One need only read your history of posts to see there is nothing baseless about what I said.  I do think ignorant is usually your word of choice over fool though, should have been more exact! Wink Again, you lean on the straw man.
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« Reply #56 on: April 05, 2008, 01:26:07 PM »

The purple demons are back.  Ozgeorge, can you please lead in prayer that our Lord Jesus Christ may deliver us from the evil purple demons.

Seriously thought, I really hope we can calm down in this Great Lent.  If I may suggest, perhaps many of the things GiC writes may seem outright offensive, and if I know GiC just by the way he writes, he writes in a manner that tends to, as prodromas mentioned earlier, push buttons.

I do recall however someone earlier, whether intentional or not, did pass indirect judgment.  "I really do pray for you.  And I hope it works."  How should one respond to that?  Sure, we accept prayers from and to everyone, but not to single out someone's flaws and hoping that you could be the one to save him through your intercessions.  I believe right after that Nektarios, if one is able to read in between the lines, made a parody immediately for such judgmental language:

Quote
O God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this transvestite.

In other words, the person who did say, "I really do pray for you" sounded like a Pharisee to people like GiC, whether you intentionally meant to or not.  Now, I'm sorry to make this obvious for you, but maybe people don't understand how to read what they're reading, especially when understanding how they have written before in other subjects.  And even if GiC did believe science is above God (which I don't think he does believe; I think he has such a great respect for science that he exaggerates this respect in comparison to Greek-like gods, not the Trinity), I still think it does not warrant us to sound so self-righteous wishing for his "enlightenment to the right path" or "salvation."  Especially at this time, in this Lent, we should contemplate on our own faults.  Engage in the argument of the person, but do not engage in the person himself.  We don't even know GiC or Nektarios or Livefreeordie or me personally.  All we are are a bunch of screennames.  Therefore, if I don't know the person, I should not make indirect judgments on the forum to the person.

And before anyone replies and says "I didn't say..." put yourself in their shoes and think about how someone would say that to you.  Does it sound respectful?  Does it sound like when saying that, you will win them over?  Be humble.  Make yourself want his prayers before you exclaim to pray for them.

Forgive me, a sinner.

« Last Edit: April 05, 2008, 01:28:19 PM by minasoliman » Logged

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« Reply #57 on: April 05, 2008, 01:33:20 PM »

Thank you for the thoughtful and excellent post Minasoliman!
May we all have a blessed Lent and Pascha.         

pray for me a sinner,   Juliana
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« Reply #58 on: April 05, 2008, 01:34:33 PM »

I said "I really do pray for you."  Because I do.  I said, "And I hope it works.", because just earlier GIC said prayer never has and never will work. Since this was addressed to him and I thought it was clear what I was addressing, I didn't see the judgement in it.  I hope he prays for me, we are all sinners and I would hope in spite of all the talk here, we pray for each other.  If this came across as judgemental, I truly apologize.

And you are right, to get into a discussion like this at Lent, even if I believe my intentions are good, can really only be a bad thing.  I'll sign off this topic and free for all. Lent's tough enough as it is without having to worry about this!

I do recall however someone earlier, whether intentional or not, did pass indirect judgment.  "I really do pray for you.  And I hope it works."  How should one respond to that?  Sure, we accept prayers from and to everyone, but not to single out someone's flaws and hoping that you could be the one to save him through your intercessions.  I believe right after that Nektarios, if one is able to read in between the lines, made a parody immediately for such judgmental language:

In other words, the person who did say, "I really do pray for you" sounded like a Pharisee to people like GiC, whether you intentionally meant to or not.  Now, I'm sorry to make this obvious for you, but maybe people don't understand how to read what they're reading, especially when understanding how they have written before in other subjects.  And even if GiC did believe science is above God (which I don't think he does believe; I think he has such a great respect for science that he exaggerates this respect in comparison to Greek-like gods, not the Trinity), I still think it does not warrant us to sound so self-righteous wishing for his "enlightenment to the right path" or "salvation."  Especially at this time, in this Lent, we should contemplate on our own faults.  Engage in the argument of the person, but do not engage in the person himself.  We don't even know GiC or Nektarios or Livefreeordie or me personally.  All we are are a bunch of screennames.  Therefore, if I don't know the person, I should not make indirect judgments on the forum to the person.

And before anyone replies and says "I didn't say..." put yourself in their shoes and think about how someone would say that to you.  Does it sound respectful?  Does it sound like when saying that, you will win them over?  Be humble.  Make yourself want his prayers before you exclaim to pray for them.

Forgive me, a sinner.


« Last Edit: April 05, 2008, 02:09:43 PM by livefreeordie » Logged
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« Reply #59 on: April 05, 2008, 02:15:08 PM »

Quote
Give it time and it will happen...creatio ex nihilo is simply a matter of the manipulation of virtual particle pairs which can be created from nothing according to the principles of quantum mechanics. So what do physicists have to create from nothing to have superceded the almighty? A single particle? An atom? A molecule? An organic molecule?

Themselves.

Quote
But, of course, this hypothetical situation is not the case...we have been programmed by natural selection and, apparently, its programming has surpassed the abilities of the divine.

How do you know what God did and did not do?  Which processes are of His wisdom?  This natural selection which you worship is nothing but one of the works which God has made in His wisdom.  The very laws which make possible this science you deify were instituted by the Almighty.  This whole world which triumphs in its own wisdom and power was made by Him.

Yet, if He willed it, with merely a thought of His it would all vanish in the twinkling of an eye.  Where, then, are your godlike powers?  Your monstrous machines?  Your textbooks upon textbooks of worldly wisdom?  They are gone, useless, destroyed with the arrogant men who made them and returned to the dust from whence they came, before even the dust itself vanishes from all existence.

It is His Mercy, His Love, which allows such unrestrained arrogance as yours to persist even for a moment.

Quote
From the neural connections that have been optimized by natural selection.

You can keep one step behind me, to be sure, and we could play this backwards guessing game for-ever.  Yet, in the end, we would come to God, from whom proceed all things.

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The death and destruction that has proceeded from the inventions of humanity is nominal in comparison to the death and destruction that has proceeded from the devices of god, from natural disasters and disease.


These are not the works of God.  These are the works which our sin has brought upon us, they are facts of the fallen world!  Misfortunes from sin, and sin itself from pride and arrogance; indeed, you are no different from Adam...he thought as highly of himself, and it lead him to the bloodbath which has been human history!

Quote
And unlike god, who has offered no recourse to the evils he has placed upon us, humanity, by understanding the universe, has created treatments and solutions for the many hardships with which we are faced.

God has offered Himself as recourse, and Christ came to heal not only the disease, but its very cause; yet (like the Israelites) we prefer our King (human devices) to the leadership of God, and in so doing we fall further from Him and further into our arrogance and sins.
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« Reply #60 on: April 05, 2008, 03:41:46 PM »

I am actually taken back by some of what you are writing NihilNominis. You are repeating whats already acknowledge by orthodox christians especially during the Fast. However if you choose to point the conflicts that Publican is doing on his own then please see the dilemna the Pharisee is inciting as redundant rhetoric.
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« Reply #61 on: April 05, 2008, 04:40:46 PM »

(which I don't think he does believe; I think he has such a great respect for science that he exaggerates this respect in comparison to Greek-like gods, not the Trinity)

I think you hit the nail on the head, people make God out to be this Zeus-like character...and I think that humanity has surpassed and has become superior to this character everyone wants to call 'god'. Not that I think this is what God really is, God is more than a vindictive old man that plays the part of a sophist in the sky. God is the sustaining force behind the universe, the unity and plurality of all things, the source and the conclusion...bringing God into these petty disputes and using the Divine as an excuse to condemn your neighbour only diminishes our understanding of the One.
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« Reply #62 on: April 05, 2008, 06:10:39 PM »

The purple demons are back.  Ozgeorge, can you please lead in prayer that our Lord Jesus Christ may deliver us from the evil purple demons.

Seriously thought, I really hope we can calm down in this Great Lent.  If I may suggest, perhaps many of the things GiC writes may seem outright offensive, and if I know GiC just by the way he writes, he writes in a manner that tends to, as prodromas mentioned earlier, push buttons.

I do recall however someone earlier, whether intentional or not, did pass indirect judgment.  "I really do pray for you.  And I hope it works."  How should one respond to that?  Sure, we accept prayers from and to everyone, but not to single out someone's flaws and hoping that you could be the one to save him through your intercessions.  I believe right after that Nektarios, if one is able to read in between the lines, made a parody immediately for such judgmental language:

In other words, the person who did say, "I really do pray for you" sounded like a Pharisee to people like GiC, whether you intentionally meant to or not.  Now, I'm sorry to make this obvious for you, but maybe people don't understand how to read what they're reading, especially when understanding how they have written before in other subjects.  And even if GiC did believe science is above God (which I don't think he does believe; I think he has such a great respect for science that he exaggerates this respect in comparison to Greek-like gods, not the Trinity), I still think it does not warrant us to sound so self-righteous wishing for his "enlightenment to the right path" or "salvation."  Especially at this time, in this Lent, we should contemplate on our own faults.  Engage in the argument of the person, but do not engage in the person himself.  We don't even know GiC or Nektarios or Livefreeordie or me personally.  All we are are a bunch of screennames.  Therefore, if I don't know the person, I should not make indirect judgments on the forum to the person.

And before anyone replies and says "I didn't say..." put yourself in their shoes and think about how someone would say that to you.  Does it sound respectful?  Does it sound like when saying that, you will win them over?  Be humble.  Make yourself want his prayers before you exclaim to pray for them.

Forgive me, a sinner.

Thank you for this post, minasoliman. I have wanted to type something like it, but was having trouble getting my thoughts around it. As it happens, you said it so much better than I could.

Lord have mercy on all we sinners.
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« Reply #63 on: April 05, 2008, 08:30:41 PM »

Quote
I am actually taken back by some of what you are writing NihilNominis. You are repeating whats already acknowledge by orthodox christians especially during the Fast. However if you choose to point the conflicts that Publican is doing on his own then please see the dilemna the Pharisee is inciting as redundant rhetoric.


I'm not quite sure what you mean, but -

Normally I am not so forceful, but when a man deifies humanity - nay, claims mankind to have superceded God Himself - is it not fitting to admonish him?

However, if this:

Quote
God is the sustaining force behind the universe, the unity and plurality of all things, the source and the conclusion...bringing God into these petty disputes and using the Divine as an excuse to condemn your neighbour only diminishes our understanding of the One.

is what he truly believes - that God is the A and the O, the beginning and end, that without which nothing could exist - why does he speak as if God is lowly and man is on a high place? 

Tell me GiC, because I have now journeyed from agitation to confusion.  How can you say both what you have said above and this:

Quote
So what do physicists have to create from nothing to have superceded the almighty?
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« Reply #64 on: April 05, 2008, 08:48:54 PM »

Tell me GiC, because I have now journeyed from agitation to confusion.  How can you say both what you have said above and this:

Because I was mocking the idea of God being some sophist judge who has nothing better to do than involve himself in your personal morality or sexuality. Trying to make God into this personal entity in the sky that you must dedicate your life to placating reduces the very concept of God to a laughable myth, the God of that myth, created by ancient man, is inferior to modern man.
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« Reply #65 on: April 05, 2008, 08:53:03 PM »

You know, as I reflect and leave my tempermental emotional side (I beg forgiveness, GiC),
I have come to realise that this discussion does nothing but reflect clearly the natural human desire for theosis.

Orthodoxy preaches theosis through prayer, sacrament and repentance.

GiC and his sort seek theosis through their technological wonders by which they attempt to become gods themselves, perhaps even believeing that such theosis is the will of the One True God.

Many others seek it in many different ways, but (however much in error they are) they all seek the same thing.

GiC, I will trouble you no more.  God Bless.
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« Reply #66 on: April 06, 2008, 01:53:26 AM »

GiC and his sort seek theosis through their technological wonders by which they attempt to become gods themselves, perhaps even believeing that such theosis is the will of the One True God.

Many others seek it in many different ways, but (however much in error they are) they all seek the same thing.

NihilNominis,

This seems very judgemental, sandwiched as it is between a plea for forgiveness and a blessing.

Forgive me if I have misunderstood your intention.

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« Reply #67 on: April 06, 2008, 02:33:32 AM »

I think you hit the nail on the head, people make God out to be this Zeus-like character...and I think that humanity has surpassed and has become superior to this character everyone wants to call 'god'. Not that I think this is what God really is, God is more than a vindictive old man that plays the part of a sophist in the sky. God is the sustaining force behind the universe, the unity and plurality of all things, the source and the conclusion...bringing God into these petty disputes and using the Divine as an excuse to condemn your neighbour only diminishes our understanding of the One.
I actually think I may possibly agree with this.  Possibly.  Wink Cheesy
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« Reply #68 on: April 06, 2008, 02:53:39 AM »

I think you hit the nail on the head, people make God out to be this Zeus-like character...and I think that humanity has surpassed and has become superior to this character everyone wants to call 'god'. Not that I think this is what God really is, God is more than a vindictive old man that plays the part of a sophist in the sky. God is the sustaining force behind the universe, the unity and plurality of all things, the source and the conclusion...bringing God into these petty disputes and using the Divine as an excuse to condemn your neighbour only diminishes our understanding of the One.

I always find it interesting that most people's God has all the preferences and prejudices and even tolerances that they have, but I guess that is the way of people to create a deity in their own image. And I don't mean that to be judgemental, because it's a trap that we can all fall into. It's hardly a new trend and it's one that doesn't seem to be on the wane. 
« Last Edit: April 06, 2008, 02:57:52 AM by Riddikulus » Logged

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« Reply #69 on: April 06, 2008, 02:59:33 PM »

Quote
Because I was mocking the idea of God being some sophist judge who has nothing better to do than involve himself in your personal morality or sexuality. Trying to make God into this personal entity in the sky that you must dedicate your life to placating reduces the very concept of God to a laughable myth, the God of that myth, created by ancient man, is inferior to modern man.

You mean the God the Eastern Orthodox honor, the God who cares how we behave towards one another and how we honor what He has given us? Greeki, you swing from holding your nose away in disdain towards Orthodoxic concepts of God to staring up in awe with your jaw open:
Quote
God is the sustaining force behind the universe, the unity and plurality of all things, the source and the conclusion....

Hon, you can't have it both ways within Orthodoxy, and I stay within the discussion of Orthodoxy here, not Protestantism or anything else.
I do agree that mankind loves to play God's henchmen down here on Planet Earth, but that doesn't mean God doesn't try to meet us on a personal level. If God doesn't care enough about humans to guide our way, what need have we then of Jesus Christ? What need have we of Christianity? God is involved in our lives, but He also respects our Free Will. You always blame God for the trouble that humans wrought, like "Where is God while that man is busy killing that man?" I'd like to ask, where's the rest of mankind while it's happening? We're not babies in diapers, Greeki...we're capable of fixing our world...we just don't want to, and God knows this. We have the intelligence to use our technology for good....we just don't want to!
It's like, from His study, Dad can watch His two grown children fight and bicker and wound each other, but He'll step in when He needs to, and He alone is wise enough to know when He needs to. I think the superstition here is not believing in a Personal God, but believing that He's going to solve all our problems FOR us. But just like your average parent doesn't unhook the phone when a child leaves the nest, God still cares very much for us, though in a much more intimate way because He's so much better than us.
And I doubt you'd be as proud of man's achievements if he didn't have anything to compete against, like diseases and natural disasters. Without those, I doubt you'd have much wind for your sail, lol... Wink Kiss
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« Reply #70 on: April 06, 2008, 04:52:22 PM »

 
Hon, you can't have it both ways within Orthodoxy, and I stay within the discussion of Orthodoxy here, not Protestantism or anything else.

Yes I can, I simply embrace the Neo-Platonic influences on Christianity while condemning the Judaizers and their mythology of a personal deity. A few years back when I created this account I chose the name 'greekischristian' for a reason. If I am error in holding and teaching this, I await my anathema from my Metropolitan and if I will gladly take the title of heresiarch.

Quote
I do agree that mankind loves to play God's henchmen down here on Planet Earth, but that doesn't mean God doesn't try to meet us on a personal level. If God doesn't care enough about humans to guide our way, what need have we then of Jesus Christ? What need have we of Christianity? God is involved in our lives, but He also respects our Free Will. You always blame God for the trouble that humans wrought, like "Where is God while that man is busy killing that man?" I'd like to ask, where's the rest of mankind while it's happening? We're not babies in diapers, Greeki...we're capable of fixing our world...we just don't want to, and God knows this. We have the intelligence to use our technology for good....we just don't want to!

I don't blame god, I can just see from the history of the human experience that he doesn't involve himself in our affaris...at any level.

Quote
And I doubt you'd be as proud of man's achievements if he didn't have anything to compete against, like diseases and natural disasters. Without those, I doubt you'd have much wind for your sail, lol... Wink Kiss

So god inflicts young children with genetic disease because he wants to help? The simple explination that he is indifferent and does not involve himself is far more logically consistent.
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« Reply #71 on: April 06, 2008, 07:17:10 PM »

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NihilNominis,

This seems very judgemental, sandwiched as it is between a plea for forgiveness and a blessing.

Forgive me if I have misunderstood your intention.


Not a judgement of anyone, just an observation of human nature.  Whatever we do, whatever we say, all seems to stem from some personal interpretation of each one's inner need for theosis.

Not sure how you extracted a judgemental statement from that, but if you did it is my own fault.

-NN
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« Reply #72 on: April 07, 2008, 10:19:21 PM »

The simple explination that he is indifferent and does not involve himself is far more logically consistent.

Well, it would be "logically consistent", except for the fact that we worship a God Who became Incarnate and entered human history. Like it or not, God is "personally involved". You are simply confusing Dispassion with apathy and cynicism.

Two things about God: He is Existence and Love. He is "I AM" and He is Love as the Apostle teaches us.
A Being Who is Love is not a "dissinterested witness".
« Last Edit: April 07, 2008, 10:27:17 PM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #73 on: April 07, 2008, 11:04:54 PM »

Nah, just advocating the abolation of the exchange of DNA for reproduction...no reason to get rid of recreational sex.
Yes, it's a Brave New World.

And the hubris goes on:
We have confronted the creations of god and have learned that we can do it better. We have held back the sea, rerouted rivers, created and drained lakes,

and polluted all of the above.

Quote
defied gravity, and inhabited hostile space.
and the Challenger brought us back down to earth and taught us humility.  At least some of us.

Quote
We have cured diseases,
and invented biological weapons.

Quote
we have built machines to calculate what all the human race could not have done working towards a single goal.
acquiring nuclear weapons?

 
Quote
In the works of god we see randomness and chaos, in the works of man we see reason and order.
Intelligent design.

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We do not wish to play god, we wish to do what god could not have even dreamed.
Reality is but His dream.

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Talk about something that has never/will never work.
Perhaps He just answered by telling you "no."

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If any one destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and that temple you are.
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« Reply #74 on: April 08, 2008, 12:23:53 AM »

Yes, it's a Brave New World.

You would seem to prefer the future of Orwell to that of Huxley, 'Ignorance is Strength'.

Quote
And the hubris goes on:
and polluted all of the above.

And learned to clean it up.

Quote
and the Challenger brought us back down to earth and taught us humility.  At least some of us.

That was a quarter of a century ago...you learn from your mistakes and move on. That's the great thing about science (and the undoing of theology), failure can do as much to advance the field as successes.

Quote
and invented biological weapons.

And, pray tell, how many have been killed by biological weapons vs. how many have been saved by modern medicine? Seems like a pretty damn good trade off.

Quote
acquiring nuclear weapons?

Didn't really need computers for that, though they helped slightly. And, in the end, they saved more lives than they destroyed.

Quote
Intelligent design.

Works well for the time being, but evolutionary computation is the wave of the computer...there are just some problems too complex for men or gods to solve, only evolution has that power.

Quote
Reality is but His dream.

Took him long enough to wake up.

Quote
Perhaps He just answered by telling you "no."

Seems to be the only answer he is capable of giving.
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« Reply #75 on: September 01, 2011, 10:50:43 PM »

It seems that the "pregnant man" blames bankruptcy on his publicity, and is upset he was passed up for Chas Bono on Dancing with the Stars.
http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailymail.co.uk%2Ftvshowbiz%2Farticle-2032268%2FPregnant-man-claims-Chers-son-Chaz-Bono-took-spot-Dancing-With-The-Stars.html&h=XAQDI7TbfAQCgnZ5NPkFWspxfAHzOXVns7eA1QN4R_UNAHQ
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« Reply #76 on: September 02, 2011, 08:08:40 AM »

In the works of god we see randomness and chaos, in the works of man we see reason and order.

Three year old BS flag.
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