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Author Topic: Mikhail Gorbachev discovered praying at the tomb of Francis of Assisi  (Read 6492 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: March 21, 2008, 03:05:23 PM »

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article3583686.ece

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Mikhail Gorbachev is a Christian say Franciscan friars
Richard Owen of The Times in Rome

Franciscan friars at Assisi have confirmed that Mikhail Gorbachev, the last Soviet President, is a Christian after he was seen praying at the tomb of St Francis.

Mr Gorbachev has long acknowledged that he was influenced by his grandmother, an Orthodox believer and is a a regular participant in peace conferences in the Umbrian town where St Francis is buried. Vladimir Putin, a former KGB officer, has also turned to Orthodox Christianity and wears a cross round his neck.

Father Miroslavo Anuskevic, a Lithuanian priest at the Basilica of St Francis, said he had spotted Mr Gorbachev - for years a professed Communist atheist - praying anonymously "in silent meditation" for half an hour at the tomb of St Francis "with very Oriental intensity" with his eyes closed, alongside his daughter Irina.

President Reagan is said to have often wondered whether the Soviet Union's last leader was a "closet Christian," observing to aides at one point during a US-Soviet summit "I think he believes". Mr Gorbachev's parents reportedly kept Orthodox icons hidden behind pictures of Stalin and Lenin, as did the parents of his late wife, Raisa, who were reportedly executed for the offence.
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Father Anuskevic told La Stampa Mr Gorbachev had observed to him that "St Francis is for me the other Christ. His story fascinates me and has played a fundamental role in my life.....It was through St Francis that I came to the Church, so it was important that I came to visit his tomb. I feel very emotional to be in a place which is so important not only for the Catholic faith but for all humanity."

Mr Gorbachev talked at length about his humanitarian and charitable work, Father Anuskevic said. He had also spoken about about Russia "and how important it is for the world that the transition to democracy, although painful for Russia, must endure". He had said that Russia was "a country of great spirituality", and had stressed the need to protect the Earth's environment as God's creation.

 
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« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2008, 12:40:57 PM »

 Mikhail Gorbachev admits he is a Christian

By Malcolm Moore in Rome

Mikhail Gorbachev, the last Communist leader of the Soviet Union, has acknowledged his Christian faith for the first time, paying a surprise visit to pray at the tomb of St Francis of Assisi.
    
Accompanied by his daughter Irina, Mr Gorbachev spent half an hour on his knees in silent prayer at the tomb.

His arrival in Assisi was described as "spiritual perestroika" by La Stampa, the Italian newspaper.

"St Francis is, for me, the alter Christus, the other Christ," said Mr Gorbachev. "His story fascinates me and has played a fundamental role in my life," he added.

Mr Gorbachev's surprise visit confirmed decades of rumours that, although he was forced to publicly pronounce himself an atheist, he was in fact a Christian, and casts a meeting with Pope John Paul II in 1989 in a new light.

Mr Gorbachev, 77, was baptised into the Russian Orthodox Church and his parents were Christians.

In addition, the parents of his wife Raisa were deeply religious and were killed during the Second World War for having religious icons in their home.

Ronald Reagan, the former United States president, allegedly told his close aides on a number of occasions that he felt his opponent during the Cold War was a "closet believer".

Mr Reagan held deep religious convictions himself. However, until now Mr Gorbachev has allowed himself to express only pantheistic views, saying in one interview "nature is my god".

After his prayers, Mr Gorbachev toured the Basilica of St Francis and asked in particular to be shown an icon of St Francis portraying his "dream at Spoleto".

St Francis, who lived in the 12th century, was a troubadour and a poet before the spiritual vision caused him to return to Assisi and contemplate a religious life.

Even in his early days, St Francis helped the poor, once giving all of his money to a beggar. As well as spending time in the wilderness, he also nursed lepers and eventually became a priest [uh, no. He resisted ordination and only was made a deacon, extremely reluctantly].

"It was through St Francis that I arrived at the Church, so it was important that I came to visit his tomb," said Mr Gorbachev.
    
"I feel very emotional to be here at such an important place not only for the Catholic faith, but for all humanity."

He also asked the monks for theological books to help him understand St Francis's life.

Father Miroslavo Anuskevic, who accompanied the former Soviet leader, said: "He was not recognised by any of the worshippers in the church, and silently meditated at the tomb for a while. He seemed a man deeply inspired by charity, and told me that he was involved in a project to help children with cancer.

"He talked a lot about Russia and said that even though the transition to democracy had been very important for the world, it was very painful for Russia. He said it was a country which has a great history, and also a great spirituality."

-



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/03/19/wgorbachev119.xml

-------------

What wonderful news!
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« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2008, 07:40:03 PM »

I thought we orthodox don't accept st. Francis as a saint ...didn't the orthodox church say he was decieved by demons i read a article about it was it here or caf....how can Gobachev pray there...I guess being a former communist he doesn't know better and isn't strong in the orthodox faith yet....stasko/stanislav
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« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2008, 08:08:46 PM »

I thought we orthodox don't accept st. Francis as a saint ...didn't the orthodox church say he was decieved by demons i read a article about it was it here or caf....how can Gobachev pray there...I guess being a former communist he doesn't know better and isn't strong in the orthodox faith yet....stasko/stanislav

There are also Orthodox members, including my Priest, who think very highly of Francis of Assisi, especially his charitable acts and love of animals/nature.  They might not consider him a Saint, but many view him in a very positive light.  There is an article by a Russian Priest comparing him to Seraphim of Sarov that focuses on things like the stigmata, but his is one Priest, not the Church, nor the thread to bring it up in.  Many people find various inspirations in their life, what is important is it brings him closer to Christ, especially coming from an atheist.  Without people like Francis of Assisi and Pio of Pietrelcina, I doubt religion would have much role in my life at this point.

The tomb of Francis of Assisi is absolutely stunning and humbling, if anyone ever has the chance to visit it.
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« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2008, 08:54:37 PM »

There are also Orthodox members, including my Priest, who think very highly of Francis of Assisi, especially his charitable acts and love of animals/nature.  They might not consider him a Saint, but many view him in a very positive light.  There is an article by a Russian Priest comparing him to Seraphim of Sarov that focuses on things like the stigmata, but his is one Priest, not the Church, nor the thread to bring it up in.  Many people find various inspirations in their life, what is important is it brings him closer to Christ, especially coming from an atheist.  Without people like Francis of Assisi and Pio of Pietrelcina, I doubt religion would have much role in my life at this point.

The tomb of Francis of Assisi is absolutely stunning and humbling, if anyone ever has the chance to visit it.


I got to say Brother no offence to you ,,,i agree with the holy russian orthodox priest in this who is a theologian and studied it in great depth....who represents the one holy orthodox catholic church on this ....did anyone in the orthodox religious world say anything contrary to what this saintly father said.....any patriarch,metropolitan,arch bishop,bishop anyone other than your priest id like to know....stasko/stanislav  ps hindus have stunning temples doesn't make it true though
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« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2008, 03:48:56 PM »

Gorbachev isn't Christian, as you can see here:

Quote
"Over the last few days some media have been disseminating fantasies—I can’t use any other word—about my secret Catholicism, citing my visit to the Sacro Convento friary, where the remains of St. Francis of Assisi lie," Gorbachev told the Russian news agency Interfax. "To sum up and avoid any misunderstandings, let me say that I have been and remain an atheist."

Though Gorbachev acknowledged the vital role that religion plays in people’s lives, he insisted it still plays no role in his own and wondered out loud why his many tours of Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant churches, mosques and synagogues never prompted similar speculation that he was Protestant, Muslim or Jewish.

Gorbachev’s response comes as no surprise to Eugene Clay, an associate professor of religious studies who specializes in Eastern Rite Christianity. Of all the Soviet leaders, Gorbachev most recognized and respected the role of religion, Clay told me.

"The church is an important institution culturally and politically, and politicians have recognized that," he said. "In fact the church is more widely trusted than many of the political institutions. The personal faith of these politicians is less clear."

Though conversions are possible, the likelihood that Gorbachev harbors any relationship with Jesus Christ is slim to none, Clay said.

"A lot of the older people were raised as atheists and taught religion was something that was going to disappear. ... At best, it was something obsolete. At worst, it was something sinister."

Scholars say the notion that Gorbachev is Roman Catholic is even more absurd. The Russian church has been unable to forgive or forget the differences over papal authority and creed that sparked the Great Schism between the Eastern and Western churches. Even eight centuries later, Russian Orthodox leaders accuse the Roman Catholic church of poaching believers by offering humanitarian aid and pews where parishioners can sit during worship.

Judging from his philanthropic work, Clay said, if Gorbachev has adopted any religion it is secular humanism.
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« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2008, 04:29:59 PM »

I thought we orthodox don't accept st. Francis as a saint ...didn't the orthodox church say he was decieved by demons i read a article about it was it here or caf....how can Gobachev pray there...I guess being a former communist he doesn't know better and isn't strong in the orthodox faith yet....stasko/stanislav

I think it is amazing that many EO can't admit that a non-EO Christian was holy.  They have to say he was demon posessed.  I have heard similar ideas about Mother Teresa on this forum.  This hate only drives people away.

I read the same article you refer to but the fact is that just as St. Francis could have been led by demons so could St. Seraphim have.  Supposedly he was made so bright people couldn't look at him.  Using the same logic your beloved priest used, this is nothing other than the effects of demons.
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« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2008, 04:31:27 PM »

any patriarch,metropolitan,arch bishop,bishop anyone other than your priest id like to know

Why? So you and your internet guru can publicly deride that member of the clergy? 
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« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2008, 05:15:17 PM »

I think it is amazing that many EO can't admit that a non-EO Christian was holy.  They have to say he was demon posessed.  I have heard similar ideas about Mother Teresa on this forum.  This hate only drives people away.

I read the same article you refer to but the fact is that just as St. Francis could have been led by demons so could St. Seraphim have.  Supposedly he was made so bright people couldn't look at him.  Using the same logic your beloved priest used, this is nothing other than the effects of demons.

That's actually a very good point, Jimmy, and a practice I also see among many "online" Orthodox, but in real life, it doesn't seem to happen. In fact, in at least one case, the Eastern Orthodox Church has glorified a Saint who was in fact never in Communion with the Orthodox Church: St. Isaac the Syrian whose feast day in the Eastern Orthodox Church is January 28th, lived and died as a member of the Assyrian Church of the East (Nestorians). Thus he was never canonically in Communion with the Orthodox Church, yet his writings were so popular in Orthodox monastic circles, that he became venerated as a Saint of the Orthodox Church. What matters to the Orthodox Church is Orthodox doctrine, and St. Isaac the Syrian's writings were found to be entirely Orthodox.

Eldress Gabrielia was a Greek nun who spent much time in India before becoming a nun, and her biography "The Ascetic of Love" describes her tender understanding and appreciation of even Hindu piety. More importantly, she never sought to insult other's beliefs, even the Hindus. Once, a Protestant missionary complained to her that the "pagan" Hindus spent money on temple offerings rather than spend their money on their children, to which the Eldress replied that she could understand them because during the deprivations of the Nazi occupation of Greece, parents saw it as important to buy oil on the black market to keep the vigil lamps of the Churches lit because "man does not live on bread alone".  Another time, she was invited to a conference at which a certain revered guru was present, and as was the Hindu custom, the guru's feet were washed with milk and the milk offered to those present to drink. When she was offered the bowl of milk, she plunged her hands into it saying "this is how we do it in my country" so as not to cause offense.

A Christian does not offend people. Even St. Paul did not seek to offend the beliefs of the pagan Greeks when he preached to them from the Areopagus, he even praised them for their piety! (Acts 17:22)

No one has ever converted to Orthodoxy because they were insulted.
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« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2008, 07:26:41 PM »

I think it is amazing that many EO can't admit that a non-EO Christian was holy.  They have to say he was demon posessed.  I have heard similar ideas about Mother Teresa on this forum.  This hate only drives people away.

I read the same article you refer to but the fact is that just as St. Francis could have been led by demons so could St. Seraphim have.  Supposedly he was made so bright people couldn't look at him.  Using the same logic your beloved priest used, this is nothing other than the effects of demons.



Brother from the article that i read the holy orthodox saint was extreamly humble and allways recognized his sinfullness till the day he fell asleep in the lord ,,,never bragged about achieveing Holiness also never asked to suffer as the lord did ,,,never used mental images of the lord..The lord did it all for us what more can we do but accept .....
   the article mentioned francis was pridefull i believe when he allegedly recieved the wounds of christ that he achieved some perfected state  a acomplisment.of some kind...arrogant and pridefull not much humillity there ..i my self don't condemn him ,,i really don't know much about him...Doesn't the old testament mention that when a person is kind to animals God promises long life also........also francis had talking visions  allegedly of christ that gave him what he wanted and agreed with him and patted him on the back job well done...it's hard for me accept this person francis as a saint..i my self agree with the article that it was self induced.......... stasko/stanislav

If some body can bring that article up it would be nice....i need a refreshers course .........
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« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2008, 07:36:33 PM »

Gorbachev isn't Christian, as you can see here:



Wasn't it in the news that his grandmother or mom had him baptized as a baby... he just wasn't a practicing orthodox christian at that time ,,,with age comes wisdom plus the grave draws near...food for thought...stasko/stanislav
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« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2008, 10:14:20 PM »

I think it is amazing that many EO can't admit that a non-EO Christian was holy.  They have to say he was demon posessed.  I have heard similar ideas about Mother Teresa on this forum.  This hate only drives people away.

I read the same article you refer to but the fact is that just as St. Francis could have been led by demons so could St. Seraphim have.  Supposedly he was made so bright people couldn't look at him.  Using the same logic your beloved priest used, this is nothing other than the effects of demons.

That's a very good point, but I think the implication that Orthodox are skeptical of the sanctity of non-Orthodox because of contempt for non-Orthodox is amiss. While there are certainly some who do so out of a sense of superiority, there also those of us who do so out of caution.  We have numerous accounts of demons deceiving and tempting those within the Church; how much more susceptible, then, are those who are separated from the grace and nourishment of her sacraments.  Yes, God's grace may fall wherever he wills, even outside the Church, but the Enemy is also at work and we must take care that we not be deceived through one whom he has previously deceived.
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« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2008, 11:02:41 PM »

Hey OzGeorge,


A Christian should not offend people, but would Eldress Gabrielia have been in the wrong if she had refused to bow to Hindu deities as the Hindus do, even if it was expected? Where should Christians draw the line between being faithful to monotheism, and being faithful to Christ's command to love each other (i.e., not insult each other)?

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« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2008, 11:21:56 PM »

Why? So you and your internet guru can publicly deride that member of the clergy? 




No brother....But they are our  shepherds..  guardians of us there flock and to keep us from straying after delusions ,,it would be nice to hear their sound spiritual advice on this maybe......ps other than the ecumenicl patriarch,,or metropolitan zizolous there opinion im not interested in...there much to close to the vatican for me...But the opinion of his Holiness the patriarch of Holy Mother Russia.would be nice.....stasko/stanislav
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« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2008, 11:34:49 PM »

OK, this has now stopped being a "Christian News" thread and has become unrecognizable as anything (I can see three completely different tangents so far).
I'm moving it to Free For All Religious Topics so y'all can debate your little hearts out.
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« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2008, 12:34:36 AM »




Brother from the article that i read the holy orthodox saint was extreamly humble and allways recognized his sinfullness till the day he fell asleep in the lord ,,,never bragged about achieveing Holiness also never asked to suffer as the lord did ,,,never used mental images of the lord..The lord did it all for us what more can we do but accept .....
   the article mentioned francis was pridefull i believe when he allegedly recieved the wounds of christ that he achieved some perfected state  a acomplisment.of some kind...arrogant and pridefull not much humillity there ..i my self don't condemn him ,,i really don't know much about him...Doesn't the old testament mention that when a person is kind to animals God promises long life also........also francis had talking visions  allegedly of christ that gave him what he wanted and agreed with him and patted him on the back job well done...it's hard for me accept this person francis as a saint..i my self agree with the article that it was self induced.......... stasko/stanislav

If some body can bring that article up it would be nice....i need a refreshers course .........

The problem is that the article is based on this priests interpretation of events.  He has reinterpeted the events so that it sounds like St. Francis was seeking self glorification. 


That's a very good point, but I think the implication that Orthodox are skeptical of the sanctity of non-Orthodox because of contempt for non-Orthodox is amiss. While there are certainly some who do so out of a sense of superiority, there also those of us who do so out of caution.  We have numerous accounts of demons deceiving and tempting those within the Church; how much more susceptible, then, are those who are separated from the grace and nourishment of her sacraments.  Yes, God's grace may fall wherever he wills, even outside the Church, but the Enemy is also at work and we must take care that we not be deceived through one whom he has previously deceived.

I see what you are saying and it is fine if there is skepticism but the problem is when you automatically assume some kind of ill will or self absorption on the part of those men.  Isn't it a basic aspect of charity to assume honesty of a person unless there is some solid reason to say otherwise?  St. Francis had a great love for God, for his neighbor and for all creation.  Is it wrong to assume that this is probably true even though he wasn't Eastern Orthodox?

It seems that there are a lot of Orthodox with a superiority complex who look at western Christians as the worst thing on the planet.  It is almost like the fundamentalists who call the pope the anti Christ and Rome the whore of babylon.  They will interpret EO theology in a way that makes it as far as possible from being like Catholic theology.  Any slight difference, no matter how inconsequential, is interpreted as the greatest heresy.  Catholics must start using leavened bread, stop praying the Rosary, and etc. 

I have had a great respect for Orthodoxy and anyone who has read my posts knows that I have had my own problems with the west(mostly due to discussions with Orthodox)but this attitude causes my to question it.
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« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2008, 01:47:50 AM »

The problem is that the article is based on this priests interpretation of events.  He has reinterpeted the events so that it sounds like St. Francis was seeking self glorification. 


I see what you are saying and it is fine if there is skepticism but the problem is when you automatically assume some kind of ill will or self absorption on the part of those men.  Isn't it a basic aspect of charity to assume honesty of a person unless there is some solid reason to say otherwise?  St. Francis had a great love for God, for his neighbor and for all creation.  Is it wrong to assume that this is probably true even though he wasn't Eastern Orthodox?

It seems that there are a lot of Orthodox with a superiority complex who look at western Christians as the worst thing on the planet.  It is almost like the fundamentalists who call the pope the anti Christ and Rome the whore of babylon.  They will interpret EO theology in a way that makes it as far as possible from being like Catholic theology.  Any slight difference, no matter how inconsequential, is interpreted as the greatest heresy.  Catholics must start using leavened bread, stop praying the Rosary, and etc. 

I have had a great respect for Orthodoxy and anyone who has read my posts knows that I have had my own problems with the west(mostly due to discussions with Orthodox)but this attitude causes my to question it.



Brother not being disrespectful  to you ... Being a latin maronite catholic christian and as latin as it get's you see thru  latin lens how you were taught...we see thru eastern orthodox  lens thats why we question and look at things different...also we are very very wary of talking apparitions...like fatima... lourds and others....or  Frances visions they can't tell or teach us anything that we haven't once and for all recieved  from the holy apostles given to the holyfathers to teach lead and guide us to life eternal.....some of these apparitions preach first monthly fridays or saturdays for nine months as a greater mercy for guaranteed salvation and other things unknown to the holy fathers and displaced the greatest mercy shown to mankind  thats the day the lord has made pashca ...now you see why we are careful....if you ever see a talking apparition run from it like it was the devil ,,it probable is....stasko/stanislav
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« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2008, 01:54:02 AM »

The problem is that the article is based on this priests interpretation of events.  He has reinterpeted the events so that it sounds like St. Francis was seeking self glorification. 
Actually, the "article" I think stashko is referring to may actually actually be the book "The Arena" by Bishop Ignatius Brianchaninov (1807-1867).
In Chapter 11, p40, the Bishop writes:

"As an example of a book written in the state of delusion called opinion we cite the following:
'When Francis was caught up to heaven' says a writer of his life, 'God the Father, on seeing him, was for a moment in doubt as to whom to give the preference, to His Son by nature or to His son by grace- Francis'. What can be more frightful or madder than this blasphemy, what can be sadder than this delusion!"

What the Bishop is talking about is the book "The Life of St. Francis" from which he quotes as being delusional.
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« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2008, 05:43:28 AM »



Brother not being disrespectful  to you ... Being a latin maronite catholic christian and as latin as it get's you see thru  latin lens how you were taught...we see thru eastern orthodox  lens thats why we question and look at things different...also we are very very wary of talking apparitions...like fatima... lourds and others....or  Frances visions they can't tell or teach us anything that we haven't once and for all recieved  from the holy apostles given to the holyfathers to teach lead and guide us to life eternal.....some of these apparitions preach first monthly fridays or saturdays for nine months as a greater mercy for guaranteed salvation and other things unknown to the holy fathers and displaced the greatest mercy shown to mankind  thats the day the lord has made pashca ...now you see why we are careful....if you ever see a talking apparition run from it like it was the devil ,,it probable is....stasko/stanislav

Maronites aren't latin.  I am about as latin as you are.  Maronites are actually Syriac Christians. 
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« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2008, 11:18:19 AM »

 

Contrary to popular Papal Catholic belief Eastern Orthodox do not sit around studying and learning or worrying too much about the nuances of that church.  There are main tenants of the Roman Catholic faith that all checking it on their hospital admissions form must believe in regardless if your parish celebrates a Roman Missal or the Byzantine Rite or the Maronite rite (ok I know it's not a rite right).
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« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2008, 12:18:26 PM »

I thought we orthodox don't accept st. Francis as a saint ...

Bro, it is Roman Catholc Saint and Orthodox Church hasn't made any proclamation about it. In spite of some favorable assessments about him, there are also some less favorable.

As you could see Gorby was reported praying, with the description in details and he subsequently issued demanti of it.
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« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2008, 01:33:50 PM »

  Any slight difference, no matter how inconsequential, is interpreted as the greatest heresy.  Catholics must start using leavened bread, stop praying the Rosary, and etc. 

You make some good points in your post.  However, you should know that, for reasons I am not going to go into here (the issue has been discussed on OC.net before) one of the things that Orthodox would absolutely insist on before reunion with Rome could take place would be the adoption of the use of leavened bread in the Eucharist by the Latin Church.  I believe Western rite Orthodox use leavened hosts in their liturgy.   
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« Reply #22 on: March 27, 2008, 02:13:15 PM »

Maronites aren't latin.  I am about as latin as you are.  Maronites are actually Syriac Christians. 


Ok....Brother ive read here and other forums that said of all the oriental orthodox churches that the maronites are the most latinized ...has that changed now.....or in the process of changing back to its ancient traditions... a friend of mine is a non practicing maronite married to a non practicing Lebanese muslim woman ,,,they have two children one daughter one son also non religious......when i asked about his faith he doesn't know much about it..... are you considered part of the oriental orthodox churches  Huh?.....stasko/stanislav
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« Reply #23 on: March 27, 2008, 03:59:36 PM »

You make some good points in your post.  However, you should know that, for reasons I am not going to go into here (the issue has been discussed on OC.net before) one of the things that Orthodox would absolutely insist on before reunion with Rome could take place would be the adoption of the use of leavened bread in the Eucharist by the Latin Church.  I believe Western rite Orthodox use leavened hosts in their liturgy.   

It is an inconsequential matter.  It has nothing to do with actual doctrine.  It has to do with imagery that is used to show the faith.  Christ is the leaven of the new covenant therefore leavened bread is used.  But the Latins don't see things from the same perspective.  They approach the Sacrament from the perspective of fullfilling Christ's command to do this in remembrance of Him.  Since Christ used unleavened bread that is what the latins use.


Ok....Brother ive read here and other forums that said of all the oriental orthodox churches that the maronites are the most latinized ...has that changed now.....or in the process of changing back to its ancient traditions... a friend of mine is a non practicing maronite married to a non practicing Lebanese muslim woman ,,,they have two children one daughter one son also non religious......when i asked about his faith he doesn't know much about it..... are you considered part of the oriental orthodox churches  Huh?.....stasko/stanislav

I don't deny that the Maronites have been latinized to a large degree.  But the truth is that the Maronites do not speak of many of the distinctions and perspectives that the Latins do.  We do have our own liturgy and our own theological perspectives that come from a Syriac perspective.
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« Reply #24 on: March 27, 2008, 08:38:40 PM »

It is an inconsequential matter.  It has nothing to do with actual doctrine.  It has to do with imagery that is used to show the faith.  Christ is the leaven of the new covenant therefore leavened bread is used.  But the Latins don't see things from the same perspective.  They approach the Sacrament from the perspective of fullfilling Christ's command to do this in remembrance of Him.  Since Christ used unleavened bread that is what the latins use.

Please don't presume to dictate what is and what is not consequential.  It is of consequece to the Orthodox or else they would not feel so strongly about it.  And the strongest historical evidence to date (believed even by the majority of Catholic scholars) shows that the Gospel of John is correct about the time of the Passover and not the synoptic Gospels, so the meal that Christ last shared with his disciples would not have been a Passover meal, and leavened bread would have been used.  This has been discussed in other threads.  Search them out if you are interested.  I will say nothing more about the topic here.
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« Reply #25 on: March 28, 2008, 03:33:56 AM »

If some body can bring that article up it would be nice....i need a refreshers course .........
I don't have the article that you are asking for, but I have found another which is on the Ukrainian Orthodox Church website: "The Holy Man of Assisi. Although a Roman Catholic, rather than Orthodox, saint, Francis of Assisi is  one of those historical personages who is celebrated by one and all."
Please see:
http://www.unicorne.org/orthodoxy/articles/alex_roman/assisi.htm
 
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« Reply #26 on: March 28, 2008, 05:07:02 AM »

Please note that the website linked to by stanley123 does not belong to any orthodox jurisdiction. It is being published by three individuals (apparantly in Canada) of which one is a Roman Catholic priest, one an Orthodox priest and the last one an Orthodox Reader.
http://www.ukrainian-orthodoxy.org/aboutUs.htm
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« Reply #27 on: March 28, 2008, 02:16:40 PM »

Please note that the website linked to by stanley123 does not belong to any orthodox jurisdiction. It is being published by three individuals (apparantly in Canada) of which one is a Roman Catholic priest, one an Orthodox priest and the last one an Orthodox Reader.
http://www.ukrainian-orthodoxy.org/aboutUs.htm
That is interesting. It did sound like it might be a Byz. Catholic site, but as I checked out some of the links, and the faq, it looked like an Orthodox site.
Anyway, you say that it does have an Orthodox priest and reader on board.  Do you know who their bishop is?
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« Reply #28 on: March 28, 2008, 05:10:25 PM »

There is an article on the orthodoxinfo website which was originally printed in Synaxis: Orthodox Christian Theology in the 20th Century, Vol. 2, pp. 39-56. Authored by the now-reposed George Macris, who was a Priest in the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad in Portland, Oregon at the time of this writing. Synaxis is published by the New-Ostrog Monastery in Canada.

The article compares St. Francis of Assisi with St. Seraphim of Sarov, and explains the Orthodox concept of prelest or "spiritual delusion".

Here is a link to the article:
A Comparison: Francis of Assisi and St. Seraphim of Sarov
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« Reply #29 on: March 28, 2008, 05:32:05 PM »

There is an article on the orthodoxinfo website which was originally printed in Synaxis: Orthodox Christian Theology in the 20th Century, Vol. 2, pp. 39-56. Authored by the now-reposed George Macris, who was a Priest in the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad in Portland, Oregon at the time of this writing. Synaxis is published by the New-Ostrog Monastery in Canada.

The article compares St. Francis of Assisi with St. Seraphim of Sarov, and explains the Orthodox concept of prelest or "spiritual delusion".

Here is a link to the article:
A Comparison: Francis of Assisi and St. Seraphim of Sarov
Yes. This article you are giving here is a bit negative on St. Francis. The link that I referred to
http://www.unicorne.org/orthodoxy/articles/alex_roman/assisi.htm
is more positive on St. Francis. I thought it was a Ukrainian Orthodox site, but perhaps it does have some association with Byzantine Catholics? They say that they are an Orthodox Church and that they are in Eucharistic communion with the Patriarchate of Constantinople:
http://www.unicorne.org/orthodoxy/automne2004/canonical.htm
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« Reply #30 on: March 28, 2008, 05:46:31 PM »

They say that they are an Orthodox Church and that they are in Eucharistic communion with the Patriarchate of Constantinople
Actually, they don't say that. While the answer to the question mentions Ukrainian Orthodox Churches in Communion with the Ecumenical Patriarchate, the website does not claim to be in Communion with the EP. If you go to the bottom of the page and click the "home page" link, you will find a link on the home page to their new website, and if you click on that link you will be taken to the new home page which makes the following disclaimer:
Quote
This website intends to be a doorway into the treasury of Christian insights and achievements afforded by that Garden of the eternal Church of Christ, sown and nurtured, as we believe, by our Lord Himself which is called the Ukrainian Orthodox Church. 
Its title does not intend to imply any official connection with any Ukrainian Orthodox communion.  Indeed it has been enriched by folks who love this Garden, who find themselves in various Ukrainian Orthodox - as well as Ukrainian Catholic communities.


http://www.ukrainian-orthodoxy.org/

And if you click the "About Us" link, you will find that in fact, as RobertW said, one of the administrators of the website is a Catholic Priest.

I hope this makes it clear why we should all be very careful about what we find on the Internet. There are many wolves in sheep's clothing out there.
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« Reply #31 on: March 29, 2008, 01:25:33 AM »

Actually, they don't say that. While the answer to the question mentions Ukrainian Orthodox Churches in Communion with the Ecumenical Patriarchate, the website does not claim to be in Communion with the EP.
I was reading it differently. I see on the top of the page:
Ukrainian Orthodoxy.
Then I read:
A Brief Hostory of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church:
"In 1990, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada entered into eucharistic communion with the Patriarchate of Constantinople. This made it a duly recognized member of the Orthodox family which consists of four ancient Patriarchates (Constantinople, Jerusalem, Alexandria and Antioch) and over a dozen other autocephalous (self-headed) and autonomous Churches, some also headed by Patriarchs. The Primates of these Churches manifest their unity by commemorating each other during Liturgy and Divine Liturgy together on special solemn occasions.

The agreement with Constantinople that preceded the communion made it possible for Ukrainian Orthodox Canadians to retain their tradition of self-government while enjoying unity with world Orthodoxy and finding a place on inter-Church forums to speak for a Church that has been submerged for more than three hundred years as a part of the Church of Moscow which seems to be a continuation of the rapidly declining Empire. In 1995 the Canadian Church's sisters in the U.S.A., South America, Western Europe and Australia entered into communion with Constantinople by a similar agreement and a Permanent Conference of Ukrainian Orthodox Bishops outside Ukraine was formed."
I have to admit to being a bit confused here. Do you say that the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada is not an Orthodox Church as they claim it to be? they state that their team includes: Archpriest Ihor George Kutash [kutash@unicorne.org], priest of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada and professor of Eastern Christian theology and culture.
Do you say that they are not in communion with the Patriarch of Constantinople?


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« Reply #32 on: March 29, 2008, 08:47:20 AM »

I was reading it differently. I see on the top of the page:
Ukrainian Orthodoxy.
Then I read:
A Brief Hostory of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church:
"In 1990, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada entered into eucharistic communion with the Patriarchate of Constantinople. This made it a duly recognized member of the Orthodox family which consists of four ancient Patriarchates (Constantinople, Jerusalem, Alexandria and Antioch) and over a dozen other autocephalous (self-headed) and autonomous Churches, some also headed by Patriarchs. The Primates of these Churches manifest their unity by commemorating each other during Liturgy and Divine Liturgy together on special solemn occasions.

The agreement with Constantinople that preceded the communion made it possible for Ukrainian Orthodox Canadians to retain their tradition of self-government while enjoying unity with world Orthodoxy and finding a place on inter-Church forums to speak for a Church that has been submerged for more than three hundred years as a part of the Church of Moscow which seems to be a continuation of the rapidly declining Empire. In 1995 the Canadian Church's sisters in the U.S.A., South America, Western Europe and Australia entered into communion with Constantinople by a similar agreement and a Permanent Conference of Ukrainian Orthodox Bishops outside Ukraine was formed."
I have to admit to being a bit confused here. Do you say that the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada is not an Orthodox Church as they claim it to be? they state that their team includes: Archpriest Ihor George Kutash [kutash@unicorne.org], priest of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada and professor of Eastern Christian theology and culture.
Do you say that they are not in communion with the Patriarch of Constantinople?




Just because an Orthodox priest maintains a website doesn't mean everything on that website is Orthodox doctrine and teaching.  If you want to pretend that it is, then I'll follow suit and dig up all kinds of websites by Latin priests espousing views contrary to the Vatican's doctrine and teaching and promptly run around here claiming they're Rome's position.
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« Reply #33 on: March 29, 2008, 12:20:56 PM »

Do you say that they are not in communion with the Patriarch of Constantinople?
stanley,
Why do you not mention the other priest on the website team? You know, on the "about us" page I referred to and you obviously looked at:
Quote
Dr. Alexander Roman [alex.roman@unicorne.org], an erudite and prolific
member of the Ukrainian Catholic Church has contributed a large number of
articles which are on this site.
http://www.ukrainian-orthodoxy.org/aboutUs.htm

And the other guy is a Reader for pete's sake!
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« Reply #34 on: March 29, 2008, 12:36:57 PM »

I don't really want to enter this debate, but for what it's worth, I know Fr. Ihor Kutash personally.  He seems to be perfectly sound to me, whatever one might think of his collaboration with Catholics.
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« Reply #35 on: March 29, 2008, 07:51:17 PM »

stanley,
Why do you not mention the other priest on the website team?
True. But I didn't know he is a priest. But look over their faq. My impression is that they are more Orthodox than Catholic?
Well, then who are they and who do they represent? They say that they are Ukrainian Orthodox?
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« Reply #36 on: March 29, 2008, 07:56:44 PM »

Just because an Orthodox priest maintains a website doesn't mean everything on that website is Orthodox doctrine and teaching.  If you want to pretend that it is, then I'll follow suit and dig up all kinds of websites by Latin priests espousing views contrary to the Vatican's doctrine and teaching and promptly run around here claiming they're Rome's position.
I don't see where you get that I am pretending anything? I simply came across a favorable article on St. Francis, and now everyone wants to blow this whole thing way up out of proportion? I don't understand the strong opposition to a kind word in favor of St. Francis.
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« Reply #37 on: March 29, 2008, 08:53:33 PM »

I don't see where you get that I am pretending anything? I simply came across a favorable article on St. Francis, and now everyone wants to blow this whole thing way up out of proportion? I don't understand the strong opposition to a kind word in favor of St. Francis.

It's your portrayal of that site as having some sort of official imprimatur rather than merely being the personal opinion of those involved that's the problem.
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« Reply #38 on: March 29, 2008, 09:34:41 PM »

It's your portrayal of that site as having some sort of official imprimatur rather than merely being the personal opinion of those involved that's the problem.
No. This is not really true. Here's what I wrote above:
“I thought it was a Ukrainian Orthodox site, but perhaps it does have some association with Byzantine Catholics?”
“It did sound like it might be a Byz. Catholic site, but as I checked out some of the links, and the faq, it looked like an Orthodox site.”

The article appearing on the site was a favorable article on St. Francis and it was written by a Greek Catholic, Dr. Roman, who contributes to the site.


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« Reply #39 on: April 01, 2008, 10:44:48 AM »

My impression is that they are more Orthodox than Catholic?

I not really sure what that means.

Religion isn't one dimensional, as in the less Catholic something is the more Orthodox it is, or vice versa.

The article appearing on the site was a favorable article on St. Francis and it was written by a Greek Catholic, Dr. Roman, who contributes to the site.

That, to me, seems the important point here. There's nothing wrong, of course, with debating the merits of unicorne.org from an Orthodox point of view, but I don't think it's so relevant.

As for the article by Dr. Alex Roman (who, as you pointed out, is Greek Catholic), I for one liked it; but I'd add that a grain of salt needs to be applied to the opening sentence "Although a Roman Catholic, rather than Orthodox, saint, Francis of Assisi is one of those historical personages who is celebrated by one and all." Clearly, St. Francis is not celebrated literally by all. But he is celebrated by many Orthodox, which I think is the main point of the article. (Also I note that he says "What is interesting about Francis from an Eastern Church perspective is that even though the Roman Church had fallen away after the Schism of AD 1054 ... ", an odd thing for a Catholic author to write.)

Blessings,
Peter.
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« Reply #40 on: April 01, 2008, 10:46:46 AM »

Just because an Orthodox priest maintains a website doesn't mean everything on that website is Orthodox doctrine and teaching.  If you want to pretend that it is, then I'll follow suit and dig up all kinds of websites by Latin priests espousing views contrary to the Vatican's doctrine and teaching and promptly run around here claiming they're Rome's position.

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« Reply #41 on: April 01, 2008, 10:47:49 AM »



LOL!  That smiley isn't French, by any chance, is he? Tongue
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« Reply #42 on: April 01, 2008, 11:41:24 AM »

Glad you liked it. It's one of a list of smilies I've been waiting to use.
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« Reply #43 on: April 02, 2008, 02:01:46 PM »

I not really sure what that means.

Religion isn't one dimensional, as in the less Catholic something is the more Orthodox it is, or vice versa.

That, to me, seems the important point here. There's nothing wrong, of course, with debating the merits of unicorne.org from an Orthodox point of view, but I don't think it's so relevant.

As for the article by Dr. Alex Roman (who, as you pointed out, is Greek Catholic), I for one liked it; but I'd add that a grain of salt needs to be applied to the opening sentence "Although a Roman Catholic, rather than Orthodox, saint, Francis of Assisi is one of those historical personages who is celebrated by one and all." Clearly, St. Francis is not celebrated literally by all. But he is celebrated by many Orthodox, which I think is the main point of the article. (Also I note that he says "What is interesting about Francis from an Eastern Church perspective is that even though the Roman Church had fallen away after the Schism of AD 1054 ... ", an odd thing for a Catholic author to write.)

Blessings,
Peter.

Maybe the author is trying to present it from an Orthodox perspective and that is why he speaks of the Roman Church falling into schism.  Maybe he knows many Orthodox who find St. Francis to be a great saint although he was in communion with Rome after it fell into schism.
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