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Author Topic: Ukrainian Catholic Bishop Communes Anglican Theologian  (Read 2471 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: March 31, 2008, 11:27:06 PM »

http://timescolumns.typepad.com/gledhill/2008/03/radical-orthodo.html

Oh my.
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« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2008, 09:59:29 AM »

Hmm...any comments from our readers regarding these two paragraphs from the article?

Quote

On the question of receiving Catholic communion, Professor Milbank explained to me: 'Normally if I am at a Catholic event abroad I do not partake in communion unless I am asked to do so. But in this case they asked me to.'
....

But even more interestingly, there is a growing suspicion that, whisper it quietly, the Pope might not mind very much. For example, there was not a murmur from Rome at the intercommunion free-for-all at the funeral of Brother Roger of Taize, himself a one-time Protestant whose final denominational resting place was a little hazy but was probably RC. Tracey Rowland, in an interview about her book on the Pope and post-Vatican II theology, drew parallels between much of Benedict XVI's thinking and the ideas of Radical Orthodoxy.

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« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2008, 10:03:37 AM »

 Shocked

Good gravy.  What were they thinking?
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« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2008, 11:08:05 AM »

There has been other turmoil in Ukraine which may be related including the consecration of four bishops without synodal approval

http://blog.ancient-future.net/2008/03/28/four-ukrainian-bishops-consecrated-without-mandate-of-rome-or-major-archbishop/

and the excommunication of a traditionalist priest

http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=54919
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« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2008, 12:16:09 PM »

I'd take Ruth Gledhill's reporting with two grains of salt. This is the reporter who claimed the Pope was about to say Luther was right in the end (which would have been impossible).

There's the possibility that Bishop Hlib didn't know who he was and priests in that communion usually don't interrogate people at Communion, giving all the benefit of the doubt.

And:

Quote
Ruth, I think you are incorrect in stating that as an Anglican John Millbank may not receive communion in a [Roman or Ukrainian] Catholic church. It depends where he is. If he is in a place where there is no Anglican church and he believes what the [Roman and Ukrainian] Catholic Church teaches about the eucharist then he may receive. Where Tony Blair got into trouble with Cardinal Hume was that he did it in England.

The right-wing schisms are fascinating: Fr Basil Kovpak thinks all change in his church from the 1940s or so is wrong so he retains the self-latinisations the Popes (including Pius X) never wanted for his church.

Interestingly they still worship in Slavonic and not in Ukrainian like the official Ukrainian Catholic Church.

They believe their mission in part is to convert the Orthodox but recently some members of an affiliated religious order (the Transalpine Redemptorists allied with the Lefebvrist Society of St Pius X), because they were shopping for Slavonic liturgical books, had a most cordial meeting with the Orthodox Bishop of L'vov, Augustine.

These two sides don't pretend to be in communion but have mirroring traditionalist worldviews and respect each other.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2008, 12:25:58 PM by The young fogey » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2008, 01:21:19 PM »

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There's the possibility that Bishop Hlib didn't know who he was and priests in that communion usually don't interrogate people at Communion, giving all the benefit of the doubt.

Well that in and of itself would be a problem....  The other possibility is he was tricked by somebody, again not really a good thing.

However, since Bishop Hlib gave the introduction at the seminar about "Returns to a Radical Orthodoxy"

http://www.ecumenicalstudies.org.ua/eng/research/conferences.roundtables/radical.orthodoxy/

I'm assuming he knew who Mr. Milbank was and what his standing was, so I think it's a moot point.  Hopefully he and the other officials at the Catholic University of Lviv are also aware of what the "radical orthodoxy" people stand for.

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/week707/commentary.html

At first I thought the charges of the recently consecrated Basilian bishops were just standard trad bluster, but I actually know think there's something to them.

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« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2008, 05:15:30 PM »

Then it either Bishop Hlib broke his church's rule on purpose, and it's up to his metropolitan to do something, or see the quotation in my earlier post: a loophole in Ukrainian Catholic rules that might allow this.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2008, 05:16:48 PM by The young fogey » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2008, 05:32:17 PM »

As far as the communion part goes, the other issue is the conference.  The charges of modernism among other things made by the recently consecrated Basilians along with members of the SSJK start to make more sense in light of all of this.
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« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2008, 08:08:30 PM »

I'm not surprised by this action at all.  Catholicism allows us (the Orthodox) to commune in their churches, even though we are clearly schismatic and slightly heretical by their standards.  Why shouldn't other perceived heretics/schismatics receive a similar reception?  One flawed principle leads to growing innovation.   
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« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2008, 08:12:28 PM »

One flawed principle leads to growing innovation.

Well said.
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« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2008, 10:59:05 PM »

There has been other turmoil in Ukraine which may be related including the consecration of four bishops without synodal approval

http://blog.ancient-future.net/2008/03/28/four-ukrainian-bishops-consecrated-without-mandate-of-rome-or-major-archbishop/

and the excommunication of a traditionalist priest

http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=54919

I understand these people are Lefeuvrites. Cardinal Lubomyr Huzar, the head of the Ukrainian Eastern Rite Catholic Church, officially condemned them.
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« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2008, 12:13:21 AM »

Correct. BTW it's Lefebvrites - in French the b is silent here.
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« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2008, 04:30:08 PM »

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Although the Ukrainian Catholics are formally Catholic, they use the Orthodox 'Divine Liturgy' of St John Chrysostom and much of their Canon Law resembles that of the Orthodox.

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« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2008, 05:57:54 PM »

Im just curious ,,,since the eastern catholic Bishop is out side of orthodoxy isn't he considered amongst the lay,
and not a Bishop as far as orthodoxy is concerned....im i right or wrong on this.....Huh? and once that is if he reunites with orthodoxy his ordination is accepted then and only then......or is there different thoughts on this in orthodoxy....stanislav
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« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2008, 09:05:13 PM »

Im just curious ,,,since the eastern catholic Bishop is out side of orthodoxy isn't he considered amongst the lay, and not a Bishop as far as orthodoxy is concerned....im i right or wrong on this.....Huh? and once that is if he reunites with orthodoxy his ordination is accepted then and only then......or is there different thoughts on this in orthodoxy....stanislav

Here goes...

There is no doctrine either way on the grace of ordination outside of Orthodoxy.

There's a range of Orthodox opinion on the matter. Some have a view that mirrors Rome's of the Orthodox - 'such are bishops etc. only out of communion with us'; others see such clergy as laity.

I prefer to see the lack of defined doctrine on the matter as the humility of Orthodox bishops: they don't claim to be able to rule on something outside their church. Just like my take on venerating 'the other side's' post-schism saints: the bishops don't claim the power to rule on the holiness of people outside Orthodoxy so such saints can't be venerated in church but privately you may venerate anyone.

You're on the right track in that as long as Ukrainian Catholic bishops are outside of Orthodoxy, their orders aren't recognised in themselves.

The ways of receiving clergy and laity into Orthodoxy vary from baptism and ordination anew to a common approach for clergy in groups retaining a claim to apostolic succession and historically related to the Orthodox as the Ukrainian Catholics are. Often such are received into the ranks of the Orthodox clergy simply by a vesting ceremony.

As you put it in your question, if he reunites with Orthodoxy his ordination is accepted then and only then.

P.S. Ukrainian Catholic canon law is essentially Roman Catholic canon law except in the Ukraine they may ordain married men.
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« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2008, 11:45:46 PM »

Thank you Brother on your reply...it clears up the confusion i had about it......now about the roman catholic church does this also apply or is this looked at in a different light.....stanislav
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« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2008, 07:36:25 AM »

Everything I wrote earlier applies to Roman Catholics as they and Ukrainian Catholics are parts of the same church but, if I recall correctly, in practice because the Ukrainian Catholics are directly related to/descended from the Orthodox (the same rite for example) it's been commoner to accept convert clergy from them in their orders by vesting.
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« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2008, 05:23:34 PM »

Everything I wrote earlier applies to Roman Catholics as they and Ukrainian Catholics are parts of the same church but, if I recall correctly, in practice because the Ukrainian Catholics are directly related to/descended from the Orthodox (the same rite for example) it's been commoner to accept convert clergy from them in their orders by vesting.

Anyone interested in learning more about this subject, feel free to browse the forums here as there is some enlightening conversation blossoming on this very issue.
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