OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 25, 2014, 09:00:21 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: The Church and Salvation  (Read 2190 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
sohma_hatori
Earthbending Novice
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church
Posts: 526


The Blind Bandit


« on: March 25, 2008, 09:50:36 PM »

Greetings everyone..

Some "Roman Catholics", have stated that the Vatican II has apotasized the Church from truth because the dogmas of Vatican II no longaer make the Catholic Church as the sole ark of salvation. Also that Pope John Paul II was an "antipope" because he preaches that there IS salvation outside of the Church. That even those who are NOT Catholic can still receive Salvation. According to them, this is heresy to the highest level.

Just searched in youtube a set of Videos known as, "Why John Paul II Cannot be the Pope part 1-10".. The pope's openess to the Orthodox Church was also criticized..

Is salvation really exclusive for members of the Church only? The video indirectly states that Orthodox Christians are heretics too!! Its because they also say that people outside the Catholic Church are heretics.  I know that a heretic will go to hell, but will a muslim who has never heard of Christ go to hell AUTOMATICALLY? Will a buddhist, devout to his faith, and loving to his fellowmen not attain salvation but will again AUTOMATICALLY go to hell??  Huh  Shocked

Logged

""Pride is not the opposite of shame, but it's source. True humility is the only antidote to shame.""
— Iroh- Avatar:The Last Airbender
GabrieltheCelt
Hillbilly Extraordinaire
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,988


Chasin' down a Hoodoo...


« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2008, 10:27:27 PM »

Greetings everyone..

Some "Roman Catholics", have stated that the Vatican II has apotasized the Church from truth because the dogmas of Vatican II no longaer make the Catholic Church as the sole ark of salvation. Also that Pope John Paul II was an "antipope" because he preaches that there IS salvation outside of the Church. That even those who are NOT Catholic can still receive Salvation. According to them, this is heresy to the highest level.

Just searched in youtube a set of Videos known as, "Why John Paul II Cannot be the Pope part 1-10".. The pope's openess to the Orthodox Church was also criticized..

Is salvation really exclusive for members of the Church only? The video indirectly states that Orthodox Christians are heretics too!! Its because they also say that people outside the Catholic Church are heretics.  I know that a heretic will go to hell, but will a muslim who has never heard of Christ go to hell AUTOMATICALLY? Will a buddhist, devout to his faith, and loving to his fellowmen not attain salvation but will again AUTOMATICALLY go to hell??  Huh  Shocked


I don't think an Orthodox Christian should say who will or will not make it to Heaven.  That is a judgement reserved for Christ alone.  This is not to say, though, that it doesn't matter what religion one follows for this is a grave matter to be sure.  Christ taught us that He is the Truth, the Way, and the Life and that no man comes to the Father except through Him.  But this is His decision to make and not ours.

In Christ,

Gabriel 
Logged

"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying
prodromas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Under the Green Pope
Posts: 1,239

Greek Orthodox


« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2008, 10:48:38 PM »

Greetings everyone..

Some "Roman Catholics", have stated that the Vatican II has apotasized the Church from truth because the dogmas of Vatican II no longaer make the Catholic Church as the sole ark of salvation. Also that Pope John Paul II was an "antipope" because he preaches that there IS salvation outside of the Church. That even those who are NOT Catholic can still receive Salvation. According to them, this is heresy to the highest level.

Just searched in youtube a set of Videos known as, "Why John Paul II Cannot be the Pope part 1-10".. The pope's openess to the Orthodox Church was also criticized..

Is salvation really exclusive for members of the Church only? The video indirectly states that Orthodox Christians are heretics too!! Its because they also say that people outside the Catholic Church are heretics.  I know that a heretic will go to hell, but will a muslim who has never heard of Christ go to hell AUTOMATICALLY? Will a buddhist, devout to his faith, and loving to his fellowmen not attain salvation but will again AUTOMATICALLY go to hell??  Huh  Shocked



I will just echo Gabriel's sentiments that judgment is for God alone so we cannot say who goes where. Also just as a pedantic muslims will have definitely heard of Jesus because he is a prophet in their religion.
Logged

The sins I don't commit are largely due to the weakness of my limbs.

1915-1923 Հայոց Ցեղասպանութիւն ,never again,
ܩܛܠܐ ܕܥܡܐ ܐܬܘܪܝܐ 1920-1914, never again,
השואה  1933-1945, never again,
(1914-1923) Ελληνική Γενοκτονία, never again
serb1389
Lord, remember me when you come into your Kingdom!
Global Moderator
Merarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of San Francisco
Posts: 8,404


Michał Kalina's biggest fan

FrNPantic
WWW
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2008, 11:10:40 PM »

Also, this topic has been discussed basically at nauseum before, so some searching might be helpful.  The classic model and antithesis is St. Cyprian of Carthage vs. St. Augustine

These might be helpful (or not...i didn't really read through them) 

[Upon further thought, I decided that my link was not very helpful, but rather my statements below would be better than providing a random link - hence the edit]

If you do a search of the word "cyprian" you will get an assortment of topics, which may or may not help you. 

If you search the word "salvation" you might get things more helpful, but there will also be A LOT MORE topics. 

Good hunting!  The more you read the bigger the picture you will get.  Which is always helpful. 
« Last Edit: March 25, 2008, 11:11:56 PM by serb1389 » Logged

I got nothing.
I forgot the maps
March 27th and May 30th 2010 were my Ordination dates, please forgive everything before that
Sophie
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 217


« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2008, 06:18:37 AM »

It does remind me of your other post on "Faith and Salvation". You could check those replies, some apply to this post too. Passages in the Gospel of Luke and the Epistle to Romans mention relevant points.

Is salvation really exclusive for members of the Church only? The video indirectly states that Orthodox Christians are heretics too!! Its because they also say that people outside the Catholic Church are heretics.  I know that a heretic will go to hell, but will a muslim who has never heard of Christ go to hell AUTOMATICALLY? Will a buddhist, devout to his faith, and loving to his fellowmen not attain salvation but will again AUTOMATICALLY go to hell??  Huh  Shocked



I agree with the above posters. We do not know who will go to Hell and how will not. A "heretic" could be a most earnest and faithful, although misguided Christian, and the Orthodox author of this post here, a most lazy and lukewarm worshipper. You can look up posts on "faith and works" as well.

Also, may I ask why you would stick with one of the more extreme views of some Catholics? It is not representative of the whole of the Catholic Church as I understand from my experience of living in a traditionally Catholic country.
Logged

"Thoughts are like airplanes flying in the air. If you ignore them, there is no problem. If you pay attention to them, you create an airport inside your head and permit them to land!" (Priestmonk Christodoulos Aggeloglou, Elder Paisios of the Holy Mountain Mount Athos, Greece, 1998,pp. 29-30, 48)
Entscheidungsproblem
Formerly Friul & Nebelpfade
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Machine God
Posts: 4,495



WWW
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2008, 09:37:02 AM »

Also, may I ask why you would stick with one of the more extreme views of some Catholics? It is not representative of the whole of the Catholic Church as I understand from my experience of living in a traditionally Catholic country.

Even in modern, conservative traditional communities, Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus is rarely seen as the be all and end all.  When I was a member of traditional communities, they tended to teach that the RCC with the Truth, while we cannot marginalise the mercy of Christ.  Sedevacantists and Conclavists are the groups that still tend to adhere to the 'outside the Church there is no salvation'.  And especially with them, their definition of "Church" is extremely limited.
Logged

As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.
-- Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,150



« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2008, 11:29:53 AM »

Dear sohma,

Serb1389 makes a good point about previous discussions of the topic.

I would add that -- supposing for the sake of argument that there is sufficient reason to have another discussion -- then it would probably be best to have one thread for each topic you want to discuss. In this case, you could start one thread on the question of salvation outside the Church, and another thread on people who call themselves Roman Catholics but claim that JPII wasn't a real pope.

-Peter.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2008, 01:13:42 PM »

Even in modern, conservative traditional communities, Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus is rarely seen as the be all and end all.  When I was a member of traditional communities, they tended to teach that the RCC with the Truth, while we cannot marginalise the mercy of Christ.  Sedevacantists and Conclavists are the groups that still tend to adhere to the 'outside the Church there is no salvation'.  And especially with them, their definition of "Church" is extremely limited.

Right, it's often called Feeneyism, after the Boston priest, Leonard Feeney, who vigorously and disobediently promoted this view. The Society of Jesus expelled him in 1949, and in 1953 he was excommunicated (he was later reconciled to the Roman Catholic Church, and the traditionalist community he founded, the St. Benedict Center, has returned from schism; BTW, they are sponsoring a traditional Mass training seminar this weekend for priests and altar servers in the dioceses of Boston and Worcester).

The groups promoting the literalist interpretation of this view and condemning the alternative as "heresy" are schismatic and do not merit the name "Catholic."

Once again, editorial changes needed to be made to accurately identify the Church intended by the poster. As originally written, the post implied that Leonard Feeney had entered Holy Orthodoxy.

+Fr Chris
Admin
« Last Edit: March 26, 2008, 01:29:42 PM by FrChris » Logged
The Iambic Pen
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic - Church of Old Rome
Jurisdiction: Latin Rite
Posts: 123



« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2008, 07:48:45 PM »

Somehow I wandered onto a sedevacantist website the other day, and they had an article in which the author attacked the Orthodox for not submitting to papal authority.  Of course, the author was also quick to point out that the Catholic Church does not currently have a pope.  I thought it was a bit funny, myself.

I also find it interesting that these sedevacantist groups, who are out of communion with the Catholic Church, also tend to hold to the strictest interpretations of extra ecclesium nulla salus.  Of course, I suppose they would say they are in the Church and the "modernists" in the "conciliar Church" are not.
Logged
lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2008, 12:15:58 PM »

I would add that not all of the nutters are sedevacantists---some are "conclavists" (meaning that they have gotten together and elected a new "pope" to fill the empty chair). For example, there's "Pope" Michael I in Kansas (hat tip to Youngfogey):



At his election:

The exciting moment when the white smoke rose into the air:

Journalists having an audience with "His Holiness" at his apostolic palace:

Logged
Riddikulus
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,788



« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2008, 01:20:32 AM »

^^ He reminds me a bit of Prince Edmund Plantagenet of "Blackadder" fame. This, I am aware, has nothing to do with the topic. Grin
« Last Edit: April 01, 2008, 01:25:43 AM by Riddikulus » Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
Entscheidungsproblem
Formerly Friul & Nebelpfade
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Machine God
Posts: 4,495



WWW
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2008, 09:12:11 AM »

Of the 'major' conclavists, doesn't he have the most followers (I remember reading that somewhere) with a whole 40-something?   laugh
Logged

As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.
-- Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS
username!
Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,068



« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2008, 04:54:18 PM »

Of the 'major' conclavists, doesn't he have the most followers (I remember reading that somewhere) with a whole 40-something?   laugh

I don't know you can't tell from his website.  I think most of them are his family, and I think he may be married.
His one rant says, "Is the Pope moving."  Then it goes on to say he wasn't going to move to Colorado, rather the faithful were moving to Kansas and that it is a nice family with kids.  I gather the kids and "faithful" are his kids and wife.  His own dad was among the 6 that "elected" him. 
Three guys in a shed playing church.
Logged

Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.078 seconds with 42 queries.