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Author Topic: religion, culture, biology and parental roles  (Read 22291 times) Average Rating: 0
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Quinault
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What about frogs? I like frogs!


« Reply #45 on: April 07, 2008, 10:50:41 PM »

laugh

Mr. Y was homeschooled until 16 when he graduated and went on to college.  I'd say he has some experience in home school.

Oh! So he is bitter about being homeschooled, that explains it Cheesy

And Gic, well, he has no need to have an excuse......He is afterall Gic-devils advocate extraordinaire.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2008, 10:59:45 PM by Quinault » Logged
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« Reply #46 on: April 07, 2008, 11:32:44 PM »

But as a bare minimum, you should be able to provide the same level of education that is expected of a public school teacher.

While you set us straight, even stupid people are doing a better job educating their children than better educated, better qualified teachers.  Actually, more like WAY better.

"Poorly educated parents who choose to teach their children at home produce better academic results for their children than public schools do. One study we reviewed found that students taught at home by mothers who never finished high school scored a full 55 percentage points higher than public school students from families with comparable education levels."

"The research shows that the level of education of a child's parents, gender of the child, and income of family has less to do with a child's academic achievement than it does in public schools."

"Research shows that almost 25 per cent of home schooled students in the United States perform one or more grades above their age-level peers in public and private schools. Grades 1 to 4 home school students perform one grade level higher than their public- and private-school peers. By Grade 8, the average home schooled student performs four grade levels above the national average."

From this 2007 study, http://www.marketwire.com/mw/release.do?id=777310
« Last Edit: April 07, 2008, 11:43:19 PM by livefreeordie » Logged
Quinault
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« Reply #47 on: April 07, 2008, 11:46:58 PM »

My six year old (kindergarten age for our area because of her birthday) reads at a third grade level. There is absolutely NO WAY that she would be able to do so if she were in a public school. She likely would have been bored with the material, slacked off and labeled "below average" because no one would have actually tried to give her more challenging reading material. This is precisely what happened to me.

What kindergarten teacher hands their student third grade level books?
« Last Edit: April 07, 2008, 11:49:54 PM by Quinault » Logged
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« Reply #48 on: April 07, 2008, 11:49:13 PM »

My six year old reads at a third grade level.

Awesome!! Good work to the both of you!
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« Reply #49 on: April 07, 2008, 11:52:36 PM »

Awesome!! Good work to the both of you!

I was shocked myself. I ordered my curriculum with 2nd grade readers only to find that they were too easy! I knew she was a bit ahead of the curve, but WOAH! All this from "The ordinary parents guide to teaching reading." We only made it a third of the way thru before I bought the readers. I will be picking up again on the lessons soon. For now she is devouring every book in the house she can get her little hands on.
http://www.peacehillpress.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=71
« Last Edit: April 08, 2008, 12:03:16 AM by Quinault » Logged
Quinault
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« Reply #50 on: April 07, 2008, 11:58:54 PM »

Here is my problem with public schools; grade classification.

My daughter reads at a third grade level, GREAT! And she is advanced in other areas also. But she isn't consistantly grade-able. She has skills that are all over the spectrum. So putting her in a "gifted" class wouldn't be right since in some areas she is on grade level. And socially she couldn't be moved up because she isn't EMOTIONALLY ready for a 2-3 grade social life.  Add all that in with her sensory processing disorder and the only option I really have is to homeschool. So when asked what grade she is she looks at me quizically and I say; "Kindergarten/First grade-ish since we homeschool."
« Last Edit: April 08, 2008, 12:04:44 AM by Quinault » Logged
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« Reply #51 on: April 08, 2008, 12:09:58 AM »

While you set us straight, even stupid people are doing a better job educating their children than better educated, better qualified teachers.  Actually, more like WAY better.

"Poorly educated parents who choose to teach their children at home produce better academic results for their children than public schools do. One study we reviewed found that students taught at home by mothers who never finished high school scored a full 55 percentage points higher than public school students from families with comparable education levels."

"The research shows that the level of education of a child's parents, gender of the child, and income of family has less to do with a child's academic achievement than it does in public schools."

"Research shows that almost 25 per cent of home schooled students in the United States perform one or more grades above their age-level peers in public and private schools. Grades 1 to 4 home school students perform one grade level higher than their public- and private-school peers. By Grade 8, the average home schooled student performs four grade levels above the national average."

Does your research include psychological profiles of these same kids when adults?

Of course, the data really isn't meaningful since it doesn't take into account level of parental involvement for those in public schools, it fails to weight according to rural or urban area, it considers different parts of the country comprable, and fails to take into account the genetic factor of relative intelligence. I'd be more interested in seeing how children of children of comprable IQ's, with highly involved parents of comprable IQ's, from the same region compare. It would be a bit more meaningful. But then, the significance also depends on the test in question...I place far more value in the results of AP tests to measure general academic achievement than state standards.

But even then, grades do not measure social skill and abilities in interpersonal interaction which are just as important to success. And while I am sure there are numerous exceptions, most people around here homeschool inorder that they can indoctrinate their children into their system of belief, which is extremly unhealthy from a psychological perspective.
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« Reply #52 on: April 08, 2008, 12:12:35 AM »

Could you qualify your statements anymore GiC? You flip flop more than the all the presidental nominees combined! You remind me of my 6 year old. If I tell her something she has to find SOME WAY to disagree merely on principle.
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« Reply #53 on: April 08, 2008, 12:28:38 AM »

Could you qualify your statements anymore GiC? You flip flop more than the all the presidental nominees combined! You remind me of my 6 year old. If I tell her something she has to find SOME WAY to disagree merely on principle.

You want me to be blunt? Fine.

Point A: The research presented has too many gaps in it to be useful.

Point B: Most people who homeschool arn't psychologically fit to be parents, many should be committed, they certainly shouldn't be given free reign to indoctrinate their offspring.

Pretty much, all I've been saying the whole time, along with the fact that you shouldn't be teaching something you're not qualified in. There are certainly problems with our education system, but homeschooling creates more than it eliminates.
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Quinault
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« Reply #54 on: April 08, 2008, 12:34:13 AM »

But according to you most children shouldn't exist since their IQ's are too low. So the poor parenting should be applauded by you. Lower educations and poor parenting drastically shortens lifespans. And according to you we should stop having children anyway. So your viewpoints are pretty much worthless on this topic.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2008, 12:40:29 AM by Quinault » Logged
livefreeordie
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« Reply #55 on: April 08, 2008, 12:34:45 AM »

Does your research include psychological profiles of these same kids when adults?

Wasn't my research, it was done by The Fraser Institute which specializes in studying market solutions for public policy problems. A group of luddite PHDs I'm sure! Wink

By the way, here's what MIT thinks about homeschoolers.

http://www.mitadmissions.org/topics/apply/homeschooled_applicants_helpful_tips/homeschooled_applicants.shtml

And here's some more from the illiterate rag, The Wall Street Journal. http://www.oakmeadow.com/resources/articles/WSJArticle.htm

And lets not forget to let Stanford get a word in about socialization and these poor psychology unhealthy, indoctrinated homeschool children, "Home-schoolers bring certain skills -- motivation, curiosity, the capacity to be responsible for their education -- that high schools don't induce very well," says Jon Reider, Stanford's senior associate director of admissions

And I've yet to find a study where homeschoolers don't do academically better, nor any studies where homeschoolers in general have psychological problems.  Your one year experience does not make a study. And show me ANY study that homeschooling creates more problems than it eliminates.

I agree though homeschooling isn't for everyone, nor should be expected by everyone.  I've known bad homeschoolers, but they either stop homeschooling or they get their kids taken away and these instances are rare. But if you have the means, time and desire your kids will do better regardless of your educational level.  That being said, I speak in public schools and I help teachers learn to deal with troubled youth.  If parents who can't homeschool their kids would get more involved at school, schools would be better.  I'm afraid they're just turning into baby sitters.

You're even more enjoyable when you are blunt GIC!!! Wink
« Last Edit: April 08, 2008, 12:42:34 AM by livefreeordie » Logged
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« Reply #56 on: April 08, 2008, 12:59:45 AM »

And more, this extensive study found that "home school children outperform their public school peers on several national standardized exams), including the Stanford Achievement Test and the Iowa Tests of Basic Skills, and at nearly all grade levels (Rakestraw 1987, Frost 1987, Wanes 1990, Ray 1990, Rudner 1999)."

Then they talked about a study that seemed to be examining whether homeschoolers were cooking the books, i.e. inflating grades, concentrating too much on testing, etc. and compared the first year college performance of kids with similiar GPAs, SAT scores, etc between homeschooled children and others.  I.e. they examined how a homeschooler with a 3.8 GPA and a 1210 SAT did his first year compared with someone in public schools with the same scores.  You would also think that this would be an indicator of how a homeschool kid was socially prepared for school.  If he wasn't mentally ready, you'd think his grades would suffer.  What the study found was that across all observable date, a home school kid with a 3.8 and 1210 Sat did just as well as the public school student.  Combine that with the fact that homeschool children test better, it's hard to argue, except if you had some bitter homeschool experience, that the data shows anything but that homeschooling is a good thing.

Furthermore, the study found that when you just compared homeschoolers as a group with public students as a group, homeschoolers scored better their first year in the college.  Which you would expect as homeschoolers test higher than other incoming students.

I encourage everyone to check it out.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3955/is_200404/ai_n9383889
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« Reply #57 on: April 08, 2008, 01:22:39 AM »

And I've yet to find a study where homeschoolers don't do academically better, nor any studies where homeschoolers in general have psychological problems.  Your one year experience does not make a study. And show me ANY study that homeschooling creates more problems than it eliminates.

Perhaps not, but I've had rather substantial contact wth that particular community in this area. Perhaps it's only here, but most tend to be religious nutcases who fail to integrate into general society, have less than a college education, and have zero grasp or understanding of the sciences beyond the most rudimentary levels. Perhaps this area is an anomoly, but doing a few quick google searches, I'd seriously doubt it.

Quote
I agree though homeschooling isn't for everyone, nor should be expected by everyone.  I've known bad homeschoolers, but they either stop homeschooling or they get their kids taken away and these instances are rare. But if you have the means, time and desire your kids will do better regardless of your educational level.  That being said, I speak in public schools and I help teachers learn to deal with troubled youth.  If parents who can't homeschool their kids would get more involved at school, schools would be better.  I'm afraid they're just turning into baby sitters.

I don't think it should be completely outlawed, but a basic understanding of the subject being taught should have to be demonstrated (if you were truly dedicated to teaching your children, you'd read the books, learn the material, and pass the tests...if you don't, you're obviously not that dedicated). And I'd probably throw in that you should have to be given a clean bill of health by a state psychiatrist.

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You're even more enjoyable when you are blunt GIC!!! Wink

You're one of the few who think so. Wink
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« Reply #58 on: April 08, 2008, 01:25:35 AM »

Then they talked about a study that seemed to be examining whether homeschoolers were cooking the books, i.e. inflating grades, concentrating too much on testing, etc. and compared the first year college performance of kids with similiar GPAs, SAT scores, etc between homeschooled children and others.  I.e. they examined how a homeschooler with a 3.8 GPA and a 1210 SAT did his first year compared with someone in public schools with the same scores.  You would also think that this would be an indicator of how a homeschool kid was socially prepared for school.  If he wasn't mentally ready, you'd think his grades would suffer.  What the study found was that across all observable date, a home school kid with a 3.8 and 1210 Sat did just as well as the public school student.  Combine that with the fact that homeschool children test better, it's hard to argue, except if you had some bitter homeschool experience, that the data shows anything but that homeschooling is a good thing.

Any data on their financial success later in life? I came across a couple articles online that said they included this data in their abstract...but I wasn't going to pay $30 to get the whole article.
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« Reply #59 on: April 08, 2008, 01:54:08 AM »

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Point B: Most people who home school aren't psychologically fit to be parents, many should be committed, they certainly shouldn't be given free reign to indoctrinate their offspring.

Greeki, the rest of the world is bigger than the living rooms of the Jesus Camp-type of Home schoolers. People may be indoctrinated, but sooner or later, these same people find out how different things are for themselves. That's what the teenage years are for: rebellion and discovery! Wink
You and I both came from families that were fundamentalist Christian, and yet we have discovered that God doesn't have us by the front of our shirts when we sin, and the six-day Creation thing isn't true. Though some home schooled kids will probably not escape being as crazy as their parents until they either hurt someone or die, I have confidence that most of these kids won't be interested in filling out an application for God's Army or anything.... Grin
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« Reply #60 on: April 08, 2008, 02:23:36 AM »

No, they'll just undergo considerable psychological damage...but I guess it's nothing that some meds and a few decades of psychotherapy can't fix.
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« Reply #61 on: April 08, 2008, 07:00:39 AM »

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What kindergarten teacher hands their student third grade level books?

Ours does, to challenge him.  Smiley

Of course we are still trying to figure out how much he understands, because he likes to be silly and give the wrong answer on purpose (does it all the time on Dora the Explorer, and giggles the whole time).  Wink
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« Reply #62 on: April 08, 2008, 07:55:28 AM »

Oh! So he is bitter about being homeschooled, that explains it Cheesy

No, not at all.  He's just seen enough homeschooled kids who know nothing when they do come to public school.  Tongue  I'll let him speak for himself now.  LOL!
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« Reply #63 on: April 08, 2008, 10:58:23 AM »

No, not at all.  He's just seen enough homeschooled kids who know nothing when they do come to public school.  Tongue  I'll let him speak for himself now.  LOL! 

I have two close friends who were homeschooled to a point, and then went to high school (one only for his senior year, the other for her junior and senior years).  Both found the "workload" at High School to be laughable (they were used to a much more strenuous reading and homework regimen), and quite frankly did exceptionally on tests and whatnot (much better than average).  One could argue genetics in this case (they're of the same family), but it is my only firsthand experience with the subject.
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« Reply #64 on: April 08, 2008, 12:59:48 PM »

.

Point B: Most people who homeschool arn't psychologically fit to be parents, many should be committed, they certainly shouldn't be given free reign to indoctrinate their offspring.


On the contrary, you may be surprised to know that there is a lot more diversity in the home school community. Not all home school families are homespun, denim skirt wearing, snake handling, half educated idiots who want to seal their tender little snowflakes from the harms of this world.  In my line of work I deal with families who for many reasons have decided to homeschool their children. I'm happy to report that many of the families I work with are "educated" with "real" Bachelor's degrees (and higher! I recently worked with a family where both parents where PH.D's) from credible colleges and universities. Also, there are many who have worked as educators prior to making the commitment to homeschool.
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« Reply #65 on: April 08, 2008, 01:03:53 PM »

On the contrary, you may be surprised to know that there is a lot more diversity in the home school community. Not all home school families are homespun, denim skirt wearing, snake handling, half educated idiots who want to seal their tender little snowflakes from the harms of this world.  In my line of work I deal with families who for many reasons have decided to homeschool their children. I'm happy to report that many of the families I work with are "educated" with "real" Bachelor's degrees (and higher! I recently worked with a family where both parents where PH.D's) from credible colleges and universities. Also, there are many who have worked as educators prior to making the commitment to homeschool.

Which is an entirely different situation than the one that worries me. I hope what you describe is closer to the status quo in most regions, sadly it isn't here.
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« Reply #66 on: April 08, 2008, 01:28:26 PM »

GiC: Your curly white tail is showing. The people that you "know" that homeschool are from  "Jesus camp?" You argue that we should fight the mob mentality and you are getting your views on homeschooling from a TV show? Can you say "Baa baa, I am part of the TV watching masses that believe everything I see on TV?"


And there HAS to be more to Mr. Y's hostility towards homeschooling then that. He is FAR to angry about the subject for it to merely be his experience with homeschooled kids in his..what... 3 years as a teacher? That is hardly enough experience with homeschooled kids in a public school setting to base even a crappy study on. Once he has 25 years under his belt I will actually take his views without a pound of salt.
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« Reply #67 on: April 08, 2008, 01:38:07 PM »

My husband actually attended a private school 1-4, homeschool 5-8 and a public highschool 9-12. I was homeschooled for the 10th grade until  my mom gave up. So I earned my GED. And outside of my own reading, 10th grade education and my vocational training as a cosmetologist I have no education. And guess what? Next year I plan on teaching my daughter Latin! I am POSITVE that she wouldn't be learning that in ANY public school.
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« Reply #68 on: April 08, 2008, 01:45:19 PM »

GiC: Your curly white tail is showing. The people that you "know" that homeschool are from a Jesus camp? You argue that we should fight the mob mentality and you are getting your views on homeschooling from a TV show? Can you say "Baa baa, I am part of the TV watching masses that believe everything I see on TV?"

I don't even have a TV...so much for that thesis. The only shows I watch are Two and a Half Men and BSG, both of which I download from the internet and watch without commercials. Of course, I do read papers from secular humanists...which is probably a bigger intellectual influence on me.

Quote
And there HAS to be more to Mr. Y's hostility towards homeschooling then that. He is FAR to angry about the subject for it to merely be his experience with homeschooled kids in his..what 3 years as a teacher. That is hardly enough experience with homeschooled kids in a public school setting to base even a crappy study on.

I've noticed that the education/indoctrination of the youth can be a fairly emotional issue in general, considering we live in a republic and they will eventually have a role in choosing our government...thus making these issues social problems. If you read some of the stuff coming written on this subject coming out of England there is also a fair degree of emotion, even though homeschooling there is restricted to the standards I presented (as well as a teaching certificate)...it's ultimately a political issue.
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« Reply #69 on: April 08, 2008, 01:46:37 PM »

My mistake, you refered to the television show in a previous post. Why did you mention it if you haven't seen it?
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« Reply #70 on: April 08, 2008, 01:51:04 PM »

Gic; so then if all public education was faith based you would then argue that we should all homeschool so that our children aren't indoctrinated? It seems you have a problem with faith having any part in education.

The majority of homeschoolers here in the puget sound are militant atheists in my experience.
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« Reply #71 on: April 08, 2008, 01:51:41 PM »

My mistake, you refered to the television show in a previous post. Why did you mention it if you haven't seen it?

Because if GIC can't win a debate he pushes buttons to make it emotional, then when the dust settles tries to sound reasonable.  And sometimes he does it just because he thinks it fun.  Once you see his predictable pattern, he can be fun to watch! Wink
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« Reply #72 on: April 08, 2008, 01:53:02 PM »

Because if GIC can't win a debate he pushes buttons to make it emotional, then when the dust settles tries to sound reasonable.  And sometimes he does it just because he thinks it fun.  Once you see his predictable pattern, he can be fun to watch! Wink

Oh, it is fun to watch. Much like watching my dogs turn in circles in order to lick their rears is quite amusing. Or putting tape on my cats paws and watching him try and shake the tape off is hilarious.
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« Reply #73 on: April 08, 2008, 01:53:36 PM »

My mistake, you refered to the television show in a previous post. Why did you mention it if you haven't seen it?

I did? Where?
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« Reply #74 on: April 08, 2008, 01:55:05 PM »

Ours does, to challenge him.  Smiley

Of course we are still trying to figure out how much he understands, because he likes to be silly and give the wrong answer on purpose (does it all the time on Dora the Explorer, and giggles the whole time).  Wink

That wouldn't happen in any public schools here. There is a small chance it would, but I wouldn't gamble my childs education on it.
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« Reply #75 on: April 08, 2008, 01:56:11 PM »

Gic; so then if all public education was faith based you would then argue that we should all homeschool so that our children aren't indoctrinated? It seems you have a problem with faith having any part in education.

No, I'd just advocate that religion be removed from schools. It really has no place before graduate level theological studies. The recognition of this is why we stopped accrediting undergraduate Batchelors of Theology degrees in the U.S.

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The majority of homeschoolers here in the puget sound are militant atheists in my experience.

Which is probably not healthy either. Indoctrination with extreme ideology is unhealthy, the more moderate approach (generally) found in the public school system, as well as in non-religious private schools, is preferable.
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« Reply #76 on: April 08, 2008, 01:58:21 PM »

There is no moderation in the schools here. When I taught preschool I had to teach the 4-5 year olds about homosexuality. "Tolerance" based teaching IS indoctrination.
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« Reply #77 on: April 08, 2008, 01:58:43 PM »

Because if GIC can't win a debate he pushes buttons to make it emotional, then when the dust settles tries to sound reasonable.  And sometimes he does it just because he thinks it fun.  Once you see his predictable pattern, he can be fun to watch! Wink

Eh, in most contexts I could just say, 'too many homeschooling parents are religious nutcases, period.' And that would be enough to put a convincing argument out against it. On OC.net...'religious nut' doesn't quite carry the same stigma as it does in general society, so I have to play around with the issue a bit more. Even though we have different fundamental assumptions, it's still fun to kick around the issue.
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« Reply #78 on: April 08, 2008, 01:59:44 PM »

There is no moderation in the schools here. When I taught preschool I had to teach the 4-5 year olds about homosexuality. "Tolerance" based teaching IS indoctrination.

Nothing wrong with that, children should be taught to respect such differences. 'To each their own' is hardly extremist indoctrination, it's the basis of a free society.
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« Reply #79 on: April 08, 2008, 02:05:52 PM »

Teaching about homosexuality is sex education. Knowledge before readiness is damaging. And all a 4-5 year old needs to know is that a baby comes from a mommy and daddy. Not; "Your mommy and your mommy really wanted a baby but couldn't have one so they went to another man to give them "seed" to make you."

If everything is OK then everything is also NOT OK. It is amazing how "intolerant" you are of my "alternative lifestyle" GiC.  If I am in the minority for my beliefs then my lifestyle is an "alternative" one. As such you should be more tolerant of me. Cheesy
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« Reply #80 on: April 08, 2008, 02:07:48 PM »

I haven't taught my 6 year old about sex yet. But I also haven't opened up my copy of the Anarchist cookbook and show her how to make napalm either. Both lessons will come in good time. Grin
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« Reply #81 on: April 08, 2008, 03:13:13 PM »

Teaching about homosexuality is sex education. Knowledge before readiness is damaging. And all a 4-5 year old needs to know is that a baby comes from a mommy and daddy. Not; "Your mommy and your mommy really wanted a baby but couldn't have one so they went to another man to give them "seed" to make you."

If everything is OK then everything is also NOT OK. It is amazing how "intolerant" you are of my "alternative lifestyle" GiC.  If I am in the minority for my beliefs then my lifestyle is an "alternative" one. As such you should be more tolerant of me. Cheesy

I'm tolerant of it, but my libertarian ideals apply only to the person...not their family. There is a social responsibility to educate children in a manner consonant with the general expectations of society at large. Sex is a perfectly natural and healthy thing, whether or not it is discussed is not as important as when it is brought up an open and tolerant view is presented. What is unhealthy is indoctrinating them to believe that sexuality is taboo except under a certain set of socially acceptable conditions (not that these expectations are representative general society, only certain subcultures).

In general, religion and sexuality should be treated the same way. Tolerance and respect should be taught to child...as for the engaging in it, what consenting adults do with themselves or each other in privacy is their concern.

I haven't taught my 6 year old about sex yet. But I also haven't opened up my copy of the Anarchist cookbook and show her how to make napalm either. Both lessons will come in good time. Grin

Understandable, I didn't make Napalm until I was almost 8. Wink
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« Reply #82 on: April 08, 2008, 09:16:10 PM »

My six year old (kindergarten age for our area because of her birthday) reads at a third grade level. There is absolutely NO WAY that she would be able to do so if she were in a public school. She likely would have been bored with the material, slacked off and labeled "below average" because no one would have actually tried to give her more challenging reading material. This is precisely what happened to me.
There is absolutely no way? None at all? No, for instance, gifted programs? No summer reading programs? No after-school tutoring? No parent-teacher organizations? No libraries? Sheesh, if that's the case, come on down to Missouri. We'll have all your children reading at a third grade level in no time.

Quote
What kindergarten teacher hands their student third grade level books?
All of them worth keeping around. Take a look at some elementary curriculum, and you'll see that "reading groups" are par for the course. They may have cute names--Puppies, Kittens, Bunnies, Giraffes--but both adults and kids know these are code names for groups that read below grade level, at grade level, or above grade level. A good teacher will create as many groups as are necessary, tailored to the actual children in that particular class.
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« Reply #83 on: April 08, 2008, 09:19:55 PM »

Oh! So he isI am bitter about being homeschooledin public school, that explains it Cheesy
I fixed it. You're welcome.
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« Reply #84 on: April 08, 2008, 09:28:09 PM »

Some home school socialization info from a digest on the Indiana University site, 

Stough (1992),looking particularly at socialization, compared 30 home- schooling families and 32 conventionally schooling families, families with children 7-14 years of age. According to the findings, children who were schooled at home "gained the necessary skills, knowledge, and attitudes needed to function in society...at a rate similar to that of conventionally schooled children." The researcher found no difference in the self concept of children in the two groups. Stough maintains that "insofar as self concept is a reflector of socialization, it would appear that few home-schooled children are socially deprived, and that there may be sufficient evidence to indicate that some home- schooled children have a higher self concept than conventionally schooled children."

This echoes the findings of Taylor (1987). Using one of the best validated self-concept scales available, Taylor's random sampling of home-schooled children (45,000) found that half of these children scored at or above the 91st percentile--47% higher than the average, conventionally schooled child. He concludes: "Since self concept is considered to be a basic dynamic of positive sociability, this answers the often heard skepticism suggesting that home schoolers are inferior in socialization" (Taylor, 1987).

From http://www.indiana.edu/~reading/ieo/digests/d94.html
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« Reply #85 on: April 08, 2008, 10:00:06 PM »

Not a study, but a good article on the breaking down of Homeschool stereotypes and the reality of the situation from that fundamentalist evangelical right wing rag, The Boston Globe! Wink

"No longer just for the religious fundamentalists, home schooling has gone main stream, especially in Massachusetts. It's estimated that as many as 20,000 children here have abandoned test-crazy public schools and high-priced private schools for the comfort of the living room couch. But most surprising of all is that Harvard, BU, Brown, and other colleges are welcoming home-schoolers like all other students"

"As home-schoolers get accepted into the Ivies and prove themselves worthy in the eyes of the mainstream educational institutions, it would seem inevitable that cultural stereotypes about them will eventually break down."

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/magazine/articles/2004/03/21/schoolhouse_rocked/?page=1


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« Reply #86 on: April 09, 2008, 12:31:02 AM »

I fixed it. You're welcome.

Actually I was homeschooled for one year, my 10th grade year. And if I were to decide on the issue of homeschooling soley on my own experiences I would NEVER EVER homeschool. My mother chose a program that would have me graduating at the age of 20. And the history textbooks were like some ultra conservative text on speed. I hated every second of homeschooling. And I was more then happy to go get my GED at 16.
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« Reply #87 on: April 09, 2008, 12:42:09 AM »

My public schooling was great! I attended two grade schools and two middle schools in my 9 years of public education. My first grade school was great. It was in a higher income and class area. And so there was computer classes for us even though computers were just catching on. (I am dating myself, this was in the early to mid 80's). I started 1st grade at the age of 5.

And I started skipping classes at my new grade school around the age of 8-9, no one noticed or even cared. And for my 7-9th grade years I was able to go to classes at my two schools stoned out of my gourd and still pull off passing grades. The teachers would even get high with me! The sign launguage interpreter was great since he had left over pot from when his deceased wife was in chemo.

My school district was small. There were 4 middle schools to chose from in the entire city and I went to two of them. And from what I heard my experiences were not that unusual. That was in my home town of Salem OR.

I was convinced that we needed to homeschool when I voted the first time in our city at a local highschool in the richest area of Seattle. The textbooks in the library were about 20 years old. They still had Germany split and the USSR on record. And then you add in the whole WASL and the schools here are awful. My children will have a MUCH better education at home. In fact the requirements that I have to fufill are much more stringent than my public school teacher counterparts. I have to teach my children art and music and neither subject is offered here until you are in highschool. I have to teach my child so that she will meet or exceed grade standards, and the teachers here only have to give a test, they are not responsible for the results of the test. If my children don't keep grade level I can't teach them at home anymore. If they don't teach my child well enough to keep at grade level they just pass them off to someone else.

They teach to the WASL and that is it since all their funding is based on test scores. I can actually teach subjects that are...gasp...useful.
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« Reply #88 on: April 09, 2008, 01:43:38 AM »

I just started my teacher's assistant job last week at a public middle school in Northern California. I have spent most of my time trying to teach six graders how to write a five paragraph essay. Most of these kids can't even write a complete sentence let alone a whole essay. Correct spelling, punctuation, and grammar are skills that have not been taught. In order to help the worst cases pass the writing assessment test I was instructed to type the test for them as the child dictated their essay to me. The teacher told me to not worry about whether the child could spell small words but that I should only have the them spell the large words. Some of these kids couldn't even spell everyday words like: different, crawl, cricket or beautiful. After one week I am shocked by the extremely poor writing abilities of these students. Most of the families in this district are high income, high education, and Caucasian. Scary! I can only imagine how horrible it must be in the low income districts around the state. Public education in California needs to be completely overhauled. The first thing that needs to go is the California Teacher's Association.
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« Reply #89 on: April 09, 2008, 02:04:05 AM »

I hear of people here who homeschool and find they only need to school 2  1/2 hours per day in order to teach the required curriculum (in a classroom setting, the teacher spends the majority of the day on classroom/behaviour management, transitions, etc.) They are able to spend the rest of the day doing a variety of things they wouldn't be able to do as much of if the kids were schooled institutionally (sports, various fieldtrips, volunteer work, etc.). These other things provide the socialisation required and the school district actually provides a class one day per week where all the homeschooled kids can come together with a teacher in a classroom atmosphere. Sounds like the best of all worlds to me (and I am a teacher in an international baccalaureate private school). Let's not forget too that the reason we school in institutions the way that we currently do is because it is supposedly the cheapest method (in an institutional setting), not because it is the best. The schooling system as we know it was originated in places like Germany where the powers that were wanted soldiers and factory workers who would fall in line, and not think for themselves (now, most teachers I know personally nowadays work hard to foster critical thinking in their classrooms, but we shouldn't fool ourselves into thinking that the institutional approach is always superior.

There is a lot of ignorance and myths surrounding homeschooling. Yup, some of it is done by ignorant fundamentalist half-wits, but most is not (at least around here). There really is a huge variety. I know one family, for instance, that intend on doing it when their babies are bigger - they are a very liberal, non-religious couple who managed to purchase beautiful, rural waterfront property that they will run an outdoor school off of, and want to rear their children with their environmentalist, simple living, outdoor ethos.

kmm
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