Author Topic: Parents Pick Prayer Over Docs; Girl Dies  (Read 6924 times)

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Offline GiC

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Re: Parents Pick Prayer Over Docs; Girl Dies
« Reply #45 on: March 29, 2008, 04:40:01 PM »
greekischristian,


Do you believe in the power of prayer?

No more so than I believe in the power of rabbit's feet and four leaf clovers; the only benefits to prayer are purely psychological. Whether or not there is a God is up for debate, but the fact that if there is one he doesn't intervene directly in the world should be obvious to everyone.

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I think a parent should do both. (both pray & seek doctors) But to call it second hand murder is going too far.

Not second hand, second degree. They are directly responsible for killing her, just as responsible as they would have been if they put a gun to her head and pulled the trigger themselves.

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I can understand why an Atheist or an Agnostic would say something like that......because prayer to them is meaningless. But why are you saying this?

Not every theist believes in a personal and involved deity. If there are deities of some sort I don't really think they intervene in the lives of men, they sit back and are uninvolved. The logical progression of the world and the consistency of the laws of physics bear witness to this.
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Parents Pick Prayer Over Docs; Girl Dies
« Reply #46 on: March 29, 2008, 05:31:40 PM »
The logical progression of the world and the consistency of the laws of physics bear witness to this.

Perhaps it's senility setting in, but as I get older, I find less and less "logic" in the world, and we've only "progressed if you count technological advancement. In everything else, we seem to be devolving.
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Offline GiC

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Re: Parents Pick Prayer Over Docs; Girl Dies
« Reply #47 on: March 29, 2008, 06:30:15 PM »
Perhaps it's senility setting in, but as I get older, I find less and less "logic" in the world, and we've only "progressed if you count technological advancement. In everything else, we seem to be devolving.

Technological advancement AND scientific knowledge...and beyond that, what else really matters? ;)
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Offline jnorm888

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Re: Parents Pick Prayer Over Docs; Girl Dies
« Reply #48 on: March 29, 2008, 06:35:15 PM »
No more so than I believe in the power of rabbit's feet and four leaf clovers; the only benefits to prayer are purely psychological. Whether or not there is a God is up for debate, but the fact that if there is one he doesn't intervene directly in the world should be obvious to everyone.

Not second hand, second degree. They are directly responsible for killing her, just as responsible as they would have been if they put a gun to her head and pulled the trigger themselves.

Not every theist believes in a personal and involved deity. If there are deities of some sort I don't really think they intervene in the lives of men, they sit back and are uninvolved. The logical progression of the world and the consistency of the laws of physics bear witness to this.




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Offline Riddikulus

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Re: Parents Pick Prayer Over Docs; Girl Dies
« Reply #49 on: March 29, 2008, 07:35:39 PM »
Belief in a higher power doesn't constitute a man criminally insane.

Wouldn't you say that any sensible believer would follow the advice of Myrrh's Russian saying - "Pray to God and row for the shore?"

I also wonder what kind of aid they were expecting. Someone else has probably mentioned it, but this sort of thing reminds me of the joke about the guy lost at see who prayers to God to help him and then goes on to refuse all mundane offers of aid that arrive. He drowns, and when he's question at the gates of heaven as to why he refused the help, he states he was waiting for God to help him. God then asks him who does he think sent him the people who were offering help.


 
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Offline serb1389

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Re: Parents Pick Prayer Over Docs; Girl Dies
« Reply #50 on: March 29, 2008, 11:28:28 PM »
No more so than I believe in the power of rabbit's feet and four leaf clovers; the only benefits to prayer are purely psychological. Whether or not there is a God is up for debate, but the fact that if there is one he doesn't intervene directly in the world should be obvious to everyone.

Not to be simple, but I will be.  What about miracles?  There are miracles that are definitely NOT purely psychological.  What would you say to that? 
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Offline GiC

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Re: Parents Pick Prayer Over Docs; Girl Dies
« Reply #51 on: March 29, 2008, 11:52:49 PM »
Not to be simple, but I will be.  What about miracles?  There are miracles that are definitely NOT purely psychological.  What would you say to that? 

Only that I don't believe they occur.
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Re: Parents Pick Prayer Over Docs; Girl Dies
« Reply #52 on: March 30, 2008, 12:57:57 AM »
I don't think there is a fundamental difference between the two situations.

Can't say I'm surprised.  Unintentional manslaughter and premeditated murder must be the same too.

Btw, didn't Dr. Spock admit he helped raise a generation of brats, although he had the best of intentions?  Maybe we should stone him too.


No more so than I believe in the power of rabbit's feet and four leaf clovers; the only benefits to prayer are purely psychological. Whether or not there is a God is up for debate, but the fact that if there is one he doesn't intervene directly in the world should be obvious to everyone.

Funny, most of us here are getting ready to celebrate His direct intervention.  That should be obvious to everyone.

I remember being told, while watching a film on the Ethiopian famine, that that was the reason they couldn't "believe in the Christian God, when He allows that." I replied, "fine, there's no God.  Now who do you blame?"

It has been my experience that those who deny God's existence or involvement by asserting it rather than proving it, do so because of disappointment that He won't fit in their agendas.

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Not second hand, second degree. They are directly responsible for killing her, just as responsible as they would have been if they put a gun to her head and pulled the trigger themselves.

I'd love to know what you are going to be with all those parents who overdrugged their kids on ritalin, it being only a matter of time until that medical wonder comes to a head.

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Not every theist believes in a personal and involved deity. If there are deities of some sort I don't really think they intervene in the lives of men, they sit back and are uninvolved. The logical progression of the world and the consistency of the laws of physics bear witness to this.

Or perhaps God is more consistent than you.

Btw, your sig: Lao Tzu obviously didn't read "Lord of the Flies."
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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Offline serb1389

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Re: Parents Pick Prayer Over Docs; Girl Dies
« Reply #53 on: March 30, 2008, 01:40:18 AM »
Only that I don't believe they occur.

Hm...I have personally experienced a miracle, and I know a priest who has witnessed a physical transformation right in front of his eyes.  What would you say to these points? 
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Offline GiC

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Re: Parents Pick Prayer Over Docs; Girl Dies
« Reply #54 on: March 30, 2008, 03:46:23 AM »
Can't say I'm surprised.  Unintentional manslaughter and premeditated murder must be the same too.

Not quite what's going on here. A reasonable person should have known that science and medicine would do more to help a person than some supposed deity. The fact that the didn't realize this is what leads me to the hypothesis that they are criminally insane.

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Btw, didn't Dr. Spock admit he helped raise a generation of brats, although he had the best of intentions?  Maybe we should stone him too.

Nothing wrong with raising brats, that just means they don't fit a certain social mold. Not raising your child to conform to outdated social norms and killing it are two entirely different things.

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Funny, most of us here are getting ready to celebrate His direct intervention.  That should be obvious to everyone.

You can celebrate whatever you want, that doesn't mean it's reasonable. But even then, there is a fundamental difference between believing in a singularity in which some deity did something at a specific point in time and the belief that some deity regularly undermines physical reality of the universe.

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I remember being told, while watching a film on the Ethiopian famine, that that was the reason they couldn't "believe in the Christian God, when He allows that." I replied, "fine, there's no God.  Now who do you blame?"

The same natural forces of nature which have guided our evolution for billions of years.

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It has been my experience that those who deny God's existence or involvement by asserting it rather than proving it, do so because of disappointment that He won't fit in their agendas.

One does not have to prove whether or not there is a deity, the fact that its followers have not been able to prove that it is absolutely necessary is enough to dismiss it using occam's razor.

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I'd love to know what you are going to be with all those parents who overdrugged their kids on ritalin, it being only a matter of time until that medical wonder comes to a head.

And what peer reviewed research do you have to back up that assertion?

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Or perhaps God is more consistent than you.

Perhaps...though unlikely.

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Btw, your sig: Lao Tzu obviously didn't read "Lord of the Flies."

Given Lao Tzu and William Golding, I think I'll take the former as the greater philosopher.
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Re: Parents Pick Prayer Over Docs; Girl Dies
« Reply #55 on: March 30, 2008, 09:31:25 AM »
Not quite what's going on here. A reasonable person should have known that science and medicine would do more to help a person than some supposed deity. The fact that the didn't realize this is what leads me to the hypothesis that they are criminally insane.

I remember there being a CS case of a boy dying from Crohn's disease, and the CS were pointing out, correctly, that the child star Heather O'Rourke had just died from the exact same disease, after receiving treatment from the best medical science could offer.  Same result.  So why aren't Heather's parents criminally insane?

Btw, her co-star Dominique Dunne (near whom O'Rourke is buried) had already been strangled by her boyfriend, because she left him.  He was convicted for manslaughter and served less than 4 years.  I guess it's just the same as our CS parents.


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Nothing wrong with raising brats, that just means they don't fit a certain social mold. Not raising your child to conform to outdated social norms and killing it are two entirely different things.
Oh?  I just spent Friday in a gun scare at school (High School).  Not raising your child to conform to tried and true social norms and killing are exactly the same thing.

I work every day with Dr. Spock's progeny.  Do you have any contact with children?

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You can celebrate whatever you want, that doesn't mean it's reasonable. But even then, there is a fundamental difference between believing in a singularity in which some deity did something at a specific point in time and the belief that some deity regularly undermines physical reality of the universe.
Just pointing out the obvious of what forum you are posting.  If you want to talk about how insane we are in believing in God, start a thread.

Btw, the need for the invention of the idea of Punctuated Equalibrium would show the universe, or rather science's explanation of it, is less consistent than you would like.

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The same natural forces of nature which have guided our evolution for billions of years.

Like entropy resulting in order.

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One does not have to prove whether or not there is a deity, the fact that its followers have not been able to prove that it is absolutely necessary is enough to dismiss it using occam's razor.

That razor is dulled when shaving the obstinate.

And, as scientists are loathe to admit, Isaac Newton would seriously contend with you on that: he saw his scientific work as a by product of his religious studies (which is the bulk of his life's work, though relegated into obscurity by those who build modern science on his work).

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And what peer reviewed research do you have to back up that assertion?
Having worked at a psych hospital I 1) don't need a peer reviewed journal to tell me what I see, 2) saw enough to be leery of the "peers."

That being said, one study I saw showed that the prescription for ritilin corelated better with zip codes than with symptoms.  Zip codes, btw, tell you something about affluence and the ability to pay for medications.

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Perhaps...though unlikely.
Modest as always.

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Given Lao Tzu and William Golding, I think I'll take the former as the greater philosopher.
I thought you were the great empirisist.  Any observations to back you up?

That being said, Lao Tzu (or at least the Tao Te Ching) has a lot more to say.  I will note, that it was written while he was fleeing from society.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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Offline GiC

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Re: Parents Pick Prayer Over Docs; Girl Dies
« Reply #56 on: March 30, 2008, 12:58:44 PM »
I remember there being a CS case of a boy dying from Crohn's disease, and the CS were pointing out, correctly, that the child star Heather O'Rourke had just died from the exact same disease, after receiving treatment from the best medical science could offer.  Same result.  So why aren't Heather's parents criminally insane?

Since it is a genetic disease currently without a cure, there is no fool proof way of dealing with Crohn's disease. However, certain treatements (i.e. medication and, at times, surgery) have been proven to have a higher probability of success than others (i.e. prayer). The responsible act is to engage in the treatment with the higher probability of success and failure to do so does constitute neglect.

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Btw, her co-star Dominique Dunne (near whom O'Rourke is buried) had already been strangled by her boyfriend, because she left him.  He was convicted for manslaughter and served less than 4 years.  I guess it's just the same as our CS parents.

I don't know the specifics of the case, but if it is as you say it seems to demonstrate a failure in our judicial system, these unfortunately happen from time to time, it doesn't mean that we should make them precedent.

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Oh?  I just spent Friday in a gun scare at school (High School).  Not raising your child to conform to tried and true social norms and killing are exactly the same thing.

Is this the failure of parents or perhaps the failure of some of our social norms? I would expand but it would probably drive the discussion into politics.

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I work every day with Dr. Spock's progeny.  Do you have any contact with children?

Fortunately not every day, but enough to know that there arn't many children I like putting up with, regardless of upbringing.

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Just pointing out the obvious of what forum you are posting.  If you want to talk about how insane we are in believing in God, start a thread.

Why do you think I started this thread? And the point isn't that believing in god is insane, it's not, the point is that spurning science inorder to hope for miracles is insane.

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Btw, the need for the invention of the idea of Punctuated Equalibrium would show the universe, or rather science's explanation of it, is less consistent than you would like.

If you include probability mechanics in your explination everything is perfectly logical and consistent.

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Like entropy resulting in order.

Locally, yes...hardly a contradiction to anything.

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And, as scientists are loathe to admit, Isaac Newton would seriously contend with you on that: he saw his scientific work as a by product of his religious studies (which is the bulk of his life's work, though relegated into obscurity by those who build modern science on his work).

And there are a plethora of other problems with Newton's work as demonstrated by the Theory of Relativity and Quantum Mechanics. He had some good points but was dead wrong, or at least inaccurate, on others. His faith, which is expected of a seventeenth century academic, is ignored for the simple reason that, regardless of what he may have thought, it's not significant.

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Having worked at a psych hospital I 1) don't need a peer reviewed journal to tell me what I see, 2) saw enough to be leery of the "peers."

No peer reviewed research to back up you hunch, eh? You'll forive me for not taking it seriously then. Let me know when you get it published in one of the Nature Journals, then we can talk about your theories.

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That being said, one study I saw showed that the prescription for ritilin corelated better with zip codes than with symptoms.  Zip codes, btw, tell you something about affluence and the ability to pay for medications.

And why is this significant to your theory about the effects of the medicine?

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Modest as always.

One must know their strengths and weaknesses. ;)

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I thought you were the great empirisist.  Any observations to back you up?

Judging the quality of philosophical works is often like judging the asthetic qualities of colours...it's generally a matter of personal preference. But with that said, I would argue that due to the scope alone the Tao Te Ching offers a greater degree of philosophical insight than Lord of the Flies, which was intended as a social commentary not a philosophical work.

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That being said, Lao Tzu (or at least the Tao Te Ching) has a lot more to say.  I will note, that it was written while he was fleeing from society.

By some theories, but not all. Ultimately we know nothing of Lao Tzu.
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Online ialmisry

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Re: Parents Pick Prayer Over Docs; Girl Dies
« Reply #57 on: March 30, 2008, 03:42:41 PM »
Since it is a genetic disease currently without a cure, there is no fool proof way of dealing with Crohn's disease. However, certain treatements (i.e. medication and, at times, surgery) have been proven to have a higher probability of success than others (i.e. prayer). The responsible act is to engage in the treatment with the higher probability of success and failure to do so does constitute neglect.

You threw intent out the window, saying the CS prayers were like a gun to the head, both ending in a dead child.  Now you want to nit pick about treatment options and success.

I'll repeat a previous question: what about parents putting a child through endless experimental treatments, suffering, and dying.  What then?  Lock them up?

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I don't know the specifics of the case, but if it is as you say it seems to demonstrate a failure in our judicial system, these unfortunately happen from time to time, it doesn't mean that we should make them precedent.



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Is this the failure of parents or perhaps the failure of some of our social norms? I would expand but it would probably drive the discussion into politics.

Back to Dr. Spock: both of the above.  That is, the revised social norms that Dr. Spock had inculcated into today's parents.

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Fortunately not every day, but enough to know that there arn't many children I like putting up with, regardless of upbringing.

Perhaps best for all concerned.  I, on the other hand, like children.

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Why do you think I started this thread? And the point isn't that believing in god is insane, it's not, the point is that spurning science inorder to hope for miracles is insane.

I'm inclined to agree with the last point, but I also admit that it is my belief, and I don't take forcing it on others off the table.

If you include probability mechanics in your explination everything is perfectly logical and consistent.

Locally, yes...hardly a contradiction to anything.

And there are a plethora of other problems with Newton's work as demonstrated by the Theory of Relativity and Quantum Mechanics. He had some good points but was dead wrong, or at least inaccurate, on others. His faith, which is expected of a seventeenth century academic, is ignored for the simple reason that, regardless of what he may have thought, it's not significant.

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No peer reviewed research to back up you hunch, eh? You'll forive me for not taking it seriously then. Let me know when you get it published in one of the Nature Journals, then we can talk about your theories.

No, I'd end up in a legal decision first.  Much of what goes on is criminal.

As peer reviewed research, yes it's there.  I just tend not to pay much attention to research that a) not in my main area of interest and b) just affirms what I already know from experience.

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And why is this significant to your theory about the effects of the medicine?

That the pharmacology is profit driven.  The market place doesn't solve all problems, and it creates many.

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One must know their strengths and weaknesses. ;)

Yes, one ought. ;)

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Judging the quality of philosophical works is often like judging the asthetic qualities of colours...it's generally a matter of personal preference. But with that said, I would argue that due to the scope alone the Tao Te Ching offers a greater degree of philosophical insight than Lord of the Flies, which was intended as a social commentary not a philosophical work.

Much of Taoism (and Chinese religion/philosophy in general) is just social commentary.

Lord of the Flies responses to Rousseau's (Lao Tzu's kin) philosophical idea of the state of nature.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Myrrh23

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Re: Parents Pick Prayer Over Docs; Girl Dies
« Reply #58 on: March 30, 2008, 11:36:07 PM »
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These people, in all the examples given, are probably criminally insane. As much as I'd like to see them hanged they probably need to be confined to a psychiatric hospital for a long time, they clearly need medication and therapy and probably shouldn't be allowed to have children again.

Maybe they're insane, maybe they're not. I think certain religions and religious branches put the satanic dazzle over your eyes...like Wicca, Scientology, and whatever these parents were involved in. What better way for the Devil to moon God than by leading people astray towards something that looks like it is condoned by God? Why is it mankind has been so able to defeat disease? God designed it that way!! Medicine is like a chess game...there are rules to it, it has calculated moves to it. I believe God wants us to pray for His help, but prayer is not the only helping hand He put in the deck.
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Re: Parents Pick Prayer Over Docs; Girl Dies
« Reply #59 on: March 30, 2008, 11:54:01 PM »
Not every theist believes in a personal and involved deity. If there are deities of some sort I don't really think they intervene in the lives of men, they sit back and are uninvolved. The logical progression of the world and the consistency of the laws of physics bear witness to this.

GIC and anyone else who cares to respond. I was always under the impression that a theist was someone who believed God was personal and involved! and a Deist is more in line with what you describe unless you add some crazy qualification. GIC do you believe that Christ was truly God and man?
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Offline GiC

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Re: Parents Pick Prayer Over Docs; Girl Dies
« Reply #60 on: March 31, 2008, 12:50:05 AM »
GIC and anyone else who cares to respond. I was always under the impression that a theist was someone who believed God was personal and involved! and a Deist is more in line with what you describe unless you add some crazy qualification.

A theist is simply someone who believes in a deity of some sort...deism is a branch of theism.

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GIC do you believe that Christ was truly God and man?

I'll give a definite maybe on that one. ;)
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Offline Riddikulus

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Re: Parents Pick Prayer Over Docs; Girl Dies
« Reply #61 on: March 31, 2008, 01:16:19 AM »
GIC and anyone else who cares to respond. I was always under the impression that a theist was someone who believed God was personal and involved! and a Deist is more in line with what you describe unless you add some crazy qualification. GIC do you believe that Christ was truly God and man?

I'm not sure that all theists would agree that God (whatever "God" might mean to each individual) is personal and involved, but I could be wrong. In Christianity, we seem to believe that God is personal and involved, though I should imagine that the degree of expected involvment might vary from believer to believer. For myself, I would never consider waiting prayerfully with a sick child. I would thank God for modern medicene and take a child to see a doctor asap. I'm not saying that I don't believe in miracles, however, I'm not ever sure that I would consider myself worthy of receiving one. Having said that, I'm sure that God has worked some interesting things in my life, some things that defy explanation but wouldn't qualify as "miraculous". But again, I wonder what exactly is "miraculous"? Perhaps that's not the point, but resorting to prayer alone rather than prayer and action certainly isn't my way.

I must admit that I had thought that deism was more in keeping with what GIC described, but again I could be wrong.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2008, 01:17:18 AM by Riddikulus »
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Offline Riddikulus

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Re: Parents Pick Prayer Over Docs; Girl Dies
« Reply #62 on: March 31, 2008, 01:19:00 AM »
A theist is simply someone who believes in a deity of some sort...deism is a branch of theism. ;)


Yes, of course! That clears that up!  ;D
« Last Edit: March 31, 2008, 01:19:27 AM by Riddikulus »
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Offline tweety234

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Re: Parents Pick Prayer Over Docs; Girl Dies
« Reply #63 on: December 04, 2012, 04:07:16 PM »
Something very similar happened here with a little girl that passed away because her parents wouldn't give her insulin and just prayed instead.  They were Christian Scientists.  Needless to say the parents and the pastor went to prison.  This was something that was ongoing for years with these parents. It was not an overnight event for them, they let their daughter suffer for years.

quite christianic. Letting someone suffer like that. I wonder why there isn't any law yet, that requires people to be checked psychiatrically, before they breed. Of course not everyone deserves that, but it would be good for the well being of the children, and hopefully for the future of mankind.
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Offline tweety234

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Re: Parents Pick Prayer Over Docs; Girl Dies
« Reply #64 on: December 04, 2012, 04:10:17 PM »
The logical progression of the world and the consistency of the laws of physics bear witness to this.

Perhaps it's senility setting in, but as I get older, I find less and less "logic" in the world, and we've only "progressed if you count technological advancement. In everything else, we seem to be devolving.

You find less. I find none. One of us is certainly right. I just hope it isn't me.
“God has no religion.”
― Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Parents Pick Prayer Over Docs; Girl Dies
« Reply #65 on: December 04, 2012, 04:12:13 PM »
Stop bumping long-dead threads, please.
At nunc desertis cessant sacraria lucis:
aurum omnes victa iam pietate colunt.
-Propertius, Elegies III.XIII:47-48

Ἀπ' ὃσα ἒκαμα κι ἀπ’ ὃσα εἶπα
νὰ μὴ ζητήσουνε νὰ βροῦν ποιός ἢμουν
-C.P Cavafy

Offline tweety234

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Re: Parents Pick Prayer Over Docs; Girl Dies
« Reply #66 on: December 04, 2012, 04:23:03 PM »
GIC and anyone else who cares to respond. I was always under the impression that a theist was someone who believed God was personal and involved! and a Deist is more in line with what you describe unless you add some crazy qualification. GIC do you believe that Christ was truly God and man?

I'm not sure that all theists would agree that God (whatever "God" might mean to each individual) is personal and involved, but I could be wrong. In Christianity, we seem to believe that God is personal and involved, though I should imagine that the degree of expected involvment might vary from believer to believer. For myself, I would never consider waiting prayerfully with a sick child. I would thank God for modern medicene and take a child to see a doctor asap. I'm not saying that I don't believe in miracles, however, I'm not ever sure that I would consider myself worthy of receiving one. Having said that, I'm sure that God has worked some interesting things in my life, some things that defy explanation but wouldn't qualify as "miraculous". But again, I wonder what exactly is "miraculous"? Perhaps that's not the point, but resorting to prayer alone rather than prayer and action certainly isn't my way.

I must admit that I had thought that deism was more in keeping with what GIC described, but again I could be wrong.
"I'm not saying that I don't believe in miracles, however, I'm not ever sure that I would consider myself worthy of receiving one."

I Always thought that myself. But think about it. God doesn't perform his miracles because we are worthy. He does because it's his nature. And he doesn't offer salvation because we deserve it. He does because he loves us.
“God has no religion.”
― Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi