Author Topic: Old and New Catholic Liturgies  (Read 12961 times)

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Offline Jakub

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Re:Old and New Catholic Liturgies
« Reply #45 on: November 12, 2003, 12:05:34 PM »
This topic was createdin the Liturgy board by Bridgid in June 03 , and you move it now ?

Too hard for people to figure out the subject of discussion , eh ?

Sheep dip I say.


james
« Last Edit: November 12, 2003, 12:10:25 PM by Jakub »
An old timer is a man who's had a lot of interesting experiences -- some of them true.

Grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to tell the difference.

Offline Robert

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Re:Old and New Catholic Liturgies
« Reply #46 on: November 12, 2003, 12:15:03 PM »
Quote
This topic was createdin the Liturgy board by Bridgid in June 03 , and you move it now ?

Too hard for people to figure out the subject of discussion , eh ?

Sheep dip I say.


james

I respond to complaints from users. No-one has complained about it until today so I didn't touch it. Are you complaining too?

Bobby

Offline Jakub

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Re:Old and New Catholic Liturgies
« Reply #47 on: November 12, 2003, 12:31:13 PM »
Big Bob Bobby,

Nope. Don't care much for whiners, though.


james

An old timer is a man who's had a lot of interesting experiences -- some of them true.

Grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to tell the difference.

Offline the slave

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Re:Old and New Catholic Liturgies
« Reply #48 on: November 12, 2003, 12:45:43 PM »
Join you in that last comment James - and some of us have been herre for a looooooooooooooooooong time.
"Never let anyone try to tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern. The West was fully Orthodox for a thousand years; and her venerable liturgy is far older than any of her heresies."
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Offline Saint Polycarp

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Re:Old and New Catholic Liturgies
« Reply #49 on: November 13, 2003, 12:59:21 AM »
For almost a year I have been asking RC priests and other knowledgable people this question, why did'nt they just change the Latin to English and leave the rest alone ?  Was it to simple ? Or was it trashing Tradition totally the main objective ?

I have not heard a rational answer yet.


james

The reason is that The Church wanted to change the focus of The Mass some inorder to have the people of God participate more in the liturgy. Traditions have changed over time. Change is nothing new and the focus of The Liturgy over 2000 years has changed at various times.
Peace,
Polycarp
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Offline The young fogey

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Re:Old and New Catholic Liturgies
« Reply #50 on: November 13, 2003, 01:26:08 AM »
Quote
The reason is that The Church wanted to change the focus of The Mass some

The Church? The Eastern rites of your communion didn't 'change the focus of the Mass', thank heavens. ISTM that perhaps unconsciously you think Catholic simply equals Roman.

Quote
inorder to have the people of God participate more in the liturgy. Traditions have changed over time. Change is nothing new and the focus of The Liturgy over 2000 years has changed at various times.

Evasion. A nonanswer. Again, simply translating the services would have done that. No, some folks made bad mistakes in prudential judgement and some wanted to trash tradition, as Jakub wrote.

P.S. Hope Brigid of Kildare is OK. ISTM the board hasn't heard from her lately.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2003, 05:20:20 AM by Serge »
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Offline Saint Polycarp

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Re:Old and New Catholic Liturgies
« Reply #51 on: November 13, 2003, 08:02:41 AM »
Quote
The reason is that The Church wanted to change the focus of The Mass some

The Church? The Eastern rites of your communion didn't 'change the focus of the Mass', thank heavens. ISTM that perhaps unconsciously you think Catholic simply equals Roman.

The liturgical changes were made via an Ecumenical Council of The Catholic Church and included all who are in communion with the Pope.

Quote
inorder to have the people of God participate more in the liturgy. Traditions have changed over time. Change is nothing new and the focus of The Liturgy over 2000 years has changed at various times.

Evasion. A nonanswer. Again, simply translating the services would have done that. No, some folks made bad mistakes in prudential judgement and some wanted to trash tradition, as Jakub wrote.

No evasion. That is the reason given by the fathers who decided to make the changes.  I prefered Latin because it united all of us in one common liturgical language. But I have read some materials regarding what changes were made and why. Technically I agree with the reasons. But I have mixed feelings about the results.
Peace,
Polycarp


P.S. Hope Brigid of Kildare is OK. ISTM the board hasn't heard from her lately.
Peace

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re:Old and New Catholic Liturgies
« Reply #52 on: November 13, 2003, 10:37:57 AM »
Quote
The liturgical changes were made via an Ecumenical Council of The Catholic Church and included all who are in communion with the Pope.

No.  It's been a while since I've read the documents, but the council did not make any liturgical changes as I remember, only recommendations.  There is nothing in Sacrosanctum Concilium that mandated anything like the Novus Ordo.  Did the council authorise a little cleaning up?  Of course.  But I can't see any justification from my reading of the Vatican II documents for going so far as the Novus Ordo.  IMO, the 1965 Missal was perfectly in line with what SC intended; why it was trashed after a few years in favour of the NO, I have no idea.
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Offline Ebor

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Re:Old and New Catholic Liturgies
« Reply #53 on: November 13, 2003, 12:02:16 PM »
Quote

P.S. Hope Brigid of Kildare is OK. ISTM the board hasn't heard from her lately.

I was thinking that just the other day.  Dows anyone know her or know if she's OK?  Sinjin has been missing too. I know Linus was very busy.  But I miss some of our comrades.

Ebor
« Last Edit: November 13, 2003, 12:03:07 PM by Ebor »
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Offline Saint Polycarp

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Re:Old and New Catholic Liturgies
« Reply #54 on: November 13, 2003, 12:05:09 PM »
Quote
The liturgical changes were made via an Ecumenical Council of The Catholic Church and included all who are in communion with the Pope.

No.  It's been a while since I've read the documents, but the council did not make any liturgical changes as I remember, only recommendations.  There is nothing in Sacrosanctum Concilium that mandated anything like the Novus Ordo.  Did the council authorise a little cleaning up?  Of course.  But I can't see any justification from my reading of the Vatican II documents for going so far as the Novus Ordo.  IMO, the 1965 Missal was perfectly in line with what SC intended; why it was trashed after a few years in favour of the NO, I have no idea.  

I'm not sure either to be honest. I thought the council came up with the guidelines that they intended to use for any change. If there was some major theological problem one would think that bishops all over the world would have had a meltdown. Yet I'm not aware of any widespread concern by the bishops.
No doubt there is plenty of room for improvement. Personally I'm hoping the next Pope will call another Ecumenical council to of reexamine the whole situation. Would be nice if it included The Orthodox too.
Peace,
Polycarp
Peace

Offline carpo-rusyn

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Re:Old and New Catholic Liturgies
« Reply #55 on: November 14, 2003, 07:20:40 PM »
Polycarp

Another Council!!!???!!!  We need to work on everything that V2 gave us.

[No doubt there is plenty of room for improvement]

Hopefully the new missal issued by JP2 will help and the new group doing the translation into English will be a little more conservative

Carpo-Rusyn

Offline LatinTrad

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Re:Old and New Catholic Liturgies
« Reply #56 on: November 14, 2003, 07:46:53 PM »
--The Novus Ordo Missae was definitely not issued by the Council.  Thank you, Mor E.

--Polycarp, Catholics are not obliged to believe that the Church's prudential decisions were good or correct or beneficial.  In the history of the Church, many bad decisions were made.  Even in the allegedly halcyon "pre-1000" Church, bad decisions were made.  E.g. the Second Council of Constantinople, which condemned the writings of three men (two of whom were closely involved in Chalcedon) as a conciliatory gesture to the Monophysites.  The results were disastrous in both East and West, provoking more schisms, etc.

Keep in mind that the Church's infallibility does not cover prudential judgments.  I think in the end we're gonna have to just admit that the Novus Ordo has been, in practice, an unmitigated disaster.  JMHO.

LatinTrad

Offline Saint Polycarp

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Re:Old and New Catholic Liturgies
« Reply #57 on: November 14, 2003, 11:00:06 PM »
--The Novus Ordo Missae was definitely not issued by the Council.  Thank you, Mor E.

--Polycarp, Catholics are not obliged to believe that the Church's prudential decisions were good or correct or beneficial.  In the history of the Church, many bad decisions were made.  Even in the allegedly halcyon "pre-1000" Church, bad decisions were made.  E.g. the Second Council of Constantinople, which condemned the writings of three men (two of whom were closely involved in Chalcedon) as a conciliatory gesture to the Monophysites.  The results were disastrous in both East and West, provoking more schisms, etc.

Keep in mind that the Church's infallibility does not cover prudential judgments.  I think in the end we're gonna have to just admit that the Novus Ordo has been, in practice, an unmitigated disaster.  JMHO.

LatinTrad


I agree.
Peace

Offline carpo-rusyn

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Re:Old and New Catholic Liturgies
« Reply #58 on: November 14, 2003, 11:40:36 PM »
[the Novus Ordo has been, in practice, an unmitigated disaster.  JMHO.]

I tend to agree but we're stuck with it by and large so where do we go from here?  (For those of us who don't want to go East.)

[Even in the allegedly halcyon "pre-1000" Church, bad decisions were made.  E.g. the Second Council of Constantinople, which condemned the writings ]

People do tend to look back on the halcyon days of the pre-1054 Church, or the Medieval Church or the pre-Vatican 2 Church and canonize these periods.  But if you really looked at these periods there were really some messed up things going on.

Isn't it amazing though that through all the bad decisions the Church endured and grew!  We've survived some pretty bad decisions by those in power in the Church and those outside the Church we can get through this little patch.

Carpo-Rusyn

Offline Jakub

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Re:Old and New Catholic Liturgies
« Reply #59 on: November 15, 2003, 01:48:55 AM »
Do my eyes deceive me or are a couple of Latins agreeing that the NO Mass is a no-no on a Orthodox Site ?  

Who knew ?

james

« Last Edit: November 15, 2003, 01:50:34 AM by Jakub »
An old timer is a man who's had a lot of interesting experiences -- some of them true.

Grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to tell the difference.

Offline carpo-rusyn

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Re:Old and New Catholic Liturgies
« Reply #60 on: November 15, 2003, 10:46:31 AM »
James

The NO a "no-no"??  Not at all.  The NO has been translated poorly into English here in the states.  (The translation used in the UK by the way is better) The ceremonial is nothing like the grandeur of the Latin mass.  It has caused some problems around giving the faithful the wrong idea of what the Church is.

BUT..............It is a valid liturgy approved by the Vicar of Christ (I can say this as we are in the O-C section) for use in the RCC.  What happens in the most glourious Divine Liturgy at any EO church replete with icons beautiful vestments and no pews also happens in a Mass celebrated in a gymnasium by an RC priest  with bare walls, folding chairs with the priest wearing a chasuble with a butterfly on it.  

Carpo-Rusyn

Offline the slave

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Re:Old and New Catholic Liturgies
« Reply #61 on: November 15, 2003, 11:39:12 AM »
<<(The translation used in the UK by the way is better) >>

Hooray - thank goodness we are doing something rite ;)

However it has to be admitted that we are all waiting for new translations to come out of Rome since the powers that be there decided that the Committee had done a bad job of translation in the first place.
"Never let anyone try to tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern. The West was fully Orthodox for a thousand years; and her venerable liturgy is far older than any of her heresies."
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Offline The young fogey

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Re:Old and New Catholic Liturgies
« Reply #62 on: November 15, 2003, 04:58:50 PM »
Quote
BUT..............It is a valid liturgy approved by the Vicar of Christ (I can say this as we are in the O-C section) for use in the RCC.  What happens in the most glourious Divine Liturgy at any EO church replete with icons beautiful vestments and no pews also happens in a Mass celebrated in a gymnasium by an RC priest  with bare walls, folding chairs with the priest wearing a chasuble with a butterfly on it.


I understand 'where you're coming from' emotionally, etc., but at least for argument's sake, perhaps this isn't so.

1. Re: 'the Vicar of Christ', Catholicism is not the cult of the Pope (traditionalists get this; conservative and charismatic types don't). He makes mistakes in prudential judgement. The EWTN phenom of Pope worship (papolatry) is decidedly modern - 'very Vatican II'.

2. If one takes the Eastern Rites seriously, as I think you do even though you are Roman Rite, then one can argue that if the Catholic Church is the Church, that means at least one of its rites will be 'valid', not necessarily all of them and not necessarily the biggest one (as 98% of Catholics are Roman). OK, at least for argument's sake, the NO could be completely bogus - bread thou art, and bread thou shalt remain ('Eeeeeat this breeeeeead, driiiiiiink this cuuuuuup') - but the seven Eastern Rites (used by about 20 small Eastern Catholic churches) and the barely tolerated 'insult Mass' (Tridentine) would fulfil this.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2003, 11:28:23 PM by Serge »
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Offline carpo-rusyn

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Re:Old and New Catholic Liturgies
« Reply #63 on: November 15, 2003, 06:07:35 PM »
Serge

[ Re: 'the Vicar of Christ', Catholicism is not the cult of the Pope ]

I quite agree.  But the pope is the guardian par excellance of the deposit of faith and the final word in what is and is not "kosher".  He can make mistakes in judgement and has in the past.  Sometimes though we shouldn't look for smole where there is no fire.  Was the NO a mistake?  I don't know.  I think it could've been better done in translation and other areas but it was a product of the Church.

[bread thou art, and bread thou shalt remain]

Yah know I'd like to know the source for this?  I know it was supposedly uttered by a Renaissance cleric(who is most probably still in purgatory, if he ever said it) but where is it in writing or is it an ecclesiastical myth.

I think we run the risk of a neo-Donatism here.  The NO is the liturgy of the Roman rite along with the Tridentine. It is just as valid as any of the other rites of the Church ie. Byzantine, Mozarabic, Ambrosian.  All the rites of the RCC are valid.  The Donatists held that the faith of the celebrant affected the validity of the sacrament.  So should we then say that the form of the service affects the validity of the sacrament?   Leo XIII condemned Anglican orders as the form and substance was changed due to the changes in the Edwardine Ordinal.  The NO hasn't changed the form or substance of the rite.  Oh I agree it may not be pretty and it doesn't sound well to the ear but it's what we got and just as valid as the liturgy produced by Pius V.

Carpo-Rusyn

Offline Jakub

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Re:Old and New Catholic Liturgies
« Reply #64 on: November 15, 2003, 07:37:02 PM »
Carpo,

Must be something in the UK, my RSV-CE and Jerusalem Bibles are products of the Brits !

Guess they still supply the colonies.

james
An old timer is a man who's had a lot of interesting experiences -- some of them true.

Grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to tell the difference.

Offline carpo-rusyn

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Re:Old and New Catholic Liturgies
« Reply #65 on: November 15, 2003, 07:48:57 PM »
James

Someone gave me a copy of the LOH used in UK and I found it much better than the one we use here.  The language was more reverent and majestic in comparison.  

CR

Offline Jakub

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Re:Old and New Catholic Liturgies
« Reply #66 on: November 15, 2003, 08:56:05 PM »
Carpo,

I also have one, though its from my hometown, Boston.

Can't figure out why a Traditional RC like me would be more comfortable on a Orthodox Forum, but what the heck, they love me.

james
« Last Edit: November 15, 2003, 09:21:38 PM by Jakub »
An old timer is a man who's had a lot of interesting experiences -- some of them true.

Grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to tell the difference.

Offline carpo-rusyn

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Re:Old and New Catholic Liturgies
« Reply #67 on: November 15, 2003, 09:17:41 PM »
James

I just like the company :)  I guess.  I am a member of some RC boards too but you guys are much more exciting and fractious.

Carpo

Offline carpo-rusyn

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Re:Old and New Catholic Liturgies
« Reply #68 on: November 15, 2003, 09:18:53 PM »
Oh and I used to be EO myself.

CR

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re:Old and New Catholic Liturgies
« Reply #69 on: November 15, 2003, 10:18:24 PM »
Oh and I used to be EO myself.
CR

I respectfully disagree with that statement. You "were" Orthodox for, what, 4 or 5 months?
You never made the trip east, you only visited,C-R, you only visited, just as you are now, sort of. :)

Demetri
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Offline Jakub

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Re:Old and New Catholic Liturgies
« Reply #70 on: November 15, 2003, 10:31:32 PM »
C'mon guys give me a break, just spent 20 mins or so on a Old Calendar site TOC of Greece and found it quite interesting, will need to ck further.

pokoj,
james
An old timer is a man who's had a lot of interesting experiences -- some of them true.

Grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to tell the difference.

Offline carpo-rusyn

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Re:Old and New Catholic Liturgies
« Reply #71 on: November 16, 2003, 10:17:04 AM »
Demetri

Thanks for the "respectful" part of the disagreement.  I respect that.  I actually became a catechumen 3 years ago then was chrismated as O a year ago in ACROD.  Whether my heart ever left the West.....well that is a good question and one I've been asking myself.  One reason I like the board is the "repectful disagreement".  For all the people on this board who seem obsessed with those nasty Latins and their liturgy and their pope there are quite a few who seriously want to enter into dialogue.

CR

Offline Boswell

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Re:Old and New Catholic Liturgies
« Reply #72 on: November 16, 2003, 06:18:50 PM »
LOL, "insult Mass"-that's a pretty good description of the
barely tolerated indult parishes that still use the Tridentine Mass.

Offline Saint Polycarp

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Re:Old and New Catholic Liturgies
« Reply #73 on: November 16, 2003, 11:31:13 PM »
Do my eyes deceive me or are a couple of Latins agreeing that the NO Mass is a no-no on a Orthodox Site ?  

Who knew ?

james

 
What were saying is there is room for improvement. When the Church is ill her children are needed more than ever. I'm one of those loyal kind of folks. I don't give up on those I love and I wouldn't leave the Church just because i like the old liturgy better. Things will improve.
Peace,
Polycarp
Peace