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Author Topic: Old and New Catholic Liturgies  (Read 10651 times) Average Rating: 0
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Brigid of Kildare
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« on: June 28, 2003, 07:09:58 PM »

The Tridentine Mass has made it to the front cover of the British Catholic weekly The Tablet, but what sad reading this article makes.

Brigid


28/06/2003
‘The Rolls-Royce of Masses’
Elena Curti


Devotees of the Tridentine rite are buoyed up with a new optimism. The Tablet’s reporter went to see and was amazed by the style. But what about the substance?

AN UNSEEN woman with a wonderful voice is singing in Latin. A young priest in gold vestments and a biretta is sitting listening at the side of the sanctuary, altar boys and men in scarlet and white are in attendance.

This is the old-rite Mass on Trinity Sunday at St Bede’s Catholic church, Clapham Park, south London, an ordinary suburban church in an ordinary suburban street. There is a Tridentine Mass here every Sunday, but once a month there is a choir and regulars bring food and have lunch together in the parish club next door. They have been welcomed to St Bede’s for eight years and come every Sunday from miles around. Controversially, the church was the scene last month of the first public old-rite confirmations in Britain for over 30 years.

I arrive 15 minutes late and for the first half an hour I am clueless about where we are. The readings are being sung and the wonderful music goes on and on. Then the priest stands up and makes some announcements before delivering the sermon. It is the first and only time I hear him speak in English during the Mass. By way of reminder, he says the Eucharist can be received only by Catholics who are in a state of grace and who have fasted for one hour. At this Mass “it is given kneeling and directly on the tongue”.

There follows the kind of sermon that could have been delivered 100 years ago or more. The priest quotes the Athanasian Creed and St Augustine. The tone is formal. The strange theatrical quality of this Mass continues. Apart from the sung Nicene Creed, the congregation seems to have little to do apart from a few brief responses. They do not exchange a sign of peace. The priest meticulously performs the rituals leading up to Communion. It is at the consecration that the most striking difference with the modern Mass is apparent. In this Mass, the priest has his back to the people throughout. And there is lots more music. The overall effect is that of a very fine concert. I do not feel part of what is happening on the sanctuary.

But then, as members of the Latin Mass Society and their supporters are only too eager to explain afterwards, people like me have much to learn about the old rite. It is, they tell me, our link with the memories of the Apostles, the Real Thing, the Mass of Palestrina and Bach, the Rolls-Royce of Masses, one of the great works of art of human history, the Mass of ages that Pope Pius V told the Council of Trent must never be changed yet was harshly put down by Pope Paul VI in 1969.

Of all these assertions, the most striking is that the old Mass is a living historic link to the first days of Christianity. In abrogating it, Pope Paul VI took the view that the new rite marked a return to the Church’s roots. As he said at the time, of the new rite: “We have rediscovered the most ancient and primitive tradition, the one closest to the origins. This tradition had been obscured in the course of centuries, particularly by the Council of Trent.”

But interest in the old rite is growing, particularly among those too young to remember it the first time around. “It is like learning a different language”, says Gilly, a woman in her 20’s who says she appreciates both the old and new rites. “There are different forms of spirituality. The old rite fosters an extremely profound spiritual sense of the Church as the Mystical Body.”

But, from what I could see, the congregation appeared to be detached from the proceedings, with long periods listening to music or prayers in Latin. When I put this point to the choirmaster, he explained by making an analogy. “Opera is the secular equivalent of this Mass. When you go to the opera you are united in everything that goes on emotionally”, he said.

Why did the priest have to have his back to the people at the consecration? “The priest is facing God and we are facing east, which is traditional. When the priest faces the people he is turning away from God. The old rite is God-centred rather than people-centred”, says Yvonne Windsor of the Latin Mass Society. Several people told me that during the long sung prayers and readings, they were closely following the prayers in their missals. Their concentration, they felt, was aided by the commentaries in the old missal that, unlike the new one, provided profound theological insights.

The regulars at St Bede’s portray themselves as faithful Catholics who are simply pleading for diversity in the liturgy. Such sensitivity stems from the possible confusion with the Society of Pope Pius X - another group which is attached to the old rite but is out of communion with Rome. The Latin Mass Society, which recently celebrated the first Tridentine Mass in the crypt at St Peter’s Basilica in Rome for nearly 20 years, is very much within the Church. As for the new rite, the old-rite aficionados accept it as a fact of life but are critical of the abuses they feel have crept in. One young man mentions a regular weekday Mass he attends in another parish that lasts, he says, just 10 minutes.

An elderly woman who comes regularly to Clapham from Bromley complains about priests who change the words of the liturgy. “It is offensive. It is not part of the Mass. Priests are doing their own thing”, she says. Another woman tells me of one recent occasion when a new-rite Mass was “a shambles”.

“Such little reverence and respect was being shown. There was little awareness of the sacrifice. I was scandalised and distressed”, she recalls.

The stress on sacrifice goes to the heart of these traditionalists’ perception of the Mass. They feel this dimension is often lost in the new rite in favour of the idea of the Eucharist as a shared meal. They point out that the Pope in his recent encyclical on the Eucharist, Ecclesia de Eucharistia, made the same point.

According to Yvonne Windsor, there is nothing in the documents of the Second Vatican Council that contradicts the old rite. For her, it is all a matter of interpretation. But what about collaborative ministry? Under the old rite there are no lay readers or eucharistic ministers. Windsor believes the job of lay people is to support the clergy in the parish. She says turning everyone into what she calls paraclerics devalues them all. She has, she says, noticed that a sort of pride affects lay people who distribute the Eucharist.

“In traditional monarchies you have intermediaries to approach the king. We have priests as intermediaries. We are a hierarchical Church. You don’t have to be involved in the sanctuary to be a proper Catholic. In the old rite where you have lay people they are very much assistants. Their job is to support the clergy in the parish”, she says.

Women are not allowed on the sanctuary in the Tridentine rite. Any lay men admitted must wear clerical robes. No female altar-servers are allowed. As one man explains it, barring girls from serving at the altar is a way of strengthening the priesthood. He assures me they are not breaking any rules. “There is no general permission to allow girl servers. There is a misconception about this. Girls are not allowed unless a bishop says specifically that they may exist”, he explained.

He goes on to give a lengthy explanation about the mystical marriage of Christ to his Church, with the priest representing the bridegroom and the bride the Church, while the altar-servers are attendants of the groom. Someone else tells me that servers were originally seminarians: this is now impossible in most places, but men rather than women are used because there is the possibility they will become priests. “These signs require teaching, otherwise it is easy to misread them as sexism or the denigration of women”, he warns.

I must be singularly wilful because I am unable to read them any other way. Nor could I understand their reasons for downplaying the importance of the sign of peace during the Mass. Windsor felt it was a terrible distraction in its place before the Eucharistic Prayer and caused people to lose their concentration.

Wasn’t it important as a symbol of community? “Your sense of community comes after the Mass”, said Gilly.

We move on to the subject of children at the Mass and I am introduced to an American parishioner who with his wife is educating his six-year-old son at home and plans to do the same with his four younger children. This St Bede’s regular is a member of the Traditional Catholic Family Alliance - a group of 50 families who live in the south of England and who educate their children at home. He says they made the decision after looking at the RE programmes of local Catholic schools.

But, I ask him, are you not worried that your children will not feel part of the local Catholic community? He responds with another question.

“What is more important? That they feel part of their community or they pursue their faith? At the time of Roman persecution, the Christians hid in the catacombs.”

I point out that we are not in ancient Rome now.

In the American father’s view, we are not far from it.

It is impossible to pigeonhole the St Bede’s old-rite congregation. They include the deputy editor of the Spectator, Stuart Reid, who says the Mass gives him a feeling of historical, spiritual and cultural continuity with the rest of Europe. By no means all of the regulars remember the old rite first time around. There are quite a number of young families, many of them French or Belgian. There are also Africans, West Indians, Poles and Filipinos.

The priest himself is French. One parishioner tells me Fr Armand de Malleray FSSP is the most handsome priest in England. The claim is not far-fetched but more to the point, Fr Armand, 31, is the only priest incardinated in the traditional order in England. He was trained in a seminary in Bavaria run by the Fraternity of St Peter, which has a special dispensation from the Pope to confer the sacraments in the old rite. He has never celebrated the new rite and says it is not part of his charism to do so.

Fr Armand decided to become a priest after completing his studies at the Sorbonne. He says he spent some time seeking out a seminary that was “doctrinally reliable”. Though already a conservative at that point, he had been brought up in the new rite and was not aware of liturgical issues. He discovered the fraternity through a friend who had converted to Catholicism and was immediately drawn to it.

“Comparing the new and old missals, I found that the formulations expressed our Catholic faith with more precision, first of all, and linked that with more strength and more beauty than the missal I had been brought up with. So long as the Church lets this tool be used for the safety of my soul and as a time-proven means to save souls in the Church, we should use it.”

Archbishop Michael Bowen of Southwark allows the old rite at St Bede’s and other churches in his diocese. The Latin Mass Society is lobbying hard for other bishops in Britain to show the same level of tolerance. It senses a resurgence of interest in the Tridentine Mass and can quote the encouragement given to devotees by the Pope himself. In addition, the fraternity’s seminaries in Bavaria and Nebraska are both full. Yet several people at St Bede’s tell me there are parts of Britain where it is impossible to find “their” Mass.

Fr Armand makes a special plea. “Different tools are allowed by the Church. I think the old rite is very reliable. Many priests and laity have found it hard to change to the new rite and many have left the Church. We should respect the sensitivity of those that remain. People should not feel threatened by it. In this country, I would like more bishops to listen to the Holy Father and allow more generous application of the motu proprio”.

He is referring to the motu proprio Ecclesia Dei, issued by Pope John Paul II in 1988, which asked bishops to give “wide and generous” application to 1984 directives allowing the old rite to be celebrated in Catholic dioceses.

On the face of it, to deny Fr Armand appears churlish and unkind. That is certainly the view of St Bede’s parish priest, Fr Christopher Basden, who feels the Church should be big enough and inclusive enough to keep these traditionalists inside. Were the preference for the old rite to be merely one of taste and style, I could agree, but the liturgy with its rituals have potent meanings that hark back to days gone by. The Tridentine Mass looked and sounded splendid, but it was a blessed relief to go to my usual service the following Sunday.

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« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2003, 12:33:53 AM »

Brigid,

That description is beautiful, the writer must be quite young and uninformed regarding traditions.

Amen, the Mass should be "God - centered and not people centered. We are not there to worship people, but God the Father.


wonder why I am drawn to the East.

james
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« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2003, 10:56:45 AM »

Well James, I was drawn to the east for the same reasons - a desire for authentic God-centred liturgical worship. I've made the transition to the Divine Liturgy of St John Chrysostom from the Tridentine Mass and am learning to love and appreciate the Byzantine rite more and more. I do miss hearing the Latin of course, but my mood has improved because I've found a Latin translation of the Divine Liturgy at our current site of the month. That's something I've long wanted to have.

 I found the Tablet article flagged up very clearly how the liturgical reform in the Catholic church removed not just a rite and a liturgical language but an entire Catholic culture.  The reporter seemed utterly clueless, I found some of her remarks unbelievably naive, she seemed genuinely surprised that there was no sign of peace or eucharistic ministers.

James, I do indeed understand why you are attracted to the east and I wish you every blessing for your journey,

Brigid
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« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2003, 04:32:44 PM »

On Saturday I was at a wedding which was sung entirely in Latin (except for a few pieces in Church Slavonic and Russian sung at the beginning and the end). It was like a convention of liturgy geeks; the groom is the director of the Capella Antiqua of Washington, and the service music printed in the program used medeival notation (which I can mostly read). The congregation was about equal parts Episcopalians, Roman Catholics, and Orthodox, most of whom didn't make much of an attempt at doing the responses.

Again, I think a lot of the magic here isn't in the words. It's in the caring. I have never yet been to a pre-1979 BCP anglican service, but I've been to many places where the modern rites were executed with care and reverent intent. People who care about liturgy will do liturgy which shows that they care.
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« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2003, 03:29:32 AM »

People who care about liturgy will do liturgy which shows that they care.

Wholly appropriate don't you think, since liturgy means work of the people Smiley

John.
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« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2003, 02:58:40 PM »

On Saturday I was at a wedding which was sung entirely in Latin (except for a few pieces in Church Slavonic and Russian sung at the beginning and the end). It was like a convention of liturgy geeks; the groom is the director of the Capella Antiqua of Washington, and the service music printed in the program used medeival notation (which I can mostly read). The congregation was about equal parts Episcopalians, Roman Catholics, and Orthodox, most of whom didn't make much of an attempt at doing the responses.

Well I think that seems to reflect the particular background of the wedding party themselves. In Britain the Latin Mass Society has a reputation for attracting the middle-class intellectuals, the Papal indult permitting the old rite there is even known as the Agatha Christie Indult because of the links with famous writers. I read a story once in their magazine where the late Cardinal Basil Hume OSB was welcoming a party from the LMS to a special service at Westminster Cathedral and ushered them upstairs to a gallery where he said "You can look down on the rest of us" adding "although I think you already do".

However, in Ireland the majority of those who attend the Tridentine Mass are from more humble backgrounds. When I went here in Belfast the congregation was composed mostly of working-class people with no formal training in Latin or liturgical matters at all. It was not the preserve of what you call 'liturgy geeks' in any way. On the contrary, generations of Irish people, both peasant and urban proletarian, loved the old Latin liturgy.  

I agree that modern liturgy can be done with caring, but, alas, Ireland is now something of a liturgical wasteland. My dad and I ended up going to Mass at a local hospital chaplaincy simply because the liturgy was done there with respect and none of the gimmicks that had taken over at our parish church.

As to the magic being in the words Keble, all you have to do is compare the translations of the prayers from the Mass in the Novus Ordo against the Latin originals and you will see how in many cases the traditional language honouring the transcendent majesty of almighty God has been watered down into meaningless banalities.

Brigid
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« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2003, 10:54:38 PM »

Quote
As to the magic being in the words Keble, all you have to do is compare the translations of the prayers from the Mass in the Novus Ordo against the Latin originals and you will see how in many cases the traditional language honouring the transcendent majesty of almighty God has been watered down into meaningless banalities.

You also have to wonder who on Earth can come up with such bad translations too.  Since when does Et cum spirtu tuo = and also with you ?!  I know there were more of these too.
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« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2003, 07:45:58 AM »

Quote
As to the magic being in the words Keble, all you have to do is compare the translations of the prayers from the Mass in the Novus Ordo against the Latin originals and you will see how in many cases the traditional language honouring the transcendent majesty of almighty God has been watered down into meaningless banalities.

You also have to wonder who on Earth can come up with such bad translations too.  Since when does Et cum spirtu tuo = and also with you ?!  I know there were more of these too.  

Well, I have to guess that "and also with you" is probably our fault. Episcopalians used to say "and with thy spirit", and the impression I get is that they wanted to make the two responses more different in order to help people stay on track as to which rite they were using. (It doesn't work; the meter of the two responses is too close.) A lot of the ICEL decisions on wording are at best puzzling, at worst perverse (for instance, why does the modern version of the Te Deum start so differently from the older version?).

In retrospect the period when a lot of this stuff was written was not a good period for English style (and it isn't getting better-- the "inclusive language" stuff is amazingly bad). We have four modern Eucharistic prayers, which many parishes use seasonally (along with the old rite) because different prayers emphasize different things. The first of the modern prayers is the oldest, and it has the best attributes of modern English; it is succinct and spare. The third is the worst. Like he most modern stuff, it has a lot of responses, all different. It attempts a cosmic sweep (and thus cries out ot be used on Trinity Sunday), but it is rather lumpy. From an English point of view, I would give it a C-.

On he other hand, direct translation of the Latin ordinary tends to be prolix in English. At this point we start to move more obviously into matters of taste. One thing that one can see in the Episcopal BCP is that the place where they have stuck most closely to the older language is in the collects-- indeed, since many of the collects are modern (because of changes to the lectionary), it is notable that these do not stick out.The collects had to be short, and therefore strike a felicitous balance between the turns of phrase of premodern English and the brevity and directness of modern English.

My personal reaction to translations of Eastern rites is that they are inevitably extremely wordy. Episcopal services (if they are paying attention to the rubrics) have a lot of silence in them; my impression of Orthodox services is that everyone has to talk very fast in order to get all the words in. (And if the service is in Slavonic they have to talk faster, because the words have more syllables.) What then happens is a lot of glorious words get said, but in a very banal way. It seems to be that the priest and the people can lift up rather ordinary words to great heights; the third of our ordinary prayer forms is very short and uses almost nothing but Anglo-Saxon words, but it is one of the best forms we have. Conversely, they can rattle off endless streams of syllables to no real meaning.
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« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2003, 11:38:43 AM »

You also have to wonder who on Earth can come up with such bad translations too.  Since when does Et cum spirtu tuo = and also with you ?!  I know there were more of these too.  

Nektarios,

That is a perfect illustration of the problem of the "official" translations of the new rite of the Mass. Here's an excerpt from an excellent article on that very point:


In his analysis of the origin and development of that short dialogue between priest and people, Joseph Jungmann reduced the significance of Et cum spiritu tuo to an everyday greeting. "We render its full meaning," he wrote, "by saying simply, ‘And with you, too,’" adding in a footnote: "This is a Semitism: Spiritus tuus = your person = you" (Mass of the Roman Rite [New York: Benziger Brothers, 1951] Vol. I, 363, n. 36). The International Commission on English in the Liturgy (ICEL), in its desire for directness, simplicity, and the distillation of Semitisms and Latinisms into colloquialisms, sided with Jungmann on this point. In doing so, it swept away a pattern of speech that all literate English-speaking Catholics of the time knew from their missals and, for the brief transitional period after Vatican II, directly employed in the liturgy.

What is the difference between, "And with your spirit" and, "And also with you"? Perhaps indeed it is just a simple greeting and should be rendered simply. However, it is interesting that in the same footnote, Jungmann himself remarks that as early as the fourth century, John Chrysostom was already analogizing the meaning; the latter "referred ‘thy spirit’ to the indwelling Holy Spirit." It is a case in point: A simple greeting had very soon transformed itself into the language of liturgy, a language that by its claim of antiquity and a certain strangeness to the ear, helps to accomplish liturgy’s work—to lift its participants out of everyday discourse into the discourse and life of God.

"And with your spirit": the words themselves do the lifting that we ourselves cannot. At every Mass for the last thirty years, saying the flat and functional "And also with you," I have had to force my own self up, convincing myself over and over again that the liturgy is really the entryway to heaven. The old words could have done this by themselves.

Source: "You" or "Your Spirit"? by Roger F. Repohl, Antiphon Volume Six (2001), Number One

The rest of the article is online at:

 http://www.liturgysociety.org/JOURNAL/volume%206-number%201/volume%206-1-repohl.htm

and I found it worth reading. There are some equally good articles in other back issues at the same site.

Brigid

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« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2003, 12:17:13 PM »

Interesting Brigid, thanks.

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« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2003, 12:34:58 PM »

The curious thing is that I have read that the Sursum Corda itself ("Lift up your hearts") is nothing more than another such expression, and that it really means "Stand up." Yet it remains in the liturgy as is. I have come to mistrust these explanations of liturgical change; the sense I have is that the committees that come up with these things bring cross purposes to the table.

Chrysostom's reading is curious; I found myself slipping into reading this way this morning and then thought, "what sense does it make to say 'the Lord be with the Holy Spirit within you'?"

The other thing is that, after 30 years, we are stuck with it. If you get a mob of milling Episcopalians in a room and someone says loudly, "The Lord be with you", most everyone will say "And also with you" and people will hush. On one level what the exchange really means is "attend to me" and "I am attentive". The precise words may or not be important, but their ritual signal of directing the people into a focused posture is definitely important.

And don't underestimate the impetus simply to mark a change here. Someone in the Episcopal Church remarked about the first point in the 1976 General Convention (which approved the current BCP) in which someone said "The Lord be with you" and got the new response rather than the old; they then knew that the new book would be approved.

If you really want to be appalled, look at the current New Zealand BCP........
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« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2003, 12:43:17 PM »

Dear Brigid,

Your informative posts are increasing my research and study time, of course I'm having trouble with latin, it was 42 years back when I was a altarboy.

james
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« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2003, 04:24:03 PM »

In traditional Western liturgical usage, only a deacon, priest, or bishop would say, "The Lord be with you", because the response "And with thy spirit" referred to the Holy Spirit conferred at ordination.  "And also with you" doesn't convey this meaning nearly as well.  Lay officiants at the daily office were supposed to say "Lord, hear my prayer", to which the congregation would respond, "And let my cry come unto thee".  In Western-rite Orthodoxy we still observe this tradition.  

Rome has taken notice of this matter in Liturgiam Authenticam, which specifically calls for a literal translation of "Et cum spiritu tuo" in section 56.  See http://www.cin.org/docs/liturgiam-authenticam.html

James
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« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2003, 11:31:25 PM »

In traditional Western liturgical usage, only a deacon, priest, or bishop would say, "The Lord be with you", because the response "And with thy spirit" referred to the Holy Spirit conferred at ordination.  "And also with you" doesn't convey this meaning nearly as well.  Lay officiants at the daily office were supposed to say "Lord, hear my prayer", to which the congregation would respond, "And let my cry come unto thee".  In Western-rite Orthodoxy we still observe this tradition.  

I didn't look in my oldest BCPs but the English one does not observe this convention. (Either that, or the rubric is hidden someplace obscure-- the rubrics and text of the English BCP are not entirely consistent with each other).
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« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2003, 10:31:05 AM »

In traditional Western liturgical usage, only a deacon, priest, or bishop would say, "The Lord be with you", because the response "And with thy spirit" referred to the Holy Spirit conferred at ordination.  "And also with you" doesn't convey this meaning nearly as well.  Lay officiants at the daily office were supposed to say "Lord, hear my prayer", to which the congregation would respond, "And let my cry come unto thee".  In Western-rite Orthodoxy we still observe this tradition.  

Rome has taken notice of this matter in Liturgiam Authenticam, which specifically calls for a literal translation of "Et cum spiritu tuo" in section 56.  See http://www.cin.org/docs/liturgiam-authenticam.html

James

FYI, in the Byzantine Rite of the Orthodox Church, the 9th Century Old Church Slavonic has it as: "I duchovi tvojemu" (Ee doo-hoh-vee tvoh-yeh-moo), which, literally translated into English means, "And with your spirit."  This is what I still hear in my church, whether the Divine Liturgy is served in Slavonic or in English.

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« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2003, 03:45:33 PM »

In traditional Western liturgical usage, only a deacon, priest, or bishop would say, "The Lord be with you", because the response "And with thy spirit" referred to the Holy Spirit conferred at ordination.  "And also with you" doesn't convey this meaning nearly as well.  Lay officiants at the daily office were supposed to say "Lord, hear my prayer", to which the congregation would respond, "And let my cry come unto thee".  In Western-rite Orthodoxy we still observe this tradition.  

I didn't look in my oldest BCPs but the English one does not observe this convention. (Either that, or the rubric is hidden someplace obscure-- the rubrics and text of the English BCP are not entirely consistent with each other).


I'm not sure whether this convention is in any BCP rubrics, but Anglo-Catholics traditionally observed it.  See the following article for an explanation of traditional Catholic practice:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05114a.htm

James2
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« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2003, 02:43:23 PM »

For almost a year I have been asking RC priests and other knowledgable people this question, why did'nt they just change the Latin to English and leave the rest alone ?  Was it to simple ? Or was it trashing Tradition totally the main objective ?

I have not heard a rational answer yet.


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« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2003, 02:46:49 PM »

That's a good point James.  I think the best solution would have been two things and two things only: switch to the vernacular and ban low masses (that whispered thing) for high masses that are sung.  Introduce congregational singing and that really would have been a plus.  No need for a "Novus Ordo."

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« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2003, 02:57:42 PM »

The more I study it, the more it bothers me. I get the feeling the evil one has crept in somewhere and is sowing the false seed. I do not walk away from battles, but this unfinished business is delaying my journey East.

james
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« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2003, 06:05:08 PM »

I found this while researching for another forum thread and found it interesting.

http://romanliturgy.net/gamber.html

james
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« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2003, 06:11:21 PM »

James
It's a good book though should be read in it's entirety.  

[The more I study it, the more it bothers me. I get the feeling the evil one has crept in somewhere and is sowing the false seed.]

Have a little more faith in God and a little less in the evil one.  We have Xt's promise that the gates of hell shouldn't prevail against the Church.  It's a struggle but well worth the labor.

Carpo-Rusyn
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« Reply #21 on: November 11, 2003, 06:29:26 PM »

Have a little more faith in God and a little less in the evil one.  We have Xt's promise that the gates of hell shouldn't prevail against the Church.  It's a struggle but well worth the labor.
Carpo-Rusyn

This is true. But you need to understand that the "church" referred to in scripture is the True Church (i.e. the Orthodox Church) and not the Roman Catholic Church.

Unfortunatley, the Roman Catholic Church seems to be SEEKING the gates of hell.
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« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2003, 07:11:11 PM »

Tom

Are you trying to convert me??? Oh that's right that's allowed.  I disagree with

[is the True Church (i.e. the Orthodox Church)]

Obviously.


Carpo-Rusyn

PS I am heartened to see that you did agree with me re having more faith in God, it proves you guys aren't that off the mark.
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« Reply #23 on: November 11, 2003, 07:12:46 PM »

Tom

Another thing.  You know for an Orthodox board you guys spend a lot of time talking about the RCC and her liturgy.  I sense some envy here.

CR
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« Reply #24 on: November 11, 2003, 07:24:59 PM »

Tom

Another thing.  You know for an Orthodox board you guys spend a lot of time talking about the RCC and her liturgy.  I sense some envy here.

CR
You've got to be joking. The latest infestation of the 'Latin'  (new, politically controlled term -PC) propagandists seems to be the catalyst here. Mostly the Latins talking about their own stuff on our boards as far as I can see.
Perhaps a few of us will visit the ByzCath forum and mess in their pool for a while; but their Admin wouldn't stand for it.
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« Reply #25 on: November 11, 2003, 08:04:38 PM »

Demetri

Sorry to hear the Latins are getting you down.  It's an EO board no reason RCs should be talking about their own stuff here I agree.  I've just attempted to set the record straight on a few misconceptions some have had.  I've never really asked if the person who is posting about an RC topic is an RC or EO.  I assumed they were EOs because I couldn't believe an RC would have been so poorly catechized.  

Oh those Latins!!!  Latin imperialism is everywhere.

Oops I'm one of them!

On a serious note I would ask that my fellows RCs not monopolize the conversation talking about things of an RC nature.  This is an EO forum.  Remember Balamand.

Sts Josaphat and Job of Pochaev pray for us.

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« Reply #26 on: November 11, 2003, 08:10:02 PM »

Let's stick to the topic kids, its regarding old / new liturgy, not what Church is the true one.

I will agree, the Orthodox Liturgy is older then the Roman rite.

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« Reply #27 on: November 11, 2003, 08:12:34 PM »

James

 {will agree, the Orthodox Liturgy is older then the Roman rite.}

What?Huh?  How do you get that?

Carpo-Rusyn

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« Reply #28 on: November 11, 2003, 08:14:41 PM »

Was this supposed to be funny? The "Balamand Agreement" is a very divisive topic!

Demetri

Sorry to hear the Latins are getting you down.  It's an EO board no reason RCs should be talking about their own stuff here I agree.  I've just attempted to set the record straight on a few misconceptions some have had.  I've never really asked if the person who is posting about an RC topic is an RC or EO.  I assumed they were EOs because I couldn't believe an RC would have been so poorly catechized.  

Oh those Latins!!!  Latin imperialism is everywhere.

Oops I'm one of them!

On a serious note I would ask that my fellows RCs not monopolize the conversation talking about things of an RC nature.  This is an EO forum.  Remember Balamand.

Sts Josaphat and Job of Pochaev pray for us.

Carpo-Rusyn
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« Reply #29 on: November 11, 2003, 08:16:21 PM »

Innocent

The Balamand comment wasn't meant to be funny.  I think it wrong to try to convert EO's to RC.

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« Reply #30 on: November 11, 2003, 08:23:23 PM »

Was this supposed to be funny? The "Balamand Agreement" is a very divisive topic!



Oh those Latins!!!  Latin imperialism is everywhere.

Oops I'm one of them!

On a serious note I would ask that my fellows RCs not monopolize the conversation talking about things of an RC nature.  This is an EO forum.  Remember Balamand.

Carpo-Rusyn
I agree. Balamand has about as much relevance as the "Agreement on the Filioque", but only to 'them' and some 'failed' Orthodox converts. Our friend, CR, seems to still want to bait these boards. Chumming in another pond might work better.

I believe as far as the liturgies' relative ages are concerned that we will find that parts of both are older than the other. Hence this thread can have no end.
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« Reply #31 on: November 11, 2003, 08:23:36 PM »

Innocent

I picked this up off EWTN in their Q&A Forum:

[BALAMAND STATEMENT:

In 1993 the Vatican signed an historic agreement with the Orthodox Churches, known as the Balamand Agreement. It affirms the following points, among others:

a) the Catholic and Orthodox Churches are "sister Churches":

"14. It is in this perspective that the Catholic Churches and the Orthodox Churches recognize each other as sister Churches, responsible together for maintaining the Church of God in fidelity to the divine purpose, most especially in what concerns unity. According to the words of Pope John Paul II, the ecumenical endeavour of the sister Churches of East and West, grounded in dialogue and prayer, is the search for perfect and total communion which is neither absorption nor fusion but a meeting in truth and love (cf. Slavorum Apostoli, 27)."

b) Catholics and Orthodox should not try to convert one another; rather, the two bodies should work towards corporate reunion:

 18... In this spirit, Pope John Paul II and Ecumenical Patriarch Dirnitrios I together stated clearly: 'We reject every form of proselytism, every attitude which would be or could be perceived to be a lack of respect" (7 Dec 1987)'"

c) The Eastern Orthodox Church, as our sister Church, also offers salvation to its members:

"15. While the inviolable freedom of persons and their obligation to follow the requirements of their conscience remain secure, in the search for re-establishing union there is no question of conversion of people from one Church to the other in order to ensure their salvation."

The Holy Father hopes for a corporate reunion between the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Churches, and prosyletism among the Orthodox would greatly hinder this endeavor, as it has consistently done so in the past.

Pope John Paul II has advocated a policy of full corporate reunion between the Catholic Church and all of the Eastern Orthodox Churches at once. He has rejected the previous approach, which consisted of luring small Orthodox Churches into Catholicism, as this fueled bitterness between Catholics and Orthodox and prolonged the schism.

If an individual Orthodox Christian is convinced of the truths of the Catholic faith, they should follow their conscience. But I as a faithful Catholic am forbidden to actively recruit converts among the Orthodox.]


This was just handy to copy.  I'm sure I can find the full text of the document someplace.

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« Reply #32 on: November 11, 2003, 08:26:19 PM »

Here is the full text.

Quote
oint International Commission for the Theological Dialogue between the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church VIIth Plenary Session, Balamand School of Theology (Lebanon), 17-24 June, 1993: "Uniatism, method of union of the past, and the present search for full communion."

INTRODUCTION

1) At the request of the Orthodox Churches, the normal progression of the theological dialogue with the Catholic Church has been set aside so that immediate attention might be given to the question which is called "uniatism".

2) With regard to the method which has been called "uniatism", it was said at Freising (June 1990) that "we reject it as a method for the search for unity because it is opposed to the common tradition of our Churches".

3) Concerning the Eastern Catholic Churches, it is clear that they, as part of the Catholic Communion, have the right to exist and to act in response to the spritual needs of their faithful.

4) The document prepared at Ariccia by the joint coordinating committee (June 1991) and finished at Balamand (June 1993) states what is our method in the present search for full communion, thus giving the reason for excluding "uniatism" as a method.

5) This present document is composed of two parts:

    1) Ecclesiological principles, and

    2) Practical rules.

ECCLESIOLOGICAL PRINCIPLES

6) The division between the Churches of the East and of the West has never quelled the desire for unity willed by Christ. Rather this situation, which is contrary to the nature of the Church, has often been for many the occasion to become more deeply conscious of the need to acheive this unity, so as to be faithful to the Lord’s commandment.

7) In the course of the centuries various attempt were made to re-establish unity. They sought to achieve this end through different ways, at times conciliar, according to the political, historical, theological and spiritual situation of each period. Unfortunately, none of these efforts succeeded in re-establishing full communion between the Church of the West and the Church of the East, and at times [these efforts] even made oppositions more acute.

Cool In the course of the last four centuries, in various parts of the East, initiatives were taken within certain Churches and impelled by outside elements, to restore communion between the Church of the East and the Church of the West. These initiatives led to the union of certain communities with the See of Rome and brought with them, as a consequence, the breaking of communion with their Mother Churches of the East. This took place not without the interference of extra-ecclesial interests. In this way Eastern Catholic Churches came into existence. And so a situation was created which has become a source of conflicts and of suffering in the first instance for the Orthodox but also for Catholics.

9) Whatever may have been the intention and the authenticity of the desire to be faithful to the commandment of Christ: "that all may be one" expressed in these partial unions with the See of Rome, it must be recognized that the re-establishment of unity between the Church of the East and the Church of the West was not achieved and that the division remains, embittered by these attempts.

10) The situation thus created resulted in fact in tensions and oppositions.

Progressively, in the decades which followed these unions, missionary activity tended to include among its priorities the effort to convert other Christians, individually or in groups, so as "to bring them back" to one’s own Church. In order to legitimize this tendency, a source of proselytism, the Catholic Church developed the theological vision according to which she presented herself as the only one to whom salvation was entrusted. As a reaction, the Orthodox Church, in turn, came to accept the same vision according to which only in her could salvation be found. To assure the salvation of "the separated brethren" it even happened that Christians were rebaptized and that certain requirements of the religious freedom of persons and of their act of faith were forgotten. This perspective was one to which that period showed little sensitivity.

11) On the other hand certain civil authorities made attempts to bring Eastern Catholics back to the Church of their fathers. To achieve this end, they did not hesitate, when the occasion was given, to use unacceptable means.

12) Because of the way in which Catholics and Orthodox once again consider each other in relationship to the mystery of the Church and discover each other once again as Sister Churches, this form of "missionary apostolate" described above, and which has been called "uniatism", can no longer be accepted either as a method to be followed nor as a model of the unity our Churches are seeking.

13) In fact, especially since the Pan-Orthodox Conferences and the Second Vatican Council, the rediscovery and the giving again of proper value to the Church as communion, both on the part of Orthodox and of Catholics, has radically altered perspectives and thus attitudes. On each side it is recognized that what Christ has entrusted to His Church—profession of apostolic faith, participation in the same sacraments, above all the one priesthood celebrating the one sacrifice of Christ, the apostolic succession of bishops—cannot be considered the exclusive property of one of our Churches. In this context it is clear that rebaptism must be avoided.

14) It is in this perspective that the Catholic Churches and the Orthodox Churches recognize each other as Sister Churches, responsible together for maintaining the Church of God in fidelity to the divine purpose, most especially in what concerns unity. According to the words of Pope John Paul II, the ecumenical endeavor of the Sister Churches of East and West, grounded in dialogue and prayer, is the search for perfect and total communion which is neither absorption nor fusion but a meeting in truth and love (cf. Slavorum Apostoli, n. 27).

15) While the inviolable freedom of persons and their obligation to follow the requirements of their conscience remains secure, in the search for re-establishing unity there is no question of conversion of people from one Church to the other in order to ensure their salvation. There is a question of achieving together the will of Christ for His own and the design of God for His Church by means of a common quest by the Churches for a full accord on the content of the faith and its implications. This effort is being carried on in the current theological dialogue. The present document is a necessary stage in this dialogue.

16) The Eastern Catholic Churches, who have desired to re-establish full communion with the See of Rome and have remained faithful to it, have the rights and obligations which are connected with this communion. The principles determining their attitude towards Orthodox Churches are those which have been stated by the Second Vatican Council and have been put into practice by the Popes who have clarified the practical consequences flowing from these principles in various documents published since then. These Churches, then, should be inserted, on both local and universal levels, into the dialogue of love, in mutual respect and reciprocal trust found once again, and enter into the theological dialogue, with all its practical implications.

17) In this atmosphere, the considerations already presented and the practical guidelines which follow, insofar as they will be effectively received and faithfully observed, are such as to lead to a just and definitive solution to the difficulties which these Eastern Catholic Churches present to the Orthodox Church.

18) Towards this end, Pope Paul VI affirmed in his address at the Phanar in July 1967: "It is on the heads of the Churches, of their hierarchy, that the obligation rests to guide the Churches along the way that leads to finding full communion again. They ought to do this by recognizing and respecting each other as pastors of that part of the flock of Christ entrusted to them, by taking care for the cohesion and growth of the people of God, and avoiding everything that could scatter it or cause confusion in its ranks" (Tomos Agapis, n. 172). In this spirit Pope John Paul II and Ecumenical Patriarch Dimitrios I together stated clearly: "We reject every form of proselytism, every attitude which would be or could be perceived to be a lack of respect" (7 December 1987).

PRACTICAL RULES

19) Mutual respect between the Churches which find themselves in difficult situations will increase appreciably in the measure that they will observe the following practical rules.

20) These rules will not resolve the problems which are worrying us unless each of the parties concerned has a will to pardon, based on the Gospel and, within the context of a constant effort for renewal, accompanied by the unceasing desire to seek the full communion which existed for more than a thousand years between our Churches. It is here that the dialogue of love must be present with a continually renewed intensity and perseverance which alone can overcome reciprocal lack of understanding and which is the necessary climate for deepening the theological dialogue that will permit arriving at full communion.

21) The first step to take is to put and end to everything that can foment division, contempt, and hatred between the Churches. For this the authorities of the Catholic Church will assist the Eastern Catholic Churches and their communities so that they themselves may prepare full communion between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. The authorities of the Orthodox Church will act in a similar way towards their faithful. In this way it will be possible to take care of the extremely complex situation that has been created in Eastern Europe, at the same time in charity and in justice, both as regards Catholics and Orthodox.

22) Pastoral activity in the Catholic Church, Latin as well as Eastern, no longer aims at having the faithful of one Church pass over to the other; that is to say, it no longer aims at proselytizing among the Orthodox. It aims at answering the spiritual needs of its own faithful and it has no desire for expansion at the expense of the Orthodox Church. Within these perspectives, so that there will no longer be room for mistrust and suspicion, it is necessary that there be reciprocal exchanges of information about various pastoral projects and that thus cooperation between bishops and all those with responsibilities in our Churches can be set in motion and develop.

23) The history of the relations between the Orthodox Church and the Eastern Catholic Churches has been marked by persecutions and sufferings. Whatever may have been these sufferings and their causes, they do not justify any triumphalism; no one can glory in them or draw an argument from them to accuse or disparage the other Church. God alone knows His own witnesses. Whatever the past may have been, it must be left to the mercy of God, and all the energies of the Churches should be directed so that the present and the future conform better to the will of Christ for His own.

24) It will also be necessary—on the part of both Churches— that the bishops and all those with pastoral reposibilities in the Churches scrupulously respect the religious liberty of the faithful. In turn, the faithful must be able to express themselves for this purpose. In fact, particularly in situations of conflict, religious liberty requires that the faithful should be able to express their opinion and to decide without pressure from outside if they wish to be in communion either with the Orthodox Church or with the Catholic Church. Religious freedom would be violated when, under the cover of financial assistance, the faithful of one Church would be attracted to the other, by promises, for example, of education and material benefits that may be lacking in their own Church. In this context, it will be necessary that social assistance, as well as every form of philanthropic activity, be organized with common agreement so as to avoid creating new suspicions.

25) Furthermore, the necessary respect for Christian freedom— one of the most precious gifts received from Christ—should not become an occasion for undertaking a pastoral project which may also involve the faithful of other Churches, without previous consultation with the pastors of these Churches. Not only should every form of pressure, of any kind whatsoever, be excluded, but respect for consciences, motivated by an authentic exigency of faith, is one of the principles guiding the pastoral concern of those responsible in the two Churches and should be the object of their common reflection (cf. Galations 5:13).

26) That is why it is necessary to seek and to engage in an open dialogue, which in the first place should be between those who have responsibilities for the Churches at the local level. Those in charge of the communities concerned should create joint local commissions or make effective those which already exist, for finding solutions to concrete problems and seeing that these solutions are applied in truth and love, in justice and peace. If agreement cannot be reached on the local level, the question should be brought to mixed commissions established by higher authorities.

27) Suspicion would disappear more easily if the two parties were to condemn violence wherever communities of one Church use it against communities of a Sister Church. As requested by His Holiness Pope John Paul II in his letter of 31 May 1991, it is necessary that all violence and every kind of pressure be absolutely avoided in order that freedom of conscience be respected. It is the task of those in charge of communities to assist their faithful to deepen their loyalty towards their own Church and towards its traditions and to teach them to avoid not only violence, be that physical, verbal or moral, but also all that could lead to contempt for other Christians and to a counter-witness, completely ignoring the work of salvation which is reconciliation in Christ.

28) Faith in sacramental reality implies a respect for the liturgical celebrations of the other Church. The use of violence to occupy a place of worship contradicts this conviction. On the contrary, this conviction sometimes requires that the celebration of other Churches should be made easier by putting at their disposal, by common agreement, one’s own church for alternate celebration at different times in the same building. Still more, the evangelical ethos requires that statements or manifestations which are likely to perpetuate a state of conflict and hinder the dialogue be avoided. Does not St. Paul exhort us to welcome one another as Christ welcomed us, for the glory of God (Romans 15:7)?

29) Bishops and priests have the duty before God to respect the authority which the Holy Spirit has given to the bishops and priests of the other Church and for that reason to avoid interfering in the spiritual life of the faithful of that Church. When cooperation becomes necessary for the good of the faithful, it is then required that those responsible come to an agreement among themselves, establish for this mutual assistance clear principles which are known to all, and act subsequently with frankness, clarity, and with respect for the sacramental discipline of the other Church.

In this context, to avoid all misunderstanding and to develop confidence between the two Churches, it is necessary that Catholic and Orthodox bishops of the same territory consult with each other before establishing Catholic pastoral projects which imply the creation of new structures in regions which traditionally form part of the jurisdiction of the Orthodox Church, in view to avoid parallel pastoral activities which would risk rapidly degenerating into rivalry or even conflicts.

30) To pave the way for future relations between the two Churches, passing beyond the out-dated ecclesiology of return to the Catholic Church connected with the problem which is the object of this document, special attention will be given to the preparation of future priests and of all those who, in any way, are involved in an apostolic activity carried on in a place where the other Church traditionally has its roots. Their education should be objectively positive with respect to the other Church. First of all, everyone should be informed of the apostolic succession of the other Church and the authenticity of its sacramental life. One should also offer all a correct and comprehensive knowledge of history aiming at a historiography of the two Churches which is in agreement and even may be common. In this way, the dissipation of prejudices will be helped, and the use of history in a polemical manner will be avoided. This presentation will lead to an awareness that faults leading to separation belong to both sides, leaving deep wounds on each side.

31) The admonition of the Apostle Paul to the Corinthians (I Corinthians 6:17) will be recalled. It recommends that Christians resolve their differences through fraternal dialogue, thus avoiding recourse to the intervention of the civil authorities for a practical solution to the problems which arise between Churches or local communities. This applies particularly to the possession or return of ecclesiastical property. These solutions should not be based only on past situations or rely solely on general juridical principles, but they must also take into account the complexity of present realities and local circumstances.

32) It is in this spirit that it will be possible to meet in common the task of re-evangelization of our secularized world. Efforts will also be made to give objective news to the mass-media, especially to the religious press, in order to avoid tendentious and misleading information.

33) It is necessary that the Churches come together in order to express gratitude and respect towards all, known and unknown, bishops, priests or faithful, Orthodox, Catholic whether Eastern or Latin—who suffered, confessed their faith, witnessed their fidelity to the Church, and, in general, towards all Christians, without discrimination, who underwent persecutions. Their sufferings call us to unity and, on our part, to give common witness in reponse to the prayer of Christ "that all may be one, so that the world may believe" (John 17:21).

34) The International Joint Commission for Theological Dialogue between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church, at its plenary meeting in Balamand, strongly recommends that these practical rules be put into practice by our Churches, including the Eastern Catholic Churches who are called to take part in this dialogue which should be carried on in the serene atmosphere necessary for its progress, towards the re-establishment of full communion.

35) By excluding for the future all proselytism and all desire for expansion by Catholics at the expense of the Orthodox Church, the commission hopes that it has overcome the obstacles which impelled certain autocephalous Churches to suspend their participation in the theological dialogue and that the Orthodox Church will be able to find itself together again for continuing the theological work already so happily begun.

Balamand (Lebanon), 23 June 1993

BALAMAND PARTICIPANTS

The following delegates participated in the Seventh Plenary Session of the Joint International Commission for the Theological Dialogue between the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church, held at Balamand School of Theology, Lebanon, 17-24 June 1993.

From the Eastern Orthodox Churches:

Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople

His Eminence Archbishop Stylianos of Australia Orthodox Co-President of the Joint International Commission

Patriarchate of Alexandria

His Eminence Metropolitan Dionysios of Nubia

Professor Constantine Patelos

Patriarchate of Antioch

His Eminence Metropolitan George of Byblos and Botrys

Father Archimandrite Youhanna (Yazigi)

Church of Russia

Father Hegumen Nestor (Zhilyaev)

Church of Romania

His Eminence Metropolitan Antonie of Transylvania

Father Archpriest Dumitru Radu

Church of Cyprus

His Eminence Metropolitan Chrysanthos of Morphou

Professor Macarius Papachristophorou

Church of Poland

Father Hieromonk Barsanuphius (Doroszkiewicz)

Church of Albania

Professor Theodoros Papapavli

Church of Finland

His Grace Bishop Ambrosius of Joensocu

Executive Secretary:

His Eminence Metropolitan Spyridon of Italy

[The Patriarchate of Jerusalem, and the Churches of Georgia, Serbia, Bulgaria, Greece, and Czechoslovakia were not represented.]
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« Reply #33 on: November 11, 2003, 08:26:49 PM »

Demetri

I don't know what,

[Our friend, CR, seems to still want to bait these boards. Chumming in another pond might work better.]

means??

As far as we know we don't know each other yet you seem to have some knowledge that I am working from a hidden agenda??

What on earth is "chumming"

CR
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« Reply #34 on: November 11, 2003, 08:28:04 PM »

Innocent

Thanks for the full text.

CR
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« Reply #35 on: November 11, 2003, 08:29:03 PM »

Chumming is when you put blood in the water to get sharks into a feeding frenzy. Makes them more likely to bit on your bait when you cast it out. Its a fishing term.
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« Reply #36 on: November 11, 2003, 08:34:29 PM »

Oh so that's what that means.  I thought it was something rude.  Honestly though why would I want to get evryone into a feeding frenzy?  I thought Balamand was a good thing.

Now here I need someone to educate me.

CR
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« Reply #37 on: November 11, 2003, 08:38:15 PM »

Chumming is dumping/spreading different types of bait to attract the target species.

james

Helmsman where are you ?
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« Reply #38 on: November 11, 2003, 08:42:04 PM »

AHH I did not Disable smiles! Now my 8 looks  Cool.
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« Reply #39 on: November 11, 2003, 08:48:22 PM »

Well Innocent has educated me on Balamand so I shall in future refrain from raising this issue.

Khouria Matthews-Green has authored a little list of things you should know about the EO Church and this should be on the list.

Mea Culpa
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« Reply #40 on: November 12, 2003, 12:02:39 AM »

I think the 1965 Missal was a great attempt to include both a God Centered worship, a true latin liturgy with Apostolic origin, and people's participation, just like the Eastern liturgy.

Then, the next reform went too far away I believe, and rampant hetherodoxy and liberalism followed the destruction of the Roman liturgy. How sad.

The so called "Ecumenical mass" has made Church unity more difficult now, given the enormous distance between modernist Rome and the Orthodox east.
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« Reply #41 on: November 12, 2003, 10:33:57 AM »

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I think the 1965 Missal was a great attempt...

The 1965 Missal was fine.

Quote
Then, the next reform went too far away I believe, and rampant hetherodoxy and liberalism followed the destruction of the Roman liturgy. How sad.

Right. Everything after the 1965 changes never should have happened.

Quote
The so called "Ecumenical mass" has made Church unity more difficult now, given the enormous distance between modernist Rome and the Orthodox east.

Too few people say it, but true.

'Ecumenical Mass'? Never heard it called that but I think I know what you mean.
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« Reply #42 on: November 12, 2003, 10:56:01 AM »


You've got to be joking. The latest infestation of the 'Latin'  (new, politically controlled term -PC) propagandists seems to be the catalyst here. Mostly the Latins talking about their own stuff on our boards as far as I can see.
Perhaps a few of us will visit the ByzCath forum and mess in their pool for a while; but their Admin wouldn't stand for it.
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Quote

So that is whats going on here.  I noticed a big increase over the last few weeks of discussion of Latin topics.  I did notice some new posters defending the papacy and so on.  I left other forums to get away from this.

I do welcome all new members to the forum.  For me all these postings on Latin topics seems to be a little too much.  The happenings and theology of the Roman Church do not interest me much at all.  The only purpose in bringing them up would be to discuss some common ground, or to defend Orthodoxy under attack by Rome, or to help a convert better understand the Orthodox Church.  So far, I have not seen too much common ground and Orthodoxy is not under attack.  So I think it is best we help the cathechumens out and stay focused on their questions.

Maybe there should be a Orthodox Catholic debate room created, where all of this can go on with "no holds barred".  I will know then to avoid it, since debates on the Roman Church are doing me no spiritual benefit.
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« Reply #43 on: November 12, 2003, 10:59:50 AM »

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Maybe there should be a Orthodox Catholic debate room created, where all of this can go on with "no holds barred".  I will know then to avoid it, since debates on the Roman Church are doing me no spiritual benefit.

There already is one.
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« Reply #44 on: November 12, 2003, 12:00:35 PM »


There already is one.

You are correct, I was just being a little sarcastic.  Should have added the  Smiley
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« Reply #45 on: November 12, 2003, 12:05:34 PM »

This topic was createdin the Liturgy board by Bridgid in June 03 , and you move it now ?

Too hard for people to figure out the subject of discussion , eh ?

Sheep dip I say.


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« Reply #46 on: November 12, 2003, 12:15:03 PM »

Quote
This topic was createdin the Liturgy board by Bridgid in June 03 , and you move it now ?

Too hard for people to figure out the subject of discussion , eh ?

Sheep dip I say.


james

I respond to complaints from users. No-one has complained about it until today so I didn't touch it. Are you complaining too?

Bobby
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« Reply #47 on: November 12, 2003, 12:31:13 PM »

Big Bob Bobby,

Nope. Don't care much for whiners, though.


james

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« Reply #48 on: November 12, 2003, 12:45:43 PM »

Join you in that last comment James - and some of us have been herre for a looooooooooooooooooong time.
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« Reply #49 on: November 13, 2003, 12:59:21 AM »

For almost a year I have been asking RC priests and other knowledgable people this question, why did'nt they just change the Latin to English and leave the rest alone ?  Was it to simple ? Or was it trashing Tradition totally the main objective ?

I have not heard a rational answer yet.


james

The reason is that The Church wanted to change the focus of The Mass some inorder to have the people of God participate more in the liturgy. Traditions have changed over time. Change is nothing new and the focus of The Liturgy over 2000 years has changed at various times.
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« Reply #50 on: November 13, 2003, 01:26:08 AM »

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The reason is that The Church wanted to change the focus of The Mass some

The Church? The Eastern rites of your communion didn't 'change the focus of the Mass', thank heavens. ISTM that perhaps unconsciously you think Catholic simply equals Roman.

Quote
inorder to have the people of God participate more in the liturgy. Traditions have changed over time. Change is nothing new and the focus of The Liturgy over 2000 years has changed at various times.

Evasion. A nonanswer. Again, simply translating the services would have done that. No, some folks made bad mistakes in prudential judgement and some wanted to trash tradition, as Jakub wrote.

P.S. Hope Brigid of Kildare is OK. ISTM the board hasn't heard from her lately.
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« Reply #51 on: November 13, 2003, 08:02:41 AM »

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The reason is that The Church wanted to change the focus of The Mass some

The Church? The Eastern rites of your communion didn't 'change the focus of the Mass', thank heavens. ISTM that perhaps unconsciously you think Catholic simply equals Roman.

The liturgical changes were made via an Ecumenical Council of The Catholic Church and included all who are in communion with the Pope.

Quote
inorder to have the people of God participate more in the liturgy. Traditions have changed over time. Change is nothing new and the focus of The Liturgy over 2000 years has changed at various times.

Evasion. A nonanswer. Again, simply translating the services would have done that. No, some folks made bad mistakes in prudential judgement and some wanted to trash tradition, as Jakub wrote.

No evasion. That is the reason given by the fathers who decided to make the changes.  I prefered Latin because it united all of us in one common liturgical language. But I have read some materials regarding what changes were made and why. Technically I agree with the reasons. But I have mixed feelings about the results.
Peace,
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P.S. Hope Brigid of Kildare is OK. ISTM the board hasn't heard from her lately.
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« Reply #52 on: November 13, 2003, 10:37:57 AM »

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The liturgical changes were made via an Ecumenical Council of The Catholic Church and included all who are in communion with the Pope.

No.  It's been a while since I've read the documents, but the council did not make any liturgical changes as I remember, only recommendations.  There is nothing in Sacrosanctum Concilium that mandated anything like the Novus Ordo.  Did the council authorise a little cleaning up?  Of course.  But I can't see any justification from my reading of the Vatican II documents for going so far as the Novus Ordo.  IMO, the 1965 Missal was perfectly in line with what SC intended; why it was trashed after a few years in favour of the NO, I have no idea.
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« Reply #53 on: November 13, 2003, 12:02:16 PM »

Quote

P.S. Hope Brigid of Kildare is OK. ISTM the board hasn't heard from her lately.

I was thinking that just the other day.  Dows anyone know her or know if she's OK?  Sinjin has been missing too. I know Linus was very busy.  But I miss some of our comrades.

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« Reply #54 on: November 13, 2003, 12:05:09 PM »

Quote
The liturgical changes were made via an Ecumenical Council of The Catholic Church and included all who are in communion with the Pope.

No.  It's been a while since I've read the documents, but the council did not make any liturgical changes as I remember, only recommendations.  There is nothing in Sacrosanctum Concilium that mandated anything like the Novus Ordo.  Did the council authorise a little cleaning up?  Of course.  But I can't see any justification from my reading of the Vatican II documents for going so far as the Novus Ordo.  IMO, the 1965 Missal was perfectly in line with what SC intended; why it was trashed after a few years in favour of the NO, I have no idea.  

I'm not sure either to be honest. I thought the council came up with the guidelines that they intended to use for any change. If there was some major theological problem one would think that bishops all over the world would have had a meltdown. Yet I'm not aware of any widespread concern by the bishops.
No doubt there is plenty of room for improvement. Personally I'm hoping the next Pope will call another Ecumenical council to of reexamine the whole situation. Would be nice if it included The Orthodox too.
Peace,
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« Reply #55 on: November 14, 2003, 07:20:40 PM »

Polycarp

Another Council!!!???!!!  We need to work on everything that V2 gave us.

[No doubt there is plenty of room for improvement]

Hopefully the new missal issued by JP2 will help and the new group doing the translation into English will be a little more conservative

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« Reply #56 on: November 14, 2003, 07:46:53 PM »

--The Novus Ordo Missae was definitely not issued by the Council.  Thank you, Mor E.

--Polycarp, Catholics are not obliged to believe that the Church's prudential decisions were good or correct or beneficial.  In the history of the Church, many bad decisions were made.  Even in the allegedly halcyon "pre-1000" Church, bad decisions were made.  E.g. the Second Council of Constantinople, which condemned the writings of three men (two of whom were closely involved in Chalcedon) as a conciliatory gesture to the Monophysites.  The results were disastrous in both East and West, provoking more schisms, etc.

Keep in mind that the Church's infallibility does not cover prudential judgments.  I think in the end we're gonna have to just admit that the Novus Ordo has been, in practice, an unmitigated disaster.  JMHO.

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« Reply #57 on: November 14, 2003, 11:00:06 PM »

--The Novus Ordo Missae was definitely not issued by the Council.  Thank you, Mor E.

--Polycarp, Catholics are not obliged to believe that the Church's prudential decisions were good or correct or beneficial.  In the history of the Church, many bad decisions were made.  Even in the allegedly halcyon "pre-1000" Church, bad decisions were made.  E.g. the Second Council of Constantinople, which condemned the writings of three men (two of whom were closely involved in Chalcedon) as a conciliatory gesture to the Monophysites.  The results were disastrous in both East and West, provoking more schisms, etc.

Keep in mind that the Church's infallibility does not cover prudential judgments.  I think in the end we're gonna have to just admit that the Novus Ordo has been, in practice, an unmitigated disaster.  JMHO.

LatinTrad


I agree.
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« Reply #58 on: November 14, 2003, 11:40:36 PM »

[the Novus Ordo has been, in practice, an unmitigated disaster.  JMHO.]

I tend to agree but we're stuck with it by and large so where do we go from here?  (For those of us who don't want to go East.)

[Even in the allegedly halcyon "pre-1000" Church, bad decisions were made.  E.g. the Second Council of Constantinople, which condemned the writings ]

People do tend to look back on the halcyon days of the pre-1054 Church, or the Medieval Church or the pre-Vatican 2 Church and canonize these periods.  But if you really looked at these periods there were really some messed up things going on.

Isn't it amazing though that through all the bad decisions the Church endured and grew!  We've survived some pretty bad decisions by those in power in the Church and those outside the Church we can get through this little patch.

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« Reply #59 on: November 15, 2003, 01:48:55 AM »

Do my eyes deceive me or are a couple of Latins agreeing that the NO Mass is a no-no on a Orthodox Site ?  

Who knew ?

james

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« Reply #60 on: November 15, 2003, 10:46:31 AM »

James

The NO a "no-no"??  Not at all.  The NO has been translated poorly into English here in the states.  (The translation used in the UK by the way is better) The ceremonial is nothing like the grandeur of the Latin mass.  It has caused some problems around giving the faithful the wrong idea of what the Church is.

BUT..............It is a valid liturgy approved by the Vicar of Christ (I can say this as we are in the O-C section) for use in the RCC.  What happens in the most glourious Divine Liturgy at any EO church replete with icons beautiful vestments and no pews also happens in a Mass celebrated in a gymnasium by an RC priest  with bare walls, folding chairs with the priest wearing a chasuble with a butterfly on it.  

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« Reply #61 on: November 15, 2003, 11:39:12 AM »

<<(The translation used in the UK by the way is better) >>

Hooray - thank goodness we are doing something rite Wink

However it has to be admitted that we are all waiting for new translations to come out of Rome since the powers that be there decided that the Committee had done a bad job of translation in the first place.
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« Reply #62 on: November 15, 2003, 04:58:50 PM »

Quote
BUT..............It is a valid liturgy approved by the Vicar of Christ (I can say this as we are in the O-C section) for use in the RCC.  What happens in the most glourious Divine Liturgy at any EO church replete with icons beautiful vestments and no pews also happens in a Mass celebrated in a gymnasium by an RC priest  with bare walls, folding chairs with the priest wearing a chasuble with a butterfly on it.


I understand 'where you're coming from' emotionally, etc., but at least for argument's sake, perhaps this isn't so.

1. Re: 'the Vicar of Christ', Catholicism is not the cult of the Pope (traditionalists get this; conservative and charismatic types don't). He makes mistakes in prudential judgement. The EWTN phenom of Pope worship (papolatry) is decidedly modern - 'very Vatican II'.

2. If one takes the Eastern Rites seriously, as I think you do even though you are Roman Rite, then one can argue that if the Catholic Church is the Church, that means at least one of its rites will be 'valid', not necessarily all of them and not necessarily the biggest one (as 98% of Catholics are Roman). OK, at least for argument's sake, the NO could be completely bogus - bread thou art, and bread thou shalt remain ('Eeeeeat this breeeeeead, driiiiiiink this cuuuuuup') - but the seven Eastern Rites (used by about 20 small Eastern Catholic churches) and the barely tolerated 'insult Mass' (Tridentine) would fulfil this.
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« Reply #63 on: November 15, 2003, 06:07:35 PM »

Serge

[ Re: 'the Vicar of Christ', Catholicism is not the cult of the Pope ]

I quite agree.  But the pope is the guardian par excellance of the deposit of faith and the final word in what is and is not "kosher".  He can make mistakes in judgement and has in the past.  Sometimes though we shouldn't look for smole where there is no fire.  Was the NO a mistake?  I don't know.  I think it could've been better done in translation and other areas but it was a product of the Church.

[bread thou art, and bread thou shalt remain]

Yah know I'd like to know the source for this?  I know it was supposedly uttered by a Renaissance cleric(who is most probably still in purgatory, if he ever said it) but where is it in writing or is it an ecclesiastical myth.

I think we run the risk of a neo-Donatism here.  The NO is the liturgy of the Roman rite along with the Tridentine. It is just as valid as any of the other rites of the Church ie. Byzantine, Mozarabic, Ambrosian.  All the rites of the RCC are valid.  The Donatists held that the faith of the celebrant affected the validity of the sacrament.  So should we then say that the form of the service affects the validity of the sacrament?   Leo XIII condemned Anglican orders as the form and substance was changed due to the changes in the Edwardine Ordinal.  The NO hasn't changed the form or substance of the rite.  Oh I agree it may not be pretty and it doesn't sound well to the ear but it's what we got and just as valid as the liturgy produced by Pius V.

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« Reply #64 on: November 15, 2003, 07:37:02 PM »

Carpo,

Must be something in the UK, my RSV-CE and Jerusalem Bibles are products of the Brits !

Guess they still supply the colonies.

james
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« Reply #65 on: November 15, 2003, 07:48:57 PM »

James

Someone gave me a copy of the LOH used in UK and I found it much better than the one we use here.  The language was more reverent and majestic in comparison.  

CR
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« Reply #66 on: November 15, 2003, 08:56:05 PM »

Carpo,

I also have one, though its from my hometown, Boston.

Can't figure out why a Traditional RC like me would be more comfortable on a Orthodox Forum, but what the heck, they love me.

james
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« Reply #67 on: November 15, 2003, 09:17:41 PM »

James

I just like the company Smiley  I guess.  I am a member of some RC boards too but you guys are much more exciting and fractious.

Carpo
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« Reply #68 on: November 15, 2003, 09:18:53 PM »

Oh and I used to be EO myself.

CR
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« Reply #69 on: November 15, 2003, 10:18:24 PM »

Oh and I used to be EO myself.
CR

I respectfully disagree with that statement. You "were" Orthodox for, what, 4 or 5 months?
You never made the trip east, you only visited,C-R, you only visited, just as you are now, sort of. Smiley

Demetri
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« Reply #70 on: November 15, 2003, 10:31:32 PM »

C'mon guys give me a break, just spent 20 mins or so on a Old Calendar site TOC of Greece and found it quite interesting, will need to ck further.

pokoj,
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« Reply #71 on: November 16, 2003, 10:17:04 AM »

Demetri

Thanks for the "respectful" part of the disagreement.  I respect that.  I actually became a catechumen 3 years ago then was chrismated as O a year ago in ACROD.  Whether my heart ever left the West.....well that is a good question and one I've been asking myself.  One reason I like the board is the "repectful disagreement".  For all the people on this board who seem obsessed with those nasty Latins and their liturgy and their pope there are quite a few who seriously want to enter into dialogue.

CR
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« Reply #72 on: November 16, 2003, 06:18:50 PM »

LOL, "insult Mass"-that's a pretty good description of the
barely tolerated indult parishes that still use the Tridentine Mass.
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« Reply #73 on: November 16, 2003, 11:31:13 PM »

Do my eyes deceive me or are a couple of Latins agreeing that the NO Mass is a no-no on a Orthodox Site ?  

Who knew ?

james

 
What were saying is there is room for improvement. When the Church is ill her children are needed more than ever. I'm one of those loyal kind of folks. I don't give up on those I love and I wouldn't leave the Church just because i like the old liturgy better. Things will improve.
Peace,
Polycarp
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