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Author Topic: Conversions in Philipines  (Read 83375 times) Average Rating: 5
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Theognosis
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« Reply #90 on: April 19, 2008, 11:29:22 PM »

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When you say "WE" are you speaking in behalf of  Greek Vicar Nikitas and the more or less 500 Orthodox Filipinos under the Ecumenical Patriarchate or are you speaking only on your own behalf and the more or less than 10 members of the local "Diakonia" in the Annunciation Parish?

I am speaking for myself as far as my posts on this thread are concerned.  When I said "we", I intend to gather formal support from the laity, not just from the Readers, i.e. the Diakonia.  Well, assuming that I do otherwise, the voice of 10 Orthodox Christians should carry more weight than the voice of 6,000 Evangelicals who want to become Orthodox on their own terms.

Quote
The voice of the few members of the "local diakonia" is NOT the voice of the more or less 500 Orthodox Filipinos under the Ecumenical Patriarchate.  You should visit the Theotokos Orthodox Church  in Bajada, Masbate to find out what your  more or less 350 active Filipino Orthodox brethren under the Ecumenical Patriarchate are actually doing there. Please see for yourself and FYI, your brethren in Bajada, Masbate are doing these things with the special dispensation from  the Hierarchs of the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople.

The Theotokos Orthodox Church in Brgy. Bajada, Cataingan, Masbate celebrates the DIVINE LITURGY OF ST. JOHN CHRYSOSTOM every Sunday.  Check the schedule of services at www.ocp.uni.cc.



The Theotokos Orthodox Church in Brgy. Bajada, Cataingan, Masbate is a parish of the Orthodox Metropolitanate of Hong Kong and South East Asia which is under the jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople. It is the only Orthodox Church in Masbate and one of the three canonical Orthodox parishes in the Philippines that is recognized by other Orthodox Patriarchates and Metropolitanates around the world.

The Theotokos Day Care School and Kindergarten in Bajada, Cataingan, Masbate is run by the Abbess and the three monastic nuns of the Theotokos Orthodox Monastery. It serves 30 to 50 students between the ages of 4 and 6. They are taught in a warm loving Christian environment and excel and develop at a faster pace than children at other schools in the area.

Abbess: Mother Superior Theodoti Atibagos
Address: Bgy. Bajada, Cataingan, 5405 Masbate
Telephone: (632) 431-5863

Sunday Services
Matins: 8:30 am and Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom (Scheduled)

Wednesday Services
Paraklesis to the Theotokos: 5:00 pm





As you can see, there are no "modified" evangelical rites in Masbate.  Hence, your statement that they are "doing these things" is totally without basis.

BTW filipiniana, for reasons of transparency, I would like to know your Christened name.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2008, 11:38:05 PM by Theognosis » Logged
PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #91 on: April 19, 2008, 11:39:56 PM »

BTW filipiniana, for reasons of transparency, I would like to know your Christened name.
Why do you want to know?
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« Reply #92 on: April 19, 2008, 11:41:24 PM »

The voice of the Orthodox Christians in the Philippines must be heard.  We want nothing less than the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.  Any "modified" liturgy must be rejected, with no compromise.
So, would you reject an Orthodox Western Rite?
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Theognosis
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« Reply #93 on: April 19, 2008, 11:43:32 PM »

So, would you reject an Orthodox Western Rite?

No.  I said "modified".
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« Reply #94 on: April 19, 2008, 11:50:03 PM »

No.  I said "modified".
Then why do you say you want nothing less than the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom?  To my knowledge the canonical Western Rite Orthodox don't use his liturgy.
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« Reply #95 on: April 20, 2008, 12:04:44 AM »

BTW filipiniana, for reasons of transparency, I would like to know your Christened name.


Just so filipiniana and everyone else knows, you are not in any way required to give your Christened name.  The vast majority of people on this forum don't give it and there are good reasons for that.  One cannot assume you are not being "transparent" by not giving your name.  That assertion is just ridiculous. 
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« Reply #96 on: April 20, 2008, 12:21:08 AM »

I am speaking for myself as far as my posts on this thread are concerned.  When I said "we", I intend to gather formal support from the laity, not just from the Readers, i.e. the Diakonia.  Well, assuming that I do otherwise, the voice of 10 Orthodox Christians should carry more weight than the voice of 6,000 Evangelicals who want to become Orthodox on their own terms. ..............BTW filipiniana, for reasons of transparency, I would like to know your Christened name.


Dear Frederick and all Forum members,


If I'm not mistaken, this Forum is not intended for discussing "personal"  matters or issues but rather, for disseminating information and facts for the benefit of all and not for the benefit of a single individual.
If you want to know my Orthodox name, just PM me. There we can discuss "personal"  matters and "personal" issues privately.

I already told you what you should do so you can find out what is really happening there and I won't repeat my advices to you again. As far as I'm concerned, these advices just landed on deaf ears.  Please listen to your Greek Vicar.


With regards to your Unofficial Website (i.e, ocp.uni.cc) it would be best to secure the approval and the blessing of His Eminence Metropolitan Nectarios of the Orthodox Metropolitanate of Hong Kong and South East Asia.

Finally, please allow me to share to you Frederick and the members of the "Diakonia" in the Annunciation Parish the recent message of His Eminence Metropolitan Paul Saliba:


"The work of the Lord is moving in the Philippines , with the grace of the Holy Spirit,
and nothing can stop it."





« Last Edit: April 20, 2008, 12:41:02 AM by filipiniana » Logged

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« Reply #97 on: April 20, 2008, 12:43:41 AM »

Just so filipiniana and everyone else knows, you are not in any way required to give your Christened name.  The vast majority of people on this forum don't give it and there are good reasons for that.  One cannot assume you are not being "transparent" by not giving your name.  That assertion is just ridiculous. 

Thank you Mr. Salpy  for making this important clarification.
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« Reply #98 on: April 20, 2008, 12:48:22 AM »

Thank you Mr. Salpy  for making this important clarification.
btw, Salpy is a she.
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« Reply #99 on: April 20, 2008, 01:01:22 AM »

Hey it's O.K.  People can call me anything they want.   Smiley
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« Reply #100 on: April 20, 2008, 01:18:33 AM »

I am not against Filipinos converting to Orthodox, and by Orthodox, I mean right worship.

Peace to all.

The Meaning of Orthodox.
http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article7051.asp

The term Orthodox combines the adjective orthos, which means right, correct or true, and the noun doxa, which comes from the verb doxazo, "I hold an opinion," or "I believe." Hence "right belief," or "true doctrine." But in a deeper sense it also means "right worship," since doxazo can also mean "I glorify." It could be said that the term Orthodox was forged as a defense against heretical, or heterodox, teaching which persisted during the formative centuries. As then, so now, it signifies a framework of theological propositions worked into precise doctrinal formulations, a body of faith and a tradition, that has retained its absolute integrity in the face of the changes and innovations that have occurred within Christianity.
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« Reply #101 on: April 20, 2008, 01:33:20 AM »

Then why do you say you want nothing less than the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom?  To my knowledge the canonical Western Rite Orthodox don't use his liturgy.

Is the canonical Western Rite Orthodox Liturgy "less than" the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom?  Of course not. 

Now, a "modified" evangelical liturgy is something else altogether.  It doesn't deserve a place alongside any established rite in Orthodoxy, either Western or Eastern.
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« Reply #102 on: April 20, 2008, 01:34:59 AM »

Now, a "modified" evangelical liturgy is something else.  It doesn't deserve a place alongside any established rite in Orthodoxy, either Western or Eastern.
Why not?
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« Reply #103 on: April 20, 2008, 03:06:31 AM »

Is the canonical Western Rite Orthodox Liturgy "less than" the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom?  Of course not. 

Now, a "modified" evangelical liturgy is something else altogether.  It doesn't deserve a place alongside any established rite in Orthodoxy, either Western or Eastern.


There are lots of things that you still don't know yet, Theognosis, so please be patient. When our group (i.e., the pioneer members of the Annunciation Parish) were received into canonical Orthodoxy in 1994, the late Metropolitan Dionysius of New Zealand (of blessed memory) gave a special dispensation to the leader of our group in Manila to perform a "modified"  Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom.  We observe this "modified" version of the Divine Liturgy every Sunday at the Saint George Greek Orthodox Chapel in Makati, Manila,  because  the Filipino Orthodox priest from far away Masbate island would come only once a month (sometimes only once every other month!) to perform the "canonical" Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom for us new converts in Orthodoxy. 

The leader of our indigenous Filipino Orthodox Community was ordained  by the late Metropolitan Dionysius of New Zealand assisted by then Bishop (now Metropolitan) Soterios of Korea in April 1995.  Thus, from February 1994 up to April 1995 (1 year and 2 months to be precise) we followed the said  "modified" version of the Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom when an Orthodox Priest is not around (you can ask the only remaining "pioneer" member of our group there in the Annunciation Parish to confirm this).


The Saint George Greek Orthodox Chapel at the Adamson Centre in Makati


So again, please be patient, Theognosis, with your Antiochian Orthodox brethren. Their leaders just got home from a week long audience with the Antiochian Primate in Australia last March 2008.  We, the pioneer members of the Annunciation Parish waited for 1 year and two months before the leader of our indigenous Orthodox group in Manila and Laguna finally gave us the canonical Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom.







« Last Edit: April 20, 2008, 03:20:50 AM by filipiniana » Logged

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« Reply #104 on: April 20, 2008, 03:23:01 AM »

There are lots of things that you still don't know yet, Theognosis, so please be patient. When our group (i.e., the pioneer members of the Annunciation Parish) were received into canonical Orthodoxy in 1994, the late Metropolitan Dionysius of New Zealand (of blessed memory) gave a special dispensation to the leader of our group in Manila to perform a "modified"  Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom.  We observe this "modified" version of the Divine Liturgy every Sunday at the Saint George Greek Orthodox Chapel in Makati, Manila,  because  the Filipino Orthodox priest from far away Masbate island would come only once a month (sometimes only once every other month!) to perform the "canonical" Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom for us new converts in Orthodoxy. 

The leader of our indigenous Filipino Orthodox Community was ordained  by the late Metropolitan Dionysius of New Zealand assisted by then Bishop (now Metropolitan) Soterios of Korea in April 1995.  Thus, from February 1994 up to April 1995 (1 year and 2 months to be precise) we followed the said  "modified" version of the Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom when an Orthodox Priest is not around (you can ask the only remaining "pioneer" member of our group there in the Annunciation PArish to confirm this).   

So again, please be patient, Theognosis, with your Antiochian Orthodox brethren. Their leaders just got home from a week long audience with the Antiochian Primate in Australia last March 2008.  We, the pioneer members of the Annunciation Parish waited for 1 year and two months before the leader of our indigenous Orthodox group in Manila and Laguna finally gave us the canonical Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom.

That's actually a good model because your group was given a "modified" Liturgy of St. John Chrystostom to prepare you for the real thing.  It was not in any form an evangelical rite.

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« Reply #105 on: April 20, 2008, 03:25:33 AM »

By modified liturgy do you mean the liturgy minus the Eucharist because you didnt have an ordained priest? Was it similar to people gathering to do a reader service? What exactly was modified?


And whats the difference between a canonical and uncanonical western rite liturgy? Regardless, just like a modified liturgy of St John Chrysostom, if approved by the bishop, it simply is a tolerated temporary anomaly for the overall good of the Church.


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« Reply #106 on: April 20, 2008, 04:05:41 AM »

That's actually a good model because your group was given a "modified" Liturgy of St. John Chrystostom to prepare you for the real thing.  It was not in any form an evangelical rite.



Since you sound so familiar with that so-called "evangelical rite" could you kindly describe it to us?  It appears like you have attended their Liturgy. Please be kind enough to share us  your observations (that is, if you have actually witnessed their so called "Evangelical" Liturgy.)  Thank you in advance.
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« Reply #107 on: April 20, 2008, 04:12:24 AM »

By modified liturgy do you mean the liturgy minus the Eucharist because you didnt have an ordained priest? Was it similar to people gathering to do a reader service? What exactly was modified?


And whats the difference between a canonical and uncanonical western rite liturgy? Regardless, just like a modified liturgy of St John Chrysostom, if approved by the bishop, it simply is a tolerated temporary anomaly for the overall good of the Church.




Yes buzuxi these "modified" rites that were approved by Orthodox Hierarchs are but temporary rites for the church in transition.  Its basically the Divine Liturgy without the Consecration of the Eucharist. The Small Entrance, Great Entrance etc.,  is present in that said  "modified" liturgy which we used for 1 year and two months while we patiently await the ordination of our leader.


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« Reply #108 on: April 20, 2008, 05:24:19 AM »

Hi all,

It is good to see the enthusiasm for Orthodox worship. It is heartening that most people are following St Paul's admonition to "love believes all things, hopes all things" and to consider the "pure, excellent" etc.

So again I am disappointed when Theognosis writes, and then there there is a long unseemly conversation based around the theme of a modified evangelical liturgy. e.g Theognosis wrote: "Now, a "modified" evangelical liturgy is something else altogether.  It doesn't deserve a place alongside any established rite in Orthodoxy, either Western or Eastern."

To be clear, i never mentioned such a thing. The evangelicals to my knowledge will be trained in the liturgy of St John Chrysostom.

What I did write was regarding the second group, which uses an ancient Orthodox liturgy, which has been slightly modified to make it more Orthodox. Theognosis, you have jumped to conclusions and not followed my advice about believing the best. Maybe you should see your priest about your problem in this regard. You wrote: "I think that's innovation, and I as a former Roman Catholic am tired of it. Again, I hope you understand." Yes I do understand. And the defensiveness/aggessiveness you are showing needs healing- please see your priest, he will help.

Also, when you write: "The voice of the Orthodox Christians in the Philippines must be heard.  We want nothing less than the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.  Any "modified" liturgy must be rejected, with no compromise."
and : "When I said "we", I intend to gather formal support from the laity, not just from the Readers, i.e. the Diakonia. " And then you jump into defining Orthodox and heresy. Really!

This is not Orthodox thinking nor action. It is outright politicking which verges on factions. St Paul warns a lot about this. Be careful in your zeal you do not cause hate and schism. "we want nothing less" is not Orthodox humility. "Gather formal support" is not Orthodox living. Pray, seek repentance and a softer heart. I am not condemning you but genuinely concerned as a pastor for your soul's health. You are seeing heresy under every bush.

Relax: There is no pressure on your parish to change.

And you really should learn about Orthodox liturgical history and theology. If you do you will see that not only St. John Chrysostom's liturgy is canonical, but also St. Basil's and St. James and several other pre-RC-split Western liturgies, and various Syriac liturgies etc. So your concern is not even Orthodox. In Jerusalem they use St. James, in Egypt, St Mark's etc etc. You may be bringing your reaction against RC innovations into orthodoxy and thus condemning the actions of a canonical bishop who has by the canons the right and responsibility to allow economia for those entering the faith. Orthodoxy is about grace. It is not about lay people jumping to conclusions and jumping into fear-based politicking that verges on factionalism.

As Tamara asked: yes there will be a senior priest appointed probably from USA or Australia to train them. maybe even a bishop.

Now, please whoever, do not read more into what i wrote above than I have said. Show Orthodox humility and grace. This holy week is not the time for fear, judgement and harshness.

Really, most of you have better things to do than argue here. Those who reply with graceful short answers, great! But please avoid feeding an argument. Or jumping to conclusions.

"If there is anything worthy of praise, think on these things..."

in Christ,
Fr John D'Alton, fully canonical Orthodox priest, using the liturgys of St John Chrysostom, St Basil, St. James and even occasionally the pre-sanctified liturgy of St. Gregory the Dialogist.







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« Reply #109 on: April 20, 2008, 05:35:28 AM »

One more thing, Theognosis, when you wrote: "Well, assuming that I do otherwise, the voice of 10 Orthodox Christians should carry more weight than the voice of 6,000 Evangelicals who want to become Orthodox on their own terms." You are condemning 6000 people's motives when you have no idea what is in their heart, based on your assumption about what I wrote. They have neither asked for nor been given any modified evangelical rite.

You have condemned 6000 people by saying "on their own terms". They demanded nothing. May God give you the grace to do the Orthodox thing and apologise to them, and learn to think the best and stop jumping to conclusions. Your harshness is very concerning and sad. Beware copying the harshness of the pharisees.

Who made you such a judge? Leave such issues to priests and bishops and focus on purifying your soul before making more accusing posts. I am speaking strongly to you for your good, but in love and concern. If you are wise you will listen. One of the first steps in Orthodox spirituality is learning humility. May God have mercy on us all.

in Christ,
Fr John D'Alton, Orthodox priest.

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« Reply #110 on: April 20, 2008, 07:17:31 AM »

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The evangelicals to my knowledge will be trained in the liturgy of St John Chrysostom.

I'm very glad that you said that.  The evangelicals are great singers, and when they finally learn to chant, that would be glorious!!!

Quote
What I did write was regarding the second group, which uses an ancient Orthodox liturgy, which has been slightly modified to make it more Orthodox.

Is that not a contradiction?  If it's already Orthodox, why make it "more" Orthodox? 

Can you tell me the specifics of this ancient liturgy and the changes you have made to it? 
Further, why is there a need to teach them two liturgies when you could have taught them just one?

Quote
Theognosis, you have jumped to conclusions and not followed my advice about believing the best. Maybe you should see your priest about your problem in this regard. You wrote: "I think that's innovation, and I as a former Roman Catholic am tired of it. Again, I hope you understand." Yes I do understand.

With all due respect, I don't think you understand.  I invite you to come to the Philippines and see what's happening here.

Quote
And the defensiveness/aggessiveness you are showing needs healing- please see your priest, he will help.

Sorry, father, but you are judging my soul based solely on my participation on this thread. I am a sinner, yes, but the truth remains that you don't know me personally. 

Quote
Also, when you write: "The voice of the Orthodox Christians in the Philippines must be heard.  We want nothing less than the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.  Any "modified" liturgy must be rejected, with no compromise."
and : "When I said "we", I intend to gather formal support from the laity, not just from the Readers, i.e. the Diakonia. " And then you jump into defining Orthodox and heresy. Really!

If you want me to write in a more politically correct tone, then I will do so. 

Quote
This is not Orthodox thinking nor action. It is outright politicking which verges on factions. St Paul warns a lot about this. Be careful in your zeal you do not cause hate and schism. "we want nothing less" is not Orthodox humility. "Gather formal support" is not Orthodox living. Pray, seek repentance and a softer heart. I am not condemning you but genuinely concerned as a pastor for your soul's health. You are seeing heresy under every bush.

We are in disagreement.  Citizens have every right to express what they feel.  This is particularly true in the Philippines where there is no united voice.

Quote
Relax: There is no pressure on your parish to change.

I missed Palm Sunday because of back spasms.  Yet, I am relaxing.  I just watched Calzaghe beat Hopkins this morning (boring fight, btw...I should have just watched the playoffs).  I'm also entertaining a lot of overseas guests in the house.  I played video games with the kids as well.  By the way, I have 4 beautiful children.

Quote
And you really should learn about Orthodox liturgical history and theology. If you do you will see that not only St. John Chrysostom's liturgy is canonical, but also St. Basil's and St. James and several other pre-RC-split Western liturgies, and various Syriac liturgies etc. So your concern is not even Orthodox. In Jerusalem they use St. James, in Egypt, St Mark's etc etc.

I know that, father.

Quote
You may be bringing your reaction against RC innovations into orthodoxy and thus condemning the actions of a canonical bishop who has by the canons the right and responsibility to allow economia for those entering the faith. Orthodoxy is about grace. It is not about lay people jumping to conclusions and jumping into fear-based politicking that verges on factionalism.

There is a political dimension that must be resolved in all this.  Afterall, this is not about Orthodoxy in general, but the conversion of the Philippine nation in particular. 

Quote
As Tamara asked: yes there will be a senior priest appointed probably from USA or Australia to train them. maybe even a bishop.

Wonderful news. Just wonderful.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2008, 07:27:04 AM by Theognosis » Logged
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« Reply #111 on: April 20, 2008, 07:50:17 AM »

No.  I said "modified".
You do realize that some Canonical Western Rite Liturgies are "modified" Anglican liturgies which have been made Canonical, don't you? They weren't "Canonical" in their own right, but were made Canonical by being accepted by the Synods of the Antiochian and ROCOR Churches. And in the end, this is the very mission of the Church on Earth- to sanctify the Cosmos.
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« Reply #112 on: April 20, 2008, 08:34:15 AM »

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You do realize that some Canonical Western Rite Liturgies are "modified" Anglican liturgies which have been made Canonical, don't you? They weren't "Canonical" in their own right, but were made Canonical by being accepted by the Synods of the Antiochian and ROCOR Churches. And in the end, this is the very mission of the Church on Earth- to sanctify the Cosmos.
 
That's a valid point.  However, it just so happened that the Anglicans have their own liturgies, so it makes perfect sense to modify the Anglican liturgies for their own use. 

On the other hand, we don't have such an established liturgy in the Philippines.  The closest thing that can be called a "Filipino Liturgy" would be the Roman Catholic Novus Ordo translated in our native tongue.

The question now is, should we "modify" the Novus Ordo and make it more Orthodox because it is more convenient for the Filipinos? 

Is this the right way of converting the Filipinos to Orthodoxy in our attempt to sanctify the whole Cosmos? 

I really don't think so.

Just my 2 cents, George.
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« Reply #113 on: April 20, 2008, 09:51:04 AM »

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You have condemned 6000 people by saying "on their own terms".

I have not condemned any soul.  I am questioning the methods being employed, period.

Quote
Your harshness is very concerning and sad. Beware copying the harshness of the pharisees.

You are being harsh on my person.  The most you can do is be harsh on my views, especially in a forum like this where people can freely express their thoughts on various topics.

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Who made you such a judge?

I am not judging anybody.  I advise you to look in the mirror.

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One of the first steps in Orthodox spirituality is learning humility.

One of our local priests is a very humble person.
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« Reply #114 on: April 20, 2008, 10:53:56 AM »

I have not condemned any soul.  I am questioning the methods being employed, period.

You are being harsh on my person.  The most you can do is be harsh on my views, especially in a forum like this where people can freely express their thoughts on various topics.

I am not judging anybody.  I advise you to look in the mirror.

One of our local priests is a very humble person.



Theognosis,
The way you answer to a Priest is so unbecoming of an Orthodox Christian. Since you won't listen to your Vicar nor to any of the good advices of other Orthodox priest and brethren here in this Forum then I won't argue nor discuss with you anymore for it is useless. This will be my last post in this particular thread.

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« Reply #115 on: April 20, 2008, 11:19:18 AM »

...
You have condemned 6000 people by saying "on their own terms". They demanded nothing. May God give you the grace to do the Orthodox thing and apologise to them, and learn to think the best and stop jumping to conclusions. Your harshness is very concerning and sad. Beware copying the harshness of the pharisees.
...


Fr. John,

While not as objectionary as Theognosis, I share many of his concerns and it indeed sounds to me as well as they group is coming into the church under their own terms as well.  I don't know if Tamara refers to the former "Evangelical Orthodox" (my group) when she said the below (I hope she did), but many difficulties and problems could have been prevented in the earlier years by closer episcopal oversight.


I just hope that a bishop will be placed over this new group. Six thousand new souls are certainly enough people to qualify for assigning a bishop to oversee them in their country. One thing we learned the hard way, a large group of new converts NEED someone who is experienced in the faith to help them develop an Orthodox mind-set....
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« Reply #116 on: April 20, 2008, 11:47:43 AM »

The question now is, should we "modify" the Novus Ordo and make it more Orthodox because it is more convenient for the Filipinos? 
Why not?
This may come as a surprise to you, but the first time I saw a Novus Ordo Mass, I was struck by how much it resembled the Liturgy of St. James which I had attended in the Cathedral of the Annunciation in Greece. We even received Communion in the hand (which is actually the correct way to receive according to the Rudder).


Who made you such a judge? Leave such issues to priests and bishops and focus on purifying your soul before making more accusing posts. I am speaking strongly to you for your good, but in love and concern. If you are wise you will listen. One of the first steps in Orthodox spirituality is learning humility. May God have mercy on us all.
Father bless,
Firstly, let me formally welcome you to the forum. I have heard many good things about you, and be assured of my prayers for the Holy Transfiguration Mission.
Secondly, believe me when I say that I can understand your reaction to what Theognosis said. One of the purposes of a forum is to be a place where people who would not normally meet in person can "meet" online. It gives us an opportunity to come to understand one another. I personally have come to understand perspectives in the Orthodox Church I had never come accross- the Western Rite is one example. This forum helped to clear up a lot of misapprehensions I had about WROy. There are always going to be people who have misapprehensions, and all we can do it try to help them understand, and try to understand what they are trying to say. Sometimes we need to correct their misunderstanding, sometimes we have an opprtunity to grow by being exposed to another perspective.
I think Theognosis and yourself have simply gotten off on the wrong foot. Part of it, I think, is cultural. As an Australian myself, I got off on the wrong foot with many an American poster when I first started, and even now I manage to put my foot in it sometimes (never say "your mob" to an Italian American!)
I'm sure that with patience and understanding we can get over this hump.
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« Reply #117 on: April 20, 2008, 12:07:58 PM »

Allow me to speak, Ladies and Gentlemen.

What's a man to do when he has been maligned and demonized by many for expressing his views--views that were eventually acknowledged to be mostly correct?  I must admit that I was mistaken in some cases, but the essence of my concerns about heterodox being called vicars and a certain liturgy being modified and used remains unchallenged.

As for judgment, the accusation that I have condemned 6,000 souls is a serious matter that has to be substantiated.  It has no foundation whatsoever--utter nonsense.  Yet, this is nothing compared to being compared to a Pharisee.  That is a personal attack, one in which I cannot simply ignore.  Not one--not even a priest--could truly know the heart and intentions of a man unless the former knows the latter personally.

I must confess that I have no intention of expressing my thoughts in a more politically-correct manner.  That's my preferred style and I have no regrets. At least now I know how it feels like to be in GiC's shoes.



And so to the widely unpopular GiC, wherever you are, I take my hat off to you man!

Cool
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« Reply #118 on: April 21, 2008, 12:53:24 AM »

Re: Correct information about the Philippine Evangelical group of Bishop Aniceto

Friends,

May I kindly correct the information posted.  The Evangelical Church under me is the "Pentecostal Methodist Evangelical Union, Inc, the representation of the Pentecostal Methodist Evangelic Church (PMEC), Delaware, USA and founding member of the Pentecostal Methodist Evangelical World Mission Board, based in Hayward, CA, USA.

I was involved with IEMELIF as a Theological Consultant for a short period.  That is the reason you can find that inforamtion from Harvard Divinity School.

Further, we are under the Antiochian Archdiocese of Australia led by Met.Arch. Paul Saliba.  We also have the Ecumenical Patrciachiate Missions in the Philippines.  We have separated jurisdictions.

For more information about our Philippine Mission, kindly get in touch with me at:

mobile.63928.453.9346/63917.530.3368
www.antiochianarch.org.au

Blessings to all!!

Jeptah Aguas-Aniceto PhD
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Davao
Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia, New Zealand and the Philippines

EDIT: I have removed the email address you posted for your own security. Email addresses should never be posted on a website as this is how webcrawlers gather email addresses for spamming purposes. An alternative is that you ask people to privately message you using the forum's private messaging facility.
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« Reply #119 on: April 21, 2008, 01:56:50 AM »

Hi Ozgeorge,
The Lord bless you.
Thanks for your input- very helpful. Yes I'm still confused about these culture issues. You wrote:

>Firstly, let me formally welcome you to the forum. I have heard many good things about you, and be assured of my prayers for the Holy Transfiguration Mission.

Thanks. We need it.

>Secondly, believe me when I say that I can understand your reaction to what Theognosis said. One of the purposes of a forum is to be a place where people who would not normally meet in person can "meet" online. It gives us an opportunity to come to understand one another. <snip> I think Theognosis and yourself have simply gotten off on the wrong foot. Part of it, I think, is cultural. As an Australian myself, I got off on the wrong foot with many an American poster when I first started, and even now I manage to put my foot in it sometimes (never say "your mob" to an Italian American!) I'm sure that with patience and understanding we can get over this hump.

Great. Maybe then you can help here, and I'm being serious not sarcastic... How would you respond then to comments that this evangelical group is joining "on their own terms" and using a "modified liturgy" (which is an outright lie AFAIK). I'd quite happy to see how you would deal with these "misunderstandings" if they are indeed not as i understood- incorrect "judgements".? If you can clear this up so such statements are not left standing nor open to the interpretation  I placed then that would be great :-)

Thanks for your help.

in Christ,
Fr. John
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« Reply #120 on: April 21, 2008, 05:45:07 AM »

How would you respond then to comments that this evangelical group is joining "on their own terms" and using a "modified liturgy" (which is an outright lie AFAIK).
I would point out that the burden of proof lies with the one who makes the claim: "Thank you for your opinion. Could you please provide your evidence to support this claim?" And if they respond with simply more "opinion", I would point this out and repeat: "Thank you for your opinion. Could you please provide your evidence to support this claim?"
Until they actually tell you why they are making the claim, their opinion is nothing but prejudice. If they can tell you why they hold the opinion they hold, then there is an opportunity to clear up any misunderstandings they may have, or to see things from their perspective.
If we keep trying to dialogue with someone, and they just want to use the forum to give a monologue about what they think, it soon becomes apparent to all.
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« Reply #121 on: April 21, 2008, 08:59:49 AM »

Hey it's O.K.  People can call me anything they want.   Smiley 

... and please, don't call me Shirley.
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« Reply #122 on: April 21, 2008, 09:05:27 AM »

padre_aniceto,

Welcome to the forum!
 
Would you like to share the story of how your group found Orthodoxy, and how you decided to join the Orthodox Church?  I'm very interested!
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« Reply #123 on: April 22, 2008, 01:18:24 AM »

... and please, don't call me Shirley.

Surely you jest.   Smiley
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« Reply #124 on: May 26, 2008, 10:46:57 AM »

Here's the latest news on the Antiochian Orthodox Church in the Philippines (from the official website of the Antiochian Archdiocese of Australia & New Zealand):


Salamat sa Diyos! (Thanks be to God!)




What is happening in the Philippines is great news of the Holy Spirit's actions, so it is a little disappointing that some people jump to conclusions without even finding out the facts first. What happened to Orthodox charity and "believing the best"?

The facts are that the negotiations between the EP and Met. Paul and Antioch have been long and far more complex than stated here. Secondly there is a very cordial working agreement, not animosity as suggested here at times. Thirdly, in no canonical sense have non_Orthodox been made "vicars", however, that term has been used out of respect for current evangelical leaders position.

Fourthly, while everyone is aware of the problem of the overlapping of jurisdictions (we have it here in Australia too), Antioch (and the EP) work pragmatically *now* despite this, while working to resolve this uncanonical situation in the *future*.

Fifthly, the services have been modified to make them Orthodox. Antioch has always had a broader range of services than some other jurisdictions. Really, assuming that a bishop would overlook this is a sad reflection on lay distrust of bishops.

People should not read bad motives, uncanonical intent nor unOrthodox actions into anything that has happened.

Next time you want to know things, please do not post such questions on the internet- ask Met. Paul first, then this will save many wasted hours of passing around uninformed opinion and sheer gossip. Gossip is not Orthodox. Those who asked genuine questions without gossip should also email Met. Paul or whoever in future. Otherwise you can just add to speculation and feed the argumentative types :-(

in Christ,
Fr. John D'Alton, Antiochian Orthodox, Australia, writing as a priest, not in any official capacity for the archdiocese.


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« Reply #125 on: May 27, 2008, 02:47:40 AM »

 Shocked

im speechless
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« Reply #126 on: June 02, 2008, 10:05:16 AM »

Here's another update:


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« Reply #127 on: June 02, 2008, 01:19:04 PM »

... a lot of developments... may I ask everyone to take note especially our dear friend Filipiniana the name of contact person under the Chapel of Molta, Turil, Davao City... Bishop Jeptan Aniceto. Does this mean that he was ordained already or elevated as an Orthodox episcopacy to be addressed as Bishop?

With the previous threads, there was a question among the participants here if indeed a an Episcopal Vicar was already assigned by Antiochian Arch. of Australia and NZ even not yet received by Chrismation.

If one will argue that such honorary title is just being used as a sign of respect because he was a Bishop of his former flock then are we acknowledging the validity of ordinations among evangelicals? Are we then compromising our faith here? As far as I know if a person become an Orthodox Christian, whether he is a priest or bishop of another belief is considere to be layman... please correct me if I am wrong...

Again, the Philippines is to big to be handled by one missionary Church... but I hope proper guidance and adherance to the canon be considered in order not the Filipinos to be confused.

Thank you to all.
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« Reply #128 on: June 02, 2008, 06:00:30 PM »

Glory to God!
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« Reply #129 on: June 02, 2008, 10:21:53 PM »

... a lot of developments... may I ask everyone to take note especially our dear friend Filipiniana the name of contact person under the Chapel of Molta, Turil, Davao City... Bishop Jeptan Aniceto. Does this mean that he was ordained already or elevated as an Orthodox episcopacy to be addressed as Bishop?


For more information please CONTACT THE ARCHDIOCESE



.
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« Reply #130 on: June 03, 2008, 10:08:51 PM »

You might all be interested to know that the Moscow Patriarchate has a Filipino hierodeacon -- Hierodeacon Martinian (Mark Balagtas) of Mercy House in NY.
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« Reply #131 on: June 03, 2008, 11:20:06 PM »

You might all be interested to know that the Moscow Patriarchate has a Filipino hierodeacon -- Hierodeacon Martinian (Mark Balagtas) of Mercy House in NY.


Glory to God! I'm speechless... Shocked A Filipino hierodeacon under the Moscow Patriarchate! This will be bad news for some members of this particular thread who thinks that all Filipinos should be under the EP otherwise they have broken the canons and hence uncanonical. By the way, the EP jurisdiction in the Philippines has a Filipino Archimandrite in the person of Father Philemon Castro.





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« Reply #132 on: June 06, 2008, 03:59:24 AM »

Fr. Aniceto, the vicar priest visited me yesterday..

His Eminence Metropolitan has just recently ordained him to the priesthood, and many others more of the pastors who were once under him in the Evangelical group, are now preparing and studying their way to the priesthood. We also talked of plans on sending missionaries to my hometown.

God bless the Archdiocese and its mission! God bless  His Holy Church!   Cheesy
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« Reply #133 on: June 07, 2008, 05:22:40 AM »

Fr. Aniceto, the vicar priest visited me yesterday..

His Eminence Metropolitan has just recently ordained him to the priesthood, and many others more of the pastors who were once under him in the Evangelical group, are now preparing and studying their way to the priesthood. We also talked of plans on sending missionaries to my hometown.

God bless the Archdiocese and its mission! God bless  His Holy Church!   Cheesy

Thank you for sharing this vital information with us. The Antiochian Orthodox in the Philippines is commendable for their swift compliance with what has been negotiated  according to the "AGREEMENT" made between their Patriach in Antioch and  the Ecumenical Patriarch in Constantinople.  I just hope the leaders of both parties (the Greek and the Antiochian Vicars) in the Philippines will publish once and for all the full details of this "AGREEMENT" soon in order to prevent confusion and doubts among very loyal members of each jurisdiction.  The people is asking for the truth and you can't ignore and keep people waiting for so long.


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« Reply #134 on: June 07, 2008, 05:31:54 AM »

Thank you for sharing this vital information with us. The Antiochian Orthodox in the Philippines is commendable for their swift compliance with what has been negotiated  according to the "AGREEMENT" made between their Patriach in Antioch and  the Ecumenical Patriarch in Constantinople.  I just hope the leaders of both parties (the Greek and the Antiochian Vicars) in the Philippines will publish once and for all the full details of this "AGREEMENT" soon in order to prevent confusion and doubts among very loyal members of each jurisdiction.  The people is asking for the truth and you can't ignore nor keep people waiting for so long.




PS ...I do hope the leaders from the Antiochian side will not play deaf and dumb to these concerns.
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