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Author Topic: Conversions in Philipines  (Read 88961 times) Average Rating: 5
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ialmisry
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« Reply #225 on: November 28, 2008, 11:49:28 PM »


With regards to "collective" or "multiple" ordination, please read below:


"d) Acts 13:3. The note supports multiple ordination. This practice has been forbidden in the Orthodox Church for many centuries, so there is no reason whatsoever to mention it, unless it is to justify the extreme irregularity of performing such ordinations when the so-called "Evangelical Orthodox" were received into the Antiochian Church."


Review of the Orthodox Study Bible
by Priest Seraphim Johnson

Source: http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/phronema/review_osb2.aspx

Antiochenes again are the culprits??? Cry

Or the ethnocentric ghetto?

I've come across this silly (very silly and petty in many ways) review of the OSB. In many ways it reflects the mindset of keeping a private family garden rather than going out in the fields and recruiting workers.

The reviews critique of the mass ordinations I believe is lost in the fruits of those ordinations.


Thanks for reminding us about the BEN LOMOND TRAGEDY . This tragedy is one those "fruits" of multiple or "mass ordinations". Thats what you get from compromising, disregarding and violating the canons of the Orthodox Church.



LOL.  I was wondering how long it would be before someone brought up BL.

So, pray tell: how did mass ordinations lead to the Ben Lomond Tragedy?  Because I can point to far worse in jurisdictions who never in living memory conducted mass ordinations, including the EP.
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« Reply #226 on: November 29, 2008, 05:30:04 AM »

... so just because the other do it... we will do the same? Is that your way of measuring or way of interpreting the canons even in plain logic or simple reason that we should not do something like that? So what if the EP does it? Let EP be guilty of that crime ... but it doesn't necessary that every one should follow...

I am very much disappointed with the people here... if you are going to read all my post, I never say that the Antiochians should never come here... there are ways and procedures that need to be followed... our country is too big for EP to evangelize the entire islands...

My only point is this... how can we say that we are one in faith... in everything except administration if we do not know how to follow simple protocol.
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ialmisry
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« Reply #227 on: November 29, 2008, 08:08:27 AM »

... so just because the other do it... we will do the same? Is that your way of measuring or way of interpreting the canons even in plain logic or simple reason that we should not do something like that? So what if the EP does it? Let EP be guilty of that crime ... but it doesn't necessary that every one should follow...

I am very much disappointed with the people here... if you are going to read all my post, I never say that the Antiochians should never come here... there are ways and procedures that need to be followed... our country is too big for EP to evangelize the entire islands...

My only point is this... how can we say that we are one in faith... in everything except administration if we do not know how to follow simple protocol.

Ah, if it was only that simple.

The problem has been that the EP acts like an ethnarch, which the Antiochians (among others) have had to deal with in Europe, the US and in Antioch itself in the past.  The histories I get about the Phillipines, that the Russians under St. John didn't evangelize to the Filippinos strike me as a little odd, as St. John's whole life was spent evangelizing wherever he went (e.g. his support of the Gallican rite while in France).  I find it hard to believe that he made an exception for the Fillipinos.  I am a little suspicious that this is meant to undercut rival claims by the EP, much like the promotion of the New Smyrna colony (not Orthodox by any account) and Holy Trinity Parish in New Orleans (predated by the the Russian cathedral in San Francisco, let alone Alaska) is used in the US.


I will admit, I am unclear on how the Antiocheans got in the Philippines.  Antioch's title is "Antioch and All the East," but I don't know the specific history in the Phillipines.

And I will agree with you, there should be administrative unity.  Everywhere.

But the history of what has gone on in the US with the EP (let alone in Antioch, and the Greeks in Jerusalem) makes me wary of what is going on in the Phillipines.
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« Reply #228 on: November 30, 2008, 02:18:55 AM »

The Davao vicariate is now celebrating the Western Rite Liturgy approved by the Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of America.. We are now also celebrating Matins and Vespers on Feast Days. The new Orthodox Christians of Davao, are still studying and adjusting, to Eastern liturgies, God-granting, by next year, we will be celebrating the St. John Chrysostom Liturgy, REGULARLY..  Smiley

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ialmisry
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« Reply #229 on: November 30, 2008, 06:42:52 AM »

The Davao vicariate is now celebrating the Western Rite Liturgy approved by the Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of America.. We are now also celebrating Matins and Vespers on Feast Days. The new Orthodox Christians of Davao, are still studying and adjusting, to Eastern liturgies, God-granting, by next year, we will be celebrating the St. John Chrysostom Liturgy, REGULARLY..  Smiley

We pray to the Lord.
Lord have Mercy!

Are these two different groups, or one group using the WR to transition into Eastern Rite?
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« Reply #230 on: November 30, 2008, 09:59:12 AM »

Are these two different groups, or one group using the WR to transition into Eastern Rite?

We are just part of the same Archdiocese friend. The Antiochian presence in the Philippines has two vicariates, Manila and Davao.. I belong to the Davao vicariate under Archpriest Jeptah Aniceto.
as of now, we are using a canonical Western liturgy, but it might take a longer time before we succesfully shift to St. John's Liturgy, because of the lack of materials and rubrics. We could not even afford a Thurible for our priest, or even Orthodox Vestments. The only one's we could buy (since they are a lot cheaper, and are readily available) are Roman Catholic vestments (as you've probably seen in the photos).. We are having a hard time, but Im happy that even if things are going slow , God never fails to slowly provide us with our spiritual nourishment,even if we lack material goods..  Smiley

Lord have Mercy!
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« Reply #231 on: November 30, 2008, 10:33:50 AM »

Are these two different groups, or one group using the WR to transition into Eastern Rite?

We are just part of the same Archdiocese friend. The Antiochian presence in the Philippines has two vicariates, Manila and Davao.. I belong to the Davao vicariate under Archpriest Jeptah Aniceto.
as of now, we are using a canonical Western liturgy, but it might take a longer time before we succesfully shift to St. John's Liturgy, because of the lack of materials and rubrics. We could not even afford a Thurible for our priest, or even Orthodox Vestments. The only one's we could buy (since they are a lot cheaper, and are readily available) are Roman Catholic vestments (as you've probably seen in the photos).. We are having a hard time, but Im happy that even if things are going slow , God never fails to slowly provide us with our spiritual nourishment,even if we lack material goods..  Smiley

Lord have Mercy!

Any reason why switching to Eastern Rite?
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« Reply #232 on: November 30, 2008, 10:37:43 AM »

Its what His Eminence wants for the future Parishes in the Philippines... We just adopted the Western Rite, but only for the meantime.. The priests told us, that when we have our own Temple's where we can do liturgy, then we can adopt the Eastern Rite.. As of this time, we celebrate Liturgy in the homes of the faithfull, or sometimes we rent a Protestant Place or an RC Cathedral for bigger celebrations..
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« Reply #233 on: November 30, 2008, 11:07:07 AM »

We could not even afford a Thurible for our priest,
You may be in luck here.
I have this handheld liturgical censer with bells which I have been asked to find a home for.
If you would like to have it, pm me with an address to send it to.

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« Reply #234 on: November 30, 2008, 05:37:19 PM »

Its what His Eminence wants for the future Parishes in the Philippines... We just adopted the Western Rite, but only for the meantime.. The priests told us, that when we have our own Temple's where we can do liturgy, then we can adopt the Eastern Rite.. As of this time, we celebrate Liturgy in the homes of the faithfull, or sometimes we rent a Protestant Place or an RC Cathedral for bigger celebrations..

Can or must adopt the Eastern Rite?
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« Reply #235 on: December 01, 2008, 01:53:54 AM »

Its what His Eminence wants for the future Parishes in the Philippines... We just adopted the Western Rite, but only for the meantime.. The priests told us, that when we have our own Temple's where we can do liturgy, then we can adopt the Eastern Rite.. As of this time, we celebrate Liturgy in the homes of the faithfull, or sometimes we rent a Protestant Place or an RC Cathedral for bigger celebrations..

Can or must adopt the Eastern Rite?

I don't really have a sure answer to that friend, but apparently, the converts themselves, want to establish Eastern Rite Parish, in order for us to establish an indenpendent identity, as Orthodox Christian. I concede to what my other fellow Filipinos have said here, that as of present, Antiochian Christians here are hard to distinguish from the Roman Catholic Church because of our Rites. But I've already mentioned (I thin I have mentioned) that lack of knowledge and materials have barred our way to complete transition to Eastern rubrics, such as the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. So HE PAul and our vicar decided that we adopt a liturgy that is very familiar to the evangelical and Roman Catholic converts (like myself) which is, at the same time, Orthodox in itself, that is why as of now, we adopt the Western liturgy approved by the Antiochian Church. I dont know if we HAVE to use the Eastern Liturgies, but personally, Id be eager to witness the day, where we can establish for ourselves, a Temple where we can celebrate the St. John Chrysostom Liturgy, with complete rubrics, and with the people's familiarity.

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« Reply #236 on: December 01, 2008, 11:25:49 AM »


.....apparently, the converts themselves, want to establish Eastern Rite Parish, in order for us to establish an indenpendent identity, as Orthodox Christian. I concede to what my other fellow Filipinos have said here, that as of present, Antiochian Christians here are hard to distinguish from the Roman Catholic Church because of our Rites.

Thank you for the updates Sohma. Its good to know that the converts (does that includes the ordained priests or only the lay people?) wants "to establish Eastern Rite Parish" so as to be identified as truly Orthodox. If the priests prefers  "Western Rite" then they should follow the canonical Western Rite and not the modified Novus Ordo Roman Rite.


But I've already mentioned (I thin I have mentioned) that lack of knowledge and materials have barred our way to complete transition to Eastern rubrics, such as the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. ....... I dont know if we HAVE to use the Eastern Liturgies, but personally, Id be eager to witness the day, where we can establish for ourselves, a Temple where we can celebrate the St. John Chrysostom Liturgy, with complete rubrics, and with the people's familiarity.

There are more Byzantine Liturgical materials and media which you can download over the net than Western Rite liturgical materials. During our time, it took us several months before we memorized how to sing or chant the different melodies of the Byzantine hymns in the Sunday Liturgy. We started familiarizing ourselves by distributing 1 cassette tape of the the Divine Liturgy in English for each family.

The tape did not come from Greece or America (and back then there was no internet sites where you can download the hymns "on line" unlike today).  We made it ourselves; a Filipino member who knows how to read music notations familiarized himself with the melodies of hymns of the  Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom Hymnal and made voice recordings of the liturgical hymns. We would listen to his voice recordings at home then will try our best to follow the melody and sing the hymns during the Sunday Liturgy. Yes, we even play the voice recording on the cassette player during the liturgy (especially the long hymns like the Great Doxology and the Cherubic Hymn) so we can follow and sing the hymns.  Several months later, we can sing the hymns  without playing the  cassette tape during the Liturgy. That's how we were able to familiarize ourselves with the  hymns (or liturgical rubrics) of the Divine Liturgy even though we do not have a "temple".

You don't need a "temple",  iconastasis etc. to perform the Divine Liturgy.  Our "temple" arrived after more than 3 years of performing the Divine Liturgy in offices and homes owned by Orthodox faithful (occasionally in the Greek chapel of Saint George which is actually a  family mausoleum).  Yes, if there is a will there is a way.  Wink

Here's an online resource where you can download Byzantine liturgical music sheets in PDf format and recordings of Liturgical hymns in MP3 format:

NEW BYZANTINE PUBLICATIONS (click)

You can download an MP3 recording of the major hymns of the Divine Liturgy in English  HERE (click).

The link above contains the following Divine Liturgy hymns in English:

1. Through the Prayers of the Theotokos
2. Save us O Son of God
3. Thrice Holy Hymn
4. A Hymn of Praise (During Consecration)
5. One is Holy  (During Communion)
6. Praise the Lord (During Communion)
7. Receive Me Today O Son of God (Communion Song)
8. We Have Seen the Light


I hope this helps.







« Last Edit: December 01, 2008, 11:39:18 AM by filipiniana » Logged

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« Reply #237 on: December 06, 2008, 05:31:19 PM »

The new converts to Orthodoxy in the Philippines are in need of many things as they try to establish themselves.
Prodromas and I are trying to assist as best we can, but we need help.
After discussing this with Frs. Anastasios & Chris, permission has been obtained to post this appeal.
We are shipping a few items next week to help out, and if anyone would like to donate any of the following items, pm me, and I will give you the shipping address.
The items they need are:

Icons of the Archangels

Icon/s of Christ Pantocrator/ High Priest

Icon/s of the Theotokos

Icon/s of St. John Forerunner

Icons of the 12 Feasts of the Church

Icon of St. Basil the Great

Icon of St. John Chrysostom

Icon of the 12 apostles

Icon of St. Peter and Paul

Icon of St. Andrew the Apostle

3 Hand Crosses

Catechetical and Theological Books (anything you can provide, no specific category)

More Orthodox Bibles, for our priests (about 3 should do)

Prayer Books and Reader Service Books (English/Greek)

Hand Censer (with the materials needed to use it if its possible)

Holy Water (if possible)

Books on learning Byzantine Hymnlogy

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« Reply #238 on: December 14, 2008, 06:30:46 AM »

The new converts to Orthodoxy in the Philippines are in need of many things as they try to establish themselves.
Prodromas and I are trying to assist as best we can, but we need help.
After discussing this with Frs. Anastasios & Chris, permission has been obtained to post this appeal.
We are shipping a few items next week to help out, and if anyone would like to donate any of the following items, pm me, and I will give you the shipping address.
The items they need are:

Icons of the Archangels

Icon/s of Christ Pantocrator/ High Priest

Icon/s of the Theotokos

Icon/s of St. John Forerunner

Icons of the 12 Feasts of the Church

Icon of St. Basil the Great

Icon of St. John Chrysostom

Icon of the 12 apostles

Icon of St. Peter and Paul

Icon of St. Andrew the Apostle

3 Hand Crosses

Catechetical and Theological Books (anything you can provide, no specific category)

More Orthodox Bibles, for our priests (about 3 should do)

Prayer Books and Reader Service Books (English/Greek)

Hand Censer (with the materials needed to use it if its possible)

Holy Water (if possible)

Books on learning Byzantine Hymnlogy



This would be of great help to Filipino Orthodox. Incidentally, would this apply only to our Antiochian brothers, or would this also include those in the Ecumenical Patriarchate?
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« Reply #239 on: December 14, 2008, 06:42:56 AM »

This would be of great help to Filipino Orthodox. Incidentally, would this apply only to our Antiochian brothers, or would this also include those in the Ecumenical Patriarchate?
This is what the Antiochians have asked for.
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« Reply #240 on: January 21, 2009, 06:06:02 AM »

it is very clear that the Patriarch of Antioch has jurisdiction over all the east.

So what is Antioch doing in the West?

Undecided

If you look at this post by a Catholic Filipino, it is a good question.  Does anybody think there is any truth in these disturbing words?

http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/307388/Re:%20Eastern%20Orthodox%20switching#Post307388

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« Reply #241 on: January 21, 2009, 06:18:57 AM »

Someone sent these video clips of the Antiochians in the Philippines.  I haven't see them myself; my computer is a bit slow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxTs5lGKe0k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvAd1IZqiYU&feature=related
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« Reply #242 on: January 21, 2009, 10:45:37 AM »

it is very clear that the Patriarch of Antioch has jurisdiction over all the east.

So what is Antioch doing in the West?

Undecided

If you look at this post by a Catholic Filipino, it is a good question.  Does anybody think there is any truth in these disturbing words?

http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/307388/Re:%20Eastern%20Orthodox%20switching#Post307388



What words in particular?

Why would anyone committed to the Novus Ordo want to embrace Orthodoxy?

Father, you mention a NO Orthodox parish in Florida.  Where is that?
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« Reply #243 on: January 21, 2009, 03:56:05 PM »

[
Father, you mention a NO Orthodox parish in Florida.  Where is that?
Florida is somewhere on the States.   Sorry, but I am not too clear on American geography.

The parish was mentioned on the Weste Rite list Occidentalis.
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« Reply #244 on: January 21, 2009, 04:15:24 PM »

Florida is somewhere on the States.   Sorry, but I am not too clear on American geography.
That big peninsula on the extreme southeastern corner of the U.S.A., FYI.
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« Reply #245 on: January 21, 2009, 04:26:22 PM »

Florida is somewhere on the States.   Sorry, but I am not too clear on American geography.
That big peninsula on the extreme southeastern corner of the U.S.A., FYI.
Not close to Alaska then?
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« Reply #246 on: January 21, 2009, 07:20:34 PM »

Florida is somewhere on the States.   Sorry, but I am not too clear on American geography.
That big peninsula on the extreme southeastern corner of the U.S.A., FYI.
Not close to Alaska then?
I'd say probably 5000 miles separate the two states.
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« Reply #247 on: January 21, 2009, 11:37:06 PM »

Father Deacon Martinian of the ROCOR in New York, once warned about the situation here in the Philippines and has told me to take extreme caution when dealing with "Orthodox" groups here. With all the fuss and confusion, sometimes I am compelled to leave the Antiochian Church and be under the Ecumenical Patriarchate.

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« Reply #248 on: January 24, 2009, 11:06:26 PM »

The article called "Enfants Terribles: The Challenge of Sectarian Converts to Ethnic Orthodox Churches" could be very useful here, maybe not simply to onlookers but also the Church authorities involved in the Philippines' outreach and mission.

There is a thread about this article in another section of the Forum.  People are trying to locate a copy.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,19383.0.html
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« Reply #249 on: January 25, 2009, 03:39:56 AM »

This is a video of a Greek Orthodox Parish of the Holy Trinity, in Laguna, Philippines..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biQKdNn2TtY
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« Reply #250 on: January 26, 2009, 07:48:49 AM »

If you look at this post by a Catholic Filipino, it is a good question.  Does anybody think there is any truth in these disturbing words?

http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/307388/Re:%20Eastern%20Orthodox%20switching#Post307388



Please see for yourself in order to be convinced and please don't forget to count the number of Hierarchs, Primates, Patriarchs etc.,:



SOURCE: Philippine Securities and Exchange Commission
http://www.sec.gov.ph/




===========

"The recent establishment of an Antiochian jurisdiction in the Philippines has occasioned no small controversy and scandal. In addition to the apparent animosity that developed between the Greek and Antiochian jurisdictions over Met. Paul Saliba's un-publicized visits and mass ordinations of former Protestant and vagante ministers and priests, there is also the question of the liturgy. The new "Antiochian" priests offer the Novus Ordo with all the typical Filipino liturgical abuses (no alb under the chasuble, just street clothes; stole on top of chasuble or chasu-alb, etc.) and this has resulted in not a few people mistaking them for Roman Catholics.

Personally, as an observer on the sidelines, I am deeply troubled by the Antiochian enterprise; not so much because it is an "invasion" of a traditionally Catholic country, but because of the kind of people they are dealing with.

Please realize that the Philippines has a very bad "episcopi vagantes" mania, with dozens of them all over the place, claiming apostolic succession from this or that Patriarch, etc. Most of these groups pose as "Orthodox" or as "Eastern Catholic", and given the general ignorance of people here about Orthodoxy (something that isn't surprising at all), a lot of people do mistake these vagantes as the real Orthodox or Eastern Catholic! Indeed, a few years ago, a man posing as a Byzantine Catholic bishop fooled the Cardinal Archbishop of Manila into granting him an audience and inviting him to an important occasion. Only when another, more suspicious archbishop asked the Vatican to verify did it turn out that the man was a member of an American vagante group trying to establish itself in the Philippines.

Now, to make matters worse, many of these so-called "Orthodox" offer the Novus Ordo or something very similar, not the Byzantine Liturgy or any Eastern liturgy. One big group calling itself the "Byzantine Catholic Church Incorporated" -- its headquarters are a mere 15 minutes away from my house -- offers a "Syrian Qurbono" with "inculturated vestments and language" (go figure) and claims to be part of the "Assyrian Church". I wonder what Mar Dinkha IV will make of their married episcopate and their "Carmelite" friars!

And now, you have (presumably) real Orthodox priests acting just like these vagantes, calling themselves Eastern but offering the usual Filipino Latin Rite mass? I really wonder if the Antiochian Patriarchate knows what it is getting into by accepting marginal Protestants and ex-vagantes! Personally, my fear is that the brand-new Antiochian priests will end up establishing their own vagante community. God forbid that it happen: we have too many vagantes already. I hope that, at the very least, Antioch will insist that these new priests learn the Byzantine Rite asap."

SOURCE: The Byzantine Forum: excerpted from the comment of Asianpilgim on 12/17/08
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/307388/Re:%20Eastern%20Orthodox%20switching#Post307388



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« Reply #251 on: January 26, 2009, 12:15:56 PM »

The histories I get about the Phillipines, that the Russians under St. John didn't evangelize to the Filippinos strike me as a little odd, as St. John's whole life was spent evangelizing wherever he went (e.g. his support of the Gallican rite while in France).  I find it hard to believe that he made an exception for the Fillipinos.  I am a little suspicious that this is meant to undercut rival claims by the EP, much like the promotion of the New Smyrna colony (not Orthodox by any account) and Holy Trinity Parish in New Orleans (predated by the the Russian cathedral in San Francisco, let alone Alaska) is used in the US.


Most of the  'Archbishops', 'Primates', 'Patriarchs'(!), 'Katolikos'(!) of so-called "orthodox" churches in the Philippines listed in my previous post claim their canonical apostolic succession from the consecrating hands of John Maximovitch. They have no evidence whatsoever to prove their claims. If anyone of you want to become an Orthodox Patriarch or Katolikos then come to the Philippines.











Please note the conflicting information on the alleged year of consecration. By the way, the "Primatial Vicar" has since affiliated with canonical Orthodoxy (he is now a priest under the EP).

 
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« Reply #252 on: January 26, 2009, 09:52:18 PM »

If anyone of you want to become an Orthodox Patriarch or Katolikos then come to the Philippines.

You don't have to go to the Philipines filipiana! There are more than enough strange, fringe groups claiming to be "Orthodox" in Australia, the US, the UK and everywhere! About 11kms from me is a "Bishop David", an ex-Roman Catholic Benedictine Monk who claims apostolic succession from "The Ukrainian Church" and can't understand why none of the local Orthodox Churches under the EP, Antioch, Moscow or ROCOR take him seriously or are in Communion with him. In his mind, it's they that have the problem!
Although the fringe groups will disagree, (especially the ones convinced that they alone are the remaining "treasury of Orthodoxy"), Communion with the Ancient Patriarchates is, in the opinion of most Orthodox Christians, the acid test of whether one is in the Church or not.
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« Reply #253 on: January 27, 2009, 02:58:34 AM »

Someone sent these video clips of the Antiochians in the Philippines.  I haven't see them myself; my computer is a bit slow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxTs5lGKe0k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvAd1IZqiYU&feature=related


There are also many in the Philippines who has slow computers so for their sake I will re-post a photo collage by Aftimios  which I believe was taken from that said Youtube video presenting the ordination of several Filipinos into canonical Orthodox priesthood by the Antiochian Primate of the Philippines.



        His Eminence, Metropolitan Archbishop Paul Saliba with his newly ordained Antiochian Orthodox priests in Manila

Notice the vestments worn by this newly ordained canonical Antiochian Orthodox priests and compare it with the vestments worn by "uncanonical", "episcopi vagantes" and "so-called orthodox" priests/clergymen in the Philippines:





To whom do you think these  clergymen belongs? (Roman Catholic, Episcopi Vagantes or to the Antiochian Orthodox?). You can't hardly tell the difference.




Now,  see how canonical Orthodox clergymen in the Philippines under the EP looks like:




As the old English proverb says: "Birds of the same feathers flock together".

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« Reply #254 on: January 27, 2009, 04:04:21 AM »


The histories I get about the Phillipines, that the Russians under St. John didn't evangelize to the Filippinos strike me as a little odd, as St. John's whole life was spent evangelizing wherever he went (e.g. his support of the Gallican rite while in France).  I find it hard to believe that he made an exception for the Fillipinos. 

I find it hard to believe that if the Filipinos were  "evangelized" by John Maximovitch then we won't be having so many episcopi vagantes, uncanonical "orthodox" Primates, Patriarchs(!), Catholicos (!) etc. in the Philippines! The Filipinos should be glad that John Maximovitch did not follow the footsteps of the Antiochian Orthodox clergyman Aftimios Ofiesh in America otherwise the uncanonical orthodox situation in the Philippines will be even much worse than in the US!

The Filipino sitting on the middle with a long stainless steel staff is one of the many "orthodox" Patriarchs(!!!) in the Philippines. He is the successor of the Filipino "orthodox" bishop who claims to have been consecrated by John Maximovitch himself.  Notice the Russian/Slavonic styled cross that he wore. The same type of cross can be seen on the stoles of  "orthodox" clergymen in this picture:




So is this the result of John Maximovitch's evangelization of Filipinos?  You decide for yourself. By the way, this particular "orthodox" church believes in reincarnation. They also have married episcopacy like all of the other so-called "orthodox" churches in the Philippines.


"By their fruits ye shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?"
          Matthew 7:16


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« Reply #255 on: January 28, 2009, 12:47:08 AM »

The histories I get about the Phillipines, that the Russians under St. John didn't evangelize to the Filippinos strike me as a little odd, as St. John's whole life was spent evangelizing wherever he went (e.g. his support of the Gallican rite while in France).  I find it hard to believe that he made an exception for the Fillipinos.  I am a little suspicious that this is meant to undercut rival claims by the EP, much like the promotion of the New Smyrna colony (not Orthodox by any account) and Holy Trinity Parish in New Orleans (predated by the the Russian cathedral in San Francisco, let alone Alaska) is used in the US. But the history of what has gone on in the US with the EP (let alone in Antioch, and the Greeks in Jerusalem) makes me wary of what is going on in the Phillipines.

This is especially for you ialmisry. Enjoy reading:





The pictures below are in the PUBLIC DOMAIN.  To see more click HERE



HIS BEATITUDE +PAPPAS MAR JESUS THE FIRST

"He is the present Patriarch, Grand Pontiff & Primate of the Holy Orthodox Catholic Apostolic Church of Jesus Christ in the Philippines.

These are the Pontifical Titles under Him:

> Patriarch of the Greaco - Russian - Latin Rite Orthodoc (sic) Christians of Manila and of all the Philippines;

> Grand Pontiff of the Holy Orthodox Catholic Apostolic Church of Jesus Christ in the Philippines;

> Archbishop of Manila;

> Primate of the Philippines

> Permanent Apostolic Administrator of the Philippine Orthodox Church;

> Successor of St. Andrew the Apostle throught the Russian church;

> Ecuminical (sic) Father of the Far East;

> Prince of Truth, Faith, Hope and Love

The youngest of all the Patriarchs in the whole world. He succeded (sic) His Pontifical Trone (sic) from His Beatitude + Pappas Mar Miguel I.

In real life He is the Most Rev. Archbishop ARTURO I. DE JESUS, D.D.

He is the present Patriarch, Grand Pontiff & Primate of the Holy Orthodox Catholic Apostolic Church of Jesus Christ in the Philippines."


Quoted from http://hocacjcphils.multiply.com/photos/album/4/His_Beatitude_Pappas_Mar_Jesus_the_First#1



HIS BEATITUDE +PAPPAS MAR JESUS THE FIRST

Notice the Hexagram Symbol (Solomon's seal) and the Egyptian Ankh that he wore.  The Hexagram is said to be an ancient pagan emblem symbolizing  "the very soul of magic, astrology and divination." Whereas, the Egyptian Ankh is "the symbol of eternal life, rebirth (REINCARNATION), and the life-giving power of the sun-god."  (Pls. see Elizabeth Goldsmith, ANCIENT PAGAN SYMBOLS (New York: The Knickerbocker Press, 1929, reprinted by A.M.S. Press Inc., New York), p.150.

So now you see ialmisry the fruits of John Maximovitch's "evangelization" of Filipinos. Are you happy now?



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« Reply #256 on: January 28, 2009, 08:47:50 AM »

The histories I get about the Phillipines, that the Russians under St. John didn't evangelize to the Filippinos strike me as a little odd, as St. John's whole life was spent evangelizing wherever he went (e.g. his support of the Gallican rite while in France).  I find it hard to believe that he made an exception for the Fillipinos.  I am a little suspicious that this is meant to undercut rival claims by the EP, much like the promotion of the New Smyrna colony (not Orthodox by any account) and Holy Trinity Parish in New Orleans (predated by the the Russian cathedral in San Francisco, let alone Alaska) is used in the US. But the history of what has gone on in the US with the EP (let alone in Antioch, and the Greeks in Jerusalem) makes me wary of what is going on in the Phillipines.

This is especially for you ialmisry. Enjoy reading:

So now you see ialmisry the fruits of John Maximovitch's "evangelization" of Filipinos. Are you happy now?

Are you angry at St. John?

One thing I am suspicious about is the claim to ordination of bishops.  Itr requires three bishops, St. John was only one.  Where to they claim the other two came from?
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« Reply #257 on: January 28, 2009, 09:44:32 PM »

Are you angry at St. John?

One thing I am suspicious about is the claim to ordination of bishops.  Itr requires three bishops, St. John was only one.  Where to they claim the other two came from?

It is quite suspicious as to the claim of the "Orthodox" bishop above; if you will notice, his coat-of-arms is suspiciously like that of the Pope. Already there you'll see how dubious is this claim that he came from the line of St. John.
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« Reply #258 on: January 28, 2009, 11:05:23 PM »

Are you angry at St. John?

I think you're misrepresenting things again in the same way you misrepresent the history of Greek Orthodoxy in the Philippines by comparing it with "what has gone on in the US with the EP".  Please do a little bit of research yourself  and stop imagining things* okay?


__________
* that the Filipinos were "evangelized" by John Maximovitch and that he consecrated Filipinos to the Orthodox Episcopacy.
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« Reply #259 on: January 28, 2009, 11:58:14 PM »

Are you angry at St. John?

I think you're misrepresenting things again in the same way you misrepresent the history of Greek Orthodoxy in the Philippines by comparing it with "what has gone on in the US with the EP".  Please do a little bit of research yourself  and stop imagining things* okay?


__________
* that the Filipinos were "evangelized" by John Maximovitch and that he consecrated Filipinos to the Orthodox Episcopacy.

I haven't imagined anything, just questioned.   I question that St. John never evangelized anyone in the Phillippines, as it is so out of character with the rest of his life; I question the EP so stating, as I have seen similar statements, unfounded, about the US; and I question that any bishop was consecrated by St. John in the Phillipines, as I don't know where the other two bishops would come from, and I doubt St. John would ordain without oversight from ROCOR.
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« Reply #260 on: January 29, 2009, 03:02:04 AM »

Are you angry at St. John?

I think you're misrepresenting things again in the same way you misrepresent the history of Greek Orthodoxy in the Philippines by comparing it with "what has gone on in the US with the EP".  Please do a little bit of research yourself  and stop imagining things* okay?


__________
* that the Filipinos were "evangelized" by John Maximovitch and that he consecrated Filipinos to the Orthodox Episcopacy.

I haven't imagined anything, just questioned.   I question that St. John never evangelized anyone in the Phillippines, as it is so out of character with the rest of his life; I question the EP so stating, as I have seen similar statements, unfounded, about the US.....

What does the EP states? Could you give me the links to the articles so that I and the other thread viewers can read and verify your allegations? Otherwise what you're telling here are just rumors (or maybe purely hearsays or worst your very imaginations) meant to discredit the EP. 

You can not discredit the EP jurisdiction in the Philippines. Its people from your jurisdiction who has been misrepresenting Orthodoxy in my country by looking and acting like the vagantes. Its a shame....


                          ANTIOCHIAN ORTHODOXY IN THE PHILIPPINES


.
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« Reply #261 on: January 29, 2009, 06:54:19 AM »

 Cry


I'm so confused now!!!
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« Reply #262 on: January 29, 2009, 09:30:12 AM »

Cry


I'm so confused now!!!


and so are the Roman Catholics also who have observed the Novus Ordo type "Orthodox" liturgies performed by these canonical Antiochian Orthodox priests in the Philippines dressed as Roman Catholic priests!
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« Reply #263 on: January 29, 2009, 10:16:28 AM »

My question is why so difficult for the antiochian guys to follow the byzantine rite?

I always remember the late filipino protopresbyteros p. Tarasios(aionia autou i mnimi!),who was a very simple humble person,married and with five children,never got rich in his life. But he always serve with canonical standard vestment .

I'll never forget ,when he received a set of priestly vestment (which was used and old)as gift from a local bishop of other metropolis where he visited,he was so happy and smiled like child. In the return trip he opened the package looked and touched the vestment again and again.

So,why H.E.Paul could not do the same thing? It's too difficult for H.E. to collect some old and used vestments from his Metropolis?

My beloved pater Tarasios also confessed that he was not accomplished in liturgic.But he still tried his best,to observe the Typikon as far as he could ,with much love.

I'll never forget,once he came to me with the evangelion and asked me for one certain day,the perikopi of reading should be taken form "the week" or "the feast".We checked diptycha together and found the right one.Again he got so happy.

This was the agathe memory one humble and faithful priest under EP left for me.He was filipino,not served in capital,not rich,not specialized on liturgical stuff....But for his whole life ,he followed the way of the Tradition and was happy for this.
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« Reply #264 on: January 29, 2009, 10:41:24 AM »

Hasn't someone posted here that Novus Ordo Missae is just for a short period of time and they would switch to St. John Goldenmouth Liturgy?
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« Reply #265 on: January 29, 2009, 10:49:49 AM »

Are you angry at St. John?

I think you're misrepresenting things again in the same way you misrepresent the history of Greek Orthodoxy in the Philippines by comparing it with "what has gone on in the US with the EP".  Please do a little bit of research yourself  and stop imagining things* okay?


__________
* that the Filipinos were "evangelized" by John Maximovitch and that he consecrated Filipinos to the Orthodox Episcopacy.

I haven't imagined anything, just questioned.   I question that St. John never evangelized anyone in the Phillippines, as it is so out of character with the rest of his life; I question the EP so stating, as I have seen similar statements, unfounded, about the US.....

What does the EP states? Could you give me the links to the articles so that I and the other thread viewers can read and verify your allegations? Otherwise what you're telling here are just rumors (or maybe purely hearsays or worst your very imaginations) meant to discredit the EP.

Just the same information that has been put on this thread that St. John didn't evangelize the filipinos while there.  Due to the isolation, it is not imposible, but I've learned to question such blacket statements, especially when I smell an axe being ground.

Quote
You can not discredit the EP jurisdiction in the Philippines. Its people from your jurisdiction who has been misrepresenting Orthodoxy

How's that?

Quote
in my country by looking and acting like the vagantes. Its a shame....

details?

Given the results of the Evangelical Orthodox in the US, and in view of their "reception" at the phanar, I'd like to know what exactly are you accusing Antioch of, when you say "acting like vagantes."

As for the appearance, I'm still not clear on what the idea is on Eastern or Western rite.  I agree with you that they should, unless a reason is given and authorized (like, perhaps translations), use the already approved Orthodox WRO missal.


                          ANTIOCHIAN ORTHODOXY IN THE PHILIPPINES


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« Reply #266 on: January 29, 2009, 10:51:35 AM »

Hasn't someone posted here that Novus Ordo Missae is just for a short period of time and they would switch to St. John Goldenmouth Liturgy?

I still don't get why anyone NO would want to become Orthodox and stick to NO.
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« Reply #267 on: January 29, 2009, 11:34:04 AM »

This is the reason why Orthodoxy in the Philippines is until now seen as a cult and not a Christian Church, not True Church and being scorned by other Christian Churches especially by those whom we called uncanonical because those who are in authority are the one doing these uncanonical acts...

Is it not we are hypocrite when we try to condemned the Vatican of prosyletyzing Orthodox countries with uniatism when in fact our hieararchs are guilty of the same issue by promoting western rite such as in the case of Filipino converts?

If the problem of EP is lack of fund in training her priests in the Philippines, why can't just the other Bishops help instead of doing something that would violate the canon or break simple protocol... Quezon City is just two hours away from the site where the Annunciation Cathedral is located...

And the worst is, both domestic and international airports in Manila is just 20 minutes away from the site of the Cathedral... why, with brotherly love and for the sake of Orthodoxy His Eminence Paul did not dropped by the Church to give thanks and acknowledge that there is a holy temple of God built where Orthodox Christians can pray and come together as one family...

As far as I remember, the new elected Patriarch Kirill of Moscow and All Russia when he was a Metropolitan then visited Manila in 2004 or 2005 , dropped by the Annunciation Cathedral and in joy give thanks and pray for the goodness of the Holy Mother Church in the Philippines... OHMKSEA was aware of it and the same thing when Met. Nikitas went to China and visited a Russian Church, the adminstrator of MP was aware of the visit...

Well, I hope, in humility and as brother in faith, our hierarchs, in wisdom and by the responsibility given to them will act accordingly because at the end, it is us the faithful who suffer....

May our Lord forgive me a sinner!
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« Reply #268 on: January 29, 2009, 11:42:28 AM »

This is the reason why Orthodoxy in the Philippines is until now seen as a cult and not a Christian Church, not True Church and being scorned by other Christian Churches especially by those whom we called uncanonical because those who are in authority are the one doing these uncanonical acts...

Which uncanonical act are you talking about?
Quote
Is it not we are hypocrite when we try to condemned the Vatican of prosyletyzing Orthodox countries with uniatism when in fact our hieararchs are guilty of the same issue by promoting western rite such as in the case of Filipino converts?
No.

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« Reply #269 on: January 29, 2009, 12:06:57 PM »

As you requested... not to add the title of being the Archbishop of Australia, New Zealnd and the Philippines... you have to remember that the three Islands of Philippines were well represented already by clergies and faithful of the EP, which Arch. Paul is aware of... Again, we would be happy to serve each other if only we will do what is right and what we are ought to do... let us not be carried away by our pride or anger or... tell us to know what to do because we Filipino are not stupid not to understand this simple protocol, people here are tired of Christian sects and we embraced Orthodoxy because we believed that she has the fullness of truth and spirituality but this current situation and this kind of discussion does not refelect the true values of Orthodoxy and to this, I rest my case... God bless you Ialmisry!

From: http://www.holytrinitymission.org/books/english/cannons_apostles_rudder.htm

34. It behoves the Bishops of every nation to know the one among them who is the premier or chief, and to recognise him as their head, and to refrain from doing anything superfluous without his advice and approval: but, instead, each of them should do only whatever is necessitated by his own parish and by the territories under him. But let not even such a one do anything without the advice and consent and approval of all. For thus will there be concord, and God will be glorified through the Lord in Holy Spirit, the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

(cc. VI, VII of the 1st; cc. II, III of the 2nd; c. VIII of the 3rd; o. XXVIII of the 4th; cc. XXXVI, XXXIX of the 6th; c. IX of Antioch.).

Interpretation.

Just as, when the head is unwell and fails to function properly, the other members of the body also are ill disposed or even utterly useless, so and in like manner it may be said that if the one acting as head in the Church does not honor her fitly, all the rest of the body of the Church will be out of order and unable to function. It is for this reason that the present Canon ordains that all bishops of every province ought to know who is the chief among them, i.e., the metropolitan; and ought to regard him as their head, and not to do anything unnecessary without consulting him, as respecting, that is to say, anything that does not pertain to the parishes of their bishoprics, but, extending beyond these limits, have to do with the common condition of the whole province, as, for instance, do questions concerning the dogmas, matters involving adjustments and corrections of common mistakes, the installation and ordination of prelates, and other similar things. Instead, they are to meet with the metropolitan and confer with him in regard to such common matters, and decide in common on what appears to them the best thing to be done. Each of the bishops should do by himself, without consulting his metropolitan, only those things that are confined to the limits and boundaries of his bishopric and to the territories that are subject thereto. But just as bishops should do nothing of common interest without consulting the metropolitan, so and in like manner a metropolitan ought not to do anything of such common interest alone and by himself without consulting all his bishops. For in this way there will be concord and love, both between bishops and metropolitans and between clergymen and laymen. The outcome of this concord and love will be that God the Father will be glorified through His Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, who acquainted men with the name of His Father and laid down the law requiring love, when He said: "By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one for another" (John 13:35). And He will be glorified in His Holy Spirit, which through Its grace has united us in one spiritual association. That is the same as saying that as a result of this concord the Holy Trinity — the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit — will be glorified, in accordance with the voice of the Gospel which says: "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and may glorify your Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 5:16).

Concord.

Almost identically the same things are seen to be ordained also in c. IX of Antioch. That is why c. VI of the First Ecumenical Council commands that the ancient customs are to hold; those, that is to say, which had been prevalent in accordance with this Ap. c.; so that the patriarch of Alexandria had control of affairs in Egypt and Libya and Pentapolis, since such was also the custom in connection with the patriarch of Rome too. Likewise the patriarch of Antioch had control of his own provinces; and, in general, the same privileges were preserved to every Church and Metropolis, so that every metropolitan should have control over the provinces subject to him. Canon VII of the same Council ordains that the patriarch of Aelia, i.e., of Jerusalem, is to have the observance of the ancient honor and the dignity of his own Metropolis, Canon III of the 2nd commands that the patriarch of Constantinople is to have the highest honor. Canon VIII of the 3rd, too, demands that the rights belonging to each province be free from constraint and impurity again even as in the beginning, according to the old custom, and especially as respects those of Cyprus. In addition, c. XXXIX of the 6th confirms the same c. VIII of the 3rd.

 

35. A Bishop shall not dare to confer ordinations outside of his own boundaries, in cities and, territories not subject to him. If he be proved to have done so against the wishes of those having possession of those cities or territories, let him be deposed, as well as those whom he ordained.

(c. II of the 2nd; c. VIII of the 3rd; c. XX of the 6th; cc. XIII, XXII of Antioch; cc. Ill, XI, XII of’the Sardican.).

Interpretation.

This Canon too was ordained for the concord and good order of bishops and metropolitans. It says in effect that a bishop ought not to dare to confer ordinations outside of the boundaries of his bishopric, or to perform any other ecclesiastical function in those cities and countries that are not within his own territory (but neither has a metropolitan the liberty to go into the parishes of his bishops and perform ordinations or any other prelatical ceremony). Only then has he the liberty to perform such functions, when he has been invited by the bishop of the region in question. If, nevertheless, it transpire that he did this without the consent and permission of the bishops who control those cities and territories, let him be deposed who ordained men beyond his boundaries, together with those whom he ordained. For in such a case it would appear that there were two bishops in one and the same place, or two metropolitans, which is unlawful and prohibited by c. VIII of the 1st, and by c. XII of the 4th.

Hence, in its c. XX the Sixth Ecum. C. ordains that whoever goes to a strange bishopric and publicly teaches on his own account and of his own accord, without the local bishop’s permission, shall lose his position in the prelacy and shall be allowed to perform only the functions of a presbyter. Perhaps for no other purpose was this provision made than that of preventing the occurrence of this absurd anomaly, to wit, that of having two bishops at the same time in the same bishopric, one wanting this and the other that, which he dared to do. For if that was not the purpose that this council had in mind, why should it degrade the bishop to the rank of a presbyter, at a time when this degradation amounts to sacrilege, according to c. XXIX of the 4th? Besides, if a bishop teaching beyond his boundaries is unworthy, he ought to be unworthy also of the presbytery; but if he is worthy of the presbytery, why should he not be worthy also of the episcopate? So it is apparent that the reason why it reduces him to the rank of a presbyter is to leave one bishop again in one bishopric, and not two. For he sinned immediately against the episcopal office by causing two bishops to be in the same bishopric, on which account he is deposed therefrom; he did not sin, however, against the office of presbyter, since two or more presbyters are not prohibited from being in the same bishopric, wherefore neither is he deposed therefrom (although Zonaras and Balsamon say that anyone that teaches publicly contrary to the will of the local bishop is on this account reduced to the rank of presbyter, in order to humble him, on the ground that he became vainglorious and exalted himself). Hence sacred Photius (Title IX, ch. 11), to do away with the apparent contradiction of the canons — that is, of c. XXIX of the 4th and c. XX of the 6th -, proposed c. VIII of the 1st. Nevertheless, even when it comes to performing the office of a presbyter, a bishop from beyond the boundaries must obtain the permission and consent of the local bishop. If he does not have such permission, he cannot exercise the function; he simply has the standing of a laymen in that case as long as he remains in that foreign region, according to the canons. In order to sum up the entirety of the present Apostolical Canon, we may say thus: A bishop who performs a prelatical service in a strange bishopric, with the consent of the bishop thereof, is not performing it with the power and operation of his own episcopate (for in that case there would be two bishops in one bishopric as though possessing two distinct and separate powers and faculties); but, on the contrary, solely with the episcopal power and faculty of the local bishop (for in this case the two bishops are regarded as one bishop). And if this be so, as indeed it is, anyone that performs a prelatical function against the will of the local bishop, is deposed even from his own episcopal power, which, without possessing it, on the score of his being beyond his boundaries, he exercised; as well as from the strange episcopal power of the local bishop, which he might have possessed with the consent and permission of the latter, but which he stole and appropriated as his own.

Concord.

The same things are ordained also by c. II of the 2nd, wherein the latter prohibits anyone (whether a patriarch or a metropolitan) from meddling in other dioceses beyond his boundaries in order to perform ordinations or to execute other ecclesiastical accomodations. But still more is that true of c. VIII of the 3rd, which ordains that the bishop of Antioch shall not have authority to carry out ordinations in Cyprus, beyond the boundaries of that diocese, which, it says, is contrary to the Apostolical Canons, meaning the present one. Both c. XIII and c. XXIV of Antioch agree in ordaining that no bishop shall dare to meddle in a foreign province and perform any ordinations therein, except only in case he goes there provided with letters of the bishop inviting him; if he do so under contrary circumstances, the ordinations and all other services he may perform shall remain void and invalid. If, however, it so happen that one bishop has lands, say, and substantial property in the province of another bishop, c. XII of the Sardican allows him to go there in order to gather produce, and for three weeks’ duration to attend church in the church that is in the vicinity of his property, but not to go any closer to the city in which the bishop is. That a bishop may not even teach in territory beyond his own boundaries without the consent of the local bishop is stated in c. XX of the 6th above and in c. XI of the Sardican. Canon III of the Sardican, in fact, not only prohibits this, but does not even allow a bishop to go to the province of another bishop without being invited.
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