Author Topic: Old vs. New Calendar?  (Read 272824 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online TheMathematician

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,887
  • Formerly known as Montalo
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: ACROD
Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2835 on: May 12, 2015, 11:48:01 PM »
Honest question : would to be easier to have all churches change to the new calendar , or force all back to the old?

In other words, which of the above would result in the least schism.

Offline Maria

  • Orthodox Christian
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,771
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC
Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2836 on: May 13, 2015, 02:12:37 AM »
Honest question : would to be easier to have all churches change to the new calendar , or force all back to the old?

In other words, which of the above would result in the least schism.

Dropping the New Calendar would be the best way to go.
The majority of Orthodox Christians are following the Old Calendar.

It would certainly be a step in the right (Orthodox) direction.
Ἅγιος ὁ Θεός
Ἅγιος ἰσχυρός
Ἅγιος ἀθάνατος
ἐλέησον ἡμας

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 34,855
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2837 on: May 13, 2015, 03:42:28 AM »
Honest question : would to be easier to have all churches change to the new calendar , or force all back to the old?

In other words, which of the above would result in the least schism.
Having all churches adopt the New Calendar, or having them all return to the Old... either way would result in no schism.

Honestly, though, why pit greater astronomical accuracy against Church unity when you can have both?
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,440
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Diocese of the South (OCA)
Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2838 on: May 20, 2015, 10:46:58 AM »
Interesting article that says a main argument by Old Calendarists is based on a lie.

http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2011/02/old-calendarist-lie-of-codex-772.html

Offline Dominika

  • Troublesome Sheep
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,354
  • Serbian/Polish
    • My youtube channel
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Sth different than my heart belongs to
Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2839 on: May 21, 2015, 03:38:34 PM »
Interesting article that says a main argument by Old Calendarists is based on a lie.

http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2011/02/old-calendarist-lie-of-codex-772.html
Thanks for sharing :)
Pray for persecuted Christians, especially in Serbian Kosovo and Raška, Egypt and Syria

Offline Iconodule

  • Uranopolitan
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,747
  • "My god is greater."
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2840 on: May 21, 2015, 03:46:42 PM »
Interesting article that says a main argument by Old Calendarists is based on a lie.

http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2011/02/old-calendarist-lie-of-codex-772.html

Unfortunately this translation is in many parts nigh unreadable.

Offline Dominika

  • Troublesome Sheep
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,354
  • Serbian/Polish
    • My youtube channel
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Sth different than my heart belongs to
Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2841 on: May 21, 2015, 03:48:50 PM »
Interesting article that says a main argument by Old Calendarists is based on a lie.

http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2011/02/old-calendarist-lie-of-codex-772.html

Unfortunately this translation is in many parts nigh unreadable.
Indeed, I've also observed that translation is not of the best quality; that's quite surprising, as the author of the blog usually prepares very good articles, translated very well. Anyway, better that than nothing
Pray for persecuted Christians, especially in Serbian Kosovo and Raška, Egypt and Syria

Offline Mockingbird

  • Mimus polyglottos
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 210
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Episcopal Church
Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2842 on: June 06, 2015, 11:53:02 AM »
Interesting article that says a main argument by Old Calendarists is based on a lie.

http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2011/02/old-calendarist-lie-of-codex-772.html
This is old news.  At least some of the Old Calendarists are already aware that the text of the sigillon has been manipulated, and have found ways to argue their position without relying on that text.
Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.--Byrhtferth of Ramsey

Offline Mockingbird

  • Mimus polyglottos
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 210
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Episcopal Church
Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2843 on: June 06, 2015, 12:00:22 PM »
Honest question : would to be easier to have all churches change to the new calendar , or force all back to the old?

In other words, which of the above would result in the least schism.

Why not simply allow the church in each place to pick a paschalion--Julian, Gregorian, or Milankovic--without breaking communion with the others?  You already do this in the case of Finland.  Eventually everyone would go on the Gregorian or Milankovic paschalion because the Julian paschalion is so obviously defective.  Roger Bacon's complaint in the 13th century that "any rustic can see the error in the sky" is even truer today than it was then.  Now, even city-slickers can see the error in the sky.
Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.--Byrhtferth of Ramsey

Offline Jonathan Gress

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,539
Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2844 on: June 06, 2015, 01:11:00 PM »
Honest question : would to be easier to have all churches change to the new calendar , or force all back to the old?

In other words, which of the above would result in the least schism.

Why not simply allow the church in each place to pick a paschalion--Julian, Gregorian, or Milankovic--without breaking communion with the others?  You already do this in the case of Finland.  Eventually everyone would go on the Gregorian or Milankovic paschalion because the Julian paschalion is so obviously defective.  Roger Bacon's complaint in the 13th century that "any rustic can see the error in the sky" is even truer today than it was then.  Now, even city-slickers can see the error in the sky.

The problem is that the church also mandated celebrating Pascha on the same dates. In practice, as we saw with Finland, the other churches aren't willing to break communion even over this. It seems they only care about the issue when groups in their own jurisdictions disagree with the reforms and refuse to follow along.

Also, I doubt city-slickers would have a clue if they didn't read about it on the internet. Who actually has that kind of astronomical knowledge outside of a few hobbyists and professionals?
« Last Edit: June 06, 2015, 01:12:05 PM by Jonathan Gress »

Offline Mockingbird

  • Mimus polyglottos
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 210
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Episcopal Church
Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2845 on: June 06, 2015, 01:55:09 PM »
Honest question : would to be easier to have all churches change to the new calendar , or force all back to the old?

In other words, which of the above would result in the least schism.

Why not simply allow the church in each place to pick a paschalion--Julian, Gregorian, or Milankovic--without breaking communion with the others?  You already do this in the case of Finland.  Eventually everyone would go on the Gregorian or Milankovic paschalion because the Julian paschalion is so obviously defective.  Roger Bacon's complaint in the 13th century that "any rustic can see the error in the sky" is even truer today than it was then.  Now, even city-slickers can see the error in the sky.

The problem is that the church also mandated celebrating Pascha on the same dates.
Which we will eventually get back to, if we allow ourselves a transition such as I proposed above.

Also, I doubt city-slickers would have a clue if they didn't read about it on the internet. Who actually has that kind of astronomical knowledge outside of a few hobbyists and professionals?

The only astronomical knowledge that one needs in order to see that the Julian paschalion is wrong is the knowledge that a full moon does not look like this:

Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.--Byrhtferth of Ramsey

Offline Jonathan Gress

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,539
Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2846 on: June 06, 2015, 02:27:07 PM »
That assumes you can see the moon through the smog. :D

But yeah, I agree if the whole switched at once to a more correct calendar, that would be better.

Offline Father H

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,652
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Nea Roma
Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2847 on: June 08, 2015, 12:21:27 AM »
Honest question : would to be easier to have all churches change to the new calendar , or force all back to the old?

In other words, which of the above would result in the least schism.

Why not simply allow the church in each place to pick a paschalion--Julian, Gregorian, or Milankovic--without breaking communion with the others?  You already do this in the case of Finland.  Eventually everyone would go on the Gregorian or Milankovic paschalion because the Julian paschalion is so obviously defective.  Roger Bacon's complaint in the 13th century that "any rustic can see the error in the sky" is even truer today than it was then.  Now, even city-slickers can see the error in the sky.

The problem is that the church also mandated celebrating Pascha on the same dates.
Which we will eventually get back to, if we allow ourselves a transition such as I proposed above.

Also, I doubt city-slickers would have a clue if they didn't read about it on the internet. Who actually has that kind of astronomical knowledge outside of a few hobbyists and professionals?

The only astronomical knowledge that one needs in order to see that the Julian paschalion is wrong is the knowledge that a full moon does not look like this:



14 Aviv/Nisan was never a full moon by our modern definition.  This is because the new moon (1 Aviv/Nisan) was not, in ancient times, the dark moon, but rather what we call the "young crescent."   The new moon (new month) was in ancient times defined by the first appearance of the moon AFTER it was dark, and began to appear once again. 

Offline Mockingbird

  • Mimus polyglottos
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 210
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Episcopal Church
Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2848 on: June 08, 2015, 10:29:00 PM »
14 Aviv/Nisan was never a full moon by our modern definition.  This is because the new moon (1 Aviv/Nisan) was not, in ancient times, the dark moon, but rather what we call the "young crescent."   The new moon (new month) was in ancient times defined by the first appearance of the moon AFTER it was dark, and began to appear once again.
An average synodic lunar month is 29.530589 days.  Half of this is 14.7652945 days.  If the first day of the lunar month begins nominally 24 hours after mean conjunction, then mean opposition will occur on the 14th day of the lunar month, around noon.

Here are the oppositions for 2013-2017 (UT), together with my computation of the 14th day of the month in the Gregorian lunar calendar:

Code: [Select]
Opposition (UT) 14th of Gregorian lunar month Day of Gregorian lunar month
on which opposition occurs
Jan 27 2013 Jan 27 14
Feb 25 Feb 25 14
Mar 27 Mar 27 14
Apr 25 Apr 25 14
May 25 May 25 14
Jun 23 Jun 23 14
Jul 22 Jul 23 13
Aug 21 Aug 21 14
Sep 19 Sep 20 13
Oct 18 Oct 19 13
Nov 17 Nov 18 13
Dec 17 Dec 17 14
Jan 16 2014 Jan 15 15
Feb 14 Feb 14 14
Mar 16 Mar 15 15
Apr 15 Apr 14 15
May 14 May 13 15
Jun 13 Jun 12 15
Jul 12 Jul 11 15
Aug 10 Aug 10 14
Sep  9 Sep  8 15
Oct  8 Oct  8 14
Nov  6 Nov  6 14
Dec  6 Dec  6 14
Jan  5 2015 Jan  4 15
Feb  3 Feb  3 14
Mar  5 Mar  4 15
Apr  4 Apr  3 15
Jun  2 Jun  1 15
Jul  2 Jun 30 16
Jul 31 Jul 30 15
Aug 29 Aug 28 15
Sep 28 Sep 28 14
Oct 27 Oct 26 15
Nov 25 Nov 25 14
Dec 25 Dec 25 14
Jan 24 2016 Jan 23 15
Feb 22 Feb 21 15
Mar 23 Mar 23 14
Apr 22 Apr 21 15
May 21 May 21 14
Jun 20 Jun 19 15
Jul 19 Jul 19 14
Aug 18 Aug 17 15
Sep 16 Sep 16 14
Oct 16 Oct 15 15
Nov 14 Nov 14 14
Dec 14 Dec 13 14
Jan 12 2017 Jan 12 14
Feb 11 Feb 11 14
Mar 12 Mar 12 14
Apr 11 Apr 11 14
May 10 May 10 14
Jun  9 Jun  9 14
Jul  9 Jul  8 15
Aug  7 Aug  7 14
Sep  6 Sep  5 15
Oct  5 Oct  5 14
Nov  4 Nov  3 15
Dec  3 Dec  3 14
As you see, the true opposition wobbles about the 14th day of the Gregorian lunar month, falling sometimes as early as the 13th, sometimes as late as the 16th.  The occasions when it falls on the 13th or 14th number 36 of 60, or a majority. This is about as good a correlation between the full moon and the 14th day of the calendar lunar month as can be expected from a lunar calendar based on the mean lunation and constrained to be cyclic in the civil calendar.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2015, 10:29:55 PM by Mockingbird »
Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.--Byrhtferth of Ramsey

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • The Fourteenth Apostle and Judge of the Interwebs
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,746
  • "I pledge allegiance to the flag..."
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Czech Lands
Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2849 on: June 08, 2015, 10:35:53 PM »
Good God...
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Quote
Bartholomew, 270th Archbishop of Constantinople-New Rome and Ecumenical Patriarch, is spiritual leader to 300 million Orthodox Christians throughout the world.

Offline TheTrisagion

  • The cat is back and its better than ever!
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,199
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2850 on: June 08, 2015, 10:41:39 PM »
^ what he said.
Guys! They're not intercoursing. It's just an unfortunate angle.