Author Topic: Old vs. New Calendar?  (Read 294974 times)

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Offline TheMathematician

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2835 on: May 12, 2015, 11:48:01 PM »
Honest question : would to be easier to have all churches change to the new calendar , or force all back to the old?

In other words, which of the above would result in the least schism.

Offline Maria

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2836 on: May 13, 2015, 02:12:37 AM »
Honest question : would to be easier to have all churches change to the new calendar , or force all back to the old?

In other words, which of the above would result in the least schism.

Dropping the New Calendar would be the best way to go.
The majority of Orthodox Christians are following the Old Calendar.

It would certainly be a step in the right (Orthodox) direction.
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Online PeterTheAleut

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2837 on: May 13, 2015, 03:42:28 AM »
Honest question : would to be easier to have all churches change to the new calendar , or force all back to the old?

In other words, which of the above would result in the least schism.
Having all churches adopt the New Calendar, or having them all return to the Old... either way would result in no schism.

Honestly, though, why pit greater astronomical accuracy against Church unity when you can have both?
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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2838 on: May 20, 2015, 10:46:58 AM »
Interesting article that says a main argument by Old Calendarists is based on a lie.

http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2011/02/old-calendarist-lie-of-codex-772.html

Offline Dominika

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2839 on: May 21, 2015, 03:38:34 PM »
Interesting article that says a main argument by Old Calendarists is based on a lie.

http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2011/02/old-calendarist-lie-of-codex-772.html
Thanks for sharing :)
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2840 on: May 21, 2015, 03:46:42 PM »
Interesting article that says a main argument by Old Calendarists is based on a lie.

http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2011/02/old-calendarist-lie-of-codex-772.html

Unfortunately this translation is in many parts nigh unreadable.

Offline Dominika

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2841 on: May 21, 2015, 03:48:50 PM »
Interesting article that says a main argument by Old Calendarists is based on a lie.

http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2011/02/old-calendarist-lie-of-codex-772.html

Unfortunately this translation is in many parts nigh unreadable.
Indeed, I've also observed that translation is not of the best quality; that's quite surprising, as the author of the blog usually prepares very good articles, translated very well. Anyway, better that than nothing
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Offline Mockingbird

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2842 on: June 06, 2015, 11:53:02 AM »
Interesting article that says a main argument by Old Calendarists is based on a lie.

http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2011/02/old-calendarist-lie-of-codex-772.html
This is old news.  At least some of the Old Calendarists are already aware that the text of the sigillon has been manipulated, and have found ways to argue their position without relying on that text.
Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.--Byrhtferth of Ramsey

Offline Mockingbird

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2843 on: June 06, 2015, 12:00:22 PM »
Honest question : would to be easier to have all churches change to the new calendar , or force all back to the old?

In other words, which of the above would result in the least schism.

Why not simply allow the church in each place to pick a paschalion--Julian, Gregorian, or Milankovic--without breaking communion with the others?  You already do this in the case of Finland.  Eventually everyone would go on the Gregorian or Milankovic paschalion because the Julian paschalion is so obviously defective.  Roger Bacon's complaint in the 13th century that "any rustic can see the error in the sky" is even truer today than it was then.  Now, even city-slickers can see the error in the sky.
Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.--Byrhtferth of Ramsey

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2844 on: June 06, 2015, 01:11:00 PM »
Honest question : would to be easier to have all churches change to the new calendar , or force all back to the old?

In other words, which of the above would result in the least schism.

Why not simply allow the church in each place to pick a paschalion--Julian, Gregorian, or Milankovic--without breaking communion with the others?  You already do this in the case of Finland.  Eventually everyone would go on the Gregorian or Milankovic paschalion because the Julian paschalion is so obviously defective.  Roger Bacon's complaint in the 13th century that "any rustic can see the error in the sky" is even truer today than it was then.  Now, even city-slickers can see the error in the sky.

The problem is that the church also mandated celebrating Pascha on the same dates. In practice, as we saw with Finland, the other churches aren't willing to break communion even over this. It seems they only care about the issue when groups in their own jurisdictions disagree with the reforms and refuse to follow along.

Also, I doubt city-slickers would have a clue if they didn't read about it on the internet. Who actually has that kind of astronomical knowledge outside of a few hobbyists and professionals?
« Last Edit: June 06, 2015, 01:12:05 PM by Jonathan Gress »

Offline Mockingbird

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2845 on: June 06, 2015, 01:55:09 PM »
Honest question : would to be easier to have all churches change to the new calendar , or force all back to the old?

In other words, which of the above would result in the least schism.

Why not simply allow the church in each place to pick a paschalion--Julian, Gregorian, or Milankovic--without breaking communion with the others?  You already do this in the case of Finland.  Eventually everyone would go on the Gregorian or Milankovic paschalion because the Julian paschalion is so obviously defective.  Roger Bacon's complaint in the 13th century that "any rustic can see the error in the sky" is even truer today than it was then.  Now, even city-slickers can see the error in the sky.

The problem is that the church also mandated celebrating Pascha on the same dates.
Which we will eventually get back to, if we allow ourselves a transition such as I proposed above.

Also, I doubt city-slickers would have a clue if they didn't read about it on the internet. Who actually has that kind of astronomical knowledge outside of a few hobbyists and professionals?

The only astronomical knowledge that one needs in order to see that the Julian paschalion is wrong is the knowledge that a full moon does not look like this:

Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.--Byrhtferth of Ramsey

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2846 on: June 06, 2015, 02:27:07 PM »
That assumes you can see the moon through the smog. :D

But yeah, I agree if the whole switched at once to a more correct calendar, that would be better.

Offline Father H

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2847 on: June 08, 2015, 12:21:27 AM »
Honest question : would to be easier to have all churches change to the new calendar , or force all back to the old?

In other words, which of the above would result in the least schism.

Why not simply allow the church in each place to pick a paschalion--Julian, Gregorian, or Milankovic--without breaking communion with the others?  You already do this in the case of Finland.  Eventually everyone would go on the Gregorian or Milankovic paschalion because the Julian paschalion is so obviously defective.  Roger Bacon's complaint in the 13th century that "any rustic can see the error in the sky" is even truer today than it was then.  Now, even city-slickers can see the error in the sky.

The problem is that the church also mandated celebrating Pascha on the same dates.
Which we will eventually get back to, if we allow ourselves a transition such as I proposed above.

Also, I doubt city-slickers would have a clue if they didn't read about it on the internet. Who actually has that kind of astronomical knowledge outside of a few hobbyists and professionals?

The only astronomical knowledge that one needs in order to see that the Julian paschalion is wrong is the knowledge that a full moon does not look like this:



14 Aviv/Nisan was never a full moon by our modern definition.  This is because the new moon (1 Aviv/Nisan) was not, in ancient times, the dark moon, but rather what we call the "young crescent."   The new moon (new month) was in ancient times defined by the first appearance of the moon AFTER it was dark, and began to appear once again. 

Offline Mockingbird

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2848 on: June 08, 2015, 10:29:00 PM »
14 Aviv/Nisan was never a full moon by our modern definition.  This is because the new moon (1 Aviv/Nisan) was not, in ancient times, the dark moon, but rather what we call the "young crescent."   The new moon (new month) was in ancient times defined by the first appearance of the moon AFTER it was dark, and began to appear once again.
An average synodic lunar month is 29.530589 days.  Half of this is 14.7652945 days.  If the first day of the lunar month begins nominally 24 hours after mean conjunction, then mean opposition will occur on the 14th day of the lunar month, around noon.

Here are the oppositions for 2013-2017 (UT), together with my computation of the 14th day of the month in the Gregorian lunar calendar:

Code: [Select]
Opposition (UT) 14th of Gregorian lunar month Day of Gregorian lunar month
on which opposition occurs
Jan 27 2013 Jan 27 14
Feb 25 Feb 25 14
Mar 27 Mar 27 14
Apr 25 Apr 25 14
May 25 May 25 14
Jun 23 Jun 23 14
Jul 22 Jul 23 13
Aug 21 Aug 21 14
Sep 19 Sep 20 13
Oct 18 Oct 19 13
Nov 17 Nov 18 13
Dec 17 Dec 17 14
Jan 16 2014 Jan 15 15
Feb 14 Feb 14 14
Mar 16 Mar 15 15
Apr 15 Apr 14 15
May 14 May 13 15
Jun 13 Jun 12 15
Jul 12 Jul 11 15
Aug 10 Aug 10 14
Sep  9 Sep  8 15
Oct  8 Oct  8 14
Nov  6 Nov  6 14
Dec  6 Dec  6 14
Jan  5 2015 Jan  4 15
Feb  3 Feb  3 14
Mar  5 Mar  4 15
Apr  4 Apr  3 15
Jun  2 Jun  1 15
Jul  2 Jun 30 16
Jul 31 Jul 30 15
Aug 29 Aug 28 15
Sep 28 Sep 28 14
Oct 27 Oct 26 15
Nov 25 Nov 25 14
Dec 25 Dec 25 14
Jan 24 2016 Jan 23 15
Feb 22 Feb 21 15
Mar 23 Mar 23 14
Apr 22 Apr 21 15
May 21 May 21 14
Jun 20 Jun 19 15
Jul 19 Jul 19 14
Aug 18 Aug 17 15
Sep 16 Sep 16 14
Oct 16 Oct 15 15
Nov 14 Nov 14 14
Dec 14 Dec 13 14
Jan 12 2017 Jan 12 14
Feb 11 Feb 11 14
Mar 12 Mar 12 14
Apr 11 Apr 11 14
May 10 May 10 14
Jun  9 Jun  9 14
Jul  9 Jul  8 15
Aug  7 Aug  7 14
Sep  6 Sep  5 15
Oct  5 Oct  5 14
Nov  4 Nov  3 15
Dec  3 Dec  3 14
As you see, the true opposition wobbles about the 14th day of the Gregorian lunar month, falling sometimes as early as the 13th, sometimes as late as the 16th.  The occasions when it falls on the 13th or 14th number 36 of 60, or a majority. This is about as good a correlation between the full moon and the 14th day of the calendar lunar month as can be expected from a lunar calendar based on the mean lunation and constrained to be cyclic in the civil calendar.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2015, 10:29:55 PM by Mockingbird »
Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.--Byrhtferth of Ramsey

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2849 on: June 08, 2015, 10:35:53 PM »
Good God...
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

New thread topic.  Rate the sexual attractiveness of members of OC.net on a scale of 1-10.

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2850 on: June 08, 2015, 10:41:39 PM »
^ what he said.
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Offline Mockingbird

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2851 on: July 04, 2015, 01:33:37 PM »
14 Aviv/Nisan was never a full moon by our modern definition.  This is because the new moon (1 Aviv/Nisan) was not, in ancient times, the dark moon, but rather what we call the "young crescent."   The new moon (new month) was in ancient times defined by the first appearance of the moon AFTER it was dark, and began to appear once again.
In my last post I demonstrated how it was rational to associate the full moon with the 14th day of the lunar month in the Gregorian lunar calendar.  Here I show that this association of the full moon with the 14th day of the month is consistent with our knowledge of 1st-century A.D. Judean practice.

Philo of Alexandria writes (died c. A.D. 50) in his Life of Moses 2.222,224 that

Quote from: Philo of Alexandria
Moses dates the first month of the year's revolution at the beginning of the spring equinox…In this month, about the fourteenth day, when the disc of the moon is becoming full, is held the commemoration of the crossing, a public festival called in Hebrew Pascha, on which the victims are not brought to the altar by the laity and sacrificed by the priests, but, as commanded by the law, the whole nation acts a priest, each individual bringing what he offers on his own behalf and dealing with it with his own hands.

The same author writes in Special Laws 2.155 that

Quote from: Philo of Alexandria
The feast [of Unleavened Bread] begins at the middle of the month, on the fifteenth day, when the moon is full, a day purposely chosen because then there is no darkness, but everything is continuously lighted up as the sun chines from morning to evening and the moon from evening to morning

So if the moon is "becoming full" on the 14th day, and the 15th day begins with the rising of a full moon at sunset, then arguably the moment of opposition must have occurred sometime on the 14th day, nearer to the end of the day than to the beginning.
Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.--Byrhtferth of Ramsey

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2852 on: July 04, 2015, 01:43:57 PM »
« Last Edit: July 04, 2015, 01:45:28 PM by Iconodule »

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2853 on: July 06, 2015, 01:27:39 AM »

And how does that contribute to discussion of the subject of the calendar?
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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2854 on: July 06, 2015, 07:04:00 AM »

And how does that contribute to discussion of the subject of the calendar?


Offline Father H

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2855 on: July 06, 2015, 11:12:51 AM »
14 Aviv/Nisan was never a full moon by our modern definition.  This is because the new moon (1 Aviv/Nisan) was not, in ancient times, the dark moon, but rather what we call the "young crescent."   The new moon (new month) was in ancient times defined by the first appearance of the moon AFTER it was dark, and began to appear once again.
An average synodic lunar month is 29.530589 days.  Half of this is 14.7652945 days.  If the first day of the lunar month begins nominally 24 hours after mean conjunction, then mean opposition will occur on the 14th day of the lunar month, around noon.

Here are the oppositions for 2013-2017 (UT), together with my computation of the 14th day of the month in the Gregorian lunar calendar:

Code: [Select]
Opposition (UT) 14th of Gregorian lunar month Day of Gregorian lunar month
on which opposition occurs
Jan 27 2013 Jan 27 14
Feb 25 Feb 25 14
Mar 27 Mar 27 14
Apr 25 Apr 25 14
May 25 May 25 14
Jun 23 Jun 23 14
Jul 22 Jul 23 13
Aug 21 Aug 21 14
Sep 19 Sep 20 13
Oct 18 Oct 19 13
Nov 17 Nov 18 13
Dec 17 Dec 17 14
Jan 16 2014 Jan 15 15
Feb 14 Feb 14 14
Mar 16 Mar 15 15
Apr 15 Apr 14 15
May 14 May 13 15
Jun 13 Jun 12 15
Jul 12 Jul 11 15
Aug 10 Aug 10 14
Sep  9 Sep  8 15
Oct  8 Oct  8 14
Nov  6 Nov  6 14
Dec  6 Dec  6 14
Jan  5 2015 Jan  4 15
Feb  3 Feb  3 14
Mar  5 Mar  4 15
Apr  4 Apr  3 15
Jun  2 Jun  1 15
Jul  2 Jun 30 16
Jul 31 Jul 30 15
Aug 29 Aug 28 15
Sep 28 Sep 28 14
Oct 27 Oct 26 15
Nov 25 Nov 25 14
Dec 25 Dec 25 14
Jan 24 2016 Jan 23 15
Feb 22 Feb 21 15
Mar 23 Mar 23 14
Apr 22 Apr 21 15
May 21 May 21 14
Jun 20 Jun 19 15
Jul 19 Jul 19 14
Aug 18 Aug 17 15
Sep 16 Sep 16 14
Oct 16 Oct 15 15
Nov 14 Nov 14 14
Dec 14 Dec 13 14
Jan 12 2017 Jan 12 14
Feb 11 Feb 11 14
Mar 12 Mar 12 14
Apr 11 Apr 11 14
May 10 May 10 14
Jun  9 Jun  9 14
Jul  9 Jul  8 15
Aug  7 Aug  7 14
Sep  6 Sep  5 15
Oct  5 Oct  5 14
Nov  4 Nov  3 15
Dec  3 Dec  3 14
As you see, the true opposition wobbles about the 14th day of the Gregorian lunar month, falling sometimes as early as the 13th, sometimes as late as the 16th.  The occasions when it falls on the 13th or 14th number 36 of 60, or a majority. This is about as good a correlation between the full moon and the 14th day of the calendar lunar month as can be expected from a lunar calendar based on the mean lunation and constrained to be cyclic in the civil calendar.

You missed the point.  The point is that today we consider the "dark moon" as the New Moon.  It was not so with the ancient Hebrews, for whom the New Moon was what we today call a "young crescent" (i.e. the New Moon was the day in which was moon began to appear again after having been completely darkened).  So showing the Gregorian lunar month means nothing since the first day is by definition at least one day earlier than it is in the Hebrew lunar month. 

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2856 on: July 06, 2015, 02:24:11 PM »

And how does that contribute to discussion of the subject of the calendar?


Does anyone give a damn that you don't give a damn?
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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2857 on: July 06, 2015, 03:45:47 PM »

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2858 on: July 06, 2015, 08:19:18 PM »

And how does that contribute to discussion of the subject of the calendar?


Does anyone give a damn that you don't give a damn?


Apparently you
And you apparently give a damn about me giving a damn that Iconodule gives enough of a damn to say he doesn't give a damn. ;) :laugh:
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Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2859 on: July 06, 2015, 08:22:14 PM »
untrue.


i just felt the need to stop the vicious cycle

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2860 on: July 06, 2015, 08:45:55 PM »
untrue.


i just felt the need to stop the vicious cycle
Well, ma'am, you just walked right into it and became a part of it. ;)
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Offline genesisone

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2861 on: July 06, 2015, 08:57:47 PM »
untrue.


i just felt the need to stop the vicious cycle
Well, ma'am, you just walked right into it and became a part of it. ;)
And the wheels on the bus go round and round....

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2862 on: July 06, 2015, 09:10:54 PM »
untrue.


i just felt the need to stop the vicious cycle
Well, ma'am, you just walked right into it and became a part of it. ;)
And the wheels on the bus go round and round....
Now that we've all had our bit of fun, can we all give enough of a damn to get this thread back on topic? :police:
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Offline Father H

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2863 on: July 06, 2015, 10:22:56 PM »
untrue.


i just felt the need to stop the vicious cycle
Well, ma'am, you just walked right into it and became a part of it. ;)
And the wheels on the bus go round and round....

Oh, I did not look at video but you put that song into my head.  For shame, for shame...

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2864 on: July 06, 2015, 11:36:30 PM »

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2865 on: July 07, 2015, 02:34:31 AM »
At least someone is admitting that the calendar is crucial




http://www.rawstory.com/2015/07/duck-dynasty-star-si-robertson-atheists-dont-exist-because-they-use-calendars/
So how does that address the debate within Orthodox circles over whether to use the Old Calendar or the New?
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2866 on: July 08, 2015, 05:29:21 PM »
At least someone is admitting that the calendar is crucial




http://www.rawstory.com/2015/07/duck-dynasty-star-si-robertson-atheists-dont-exist-because-they-use-calendars/
So how does that address the debate within Orthodox circles over whether to use the Old Calendar or the New?

Sarcasm is an honorable way to make a point.

Offline Mockingbird

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2867 on: July 10, 2015, 08:03:17 PM »
14 Aviv/Nisan was never a full moon by our modern definition.  This is because the new moon (1 Aviv/Nisan) was not, in ancient times, the dark moon, but rather what we call the "young crescent."   The new moon (new month) was in ancient times defined by the first appearance of the moon AFTER it was dark, and began to appear once again.
An average synodic lunar month is 29.530589 days.  Half of this is 14.7652945 days.  If the first day of the lunar month begins nominally 24 hours after mean conjunction, then mean opposition will occur on the 14th day of the lunar month, around noon.

You missed the point.  The point is that today we consider the "dark moon" as the New Moon.  It was not so with the ancient Hebrews, for whom the New Moon was what we today call a "young crescent" (i.e. the New Moon was the day in which was moon began to appear again after having been completely darkened).  So showing the Gregorian lunar month means nothing since the first day is by definition at least one day earlier than it is in the Hebrew lunar month.
No, it isn't.  A lunar calendar whose full moon comes on the 14th/15th day--such as the Gregorian lunar calendar--is one that begins near the appearance of the new waxing crescent.  A lunar month that begins with the conjunction--such as the Chinese lunar calendar--tends to have its full moon on the 15th/16th day.

But if you still don't believe me, it is well known that Clavius built into the Gregorian lunar tables an average delay of around a day between the mean conjunction (the "mean new moon of the astronomers" as he called it) and the beginning of the Gregorian lunar month.  If one compares the times of the true conjunctions to the times of the start of the Gregorian lunar month--nominally 6PM on the day before the lunar prime's tablular date--one finds that the lunar prime is almost always after the true conjunction, sometimes by 30 hours or even more.  In the next few years, the only year in which the Gregorian paschal lunar month will begin before the true conjunction is the year 2019.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2015, 08:04:53 PM by Mockingbird »
Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.--Byrhtferth of Ramsey

Offline Father H

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2868 on: July 15, 2015, 03:00:48 AM »
14 Aviv/Nisan was never a full moon by our modern definition.  This is because the new moon (1 Aviv/Nisan) was not, in ancient times, the dark moon, but rather what we call the "young crescent."   The new moon (new month) was in ancient times defined by the first appearance of the moon AFTER it was dark, and began to appear once again.
An average synodic lunar month is 29.530589 days.  Half of this is 14.7652945 days.  If the first day of the lunar month begins nominally 24 hours after mean conjunction, then mean opposition will occur on the 14th day of the lunar month, around noon.

You missed the point.  The point is that today we consider the "dark moon" as the New Moon.  It was not so with the ancient Hebrews, for whom the New Moon was what we today call a "young crescent" (i.e. the New Moon was the day in which was moon began to appear again after having been completely darkened).  So showing the Gregorian lunar month means nothing since the first day is by definition at least one day earlier than it is in the Hebrew lunar month.
No, it isn't.  A lunar calendar whose full moon comes on the 14th/15th day--such as the Gregorian lunar calendar--is one that begins near the appearance of the new waxing crescent.  A lunar month that begins with the conjunction--such as the Chinese lunar calendar--tends to have its full moon on the 15th/16th day.

But if you still don't believe me, it is well known that Clavius built into the Gregorian lunar tables an average delay of around a day between the mean conjunction (the "mean new moon of the astronomers" as he called it) and the beginning of the Gregorian lunar month.  If one compares the times of the true conjunctions to the times of the start of the Gregorian lunar month--nominally 6PM on the day before the lunar prime's tablular date--one finds that the lunar prime is almost always after the true conjunction, sometimes by 30 hours or even more.  In the next few years, the only year in which the Gregorian paschal lunar month will begin before the true conjunction is the year 2019.

"But if you still don't believe me..."  lol.  Yes, this is all about YOU and YOUR input.   :'(    As you know, for the Hebrews, the rule was better late than early.  For Christians all the more since fasting is involved.  The ancient Hebrews would delay by one month where doubt was involved.  Orthodox NEVER have it early by Hebrew standards.  Your admission of 2019 just proves the point. 

Offline Mockingbird

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2869 on: July 18, 2015, 03:41:59 PM »
As you know, for the Hebrews, the rule was better late than early.  The ancient Hebrews would delay by one month where doubt was involved.
   Are you referring to the Mishnaic calendar?  The Tosefta says nothing about "doubt" that I can find though it says that the year may be intercalated for practical reasons.  Maybe this is what you mean by "doubt"? 

In any case, there is no evidence, other than the wishful thinking of the Mishnah itself, to suppose that the scheme of the Mishnah/Tosefta was used in Herodian times or earlier.  It is known with certainty that the Jews of Elephantine, in Egypt, were using a local adaptation of the Babylonian calendar in the Persian period.  A form of the Babylonian calendar seems to be presupposed by the First Book of Maccabees.  How do you know that the temple priests of all postexilic periods never once used the Babylonian calendar, which by Seleucid times was intercalated according to a fixed cycle, rather than on any empirical basis?  All "doubts" had been resolved by the fixed intercalation scheme, as they were in the much later mathematical Rabbinic calendar. 

Orthodox NEVER have it early by Hebrew standards.  Your admission of 2019 just proves the point.
You have not previously made any statements about the Julian paschalion.  If you want to discuss it, please clarify your position.  What is "it"?  What "point" does the Gregorian lunar calendar for 2019 prove?

Your previous statement was:

14 Aviv/Nisan was never a full moon by our modern definition.  This is because the new moon (1 Aviv/Nisan) was not, in ancient times, the dark moon, but rather what we call the "young crescent."   
Note the word "never".  This makes your statement an extreme statement.  Your are stating that no lunar calendar which had a month called "Nisan" ever had the true full moon on the 14th of Nisan, at any longitude from Susa in Persia to Cape Clear, Ireland, throughout the entire history of such calendars up to the end of "ancient" times.  You should present evidence, not just assertions, for this extreme claim.

Even if your words are not interpreted so strictly, they still don't hold up.  You state that the 14th of Nisan was "never" in ancient times a full moon, because in those days the lunar month began with the new crescent.  This statement is (as I have shown) internally inconsistent.  It is precisely when a lunar month begins near the new waxing crescent that the full moon comes near the 14th day.  It is when the day of the conjunction is counted as the first day of the lunar month that the full moon will tend to come later than the 14th day. 

Was this what you were actually trying to say, even though you ended up saying the opposite?  You seemed to base your assertions on the linguistic fact that the phrase "new moon" nowadays often means "conjunction".  This is true, but this fact has no implications for the mathematics of any lunar calendar, past or present.  Each calendar's arithmetic must be examined to determine how its "new moon" relates to the conjunction, regardless of what "new moon" may mean in other contexts.
Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.--Byrhtferth of Ramsey

Offline Mockingbird

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2870 on: August 08, 2015, 02:02:24 PM »
According to Nicaea I, Pascha must follow the Jewish Passover, which was celebrated on the 14 of Nissan, which was the day of the first full moon following the Spring Equinox. Since the adoption of the Gregorian Calendar, the Western Easter can fall on or before the Jewish Passover which is a violation of the decision of the First Ecumenical Council.
These two statements contradict each other.  If the "Jewish Passover" that Easter must "follow" is "the first full moon following the Spring Equinox", than the Gregorian calendar never sets Easter before the "Jewish Passover" defined in this way.  Gregorian Easter is, to a good approximation, the first Sunday after the first full moon after the Spring equinox.  (The only time in the near future when this will not be the case will be in 2019, when there is an astronomical full moon shortly after the equinox that the Gregorian approximation misses.)  But if the "Jewish Passover" is something that the Gregorian Easter can fall "before", then it must be something other than the Spring full moon, such as the 15th of Nisan in the Rabbinic calendar, which in about 3 years of every 19 comes at the time of the second full moon after the equinox.  So which is it?  Is it the first full moon of Spring, or the Rabbinic Matzoth, that is the "Passover" that Easter must be "after"?

If the Jews were to schedule their Passover after the second full moon of spring, would we be required to follow them in their error?

These questions have still not been answered.
Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.--Byrhtferth of Ramsey