Author Topic: Old vs. New Calendar?  (Read 424672 times)

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Offline ilyazhito

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2880 on: November 23, 2015, 11:49:10 AM »
That's true, and it seems like the New Calendar and the Gregorian calendar reinvented the wheel. It is unnecessary, IMHO, but I don't know what to do now.Russia, Serbia, Jerusalem, Mount Athos, Poland, and Georgia at least use the Old Calendar, and a number of churches that are officially new calendar, such as Romania, Bulgaria, and Greece have uncanonical Old Calendar counterparts who might be regularized if all switch back to the Old Calendar. Thus, this would be ideal, but I don't know if there is enough impetus tor practically achieve this.

Offline Dominika

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2881 on: November 23, 2015, 01:14:35 PM »
That's true, and it seems like the New Calendar and the Gregorian calendar reinvented the wheel. It is unnecessary, IMHO, but I don't know what to do now.Russia, Serbia, Jerusalem, Mount Athos, Poland, and Georgia at least use the Old Calendar, and a number of churches that are officially new calendar, such as Romania, Bulgaria, and Greece have uncanonical Old Calendar counterparts who might be regularized if all switch back to the Old Calendar. Thus, this would be ideal, but I don't know if there is enough impetus tor practically achieve this.

There are some Polish parishes (including one cathedra seat) still using the new calendar; and some of tchem celebrate Nativity (and sometimes also Epiphany) according to the both calendar or just new one (despite celebrating all the rest according to the old calendar) - this strange practice appeared after the official switch to the old calendar 1 year ago.

The problem is that even in Polish the statement was unclear, and then translated into Russian and English probably leaded to misunderstanding the international opinion. Not talking about many abnormalities that took place after this change, and the way it was introduced
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Offline mike

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2882 on: December 08, 2015, 05:34:40 AM »
Almost entire Łodź-Poznań diocese is new calendar, half of Lublin-Chełm diocese is NC as well, 1/4 of Białystok-Gdańsk diocese is NC as welll.
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Offline Pravoslavac

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2883 on: December 08, 2015, 07:47:56 AM »
New calendar created schism in the Church, that is it's fruit.
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Offline Mockingbird

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2884 on: December 26, 2015, 08:14:26 PM »
That's true, and it seems like the New Calendar and the Gregorian calendar reinvented the wheel.
The Gregorian calendar fixed a broken wheel.
Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.--Byrhtferth of Ramsey

Offline ilyazhito

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2885 on: January 01, 2016, 10:04:27 AM »
How exactly was that wheel broken? I know that the difference between Julian/Gregorian calendars is 13 days, but the Julian calendar is the one still used for astronomical calculations. RE the Old Calendar and Poland, I read the act of the Synod of Bishops of Poland that decreed that the Old Calendar would begin after the Sunday of All Saints, 2014. Thank you for Mike and Dominika for giving the info on the ground.

Offline Dominika

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2886 on: January 01, 2016, 05:34:05 PM »
RE the Old Calendar and Poland, I read the act of the Synod of Bishops of Poland that decreed that the Old Calendar would begin after the Sunday of All Saints, 2014. Thank you for Mike and Dominika for giving the info on the ground.

As I said, even the statement written orignally in Polish was quite strange, so no talking about its translations. And, very often, behind a Church statement there is an important background, not presented in public
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2887 on: January 02, 2016, 10:28:11 AM »
How exactly was that wheel broken? I know that the difference between Julian/Gregorian calendars is 13 days, but the Julian calendar is the one still used for astronomical calculations.
Don't conflate the Julian Day Count used for astronomical calculations with the Julian Calendar. They're two totally different entities. In fact, the Julian Day Count and the Julian Calendar are even named after different persons.
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Offline mike

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2888 on: January 02, 2016, 03:38:41 PM »
RE the Old Calendar and Poland, I read the act of the Synod of Bishops of Poland that decreed that the Old Calendar would begin after the Sunday of All Saints, 2014. Thank you for Mike and Dominika for giving the info on the ground.

As I said, even the statement written orignally in Polish was quite strange, so no talking about its translations. And, very often, behind a Church statement there is an important background, not presented in public

It ended up that decision changed the situation in like 5 parishes only, out of 230.
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Offline Dominika

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2889 on: January 02, 2016, 05:43:42 PM »
RE the Old Calendar and Poland, I read the act of the Synod of Bishops of Poland that decreed that the Old Calendar would begin after the Sunday of All Saints, 2014. Thank you for Mike and Dominika for giving the info on the ground.

As I said, even the statement written orignally in Polish was quite strange, so no talking about its translations. And, very often, behind a Church statement there is an important background, not presented in public

It ended up that decision changed the situation in like 5 parishes only, out of 230.

Yeah, I think 4 exactly (metropolitan cathedra in Warsaw, Wołomin, Bydgoszcz and unfortunately mine in Warsaw too; I don't count the new parish in Warsaw's Ursynów as it didn't exist when the statement was announced).
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Offline Mockingbird

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2890 on: January 03, 2016, 06:05:56 PM »
How exactly was that wheel broken? I know that the difference between Julian/Gregorian calendars is 13 days, but the Julian calendar is the one still used for astronomical calculations.


I have done astronomical computations.  For computations in molecular astrophysics I needed no calendar at all.  But yes, there are some long-distance calendrical calculations in which it is convenient to use the Julian year.  An alternative would be to use the 365-day old-Egyptian year as Claudius Ptolemy did.  This has nothing to do with the question of which calendar better approximates the motions of the luminaries.
Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.--Byrhtferth of Ramsey

Offline Father H

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2891 on: January 11, 2016, 11:41:59 PM »
Hey Mockingbird, how about 2016 where RC/Protestant Easter falls nearly a month before Passover?  Clearly for most of Church history the concern has been that it falls AFTER the first day of Passover, since Christ rose AFTER 14 Nisan (eve of Passover).  In fact, in the correspondences regarding disputes on the matter, it was to be delayed by a week when in doubt. 

Offline Mockingbird

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2892 on: January 14, 2016, 10:00:32 PM »
Passover 2016 in the Gregorian calendar is on March 23, 2016.  This date follows the definition of the fathers, who held that Passover was the first full moon after the Spring equinox.

By this definition, the Rabbinic Jewish (April 22, 2016) and Julian (April 26, 2016) computations are simply wrong.  The Jewish computation at least is near a full moon, but from the Gregorian calendar's point of view it is the wrong full moon.  The Julian computation is not even very close to the full moon.
Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.--Byrhtferth of Ramsey

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2893 on: January 15, 2016, 02:58:20 PM »
Hey Mockingbird, how about 2016 where RC/Protestant Easter falls nearly a month before Passover?  Clearly for most of Church history the concern has been that it falls AFTER the first day of Passover, since Christ rose AFTER 14 Nisan (eve of Passover).  In fact, in the correspondences regarding disputes on the matter, it was to be delayed by a week when in doubt.
If you read back far enough on this thread, I think you'll find a post I submitted on how the understanding that we must celebrate Pascha only after the Jews celebrate their Passover is a misunderstanding introduced by one of our canonists. The key is that our date for Pascha shall be calculated with no regard whatsoever for when the Jews celebrate Passover. To mandate that the Jewish Passover must always come before our Pascha is to once again tie our Pascha to the Jewish Passover.
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Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2894 on: January 15, 2016, 03:06:28 PM »
I thought the full (fool) moon was on the 25th.

Based on threads lately we are having another one

Maybe it's an Old Calendar New Moon...    ;)

Come to think of it, the whole calendar issue is the Earth's fault for not adhering strictly to a strict 1461:4 spin-orbit resonance like a good pious planet should!

Maybe the whole thing could be resolved by using mass drivers to blast the Earth back into a more appropriate orbit. Although that might have unintended consequences....
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Offline Mockingbird

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2895 on: January 23, 2016, 04:43:38 PM »
In fact, in the correspondences regarding disputes on the matter, it was to be delayed by a week when in doubt.
Are you referring to the occasion in 346 when Athanasius proclaimed Easter for March 30 when his own tables put it on March 23?  In this case, Athanasius accepted the later date in order to reach agreement with his brother bishops.  But in 333 and apparently in 349, Athanasius accepted an earlier date to reach agreement. 

In any case, the Alexandrian lunar tables at that time were reasonably accurate.  What people did in the days of good tables is no precedent for using bad tables.
Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.--Byrhtferth of Ramsey

Offline ilyazhito

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2896 on: January 27, 2016, 10:24:45 PM »
So is that where the stipulation that Pascha must come after Pesach (Jewish Passover) came from?

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2897 on: January 27, 2016, 11:05:55 PM »
So is that where the stipulation that Pascha must come after Pesach (Jewish Passover) came from?
More so a misunderstanding that dates back to Zonaras the canonist.
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Offline JoeS2

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2898 on: January 27, 2016, 11:50:53 PM »
So is that where the stipulation that Pascha must come after Pesach (Jewish Passover) came from?

It would just seem logical.....I mean, how could we celebrate The Risen Christ Before the Passover even happened.? 
Im surprised that the Western Churches havent caught on by now.

Offline Mockingbird

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2899 on: January 28, 2016, 09:12:10 PM »
Hey Mockingbird, how about 2016 where RC/Protestant Easter falls nearly a month before Passover?  Clearly for most of Church history the concern has been that it falls AFTER the first day of Passover, since Christ rose AFTER 14 Nisan (eve of Passover).  In fact, in the correspondences regarding disputes on the matter, it was to be delayed by a week when in doubt.
If you read back far enough on this thread, I think you'll find a post I submitted on how the understanding that we must celebrate Pascha only after the Jews celebrate their Passover is a misunderstanding introduced by one of our canonists. The key is that our date for Pascha shall be calculated with no regard whatsoever for when the Jews celebrate Passover. To mandate that the Jewish Passover must always come before our Pascha is to once again tie our Pascha to the Jewish Passover.

One of PtA's posts in the subject is found at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,2233.msg1068235.html#msg1068235

Zonaras's interpretation of Apostolic canon #7, which shows on its face how clueless Zonaras was about the correct interpretation of this canon, can be found at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,2233.msg1071066.html#msg1071066
Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.--Byrhtferth of Ramsey

Offline Mockingbird

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2900 on: January 28, 2016, 09:16:35 PM »
So is that where the stipulation that Pascha must come after Pesach (Jewish Passover) came from?

It would just seem logical.....I mean, how could we celebrate The Risen Christ Before the Passover even happened.? 
Im surprised that the Western Churches havent caught on by now.
Our Jewish neighbors decide when Passover is for themselves.  Christians decide when Passover is for Christians.  The one need have nothing to do with the other, as the facts show:

This year,

the Gregorian Passover is Wednesday, March 23 2016;
the Samaritan Passover is Wednesday, April 20, 2016;
the Rabbinic Passover is Friday, April 22, 2016;
the Julian Passover is Tuesday, April 26, 2016.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2016, 09:17:09 PM by Mockingbird »
Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.--Byrhtferth of Ramsey