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Myrrh23
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« on: March 21, 2008, 06:20:13 PM »

Hey Guys! Grin


I've been trying to find all the important dates that correspond to Lent, and it's proving to be very difficult. Any websites you can recommend that break all this stuff down into a timetable or something? My head is spinning from all the Great this and Great that, and all the new dates and new celebrations... Huh
Thank you so so much!
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« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2008, 07:03:33 PM »

I have no idea what you mean by "new dates" and "new celebrations," unless you're 2200 years old.

Important dates for Lent (2008):

March 10--Clean Monday, beginning of Lent
March 10-13--Great Canon of St. Andrew, a four-day ode of repentance
March 16--Sunday of Orthodoxy, a celebration of the restoration of icons
March 23--St. Gregory Palamas, one of the early saints
March 25--Anunciation (New Calendar), Archangel Gabriel's anouncement to the Theotokos that she would bear Christ
March 30--Ven. Precious Cross, the cross on which Christ was crucified
April 6--St. John Climacus, wrote about the "Ladder of Divine Ascent"
April 10--Great Canon of St. Andrew, a one-day ode of repentance
April 13--St. Mary of Egypt, a hermit in the desert of Sinai
April 20--Palm Sunday, Christ's entrance into Jerusalem
April 21-26--Holy Week, the last week before Christ's resurrection
April 25--Holy Friday, the day of Christ's crucifixion
April 27--Pascha (Easter), the day of Christ's resurrection

Hope that helps.
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« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2008, 07:16:16 PM »

Ytter, what I meant by "new dates" and "new celebrations" relates to me being Roman Catholic, and not a very well-taught one, either.  Roll Eyes Wink
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« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2008, 07:25:14 PM »

And what I meant is that the Catholics are the ones with new dates and new celebrations. Ours haven't changed in a couple of millenia.
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« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2008, 07:53:53 PM »

So you guys are troopers...good for you. But for some of us coming from Roman Catholicism, all these dates are new. There's either a ton of misinformation in many of our parishes or OUR elders are often too lazy to teach the young'uns what they need to know. So, for me..and probably a lot of others on this Board, the dates of the Eastern Orthodox Lent are a new plate of information. So, please knock off the sarcasm... Smiley
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« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2008, 08:39:26 PM »

You want to talk about novelty? I was a Pentecostal. We didn't even have Lent. So I perfectly understand the novelty of Orthodoxy. But if you want to be Orthodox, you're going to have to distance yourself from yourself. You can't see things from your own perspective. It's not about how Orthodoxy fits into your paradigm; it's about how you fit into Orthodoxy. You need to realize that pre-conceived notions you may have about our relationship to God, to other people, and to the angels might very well have to change. I hope you become more open to that sort of paradigm shift. Until then, just relax. Go to church, learn to sing the songs, and don't worry about the rest of it. Without the right frame of mind, Orthodoxy is useless. I have a feeling it's that reason, rather than the laziness of others, that you might not be learning what you want to know.
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« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2008, 09:27:55 PM »

It may be helpful to have the whole Paschal-cycle calendar (I'm going to include the Greek Tradition of the Akathist):

70 Days before Pascha (a Sunday): Sunday of the Parable of the Publican and the Pharisee

63 Days before Pascha (a Sunday): Sunday of the Parable of the Prodigal Son

57 Days before Pascha (a Saturday): Saturday of the Souls (although, technically, most Saturdays are for the Dead anyway)

56 Days before Pascha (Sunday): Judgment Sunday, a.k.a. Meatfare Sunday - feast recalling the Last Judgment; last day to eat meat before Pascha

50 Days before Pascha (Sat): Commemoration of the memory all the Monastics (although this is commonly also called a "Saturday of the Souls")

49 Days before Pascha (Sun): Forgiveness Sunday, a.k.a. Cheesefare Sunday - feast recalling God's infinite mercy; last day to eat dairy products before Pascha.

48 Days before Pascha (Mon): "Clean Monday," the first day of the 40-day Lenten period.  Usually marked with extra church services, a change in colors in the Church, and a radical change in weekday services.  No Divine Liturgy on a weekday during Lent, only Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts of St. Gregory the Dialogist.

In usual parish practice, on Monday evenings Great Compline is celebrated.  This service is only done during Lent on weekday evenings in lieu of Vespers (which is now done in the mornings on Mon-Wed-Fri if done at all).

During the first week, there are additional Gospel readings to begin Lent that are done at all the Great Compline Services.  Also, portions of the Great Canon of St. Andrew of Crete are done (as mentioned above by Mr. Y).

46 Days before Pascha (Wed): Usually the first Presanctified Liturgy of the Season; these Liturgies are performed with regularity on Wed and Fri and on any major Saint day that falls during the week.

44 Days before Pascha (Fri): in lieu of Great Compline (which isn't done on Fri nights) there is the Small Compline with the Akathist Hymn (called Salutations), a service done the first 5 Fridays of Lent.  It is a celebration of the Feast of the Annunciation, which always falls during Lent.

43 Days before Pascha (Sat): Feast of St. Theodore and the Miracle of the Kolyva (commonly also called a "Saturday of Souls")

42 Days before Pascha (Sun): Sunday of the Triumph of Orthodoxy (the Restoration of the Icons)

35 Days before Pascha (Sun): Sunday of St. Gregory Palamas

28 Days before Pascha (Sun): Sunday of the Veneration of the Holy Cross

21 Days before Pascha (Sun): Sunday of St. John the author of the Ladder of Divine Ascent

17 Days before Pascha (Thu): Chanting of the Full Great Canon of St. Andrew of Crete at Great Compline

16 Days before Pascha (Fri): 5th and Final Akathist Service, with the full Akathist hymn chanted.

15 Days before Pascha (Sat): Saturday of the Akathist Hymn

14 Days before Pascha (Sun): Sunday of St. Mary of Egypt

9 Days before Pascha (Fri): Last Day of Great Lent

8 Days before Pascha (Sat): The Raising of the Friend of the Lord Lazaros after 4 Days in the Tomb (A Resurrectional Saturday)

7 Days before Pascha (Sun): Palm Sunday, the Lord's Triumphal Entry into Jerusalem.

GREAT AND HOLY WEEK (All commemorations begin the evening before the day stated)

6 Days before Pascha (Mon): Beginning of Great and Holy Week; Commemoration of Joseph, and of the Withering of the Fig Tree.

5 Days before Pascha (Tues): The coming of the Bridegroom and the Parable of the 10 Virgins

4 Days before Pascha (Wed): The contrast between the Sinful Woman who annointed the Lord, and Judas who betrayed Him; the day of the betrayal.  It is customary to have the service of Holy Unction on Wed afternoon.

3 Days before Pascha (Thur): "On holy and great Thursday the godlike Fathers have arranged all things well and have handed on to us that we should celebrate in turn four events from the godlike Apostles and sacred Gospels: the sacred Washing, the mystical Supper (that is the handing on for us of the dread Mysteries), the transcendent Prayer and the Betrayal itself." (from the Anastasis.co.uk website).

2 Days before Pascha (Fri): "On holy and great Friday we remember the holy, saving and dread Sufferings of our Lord and God and Saviour, Jesus Christ: the spittings, the blows, the buffetings, the outrages, the mockings, the purple cloak, the reed, the sponge, the vinegar, the nails, the lance and above all the Cross and death, which he accepted willingly for our sake; but also the saving confession on the cross of the Good Thief, crucified with him." (same site as above)

1 Day before Pascha (Sat): "On the holy and great Sabbath we celebrate the burial of our Lord and God and Saviour, Jesus Christ and the Descent into Hell, through which our race, called back from corruption, has passed over to eternal life."

Pascha

Then, numbering Pascha as the 1st day "of Pascha":

Days 2-7 Of Pascha (Mon-Sat) - "Bright Week," which is Pascha every day.

Day 6 of Pascha (Fri) - Also the commemoration of the Life-Giving Fount

Day 8 of Pascha (Sun) - "AntiPascha" in Greek, a.k.a. Thomas Sunday, recalling the request of Thomas and the Lord's appearance to him.  The feast is celebrated all week.

Day 15 of Pascha (Sun) - Sunday of the Myrrh Bearing Women.  The feast is celebrated all week.

Day 22 of Pascha (Sun) - Sunday of the Healing of the Paralytic.  The feast is celebrated as major until Wed, commemorated in part all week.

Day 25 of Pascha (Wed) - Wednesday of Mid-Pentecost, Also the story of Jesus teaching in the temple as a youth.  This feast is celebrated for one week.

Day 29 of Pascha (Sun) - Sunday of the Samaritan Woman.  The feast is celebrated all week.

Day 36 of Pascha (Sun) - Sunday of the Healing of the Blind Man.  The feast is celebrated until Tuesday.

Day 39 of Pascha (Wed) - The Leave-taking of Pascha.  Celebration as if it were Pascha.

Day 40 of Pascha (Thu) - The Feast of the Ascension into Heaven of our Lord and God and Savior Jesus Christ.  The feast is celebrated until the following Friday.

Day 43 of Pascha (Sun) - Commemoration of the Holy Fathers.

Day 48 of Pascha (Fri) - The Leave-taking of the Ascension.  Celebration as if it were Ascension.

Day 49 of Pascha (Sat) - Saturday of Souls.

Day 50 of Pascha (Sun) - Pentecost Sunday, Commemorating the Descent of the Holy Spirit to the Apostles.  A.k.a. Trinity Sunday.

Day 51 of Pascha (Mon) - Feast in honor of the Holy Trinity (any parishes called Holy Trinity celebrate today)

Day 56 of Pascha (Sat) - Leave-taking of Pentecost.  Celebrated as if it were Pentecost.

Day 57 of Pascha (Sun) - Sunday of All Saints.  End of the Paschal Cycle.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2008, 09:28:31 PM by cleveland » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2008, 12:52:46 AM »

So you guys are troopers...good for you. But for some of us coming from Roman Catholicism, all these dates are new. There's either a ton of misinformation in many of our parishes or OUR elders are often too lazy to teach the young'uns what they need to know. So, for me..and probably a lot of others on this Board, the dates of the Eastern Orthodox Lent are a new plate of information. So, please knock off the sarcasm... Smiley

Once again, haven't we all had a discussion with you about denigrating Roman Catholics on the board?  My Grandfather is an "elder" and I ;earned great and wonderful things from him about Religion.  I know we can go toe to toe on theological differences with the Byzantine/Roman Catholics but that is discussion.  The outright rude and snide comments against Roman Catholics is intolerable.  I learned a lot from Roman Catholics/Greek/Byzantine Catholics in my life. A large percentage of my family and friends are Roman/Greek/Byzantine Catholic. 
A common mistake that I have seen is the expectation is parents who expect others to educate their children.  Ultimately you can not blame the members of a parish or elders entirely for a child's lack of education.  Education starts at home, education should be reinforced at home and most importantly it is the parents who are first and foremost responsible for the child's education.  Especially when it comes to Religion it is important for the parent(s) to take the primary role in teaching their children/child.
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« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2008, 01:13:42 AM »

March 23--St. Gregory Palamas, one of the early saints

Early saints? Wasn't he from the 14th century?
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« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2008, 01:19:43 AM »

Early saints? Wasn't he from the 14th century?
He was indeed.
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« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2008, 07:20:03 AM »

Isn't 14th early enough? Smiley

I probably confused him with another St. Gregory. There are several.
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« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2008, 01:02:31 PM »

You want to talk about novelty? I was a Pentecostal. We didn't even have Lent. So I perfectly understand the novelty of Orthodoxy. But if you want to be Orthodox, you're going to have to distance yourself from yourself. You can't see things from your own perspective. It's not about how Orthodoxy fits into your paradigm; it's about how you fit into Orthodoxy. You need to realize that pre-conceived notions you may have about our relationship to God, to other people, and to the angels might very well have to change. I hope you become more open to that sort of paradigm shift. Until then, just relax. Go to church, learn to sing the songs, and don't worry about the rest of it. Without the right frame of mind, Orthodoxy is useless. I have a feeling it's that reason, rather than the laziness of others, that you might not be learning what you want to know.

 Roman/Byzantine/Greek Catholicism and Orthodoxy pretty much are the same in respect to your post.


disclaimer: username! is well aware of the differences between Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy. There exists a commonality between them as well. 
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« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2008, 01:30:19 PM »

Isn't 14th early enough? Smiley

I probably confused him with another St. Gregory. There are several.

I have no idea what you mean by "early enough," unless you're 600 years old. Wink Cheesy
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« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2008, 02:15:45 PM »

Roman/Byzantine/Greek Catholicism and Orthodoxy pretty much are the same in respect to your post.
As far as what the religions teach about being part of the whole, yes. But there's no guarantee that all those within the religions follow exactly what they teach. Many people distance themselves from what their religion teaches; they are nominally part of the religion, but they believe as they want and live their lives as they want. They try to make God serve them rather than the other way around. Religion is a tool, a means to an end. This end may be money, fame, a sense of importance; most of the time it's happiness or making up for felt inadequacies of self or others. None of these, of course, are the goal of either Catholicism or Orthodoxy, but people can use the religions for these ends nonetheless.

I have no idea what you mean by "early enough," unless you're 600 years old. Wink Cheesy
laugh LOL! Nice.
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« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2008, 02:28:34 PM »

As far as what the religions teach about being part of the whole, yes. But there's no guarantee that all those within the religions follow exactly what they teach. Many people distance themselves from what their religion teaches; they are nominally part of the religion, but they believe as they want and live their lives as they want. They try to make God serve them rather than the other way around. Religion is a tool, a means to an end. This end may be money, fame, a sense of importance; most of the time it's happiness or making up for felt inadequacies of self or others. None of these, of course, are the goal of either Catholicism or Orthodoxy, but people can use the religions for these ends nonetheless.
 laugh LOL! Nice.


That is a given, and I didn't want to talk about people that way.  But regardless, the fact remains if you take out the american "me" protestant thinking influence, my post above rings true.
As a matter of fact the influx of the american "me" is one of the battles that Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodox face in the new world.  As we are to focus more on the community, the church, put others before ourselves and not let our individual "me me me" get in they way and severe the community.
Note my grumblings about those that tend to label themselves within a church community.
Terms like; convert, ethnic, cradle all seek to elevate an individual while these terms create division in the body of Christ, the church.  When we are initiated into the church, whether at the age of 40 days or 40 years, we all become equal members of the church*
Terms like; traditional catholic, cafeteria catholic... etc... do the same thing, they create  division within that church, which believes the same thing, in fact does the same as I wrote above.

American theory today is that everyone is unique and should express themselves as fully as they want, that they can believe what they want at any given moment and that a label or identity is needed in order to demonstrate a person's personal opinion or belief.
Eastern Orthodoxy/Roman Catholicism does allow for the faithful to be individuals and have differing interests.  However they have teachings that all must believe and an order and criteria that must be met in order to profess the faith.  Divisions/labels and encouraging variances from the church teachings within the Christian community is wrong because it tears at the unity we are to live in with our fellow church members.

I understand the need for someone to say say "Before finding the True Faith I was a member of X", as this allows for an inquirer from X to ask questions and get help from someone who walked the same path as him.

But the outright comments and rude diatribes of "those who were always Orthodox are X and don't know Y, but us Converts know everything and this and that" that I hear all the time from zealous young adults in real life gets old. Or those that seek to downplay or apply some reasoning as to why they can disregard church teaching and just tell others within the church "it is ok, we don't have to believe that or do this anyway, none of us believe that or do this, in fact my great-granddaddy and them didn't believe that or do this and they were from Czechoslovukrainrussia," these are equally damaging to the unity of the faithful.  When all of us were brought into the church we became equal members with all in the church (regardless if you were brought in at 40 days or 89 years).  The personal soap box ramblings I hear seek to tear apart from the unity of the faithful and are not representative of how Eastern Orthodox OR Roman Catholic communities are to be.  When we are brought into the church we are made new men, shed off the old man and become one with the Body of Christ, the Church.  Anything that causes dis-unity among the members or if a person seeks to defy or decide what/how he is going to accept or practice in relation to what the church teaches, these are wounds being ripped into the oneness of the faithful.
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« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2008, 04:26:53 PM »

Beloved in the Lord,

Let us forget and forgive  rancor and disputes during this Great Lent and remember the Prayer of Saint Ephraim the Syrian :

O Lord and Master of my life, take from me the spirit of sloth, faintheartedness, lust of power, and idle talk. (+)

But give rather the spirit of chastity, humility, patience and love to your servant. (+)

Yes, O Lord and King, grant me to see my own sin and not to judge my brother, for You are blessed from all ages to all ages. Amen. (+)

A reminder is given  that the purpose of the Convert issues forum is to provide a a place on the OC.Net where inquirers, catechumen, and newly converted could ask their questions about the Orthodox Faith in a safe and supportive forum without retribution or recrimination.  As a result we assume on this board that the writers are genuine in their ignorance and seeking answers rather than debate. We should all attempt to answer them with that in mind, providing direct and simple answers with sources if possible are most helpful.

The convert forum is not a place for combative debate or arguement.  Please report such activity to the moderators. Thank you for your following these guidelines to the edification and spiritual growth of the forum inquirers, catechumen, and newly converted.

In Christ,
Thomas
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« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2008, 04:50:24 PM »

Hey Guys! Grin


I've been trying to find all the important dates that correspond to Lent, and it's proving to be very difficult. Any websites you can recommend that break all this stuff down into a timetable or something? My head is spinning from all the Great this and Great that, and all the new dates and new celebrations... Huh
Thank you so so much!

See if your local Eastern Orthodox parish has a wall calender still around for 2008.  I say "still around" because usually they get taken home, but the priest may have one around.  They have the daily Saint, they show the feasts, they show the fasting days.  Every Jurisdiction has a different calender (in as much as what saints are listed on them, but all have commonalities) (ok, I know two that don't, but that's besides the point).  I would give you one as I think I may be able to get one.  Did I mention the wall caldenders also have Scripture readings for the day as well? 
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« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2008, 06:21:09 PM »

It may be helpful to have the whole Paschal-cycle calendar (I'm going to include the Greek Tradition of the Akathist):

Thank you Cleveland.  That is very helpful, especially for those of us with a memory like mine.

PB
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« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2008, 06:22:55 PM »

Beloved in the Lord,

Let us forget and forgive  rancor and disputes during this Great Lent and remember the Prayer of Saint Ephraim the Syrian :

O Lord and Master of my life, take from me the spirit of sloth, faintheartedness, lust of power, and idle talk. (+)

But give rather the spirit of chastity, humility, patience and love to your servant. (+)

Yes, O Lord and King, grant me to see my own sin and not to judge my brother, for You are blessed from all ages to all ages. Amen. (+)

A reminder is given  that the purpose of the Convert issues forum is to provide a a place on the OC.Net where inquirers, catechumen, and newly converted could ask their questions about the Orthodox Faith in a safe and supportive forum without retribution or recrimination.  As a result we assume on this board that the writers are genuine in their ignorance and seeking answers rather than debate. We should all attempt to answer them with that in mind, providing direct and simple answers with sources if possible are most helpful.

The convert forum is not a place for combative debate or arguement.  Please report such activity to the moderators. Thank you for your following these guidelines to the edification and spiritual growth of the forum inquirers, catechumen, and newly converted.

In Christ,
Thomas
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Thank you Thomas!  I was just thinking the same thing.

PB
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« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2008, 08:11:46 PM »

Thank you, Thomas. I sincerely apologize for inciting argument. I fear I was the one who brought this discussion into the realm of debate. Being a convert myself, I should have been more cognizant of the issues converts face. Please forgive me, all.

Username!, you made some very good points. I'm nominating your post for Post of the Month.
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