Author Topic: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”  (Read 12991 times)

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Offline Jesus_Is_God

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #45 on: February 10, 2011, 01:34:45 PM »
@Symeon The Assyrians are better then you piece of SLASH!. That is only my reply in this SLASH! forum. I wish if I could see and I will show who are the Assyrians and thier worse faith piece of SLASH!.
For using such a language you receive a 30-day-long post moderation. All your posts will have to be approved by the mods before publishing. Welcome to the forum - Michał Kalina.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 01:39:07 PM by Michał Kalina »

Offline jewish voice

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #46 on: January 05, 2015, 01:29:31 PM »
Anyone have more info on this group? Do they have churches in the US or UK

Offline Papist

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #47 on: January 05, 2015, 02:23:43 PM »

Then of course there is the thing they are probably most known for, which is denying that the Virgin Mary is the Mother of God, ("Theotokos.")  This is similar to the refusal to say that One of the Trinity suffered in the flesh.  It shows they believe in less of a union of Christ's divinity and humanity than the OO's and post-Constantinople II EO's.

Aren't the Assyrians now willing to profess that Mary is "The Mother of Christ our God?"
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Offline gueranger

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #48 on: January 05, 2015, 02:24:00 PM »
What do you guys think about the Common Christological Declaration of the Roman Catholic Church and the Assyrian Church of the East?

Is this document Orthodox, or too ambiguous? I imagine the Oriental Orthodox would have some serious objections to it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Christological_Declaration_Between_the_Catholic_Church_and_the_Assyrian_Church_of_the_East

Offline Papist

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #49 on: January 05, 2015, 02:33:12 PM »
What do you guys think about the Common Christological Declaration of the Roman Catholic Church and the Assyrian Church of the East?

Is this document Orthodox, or too ambiguous? I imagine the Oriental Orthodox would have some serious objections to it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Christological_Declaration_Between_the_Catholic_Church_and_the_Assyrian_Church_of_the_East
I wonder how an Oriental Catholics would feel about it.
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Offline Papist

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #50 on: January 05, 2015, 02:34:13 PM »
I personally don't like this language: "assuming from the holy Virgin Mary a body animated by a rational soul." I would prefer that it say, "assuming a human nature."
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Offline Papist

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #51 on: January 05, 2015, 02:34:59 PM »
But I do like this: "His divinity and his humanity are united in one person, without confusion or change, without division or separation."
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Offline Papist

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #52 on: January 05, 2015, 02:36:38 PM »
The Wiki article states, "The declaration went on to create a mixed committee for further theological dialogue between the two (now sister) churches. In 2001 this committee drew up guidelines for mutual admission to the eucharist between the Chaldean Catholic Church and the Assyrian Church of the East."

Does anyone know anything more about this?
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Offline gueranger

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #53 on: January 06, 2015, 08:27:44 AM »
In 2001 this committee drew up guidelines for mutual admission to the eucharist between the Chaldean Catholic Church and the Assyrian Church of the East."

Does anyone know anything more about this?

It caused quite a fuss in traddy circles, because one of the Liturgies of the Assyrian Church of the East has no words of institution, and the Vatican said it was valid.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20011025_chiesa-caldea-assira_en.html

Quote
Finally, the words of Eucharistic Institution are indeed present in the Anaphora of Addai and Mari, not in a coherent narrative way and ad litteram, but rather in a dispersed euchological way, that is, integrated in successive prayers of thanksgiving, praise and intercession.

...

When Chaldean faithful are participating in an Assyrian celebration of the Holy Eucharist, the Assyrian minister is warmly invited to insert the words of the Institution in the Anaphora of Addai and Mari, as allowed by the Holy Synod of the Assyrian Church of the East.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2015, 08:28:53 AM by gueranger »

Offline Papist

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #54 on: January 06, 2015, 11:31:16 AM »
In 2001 this committee drew up guidelines for mutual admission to the eucharist between the Chaldean Catholic Church and the Assyrian Church of the East."

Does anyone know anything more about this?

It caused quite a fuss in traddy circles, because one of the Liturgies of the Assyrian Church of the East has no words of institution, and the Vatican said it was valid.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20011025_chiesa-caldea-assira_en.html

Quote
Finally, the words of Eucharistic Institution are indeed present in the Anaphora of Addai and Mari, not in a coherent narrative way and ad litteram, but rather in a dispersed euchological way, that is, integrated in successive prayers of thanksgiving, praise and intercession.

...

When Chaldean faithful are participating in an Assyrian celebration of the Holy Eucharist, the Assyrian minister is warmly invited to insert the words of the Institution in the Anaphora of Addai and Mari, as allowed by the Holy Synod of the Assyrian Church of the East.
But what about intercommunion. Did Rome give the go ahead for Catholics to receive Holy Communion in the Assyrian Churches? As far as I understand, Rome still forbids all Catholics from communing outside of the Catholic Church.
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Offline Regnare

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #55 on: January 06, 2015, 11:46:18 AM »
But what about intercommunion. Did Rome give the go ahead for Catholics to receive Holy Communion in the Assyrian Churches? As far as I understand, Rome still forbids all Catholics from communing outside of the Catholic Church.
Here is the actual agreement. It seems to be only to the degree that Catholics are allowed to commune in Orthodox churches, i.e., when there is no Catholic church available:
Quote
4. Guidelines for admission to the Eucharist
Considering the liturgical tradition of the Assyrian Church of the East, the doctrinal clarification regarding the validity of the Anaphora of Addai and Mari, the contemporary context in which both Assyrian and Chaldean faithful are living, the appropriate regulations which are foreseen in official documents of the Catholic Church, and the process of rapprochement between the Chaldean Church and the Assyrian Church of the East, the following provision is made:
1. When necessity requires, Assyrian faithful are permitted to participate and to receive Holy Communion in a Chaldean celebration of the Holy Eucharist; in the same way, Chaldean faithful for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister, are permitted to participate and to receive Holy Communion in an Assyrian celebration of the Holy Eucharist.
2. In both cases, Assyrian and Chaldean ministers celebrate the Holy Eucharist according to the liturgical prescriptions and customs of their own tradition.
3. When Chaldean faithful are participating in an Assyrian celebration of the Holy Eucharist, the Assyrian minister is warmly invited to insert the words of the Institution in the Anaphora of Addai and Mari, as allowed by the Holy Synod of the Assyrian Church of the East.
4. The above considerations on the use of the Anaphora of Addai and Mari and the present guidelines for admission to the Eucharist, are intended exclusively in relation to the Eucharistic celebration and admission to the Eucharist of the faithful from the Chaldean Church and the Assyrian Church of the East, in view of the pastoral necessity and ecumenical context mentioned above.
It is much easier to actually do this with the Assyrians than with the Orthodox, as the Assyrians have a policy of semi-open communion, admitting anyone who confesses the Real Presence.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2015, 11:46:44 AM by Regnare »

Offline Papist

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #56 on: January 06, 2015, 11:55:02 AM »
But what about intercommunion. Did Rome give the go ahead for Catholics to receive Holy Communion in the Assyrian Churches? As far as I understand, Rome still forbids all Catholics from communing outside of the Catholic Church.
Here is the actual agreement. It seems to be only to the degree that Catholics are allowed to commune in Orthodox churches, i.e., when there is no Catholic church available:
Quote
4. Guidelines for admission to the Eucharist
Considering the liturgical tradition of the Assyrian Church of the East, the doctrinal clarification regarding the validity of the Anaphora of Addai and Mari, the contemporary context in which both Assyrian and Chaldean faithful are living, the appropriate regulations which are foreseen in official documents of the Catholic Church, and the process of rapprochement between the Chaldean Church and the Assyrian Church of the East, the following provision is made:
1. When necessity requires, Assyrian faithful are permitted to participate and to receive Holy Communion in a Chaldean celebration of the Holy Eucharist; in the same way, Chaldean faithful for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister, are permitted to participate and to receive Holy Communion in an Assyrian celebration of the Holy Eucharist.
2. In both cases, Assyrian and Chaldean ministers celebrate the Holy Eucharist according to the liturgical prescriptions and customs of their own tradition.
3. When Chaldean faithful are participating in an Assyrian celebration of the Holy Eucharist, the Assyrian minister is warmly invited to insert the words of the Institution in the Anaphora of Addai and Mari, as allowed by the Holy Synod of the Assyrian Church of the East.
4. The above considerations on the use of the Anaphora of Addai and Mari and the present guidelines for admission to the Eucharist, are intended exclusively in relation to the Eucharistic celebration and admission to the Eucharist of the faithful from the Chaldean Church and the Assyrian Church of the East, in view of the pastoral necessity and ecumenical context mentioned above.
It is much easier to actually do this with the Assyrians than with the Orthodox, as the Assyrians have a policy of semi-open communion, admitting anyone who confesses the Real Presence.
Thanks. I wonder if Catholics of other sui juri Churches would be allowed to commune in an Assyrian Church. For example, I wonder what the situation would be if a Maronite Catholic were to find himself in a city where the only available Church would be an Assyrian one.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2015, 11:56:18 AM by Papist »
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Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #57 on: January 06, 2015, 11:55:39 AM »
In 2001 this committee drew up guidelines for mutual admission to the eucharist between the Chaldean Catholic Church and the Assyrian Church of the East."

Does anyone know anything more about this?

It caused quite a fuss in traddy circles, because one of the Liturgies of the Assyrian Church of the East has no words of institution, and the Vatican said it was valid.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20011025_chiesa-caldea-assira_en.html

Quote
Finally, the words of Eucharistic Institution are indeed present in the Anaphora of Addai and Mari, not in a coherent narrative way and ad litteram, but rather in a dispersed euchological way, that is, integrated in successive prayers of thanksgiving, praise and intercession.

...

When Chaldean faithful are participating in an Assyrian celebration of the Holy Eucharist, the Assyrian minister is warmly invited to insert the words of the Institution in the Anaphora of Addai and Mari, as allowed by the Holy Synod of the Assyrian Church of the East.

Well, that's interesting, considering that the ACE's liturgy (without the Words of Institution) probably hasn't changed much at all since the first few centuries, back when the Assyrians were in communion with Rome (and Constantinople, Alexandria, etc.) and no one gave a fuss about it. If not having those words wasn't a problem then, why should it be now? It seems as though the self-proclaimed "traditionalists" always seem to be the ones with the strongest attachment to later developments and ideas. It's rather analogous to those Orthodox who think the Julian calendar (or the Byzantine Rite, etc.) was handed down from on high, despite the fact that in the pre-Nicene era, there were many calendars and rites used in different places and that worked just fine and no one considered it worth breaking communion over.
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Offline Papist

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #58 on: January 06, 2015, 11:57:27 AM »
In 2001 this committee drew up guidelines for mutual admission to the eucharist between the Chaldean Catholic Church and the Assyrian Church of the East."

Does anyone know anything more about this?

It caused quite a fuss in traddy circles, because one of the Liturgies of the Assyrian Church of the East has no words of institution, and the Vatican said it was valid.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20011025_chiesa-caldea-assira_en.html

Quote
Finally, the words of Eucharistic Institution are indeed present in the Anaphora of Addai and Mari, not in a coherent narrative way and ad litteram, but rather in a dispersed euchological way, that is, integrated in successive prayers of thanksgiving, praise and intercession.

...

When Chaldean faithful are participating in an Assyrian celebration of the Holy Eucharist, the Assyrian minister is warmly invited to insert the words of the Institution in the Anaphora of Addai and Mari, as allowed by the Holy Synod of the Assyrian Church of the East.

Well, that's interesting, considering that the ACE's liturgy (without the Words of Institution) probably hasn't changed much at all since the first few centuries, back when the Assyrians were in communion with Rome (and Constantinople, Alexandria, etc.) and no one gave a fuss about it. If not having those words wasn't a problem then, why should it be now? It seems as though the self-proclaimed "traditionalists" always seem to be the ones with the strongest attachment to later developments and ideas. It's rather analogous to those Orthodox who think the Julian calendar (or the Byzantine Rite, etc.) was handed down from on high, despite the fact that in the pre-Nicene era, there were many calendars and rites used in different places and that worked just fine and no one considered it worth breaking communion over.
It does seem to be a problem that Latin Traditionalists are overly concerned with conformity to one specific way of understanding the Divine Mystery. This is especially problematic in light of the fact that, as you point out, many Latin formulation of dogma and tradition did not arrive on the scene until after a long period of greater theological and liturgical diversity.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2015, 11:58:41 AM by Papist »
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Offline kijabeboy03

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #59 on: January 07, 2015, 07:41:53 AM »
In 2001 this committee drew up guidelines for mutual admission to the eucharist between the Chaldean Catholic Church and the Assyrian Church of the East."

Does anyone know anything more about this?

It caused quite a fuss in traddy circles, because one of the Liturgies of the Assyrian Church of the East has no words of institution, and the Vatican said it was valid.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20011025_chiesa-caldea-assira_en.html

Quote
Finally, the words of Eucharistic Institution are indeed present in the Anaphora of Addai and Mari, not in a coherent narrative way and ad litteram, but rather in a dispersed euchological way, that is, integrated in successive prayers of thanksgiving, praise and intercession.

...

When Chaldean faithful are participating in an Assyrian celebration of the Holy Eucharist, the Assyrian minister is warmly invited to insert the words of the Institution in the Anaphora of Addai and Mari, as allowed by the Holy Synod of the Assyrian Church of the East.

Well, that's interesting, considering that the ACE's liturgy (without the Words of Institution) probably hasn't changed much at all since the first few centuries, back when the Assyrians were in communion with Rome (and Constantinople, Alexandria, etc.) and no one gave a fuss about it. If not having those words wasn't a problem then, why should it be now? It seems as though the self-proclaimed "traditionalists" always seem to be the ones with the strongest attachment to later developments and ideas. It's rather analogous to those Orthodox who think the Julian calendar (or the Byzantine Rite, etc.) was handed down from on high, despite the fact that in the pre-Nicene era, there were many calendars and rites used in different places and that worked just fine and no one considered it worth breaking communion over.

Roman Catholic fundamentalists are hung up on the Words of Institution, Byzantine Orthodox fundamentalists over explicit epicleses - to each their own ;-).
« Last Edit: January 07, 2015, 07:42:15 AM by kijabeboy03 »
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Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #60 on: January 07, 2015, 11:36:02 AM »
In 2001 this committee drew up guidelines for mutual admission to the eucharist between the Chaldean Catholic Church and the Assyrian Church of the East."

Does anyone know anything more about this?

It caused quite a fuss in traddy circles, because one of the Liturgies of the Assyrian Church of the East has no words of institution, and the Vatican said it was valid.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20011025_chiesa-caldea-assira_en.html

Quote
Finally, the words of Eucharistic Institution are indeed present in the Anaphora of Addai and Mari, not in a coherent narrative way and ad litteram, but rather in a dispersed euchological way, that is, integrated in successive prayers of thanksgiving, praise and intercession.

...

When Chaldean faithful are participating in an Assyrian celebration of the Holy Eucharist, the Assyrian minister is warmly invited to insert the words of the Institution in the Anaphora of Addai and Mari, as allowed by the Holy Synod of the Assyrian Church of the East.

Well, that's interesting, considering that the ACE's liturgy (without the Words of Institution) probably hasn't changed much at all since the first few centuries, back when the Assyrians were in communion with Rome (and Constantinople, Alexandria, etc.) and no one gave a fuss about it. If not having those words wasn't a problem then, why should it be now? It seems as though the self-proclaimed "traditionalists" always seem to be the ones with the strongest attachment to later developments and ideas. It's rather analogous to those Orthodox who think the Julian calendar (or the Byzantine Rite, etc.) was handed down from on high, despite the fact that in the pre-Nicene era, there were many calendars and rites used in different places and that worked just fine and no one considered it worth breaking communion over.

The Latin position crystallized in the 13th century as the Scholastic movement defined the "moment" of transubstantiation to be when Christ's "words of Institution" are spoken by the priest. This of course ignores the first millennium, where such a question never seems to have bothered anyone all that much, as well as ignoring the aforementioned ancient Anaphora of Mari and Addai of the Assyrian Church which does not contain these words. The first millennium position, in so far as the question was even entertained, seems to be that the Eucharist has become the Lord's Body and Blood at the conclusion of the prayers - the Eucharistic liturgy is an integral whole and it is pointless to divide it up. I think the Byzantine emphasis on the epiklesis as the "moment" is an overreaction to the Latin position - committing the same error in needing to identify the "moment" but polemically picking a point that is much less evident in the Roman Mass.

I think the "Byzantine superiority" of some Orthodox and the "Roman superiority" of Catholic traditionalists comes from the same place - "Of course the [Byzantine/Roman] rite is the best; everyone who used something else ended up a heretic!"
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Offline wgw

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #61 on: January 17, 2015, 06:40:24 AM »
I've been to the local Assyrian Church, and two of their clergy are among my close friends.  Their liturgy is evocative of that of the Syeiac Orthodox Church, being entirly in East Syriac, but the structure is different.  There are four scripture lessons culminating in the gospel.  Interestingly, the two Old Testament lessons appear to me at first glance to correspond with the Torah/haftarah portions of the Jewish lectionary, not on a date basis but rather on the basis of the pairing of individual haftarah with specific Torah chapters; it struck me as lining up not infrequently on chapter and verse boundaries.  Historically Assyrian and Chaldean churches had Bemas, and these are being retrofitted at present.

There are three liturgies, the most famous being that of Ss. Addai and Mari.  This is used also by the Syro Malabar Catholics and the Chaldeans.  In its original form as used by the Assyrians it lacks an institution narrative, which was inserted into the Catholic variants.  The others are the Liturgy of Nestorius, which is believed to be a recension of that of St. Basil, St. John Chrysostom or another liturgy in use at Constantinople, and named for Neatorius on account of its origin.  It is used on a few feast days throughout the year.  Then there is the Liturgy of Theodore of Mopsuesria, which Dom Gregory Dix argued was not actually written by Theodore, but was rather the traditional Lituegy of Mopsuestia, on the basis of the words of this liturgy not quite agreeing with the interpretation of them he provided in his commentary on the liturgy (if I recall, Theodore felt the prepared unconsecrated bread and wine represented the dead flesh and blood of our Lord, and the epiclesis resurrected it.

I myself have translations of Addai and Mari and Nestorius, and some daily prayers, but I lack a good English translation of the Liturgy of Theodore of Mopsuestia, so if anyone knows of one I would appreciate it.  It is the default used from Advent until Easter, then they switch to Addai and Mari, however, Addai and Mari is used for the nightly liturgy in the Rogation of the Ninevites, which they celebrate together with the Oriental Orthodox.
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Offline Salpy

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #62 on: January 17, 2015, 12:52:14 PM »
You may want to contact this priest:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,47112.0.html

He may have what you are looking for, or know where you can get it.

Offline wgw

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #63 on: January 18, 2015, 06:02:40 PM »
The consecration of an Assyrian church (the former parish of Mar Bawai Soro reconsecrated?). Beautiful chant!

Does anyone know if this building being reconsecrated as an Orthodox (under ecclesiastical hierarchy) parish?

Thank you, Romaios, for sharing... and welcome to the forum.  :)

That liturgy is definitely an Assyrian Church of the East liturgy.  Note the distinctive vesture of the deacons with characteristic yellow stoles with red crosses and fringes, the vesrment of the celebrant in a Roman stole, the Syriac/Armenian style tiered altar, but, unlike in an Armenian or Ayriac church, the absence of iconography.  Notice also how the deacons form a V shape around rhe celebrant.
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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #64 on: January 18, 2015, 06:04:42 PM »
You may want to contact this priest:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,47112.0.html

He may have what you are looking for, or know where you can get it.

Ha!  It's a small world.  Fr. Ephraim is one of my best friends.   He's no longer with the Antiochian church though, he returned to the Assyrian church.  And alas last time we spoke he did not know of a good translation of Theosore of Mopsuestia in its entirety.
Antisemitism, racism and prejudicial nationalism should have no place in Orthodoxy.  For to paraphrase  St. Paul, there is neither Jew nor Greek, neither male nor female, slave or freeman, in the Christian Church.

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #65 on: January 18, 2015, 06:09:58 PM »
People on an Assyrian forum I went to told me that the Assyrian Church of the East accepts all baptized Christians to communion. In my opinion, this is because the Church is so small and pressured by the rest of Christendom, especially Catholicism, to be more inclusive.

They accept all baptized Christians who believe the Eucharist truly becomes the body and blood of Jesus Christ.  That limits the playing field to Ccatholics, Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, Anglo Catholics of the Dom Gregory Dix variety who reject the 39 Articles, and probably, Lutherans and a few other groups (Old Catholics and the numerous indepdent Carholic churches, some of which I have an affection for).
Antisemitism, racism and prejudicial nationalism should have no place in Orthodoxy.  For to paraphrase  St. Paul, there is neither Jew nor Greek, neither male nor female, slave or freeman, in the Christian Church.

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #66 on: January 18, 2015, 08:10:27 PM »
You may want to contact this priest:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,47112.0.html

He may have what you are looking for, or know where you can get it.

Ha!  It's a small world.  Fr. Ephraim is one of my best friends.   He's no longer with the Antiochian church though, he returned to the Assyrian church.  And alas last time we spoke he did not know of a good translation of Theosore of Mopsuestia in its entirety.

I did not know he went back to the Assyrian Church. 

If he doesn't have the text you want, I don't know who would.   ???

Offline wgw

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #67 on: January 18, 2015, 11:30:21 PM »
Indeed I seem to have reached a proverbial dead end.  So I guess I'd better start brushing up on my Syriac (after all, aside from the ancient liturfy of Mopsuestia, there's the 59 or so Anaphorae of the Syriac Orthodox Church that have never been translated).
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Offline Avdima

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #68 on: January 19, 2015, 01:07:00 AM »
In 2001 this committee drew up guidelines for mutual admission to the eucharist between the Chaldean Catholic Church and the Assyrian Church of the East."

Does anyone know anything more about this?

It caused quite a fuss in traddy circles, because one of the Liturgies of the Assyrian Church of the East has no words of institution, and the Vatican said it was valid.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20011025_chiesa-caldea-assira_en.html

Quote
Finally, the words of Eucharistic Institution are indeed present in the Anaphora of Addai and Mari, not in a coherent narrative way and ad litteram, but rather in a dispersed euchological way, that is, integrated in successive prayers of thanksgiving, praise and intercession.

...

When Chaldean faithful are participating in an Assyrian celebration of the Holy Eucharist, the Assyrian minister is warmly invited to insert the words of the Institution in the Anaphora of Addai and Mari, as allowed by the Holy Synod of the Assyrian Church of the East.

Well, that's interesting, considering that the ACE's liturgy (without the Words of Institution) probably hasn't changed much at all since the first few centuries, back when the Assyrians were in communion with Rome (and Constantinople, Alexandria, etc.) and no one gave a fuss about it. If not having those words wasn't a problem then, why should it be now? It seems as though the self-proclaimed "traditionalists" always seem to be the ones with the strongest attachment to later developments and ideas. It's rather analogous to those Orthodox who think the Julian calendar (or the Byzantine Rite, etc.) was handed down from on high, despite the fact that in the pre-Nicene era, there were many calendars and rites used in different places and that worked just fine and no one considered it worth breaking communion over.

Great Post...

Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #69 on: January 19, 2015, 02:53:14 PM »
Indeed I seem to have reached a proverbial dead end.  So I guess I'd better start brushing up on my Syriac (after all, aside from the ancient liturfy of Mopsuestia, there's the 59 or so Anaphorae of the Syriac Orthodox Church that have never been translated).

There's so much Syriac that hasn't been translated - plenty of work for burgeoning Syriacists! For my dissertation I'm editing and translating a group of onyatha by Giwargis Warda; there's around 150 of them in the ktaba d-warda, but only about 35 or so have made their way to a Western language.
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and have been instructed in Your glories,
   and yet I have become occupied in shameful things!

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Offline sakura95

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #70 on: January 19, 2015, 03:48:27 PM »
There's very little resource I could find about the ACOE. But I've been wondering for a long time, what's their view on the Saints. Do they pray to them for intercession?

I know that there was a person who said that they have a more Lutheran viewpoint about the Saints. I checked the source linked by the said person and I'm very doubtful about it. So hence my question.
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Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #71 on: January 19, 2015, 04:02:50 PM »
There's very little resource I could find about the ACOE. But I've been wondering for a long time, what's their view on the Saints. Do they pray to them for intercession?

I know that there was a person who said that they have a more Lutheran viewpoint about the Saints. I checked the source linked by the said person and I'm very doubtful about it. So hence my question.

One of my professors is Chaldean, born in Mosul, and the Chaldeans certainly pray to the saints; he says that everyone in that region, at least when he was a child, Chaldean, Assyrian or Muslim (and some Jews), visited the tombs of saints and venerated their relics. The East Syrian tradition certainly has a much less-developed liturgical cultus of the saints than the Orthodox or Catholics, but it is a part of popular piety, at least to some degree. There is an article that gives some primary sources for evidence that East Syrians used icons in the pre-Islamic and early-Islamic period: Herman Teule, “The Veneration of Images in the East Syriac Tradition,” in Die Welt der Götterbilder. I will be visiting my school this weekend; I will see if I can track down that article.
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and have been instructed in Your glories,
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Offline sakura95

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #72 on: January 19, 2015, 04:14:12 PM »
One of my professors is Chaldean, born in Mosul, and the Chaldeans certainly pray to the saints; he says that everyone in that region, at least when he was a child, Chaldean, Assyrian or Muslim (and some Jews), visited the tombs of saints and venerated their relics. The East Syrian tradition certainly has a much less-developed liturgical cultus of the saints than the Orthodox or Catholics, but it is a part of popular piety, at least to some degree. There is an article that gives some primary sources for evidence that East Syrians used icons in the pre-Islamic and early-Islamic period: Herman Teule, “The Veneration of Images in the East Syriac Tradition,” in Die Welt der Götterbilder. I will be visiting my school this weekend; I will see if I can track down that article.

Interesting. So I suppose the Assyrians pray to the Saints though their liturgical cultus of the saints is less developed.
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Offline wgw

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #73 on: January 19, 2015, 04:33:46 PM »
In spite of not calling her Theotokos, the Assyrians do heavily venerate St. Mary, and the local parish has a special Dormition service every August 15.

By the way, I will confess to, in the past, before my Orthodox formation had really begun, Ireceived communion at the Assyrian church (actually before I knew better I took communion from pretty much,everyone, including the Episcopalians; their bread and wine had certainly not become the body and blood of our Lord as the,white wine they used gave me horrible heartburn; the Eucharist, if it's real, should not be able to cause indigestion; on the other hand I have known the Eucharist from the Orthodox Church to make me feel better).  I will say the Assyrians have hands down the tastiest bread, perhaps owing to their Malka sacrament in which the ancient yeast is reused.  The communion is followed by sweetened antidoron.  Taking communion at the Assyrian church made me crave pizza.  I can't say if it's a valid Eucharist or not, as unlike with the Episcopal church nothing unpleasant followed taking it, and alas I don't have a trans-substantiometer that can examine the substance of objects apart from their accidents.

In general the Assyrians are good people and I've spent a lot of time wrestling with the hypothetical question of how to restore communion between them, the Oriental Orthodox and the Eastern Orthodox.  The Christological agreements with the Vatican and the reforms made by Mar Dinkha certainly suggest a common christology exists at least as far as the Roman Catholic interpretation of Chalcedon.  The Oriental Orthodox also came to a similiar agreement with Rome.  So really it seems to me the personal question about the veneration of Nestorius is the main dividing issue at present.  In the 1990s the Oriental Orthodox nearly did a deal with them but it fell apart over the Coptic insistence that the Assyrians anathematize Nestorius in the liturgy; Mar Dinkha IV is opposed to liturgical anathemas as a general principle.  Anyone who loves the Syriac Orthodox, as do I, will also love and care about the other Syriac churches, the Assyrians and Chaldeans, who actually use Syriac in the vernacular more than anyone else, and the Maronites and Syriac Catholics, and all the Nasrani churches.  

For that matter, it's hard to be a lover of Syriac Christianity and not find the Mandaeans fascinating: they are the Aramaic speaking Gnostics who follow John the Baptist as their chief prophet, view Jesus as an imposter and the Holy Spirit (described in the feminine, as in St. Ephrem, a typically Semitic detail) to be evil, baptize every Sunday, use as the banner of their community a cross with a fabric drape called a durshan or darshan, follow astrology that appears connected with the ancient Chaldean religion of the Babylonians, and make use of sacred threads and other accoutrements that closely resemble Zoroastrianism.
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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #74 on: January 19, 2015, 05:20:47 PM »
In the 1990s the Oriental Orthodox nearly did a deal with them but it fell apart over the Coptic insistence that the Assyrians anathematize Nestorius in the liturgy; Mar Dinkha IV is opposed to liturgical anathemas as a general principle.  

I wonder if some sort of misunderstanding occurred then.  His Eminence Metropolitan Bishoy explained it as if it was some sort of deception by the Assyrian Church, where they promised on anathematizing Nestorius only to renege on that promise later.  But I have noticed that the Assyrian Church is moving towards lifting anathemas in general, even if they may have disagreements with those whom they have anathematized in the past.  So perhaps when HE Metropolitan Bishoy heard that they are willing to lift the anathema against St. Cyril, they thought that meant they are rejecting Nestorius, which is not the intention. 

There is also the other possibility of the actor playing in this role, Mar Bawai Soro, who for reasons obscured by Church politics at the moment, defected from the Assyrian Church and went to the Chaldean Catholic Church.  He was the Assyrian Church's largest ecumenical theologian at the time, and he was the one HE Metropolitan Bishoy referred to in his objection to the Assyrian Church's proposals and alleged "reneging".

So I hope this calls for fresh talks and discussions later on in the future.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #75 on: January 19, 2015, 05:39:17 PM »
By the way, I will confess to, in the past, before my Orthodox formation had really begun, Ireceived communion at the Assyrian church (actually before I knew better I took communion from pretty much,everyone, including the Episcopalians; their bread and wine had certainly not become the body and blood of our Lord as the,white wine they used gave me horrible heartburn; the Eucharist, if it's real, should not be able to cause indigestion; on the other hand I have known the Eucharist from the Orthodox Church to make me feel better).

I don't know that I would agree with this.  The Eucharist is the Eucharist, but if you drink too much of the Blood (e.g., if you are purifying vessels at the end), you might feel the effects of alcohol; if the Body goes down the wrong pipe, you will choke; if you are sick, and receive Communion, you might vomit soon after anyway (this happened to me once); and so on. 

Quote
I will say the Assyrians have hands down the tastiest bread, perhaps owing to their Malka sacrament in which the ancient yeast is reused.  

We follow the same tradition in India, but I don't think I would say it's the tastiest bread.  It's certainly distinctive and I love the tradition. 

Quote
The communion is followed by sweetened antidoron.  Taking communion at the Assyrian church made me crave pizza.

:)

Quote
Anyone who loves the Syriac Orthodox, as do I, will also love and care about the other Syriac churches, the Assyrians and Chaldeans, who actually use Syriac in the vernacular more than anyone else, and the Maronites and Syriac Catholics, and all the Nasrani churches.

+1
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Offline Irish Melkite

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #76 on: January 30, 2015, 04:12:09 AM »
Anyone have more info on this group? Do they have churches in the US or UK

About which group are you asking? If the Assyrian Church of the East, yes they do - in fact their Patriarch resides in the US. Their centers of highest density are in Illinois and California, but there are 3 dioceses in all in the US and 1 in Canada. They have churches in the UK under a diocese that encompasses all of Europe.

The Ancient Church of the East (which split with the Assyrians a half-century ago over several issues, including calendar and the residence of the patriarchate) has only relatively recently established a diocese in North America, although the bishop is non-residential being an auxiliary to the metropolitan of Baghdad and responsible for both Syria and North America. They made some calendar changes about 5 years ago in what was seen as a move toward dialogue and a joint synod was proposed, but I don't believe a date has been set. 

Many years,

Neil
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Offline jewish voice

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #77 on: January 30, 2015, 10:53:10 PM »
Anyone have more info on this group? Do they have churches in the US or UK

About which group are you asking? If the Assyrian Church of the East, yes they do - in fact their Patriarch resides in the US. Their centers of highest density are in Illinois and California, but there are 3 dioceses in all in the US and 1 in Canada. They have churches in the UK under a diocese that encompasses all of Europe.

The Ancient Church of the East (which split with the Assyrians a half-century ago over several issues, including calendar and the residence of the patriarchate) has only relatively recently established a diocese in North America, although the bishop is non-residential being an auxiliary to the metropolitan of Baghdad and responsible for both Syria and North America. They made some calendar changes about 5 years ago in what was seen as a move toward dialogue and a joint synod was proposed, but I don't believe a date has been set. 

Many years,

Neil
I was just wondering. I wanted to see if they might be around me to see their liturgy once. I couldn't find church listings and thought they might not be here

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #78 on: January 31, 2015, 01:33:33 AM »
There is a list of parishes here, but it might not be complete. Also quite a few of the parishes seem to be mislabeled (e. g., there are ACOTE parishes listed as Catholic).

By far most of the parishes seem to be in California, with a few in Illinois. I know for a fact that there aren't any in my state.
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Offline Irish Melkite

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #79 on: January 31, 2015, 05:09:53 AM »
There is a list of parishes here, but it might not be complete. Also quite a few of the parishes seem to be mislabeled (e. g., there are ACOTE parishes listed as Catholic).


The labels can be problematic. Some of the parishes that joined the Chaldeans with Mar Barwai Soro adopted the terminology 'Assyro-Chaldean' and there are, as well, some Assyrian parishes also using that terminology.

Many years,

Neil
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Offline Regnare

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #80 on: January 31, 2015, 12:27:32 PM »
I will say the Assyrians have hands down the tastiest bread, perhaps owing to their Malka sacrament in which the ancient yeast is reused.  
We follow the same tradition in India, but I don't think I would say it's the tastiest bread.  It's certainly distinctive and I love the tradition. 
Do both Jacobites and Malankara Orthodox follow the tradition of Malka, or just one? Do any other Indian churches outside the East Syriac Rite?

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #81 on: January 31, 2015, 01:40:33 PM »
I will say the Assyrians have hands down the tastiest bread, perhaps owing to their Malka sacrament in which the ancient yeast is reused.  
We follow the same tradition in India, but I don't think I would say it's the tastiest bread.  It's certainly distinctive and I love the tradition. 
Do both Jacobites and Malankara Orthodox follow the tradition of Malka, or just one?

As far as I know, both follow it. 

Quote
Do any other Indian churches outside the East Syriac Rite?

I doubt it.  The "Eastern" Protestant churches use RC style hosts.  The Eastern Catholics manufacture their own RC style hosts (the seal is Eastern, but not much else) or just use the RC hosts.   
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