Author Topic: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”  (Read 12177 times)

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Offline _Seraphim_

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Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« on: March 20, 2008, 10:22:03 PM »
I have been reading online about the “Assyrian Church of the East,” but I still remain pretty confused about them.

Does anyone know if there are any OO or EO in communion them?
If not, are there any hopeful relations currently going on (as with OO/EO)?

I have read that there are at least two groups of “Assyrian Christians”
1) The Assyrian Church of the East (not in communion with Rome)
2) The Chaldean Catholic Church (in communion with Rome)

Also, even if neither of these are in communion with any OO or EO, are there any Persian/Assyrian/Iranian/Iraqi Orthodox churches?

Thanks to anyone who can help with this.
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Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2008, 10:43:44 PM »
Does anyone know if there are any OO or EO in communion them?

There are not.

Quote
If not, are there any hopeful relations currently going on (as with OO/EO)?

Nothing that could be described as hopeful.

Quote
I have read that there are at least two groups of “Assyrian Christians”
1) The Assyrian Church of the East (not in communion with Rome)
2) The Chaldean Catholic Church (in communion with Rome)

The Assyrian Church of the East is itself divided, into a new calendar branch and an old calendar/traditionalist branch. The schism happened when the then Patriarch decided to take a wife and get married - a practice not unprecedented in the Assyrian Church, but which nonetheless caused enough outrage for him to be assassinated - and other modernist reforms.

Lamentably, the Church of the East has all but been wiped out in its traditional Iraqi homeland following the American invasion, which has led to a surge in Islamic extremism and removed the relative protection the group previously had under Saddam. So, except for its continued presence in India, the Church of the East is now pretty much confined to diaspora communities in America, Sweden, Germany, and elsewhere.

Quote
Also, even if neither of these are in communion with any OO or EO, are there any Persian/Assyrian/Iranian/Iraqi Orthodox churches?

There was a reference to a ROCOR Church in Iran, where the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom is done in Syriac, elsewhere on this forum.

Offline Anastasios

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2008, 10:45:18 PM »
The Assyrians are not in communion with anyone. They are a completely separate Church that only accepts 2 ecumenical councils.

Yes there are Iraqi Orthodox under the Patriarchate of Antioch.
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Offline Anastasios

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2008, 10:54:22 PM »


Lamentably, the Church of the East has all but been wiped out in its traditional Iraqi homeland following the American invasion, which has led to a surge in Islamic extremism and removed the relative protection the group previously had under Saddam. So, except for its continued presence in India, the Church of the East is now pretty much confined to diaspora communities in America, Sweden, Germany, and elsewhere.


Protection under Saddam? Even though you qualified it with relative, I am not so sure. It was being persecuted under him because while as a secularist he allowed some religious freedom to Christians, it was to Arab Christians, or those Assyrians who would self-identify as Arab, such as Tariq Aziz (who was an atheist anyway). People were emigrating a lot under him--the situation was pretty bad, bad enough that some Assyrian bishops were supporting the US invasion of Iraq in the hopes of getting assistance in this.

Post-war, things are worse, and I am not denying that the exodus has sped up since 2003, but they have been dwindling in increasing numbers for a very long time now. Saddam, Islamic extremists, have all contributed in various ways to producing the mass exodus of these poor people.
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Offline _Seraphim_

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2008, 05:13:48 PM »
Thank you everyone for your informative replies.  They are a great help.   :)

A couple more questions:

The Assyrians are not in communion with anyone. They are a completely separate Church that only accepts 2 ecumenical councils.

So, are there any other groups like the Assyrian church?  I have heard that the Assyrians are Nestorians (and therefore obviously heretical, both from an OO and EO perspective).  Are there, for instance, any Arian groups still in existence?  I guess this is the main factor about the Assyrians that initially confused me: that a non-Orthodox (neither OO nor EO) group still continued to exist for 2,000 years. 

Just to clarify both for myself and whoever reads this, of all the current Christian groups in the word, they can all be categorized as one of the following:
Oriental Orthodox
Eastern Orthodox
Roman Catholic
Protestant
Assyrian Church of the East

Is this list complete, or are there even more (besides Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons)?  If this list is complete, then it drives the point even further as to why I have been so interested in who exactly the Assyrian church is.  It just seems so, well, “interesting” that they have continually remained in existence for 2,000 years as the only completely isolated “fringe” group of ancient Christianity.  Please understand I’m not trying to justify Assyrian/Nestorian theology, I just want to make sure I’m understanding the whole picture here.


Yes there are Iraqi Orthodox under the Patriarchate of Antioch.

Praise God!  Do you know of any links or other ways to find more information about Iraqi and Iranian Orthodoxy? 

Part of what prompted my current research was a conversation with a man from my parish who said he is of Persian ancestry, and that he has heard of “Persian Orthodox” Christians.  I know he would be very interested to know more about this subject.


Once again, thanks everyone for sharing.  God bless
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Offline John of the North

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2008, 05:55:37 PM »
Are there, for instance, any Arian groups still in existence? 

Yes, but they have not had continous organizational existence for 2000 years...
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Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2008, 06:03:08 PM »
It just seems so, well, “interesting” that they have continually remained in existence for 2,000 years as the only completely isolated “fringe” group of ancient Christianity. 

I don't really see what makes this so unique. The Church of the East was Orthodox for the first five centuries A.D. Why is the survival of the Nestorian church for 1,500 years post-schism any more remarkable than the survival of the Latin church 1,000 years post-schism?

It should also be noted that the Church of the East, to which St. Isaac the Syrian belonged, was by no means an isolated or insignificant "fringe group". As the Byzantine Empire was collapsing, the Nestorian Patriarch of Baghdad had a diocese that extended as far east as China. I'm not sure about the numbers, but certainly in terms of territory the Church of the East was as big as any other.

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2008, 06:12:17 PM »
They had millions of people at one point. One of their patriarchs was even Chinese!
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2008, 06:17:56 PM »
Thank you everyone for your informative replies.  They are a great help.   :)

A couple more questions:

So, are there any other groups like the Assyrian church?  I have heard that the Assyrians are Nestorians (and therefore obviously heretical, both from an OO and EO perspective).  Are there, for instance, any Arian groups still in existence?  I guess this is the main factor about the Assyrians that initially confused me: that a non-Orthodox (neither OO nor EO) group still continued to exist for 2,000 years. 

Just to clarify both for myself and whoever reads this, of all the current Christian groups in the word, they can all be categorized as one of the following:
Oriental Orthodox
Eastern Orthodox
Roman Catholic
Protestant
Assyrian Church of the East

Is this list complete, or are there even more (besides Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons)?  If this list is complete, then it drives the point even further as to why I have been so interested in who exactly the Assyrian church is.  It just seems so, well, “interesting” that they have continually remained in existence for 2,000 years as the only completely isolated “fringe” group of ancient Christianity.  Please understand I’m not trying to justify Assyrian/Nestorian theology, I just want to make sure I’m understanding the whole picture here.

Actually, their theology is not pure Nestorianism: after the Fifth Ecumenical Council their father Babai the Great brought their theology more in line with Orthodoxy.


Quote
Praise God!  Do you know of any links or other ways to find more information about Iraqi and Iranian Orthodoxy? 

Part of what prompted my current research was a conversation with a man from my parish who said he is of Persian ancestry, and that he has heard of “Persian Orthodox” Christians.  I know he would be very interested to know more about this subject.

EP Demetrius was a time was the Greek bishop of Tehran.

Many emigree groups from Russia ended up there, as did many of the Assyrians who reunited with the Orthodox Church. There are also a lot of Armenian Orthodox there, as always.

In Iraq, there are a number of Arab Orthodox under Antioch.
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Offline _Seraphim_

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2008, 11:23:41 PM »
Yes, but they [current-day Arian groups] have not had continous organizational existence for 2000 years...


Do you happen to know any titles these groups go by?  Are you referring to Gnostics or Essenes?  I mention these two groups in particular because I have personally encountered people who claim to be Gnostics or Essenes who are studying with masters that can trace their lineage back to Christ (of course they have absolutely no tangible historic evidence to support this claim).
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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2008, 11:36:33 PM »
They had millions of people at one point. One of their patriarchs was even Chinese!


Yes, I was reading about the Assyrian church's presence in China.  There are Gospel manuscripts and stone sculptures/carvings of crosses from the Assyrian Christians in China that date back to as early as the 7th century.
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Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2008, 11:37:01 PM »
Do you happen to know any titles these groups go by? 

http://arian-catholic.org/

This is one of the groups. Notice how the icon of Arius (see the Introduction to Arian Catholicism section) is actually an icon of St. Spyridon. Stupidity knows no bounds...

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2008, 11:43:22 PM »
Actually, their theology is not pure Nestorianism: after the Fifth Ecumenical Council their father Babai the Great brought their theology more in line with Orthodoxy.


I also read a little about this... how the Assyrian church is not "Nestorian" in the classic OO/EO understanding of the word.

So I assume father Babai the Great's efforts were not sufficient to bring the Assyrian church close enough to Orthodoxy to allow for even remotely hopeful interactions with OO or EO?... even in today's world of inter-global communication?


Many emigree groups from Russia ended up there, as did many of the Assyrians who reunited with the Orthodox Church. There are also a lot of Armenian Orthodox there, as always.


So is there any talk of these Assyrians becoming their own indigenous Orthodox branch?... or has the diaspora been too severe for that to be a feasible option?
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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2008, 11:47:40 PM »
The Assyrian Church of the East is the predominant christian church of Iraq and Iran. The Assyrian church while labeled 'nestorian' are not not neccesarily nestorian. They do count Nestorius as one of their own but their  christology is not based on his heresy of 2 hypostasis of Christ. There christology is very similar to that of Chalcedon. Since their church was never within the boundaries of the Roman Empire they gradually were forgotten.

The Assyrian Church was indeed at one time Orthodox. The Orthodox Church counts Jacob Aphraates, bishop of a province in Persia as a Church Father who wrote around 345 a.d.  The followers of Nestorius under persecution eventually emigrated to Iraq and were absorbed into the Assyrian church where some influence did indeed take place. St Isaac the Syrian ( of Nineveh) was a bishop and theologian of the Assyrian (nestorian) Church around 700 a.d. Ironically St Isaac is a glorified Saint of the Eastern Orthodox church.  

The chaldeans are basically Assyrian Eastern Catholics. In America a large number of them are concentrated in San Diego and Detroit. The Chaldeans speak a slightly different aramaic dialect from the Assyrians.



Edited to replace the "U" word with "Eastern Catholics."


« Last Edit: March 25, 2008, 04:53:51 PM by Salpy »

Offline buzuxi

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2008, 11:55:11 PM »
Just if anyone is interested or wants to google for more info, the head of the Assyrian Church is Catholicos- Patriarch Mar Dinkha IV

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2008, 12:03:28 AM »
Thank you everyone for your informative replies.  They are a great help.   :)

A couple more questions:

So, are there any other groups like the Assyrian church?  I have heard that the Assyrians are Nestorians (and therefore obviously heretical, both from an OO and EO perspective).  Are there, for instance, any Arian groups still in existence?  I guess this is the main factor about the Assyrians that initially confused me: that a non-Orthodox (neither OO nor EO) group still continued to exist for 2,000 years. 

Just to clarify both for myself and whoever reads this, of all the current Christian groups in the word, they can all be categorized as one of the following:
Oriental Orthodox
Eastern Orthodox
Roman Catholic
Protestant
Assyrian Church of the East

Is this list complete, or are there even more (besides Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons)?  If this list is complete, then it drives the point even further as to why I have been so interested in who exactly the Assyrian church is.  It just seems so, well, “interesting” that they have continually remained in


The Maronites united under the bishop of Rome and predominant in Lebanon and scattered around that area including a community in Cyprus were originally a seperate church and most likely at one time monotheletes.

Offline _Seraphim_

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2008, 12:03:46 AM »
I don't really see what makes this so unique. The Church of the East was Orthodox for the first five centuries A.D. Why is the survival of the Nestorian church for 1,500 years post-schism any more remarkable than the survival of the Latin church 1,000 years post-schism?

Good point.  The comparison is indeed legit.  I suppose my issue is that I have always seen Rome as always being in the right place at the right time, at least in regards to earthly/political power and success.
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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2008, 12:07:33 AM »
http://arian-catholic.org/
This is one of the groups.

Thanks, I didn't realize there are actually groups today that are 100% openly Arian (as opposed to Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons who don't even know they're Arian!).

Notice how the icon of Arius (see the Introduction to Arian Catholicism section) is actually an icon of St. Spyridon. Stupidity knows no bounds...

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Offline _Seraphim_

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2008, 12:18:05 AM »
The Assyrian church while labeled 'nestorian' are not not neccesarily nestorian.

So why do they remain outside of communion with both OO and EO?

They do count Nestorius as one of their own but their  christology is not based on his heresy of 2 hypostasis of Christ. There christology is very similar to that of Chalcedon. Since their church was never within the boundaries of the Roman Empire they gradually were forgotten.

This is very interesting.  Do you know of any literature available on the subject?

The Assyrian Church was indeed at one time Orthodox. The Orthodox Church counts Jacob Aphraates, bishop of a province in Persia as a Church Father who wrote around 345 a.d... St Isaac the Syrian ( of Nineveh) was a bishop and theologian of the Assyrian (nestorian) Church around 700 a.d. Ironically St Isaac is a glorified Saint of the Eastern Orthodox church. 

Very interesting indeed.


The chaldeans are basically Assyrian uniates.... The Chaldeans speak a slightly different aramaic dialect from the Assyrians.

So are the Assyrians basically Orthodox then?  ;) 
It makes me curious as to what Rome's criteria was in accepting the Chaldean's theology (of course this is indeed a tricky subject considering Rome itself is not exactly theologically sound).


Once again, everyone, thank you for your input... and I hope I'm not the only one here learning something new.
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Offline Salpy

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2008, 02:20:50 AM »
Babai the Great worked to synthesize the Christology of Theodore of Mopsuestia (Nestorius' teacher) with more Orthodox sounding language.  However, Babai continued to deny the Theopaschite formula ("One of the Trinity suffered in the flesh") and he never accepted the Third Ecumenical Council.  The Church of the East to this day rejects the Theopaschite formula and the Third Council.  This keeps them from being Orthodox, at least from an OO perspective. 

They historically have accepted the language of Leo's Tome and the formula of Chalcedon, but I think it can be said that they give them a different interpretation than the EO's did after Constantinople II.  In other words, they may speak of two natures and one person, but they attribute different actions to the two natures as if they were persons.  To this day they venerate Theodore and Nestorius as saints.

Then of course there is the thing they are probably most known for, which is denying that the Virgin Mary is the Mother of God, ("Theotokos.")  This is similar to the refusal to say that One of the Trinity suffered in the flesh.  It shows they believe in less of a union of Christ's divinity and humanity than the OO's and post-Constantinople II EO's.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2008, 02:31:55 AM by Salpy »

Offline John of the North

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2008, 02:27:30 AM »
So why do they remain outside of communion with both OO and EO?

I believe its because they refuse to anathemnatize Nestorius, although they may not tacitly approve of his heresy, by refusing to condemn him, its just as bad...
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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2008, 02:43:04 AM »
The Assyrian Church of the East is the predominant christian church of Iraq and Iran.


Actually, the Armenians are the largest Christian group in Iran.  The Assyrians are the largest Christian ethnic group in Iraq, but I'm not sure if the Chaldeans or the Church of the East is the bigger group.

One of the things that decimated the number of Assyrians was the Genocide of 1915.  It's often remembered as the Armenian Genocide, but many Assyrians were killed also.  The Turks' goal was really to eliminate non-Muslims from the Eastern part of their Empire and the Assyrians were there along with the Armenians.  They suffered greatly during that time. 

I've pointed out in other threads that it is not uncommon for Armenians and Assyrians to intermarry.  The two groups have been neighbors for so many centuries and recently have suffered so much persecution together, it should not be a surprise.  My grandfather's cousin married an Assyrian girl after coming to America, after the Genocide.  I therefore have cousins who are part Assyrian, but they are Armenian Orthodox.

Offline buzuxi

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2008, 03:00:13 AM »
Very interesting.  I do believe the Chaldeans outnumber the Assyrians but im not 100 percent sure . Thats ironic that you bring up the intermarriage between Armenians and Assyrians. I know of an Assyrian girl straight out of Iraq who does have some armenian heritage. 
Since i brought up the Maronites, we should not forget that 50,000 of them were slaughtered in Turkey and in Lebanon between 1840-1860 by the Ottomons who allied themselves with the Druze sect to rid this tiny community.   

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #23 on: March 24, 2008, 11:59:05 PM »
I believe its because they refuse to anathemnatize Nestorius, although they may not tacitly approve of his heresy, by refusing to condemn him, its just as bad...

They venerate Nestorius as a "Saint" and "Doctor." They approve of his Christology. They reject the name "Nestorian" because they primarily follow Theodore of Mopsuestia. Well, that doesn't help matters. Theodore's Christology is, if anything, far worse than Nestorius'.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2008, 11:59:29 PM by Symeon »

Offline John of the North

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2008, 04:12:12 PM »
By the way, Australia seems to a have a sizeable Assyrian Church of the East community, or at least well organized. They have an online forum, and from there I have chatted with a few members on MSN and Facebook.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2008, 04:14:02 PM by Ukiemeister »
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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2008, 04:50:08 PM »
I split off a tangent about the Chaldean Church and put it in the Orthodox/Catholic Discussion folder, in the hope that our Eastern Catholic friends would be better able to answer the questions presented.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,15188.msg216584.html#msg216584

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Re: Communion in the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2008, 08:04:53 PM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUUzkFu8GDo&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3kzhTOvZrQ&feature=related

The videos show the reception of the new Metropolitan of the Assyrians in Russia, Mar Giwargis, in a Moscow Assyrian church, possibly his cathedral.

If you watch the second video, at 5'25'', you will see how the faithful purify their hands and faces with smoke from a censer and then go to the bishop to receive Communion (?) in their hands. There seems to be another priest holding the chalice further away.

I would have some questions, in case there are any members of the Assyrian Church reading the forum:

1. Does the ACOE use leavened or unleavened bread for the Eucharist? What about the Chaldean Catholics, the Syrian (Jacobite) Church and the other OO Churches?
2. Are the people in these videos communing or maybe just receiving something like the consecrated antidora of the EO Church?
3. Has this always been the customary way to receive communion in the Church of the East (first the bread in the hand, then the wine)? Could this be the ancient universal practice (preserved in the Orthodox Church in the Divine Liturgy of St. James, where both the faithful and the clergy receive Communion in the same way), or perhaps an innovation borrowed from modern day Roman Catholics?

I asked whether the Syrian Jacobite, the Coptic and the Ethiopian Church use unleavened bread for the Eucharist (as I know the Armenian Church does), since Saint Ephrem the Syrian, who is universally revered in these Churches, has several authentic hymns (De azymis), in which he fervently condemns this practice.
 
« Last Edit: June 17, 2008, 08:09:18 PM by Romaios »

Offline Salpy

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2008, 08:52:34 PM »
Among the OO's, the Armenian Church is the only Church to use unleavened bread.  The tradition is ancient and has its roots in the belief that leaven represents sin.  This has been discussed elsewhere.  If I can find the other threads, I'll link them.

I have no idea what the Church of the East uses.  Unfortunately, we don't have any posters from that Church here.

We do have at least one Chaldean here, though.  You may want to repost some of your questions about the Chaldeans in the Orthodox-Catholic forum.  He also may know the practices of the Church of the East.

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #29 on: June 17, 2008, 09:25:49 PM »
To me, the bread in the second video looked leavened.  Another interesting thing I saw was that the people were crossing themselves right to left, like the EO's.  OO's go from left to right.

Again, your best bet of learning more is to ask our Chaldean friend Rony.  You may want to revive this thread over there:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,15188.msg216584.html#top


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Re: Communion in the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #30 on: June 17, 2008, 11:12:22 PM »
1. Does the ACOE use leavened or unleavened bread for the Eucharist? What about the Chaldean Catholics, the Syrian (Jacobite) Church and the other OO Churches?

The Assyrians use leaven.  In fact, they use 'Holy Leaven'.  They save a portion of raw dough from each preparation and use it to leaven the following weeks dough.  You've got it - sourdough.  They believe that the original leaven came from the Last Supper and consider it to be a Divine Mystery/Sacrament (they also consider the Sign of the Cross to be one as well).
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« Last Edit: June 17, 2008, 11:15:41 PM by Heracleides »
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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #31 on: June 17, 2008, 11:15:50 PM »
http://arian-catholic.org/

This is one of the groups. Notice how the icon of Arius (see the Introduction to Arian Catholicism section) is actually an icon of St. Spyridon. Stupidity knows no bounds...

I just read through this site. These guys are nut cases. I could understand if there was actually some from of historical connection but these guys can be lumped under the rest of the Restorationists. In short it's Jehovah's witness with Saints and Sacraments.
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Offline Salpy

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Re: Communion in the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #32 on: June 17, 2008, 11:18:41 PM »
The Assyrians use leaven.  In fact, they use 'Holy Leaven'.  They save a portion of raw dough from each preparation and use it to leaven the following weeks dough.  You've got it - sourdough.  They believe that the original leaven came from the Last Supper and consider it to be a Divine Mystery/Sacrament (they also consider the Sign of the Cross to be one as well).
.

Thank you.  This rang a bell in my head as I seemed to recall that this is one of their sacraments.  I found this:

http://www.assyrianchurch.com.au/sacraments.htm

Offline Irish Melkite

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #33 on: June 18, 2008, 03:12:06 AM »
Also, even if neither of these are in communion with any OO or EO, are there any Persian/Assyrian/Iranian/Iraqi Orthodox churches?

Seraphim,

See my post in this thread for some info about the Assyrian Orthodox Church, which entered into union with ROCOR, but, afaik, is no longer a distinguishable ecclesial entity.

Many years,

Neil
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Offline A Sombra

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #34 on: June 18, 2008, 03:32:16 AM »
  There was a group from the Assyrian Church of the East that converted to the Orthodox Church in 1898. "In the mid 1890's, Abun Mar Yonan, the Nestorian Bishop of Urmia, petitioned the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church that he and his flock be received into the Russian Church. Mar Yonan traveled to Saint Petersburg in 1898, where he and several of his clergy accepted Orthodoxy. They were received into the Russian Orthodox Church by confession of faith and vesting on the Feast of the Annunciation at the Holy Trinity Cathedral in Saint Alexander Nevsky Lavra. The services were presided over by Metropolitan Pallady (Raev) of Saint Petersburg ... Also in 1898, the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church established the Russian Ecclesiastical Mission in Urmia, in order to aid Mar Yonan in the conversion and education of his flock." http://www.roca.org/bishop_john.htm

  Along with Bishop Yonan, Archimandrite Elia (Abraham) converted to Orthodoxy in 1898; after the death of Bishop Yonan, he was consecrated to the Episcopate and succeeded Bishop Yonan. After the Russian Revolution, Bishop Elia could no longer communicate with Patriarch Tikhon in Moscow, and joined the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad. Bishop Elia died in 1928, and he was succeeded by Bishop John (Gewarigis) who was consecrated to the Epicopate in Belgrade in 1931 by Metropolitan Antony (Khrapovitsky) and Archbishop Germogen (Maximov).
   
   "In 1918, he was part of the exodus of Christians- Orthodox, Armenians, Uniates, and Protestants alike-from northern Persia due to renewed persecution by the Moslems. Over 100,000 Christians fled northern Persia heading south to Iraq; untold numbers were massacred along the way. The Orthodox Assyrians eventually ended up in Baghdad. The future Bishop John almost immediately returned to Urmia, to attend to those Orthodox Assyrians who had stayed behind.

   Bishop John resided in Baghdad where most of his flock lived. He retired due to old age in 1945, and eventually made his way to the U.S., where he lived with his son in Chicago. In the early 1950's, Bishop Nikon (Rklitsky, later Archbishop of Washington and Florida), while visiting Chicago, "had a wonderful meeting with Bishop John of Urmia and Salma, the eldest member of our Council of Bishops, and spiritual head of the Orthodox Assyrians." Vladika Nikon noted that Bishop John spoke the same language as that spoken by Christ the Savior, and had been the translator at the Russian Ecclesiastical Mission in Urmia. After moving to Chicago to live in retirement, he found there were several thousand of his fellow Orthodox Assyrians, who were spiritually undernourished, living in the Chicago area. When Vladika Nikon visited Bishop John, he found him "surrounded by Americans of Assyrian origin," to whom Bishop John was reading the Bible in their native language. The Synod of Bishops, through Archbishop Gregory (Borishkevitch) of Chicago and Cleveland (later of Chicago, Detroit and Midwest America), Protopresbyter Arkadii Tsepuro, Protopresbyter George Grabbe (later Bishop Gregory of Washington & Florida), and Protopresbyter Adrian Rymarenko (later Archbishop Andrei of Novo Diveyevo) arranged for Bishop John to live in retirement at the Novo Diveyevo Convent in Spring Valley, New York. He reposed at Novo Diveyevo in 1960 at the age of 105, and is buried in the cemetery located there." http://www.roca.org/bishop_john.htm "Bishop John (Gevargizov) of Urmia & Salma, 1855-1960"

For the complete story of the conversion of the Orthodox Assyrians in 1898, see:
Abramtsov, Father David
'The Assyrians of Persia and the Russian Orthodox Church'
One Church
No. 6, 1960

Also interesting, concerning the Assyrians:
Coakley, J.F.
The Church of the East and the Church of England: A History the Archbishop of Canterbury's Assyrian Mission
Clarendon Press
Oxford, England 1992

Brief descriptions:
Bolshakoff, Serge
The Foreign Missions of the Russian Orthodox Church
SPCK
London, England 1943


Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #35 on: June 18, 2008, 06:10:39 AM »
They had millions of people at one point. One of their patriarchs was even Chinese!
An article about the quite unique missionary work of the Church of the East along the trade routes to China..
 
 "By Foot to China"  
http://www.aina.org/books/bftc/bftc.htm
 
"....to the memory of the men of God who thirteen centuries ago first took the gospel to China - "the missionaries who traveled on foot, sandals on their feet, a staff in their hands, a basket on their backs, and in the basket the Holy Scriptures and the cross. They went over deep rivers and high mountains, thousands of miles, and on the way, meeting many nations, they preached to them the gospel of Christ."

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #36 on: June 18, 2008, 08:17:05 AM »
Thank you all for your answers.

Here's another video, showing Assyrians from the same church in Moscow communing from the chalice (5'45''), as well. So this is indeed the way they receive Communion - both species separately:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9v2ehtxz9Q4&feature=related

The consecration of an Assyrian church (the former parish of Mar Bawai Soro reconsecrated?). Beautiful chant!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oquLxgLHN7E

Offline _Seraphim_

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #37 on: June 18, 2008, 01:59:53 PM »
Seraphim,
See my post in this thread for some info about the Assyrian Orthodox Church...


Awesome!  Thanks for sharing.  :)
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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #38 on: June 18, 2008, 02:01:03 PM »
There was a group from the Assyrian Church of the East that converted to the Orthodox Church in 1898...


Very interesting indeed... thanks for the info!  :)
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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #39 on: June 18, 2008, 02:04:27 PM »
An article about the quite unique missionary work of the Church of the East along the trade routes to China...

Very thorough article.  Thank you!  :)
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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #40 on: June 18, 2008, 02:09:07 PM »
The consecration of an Assyrian church (the former parish of Mar Bawai Soro reconsecrated?). Beautiful chant!

Does anyone know if this building being reconsecrated as an Orthodox (under ecclesiastical hierarchy) parish?

Thank you, Romaios, for sharing... and welcome to the forum.  :)
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Offline Didymus

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #41 on: June 22, 2008, 09:50:51 AM »
http://arian-catholic.org/

This is one of the groups. Notice how the icon of Arius (see the Introduction to Arian Catholicism section) is actually an icon of St. Spyridon. Stupidity knows no bounds...

Forgive me if I'm misinformed please but I believe you will find that that website is run by disenchanted Catholics who embrace Arianism yet are too aware of Church history to become JWs.
~~~

There are Coptic and Syrian Churches in the areas which you asked about. (They may not always opperate above ground but that's not a first in Christianity either.)

I can't recall what it's called right now but our local mission has a book in its bookstore which I've read bits of about the modern state of the Assyrians and it basically says they are still just as heretical as ever. They still divide Christ and do not believe that He was God when born of St. Mary.

Their history has been chequered and I've heard (can anyone confirm please) that there was a period when they recanted their false teaches and accepted the Eastern Orthodox stance (which may be about the time of St. Isaac?). Can anyone confirm or deny this please?

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Offline JawaMan

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #42 on: July 22, 2008, 03:32:15 AM »
People on an Assyrian forum I went to told me that the Assyrian Church of the East accepts all baptized Christians to communion. In my opinion, this is because the Church is so small and pressured by the rest of Christendom, especially Catholicism, to be more inclusive.

Offline Salpy

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #43 on: July 22, 2008, 03:20:51 PM »
People on an Assyrian forum I went to told me that the Assyrian Church of the East accepts all baptized Christians to communion.

This is my understanding also.  It is not surprising, when you think about how isolated and persecuted the Church of the East is.  They are in communion with no one and they are one of the most persecuted Churches of the 20th and 21st centuries.  It's during times of persecution that you really realize how valuable unity with others can be.   

Offline Andrew21091

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #44 on: August 06, 2008, 02:46:17 PM »
Yes, but they have not had continous organizational existence for 2000 years...

I think Jehovah’s Witnesses would fall under the category of Arianism.

Offline Jesus_Is_God

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #45 on: February 10, 2011, 01:34:45 PM »
@Symeon The Assyrians are better then you piece of SLASH!. That is only my reply in this SLASH! forum. I wish if I could see and I will show who are the Assyrians and thier worse faith piece of SLASH!.
For using such a language you receive a 30-day-long post moderation. All your posts will have to be approved by the mods before publishing. Welcome to the forum - Michał Kalina.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 01:39:07 PM by Michał Kalina »

Offline jewish voice

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #46 on: January 05, 2015, 01:29:31 PM »
Anyone have more info on this group? Do they have churches in the US or UK

Offline Papist

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #47 on: January 05, 2015, 02:23:43 PM »

Then of course there is the thing they are probably most known for, which is denying that the Virgin Mary is the Mother of God, ("Theotokos.")  This is similar to the refusal to say that One of the Trinity suffered in the flesh.  It shows they believe in less of a union of Christ's divinity and humanity than the OO's and post-Constantinople II EO's.

Aren't the Assyrians now willing to profess that Mary is "The Mother of Christ our God?"
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Offline gueranger

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #48 on: January 05, 2015, 02:24:00 PM »
What do you guys think about the Common Christological Declaration of the Roman Catholic Church and the Assyrian Church of the East?

Is this document Orthodox, or too ambiguous? I imagine the Oriental Orthodox would have some serious objections to it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Christological_Declaration_Between_the_Catholic_Church_and_the_Assyrian_Church_of_the_East

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #49 on: January 05, 2015, 02:33:12 PM »
What do you guys think about the Common Christological Declaration of the Roman Catholic Church and the Assyrian Church of the East?

Is this document Orthodox, or too ambiguous? I imagine the Oriental Orthodox would have some serious objections to it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Christological_Declaration_Between_the_Catholic_Church_and_the_Assyrian_Church_of_the_East
I wonder how an Oriental Catholics would feel about it.
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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #50 on: January 05, 2015, 02:34:13 PM »
I personally don't like this language: "assuming from the holy Virgin Mary a body animated by a rational soul." I would prefer that it say, "assuming a human nature."
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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #51 on: January 05, 2015, 02:34:59 PM »
But I do like this: "His divinity and his humanity are united in one person, without confusion or change, without division or separation."
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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #52 on: January 05, 2015, 02:36:38 PM »
The Wiki article states, "The declaration went on to create a mixed committee for further theological dialogue between the two (now sister) churches. In 2001 this committee drew up guidelines for mutual admission to the eucharist between the Chaldean Catholic Church and the Assyrian Church of the East."

Does anyone know anything more about this?
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Offline gueranger

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #53 on: January 06, 2015, 08:27:44 AM »
In 2001 this committee drew up guidelines for mutual admission to the eucharist between the Chaldean Catholic Church and the Assyrian Church of the East."

Does anyone know anything more about this?

It caused quite a fuss in traddy circles, because one of the Liturgies of the Assyrian Church of the East has no words of institution, and the Vatican said it was valid.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20011025_chiesa-caldea-assira_en.html

Quote
Finally, the words of Eucharistic Institution are indeed present in the Anaphora of Addai and Mari, not in a coherent narrative way and ad litteram, but rather in a dispersed euchological way, that is, integrated in successive prayers of thanksgiving, praise and intercession.

...

When Chaldean faithful are participating in an Assyrian celebration of the Holy Eucharist, the Assyrian minister is warmly invited to insert the words of the Institution in the Anaphora of Addai and Mari, as allowed by the Holy Synod of the Assyrian Church of the East.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2015, 08:28:53 AM by gueranger »

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #54 on: January 06, 2015, 11:31:16 AM »
In 2001 this committee drew up guidelines for mutual admission to the eucharist between the Chaldean Catholic Church and the Assyrian Church of the East."

Does anyone know anything more about this?

It caused quite a fuss in traddy circles, because one of the Liturgies of the Assyrian Church of the East has no words of institution, and the Vatican said it was valid.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20011025_chiesa-caldea-assira_en.html

Quote
Finally, the words of Eucharistic Institution are indeed present in the Anaphora of Addai and Mari, not in a coherent narrative way and ad litteram, but rather in a dispersed euchological way, that is, integrated in successive prayers of thanksgiving, praise and intercession.

...

When Chaldean faithful are participating in an Assyrian celebration of the Holy Eucharist, the Assyrian minister is warmly invited to insert the words of the Institution in the Anaphora of Addai and Mari, as allowed by the Holy Synod of the Assyrian Church of the East.
But what about intercommunion. Did Rome give the go ahead for Catholics to receive Holy Communion in the Assyrian Churches? As far as I understand, Rome still forbids all Catholics from communing outside of the Catholic Church.
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Offline Regnare

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #55 on: January 06, 2015, 11:46:18 AM »
But what about intercommunion. Did Rome give the go ahead for Catholics to receive Holy Communion in the Assyrian Churches? As far as I understand, Rome still forbids all Catholics from communing outside of the Catholic Church.
Here is the actual agreement. It seems to be only to the degree that Catholics are allowed to commune in Orthodox churches, i.e., when there is no Catholic church available:
Quote
4. Guidelines for admission to the Eucharist
Considering the liturgical tradition of the Assyrian Church of the East, the doctrinal clarification regarding the validity of the Anaphora of Addai and Mari, the contemporary context in which both Assyrian and Chaldean faithful are living, the appropriate regulations which are foreseen in official documents of the Catholic Church, and the process of rapprochement between the Chaldean Church and the Assyrian Church of the East, the following provision is made:
1. When necessity requires, Assyrian faithful are permitted to participate and to receive Holy Communion in a Chaldean celebration of the Holy Eucharist; in the same way, Chaldean faithful for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister, are permitted to participate and to receive Holy Communion in an Assyrian celebration of the Holy Eucharist.
2. In both cases, Assyrian and Chaldean ministers celebrate the Holy Eucharist according to the liturgical prescriptions and customs of their own tradition.
3. When Chaldean faithful are participating in an Assyrian celebration of the Holy Eucharist, the Assyrian minister is warmly invited to insert the words of the Institution in the Anaphora of Addai and Mari, as allowed by the Holy Synod of the Assyrian Church of the East.
4. The above considerations on the use of the Anaphora of Addai and Mari and the present guidelines for admission to the Eucharist, are intended exclusively in relation to the Eucharistic celebration and admission to the Eucharist of the faithful from the Chaldean Church and the Assyrian Church of the East, in view of the pastoral necessity and ecumenical context mentioned above.
It is much easier to actually do this with the Assyrians than with the Orthodox, as the Assyrians have a policy of semi-open communion, admitting anyone who confesses the Real Presence.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2015, 11:46:44 AM by Regnare »

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #56 on: January 06, 2015, 11:55:02 AM »
But what about intercommunion. Did Rome give the go ahead for Catholics to receive Holy Communion in the Assyrian Churches? As far as I understand, Rome still forbids all Catholics from communing outside of the Catholic Church.
Here is the actual agreement. It seems to be only to the degree that Catholics are allowed to commune in Orthodox churches, i.e., when there is no Catholic church available:
Quote
4. Guidelines for admission to the Eucharist
Considering the liturgical tradition of the Assyrian Church of the East, the doctrinal clarification regarding the validity of the Anaphora of Addai and Mari, the contemporary context in which both Assyrian and Chaldean faithful are living, the appropriate regulations which are foreseen in official documents of the Catholic Church, and the process of rapprochement between the Chaldean Church and the Assyrian Church of the East, the following provision is made:
1. When necessity requires, Assyrian faithful are permitted to participate and to receive Holy Communion in a Chaldean celebration of the Holy Eucharist; in the same way, Chaldean faithful for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister, are permitted to participate and to receive Holy Communion in an Assyrian celebration of the Holy Eucharist.
2. In both cases, Assyrian and Chaldean ministers celebrate the Holy Eucharist according to the liturgical prescriptions and customs of their own tradition.
3. When Chaldean faithful are participating in an Assyrian celebration of the Holy Eucharist, the Assyrian minister is warmly invited to insert the words of the Institution in the Anaphora of Addai and Mari, as allowed by the Holy Synod of the Assyrian Church of the East.
4. The above considerations on the use of the Anaphora of Addai and Mari and the present guidelines for admission to the Eucharist, are intended exclusively in relation to the Eucharistic celebration and admission to the Eucharist of the faithful from the Chaldean Church and the Assyrian Church of the East, in view of the pastoral necessity and ecumenical context mentioned above.
It is much easier to actually do this with the Assyrians than with the Orthodox, as the Assyrians have a policy of semi-open communion, admitting anyone who confesses the Real Presence.
Thanks. I wonder if Catholics of other sui juri Churches would be allowed to commune in an Assyrian Church. For example, I wonder what the situation would be if a Maronite Catholic were to find himself in a city where the only available Church would be an Assyrian one.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2015, 11:56:18 AM by Papist »
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Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #57 on: January 06, 2015, 11:55:39 AM »
In 2001 this committee drew up guidelines for mutual admission to the eucharist between the Chaldean Catholic Church and the Assyrian Church of the East."

Does anyone know anything more about this?

It caused quite a fuss in traddy circles, because one of the Liturgies of the Assyrian Church of the East has no words of institution, and the Vatican said it was valid.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20011025_chiesa-caldea-assira_en.html

Quote
Finally, the words of Eucharistic Institution are indeed present in the Anaphora of Addai and Mari, not in a coherent narrative way and ad litteram, but rather in a dispersed euchological way, that is, integrated in successive prayers of thanksgiving, praise and intercession.

...

When Chaldean faithful are participating in an Assyrian celebration of the Holy Eucharist, the Assyrian minister is warmly invited to insert the words of the Institution in the Anaphora of Addai and Mari, as allowed by the Holy Synod of the Assyrian Church of the East.

Well, that's interesting, considering that the ACE's liturgy (without the Words of Institution) probably hasn't changed much at all since the first few centuries, back when the Assyrians were in communion with Rome (and Constantinople, Alexandria, etc.) and no one gave a fuss about it. If not having those words wasn't a problem then, why should it be now? It seems as though the self-proclaimed "traditionalists" always seem to be the ones with the strongest attachment to later developments and ideas. It's rather analogous to those Orthodox who think the Julian calendar (or the Byzantine Rite, etc.) was handed down from on high, despite the fact that in the pre-Nicene era, there were many calendars and rites used in different places and that worked just fine and no one considered it worth breaking communion over.

Offline Papist

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #58 on: January 06, 2015, 11:57:27 AM »
In 2001 this committee drew up guidelines for mutual admission to the eucharist between the Chaldean Catholic Church and the Assyrian Church of the East."

Does anyone know anything more about this?

It caused quite a fuss in traddy circles, because one of the Liturgies of the Assyrian Church of the East has no words of institution, and the Vatican said it was valid.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20011025_chiesa-caldea-assira_en.html

Quote
Finally, the words of Eucharistic Institution are indeed present in the Anaphora of Addai and Mari, not in a coherent narrative way and ad litteram, but rather in a dispersed euchological way, that is, integrated in successive prayers of thanksgiving, praise and intercession.

...

When Chaldean faithful are participating in an Assyrian celebration of the Holy Eucharist, the Assyrian minister is warmly invited to insert the words of the Institution in the Anaphora of Addai and Mari, as allowed by the Holy Synod of the Assyrian Church of the East.

Well, that's interesting, considering that the ACE's liturgy (without the Words of Institution) probably hasn't changed much at all since the first few centuries, back when the Assyrians were in communion with Rome (and Constantinople, Alexandria, etc.) and no one gave a fuss about it. If not having those words wasn't a problem then, why should it be now? It seems as though the self-proclaimed "traditionalists" always seem to be the ones with the strongest attachment to later developments and ideas. It's rather analogous to those Orthodox who think the Julian calendar (or the Byzantine Rite, etc.) was handed down from on high, despite the fact that in the pre-Nicene era, there were many calendars and rites used in different places and that worked just fine and no one considered it worth breaking communion over.
It does seem to be a problem that Latin Traditionalists are overly concerned with conformity to one specific way of understanding the Divine Mystery. This is especially problematic in light of the fact that, as you point out, many Latin formulation of dogma and tradition did not arrive on the scene until after a long period of greater theological and liturgical diversity.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2015, 11:58:41 AM by Papist »
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Offline kijabeboy03

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #59 on: January 07, 2015, 07:41:53 AM »
In 2001 this committee drew up guidelines for mutual admission to the eucharist between the Chaldean Catholic Church and the Assyrian Church of the East."

Does anyone know anything more about this?

It caused quite a fuss in traddy circles, because one of the Liturgies of the Assyrian Church of the East has no words of institution, and the Vatican said it was valid.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20011025_chiesa-caldea-assira_en.html

Quote
Finally, the words of Eucharistic Institution are indeed present in the Anaphora of Addai and Mari, not in a coherent narrative way and ad litteram, but rather in a dispersed euchological way, that is, integrated in successive prayers of thanksgiving, praise and intercession.

...

When Chaldean faithful are participating in an Assyrian celebration of the Holy Eucharist, the Assyrian minister is warmly invited to insert the words of the Institution in the Anaphora of Addai and Mari, as allowed by the Holy Synod of the Assyrian Church of the East.

Well, that's interesting, considering that the ACE's liturgy (without the Words of Institution) probably hasn't changed much at all since the first few centuries, back when the Assyrians were in communion with Rome (and Constantinople, Alexandria, etc.) and no one gave a fuss about it. If not having those words wasn't a problem then, why should it be now? It seems as though the self-proclaimed "traditionalists" always seem to be the ones with the strongest attachment to later developments and ideas. It's rather analogous to those Orthodox who think the Julian calendar (or the Byzantine Rite, etc.) was handed down from on high, despite the fact that in the pre-Nicene era, there were many calendars and rites used in different places and that worked just fine and no one considered it worth breaking communion over.

Roman Catholic fundamentalists are hung up on the Words of Institution, Byzantine Orthodox fundamentalists over explicit epicleses - to each their own ;-).
« Last Edit: January 07, 2015, 07:42:15 AM by kijabeboy03 »
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Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #60 on: January 07, 2015, 11:36:02 AM »
In 2001 this committee drew up guidelines for mutual admission to the eucharist between the Chaldean Catholic Church and the Assyrian Church of the East."

Does anyone know anything more about this?

It caused quite a fuss in traddy circles, because one of the Liturgies of the Assyrian Church of the East has no words of institution, and the Vatican said it was valid.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20011025_chiesa-caldea-assira_en.html

Quote
Finally, the words of Eucharistic Institution are indeed present in the Anaphora of Addai and Mari, not in a coherent narrative way and ad litteram, but rather in a dispersed euchological way, that is, integrated in successive prayers of thanksgiving, praise and intercession.

...

When Chaldean faithful are participating in an Assyrian celebration of the Holy Eucharist, the Assyrian minister is warmly invited to insert the words of the Institution in the Anaphora of Addai and Mari, as allowed by the Holy Synod of the Assyrian Church of the East.

Well, that's interesting, considering that the ACE's liturgy (without the Words of Institution) probably hasn't changed much at all since the first few centuries, back when the Assyrians were in communion with Rome (and Constantinople, Alexandria, etc.) and no one gave a fuss about it. If not having those words wasn't a problem then, why should it be now? It seems as though the self-proclaimed "traditionalists" always seem to be the ones with the strongest attachment to later developments and ideas. It's rather analogous to those Orthodox who think the Julian calendar (or the Byzantine Rite, etc.) was handed down from on high, despite the fact that in the pre-Nicene era, there were many calendars and rites used in different places and that worked just fine and no one considered it worth breaking communion over.

The Latin position crystallized in the 13th century as the Scholastic movement defined the "moment" of transubstantiation to be when Christ's "words of Institution" are spoken by the priest. This of course ignores the first millennium, where such a question never seems to have bothered anyone all that much, as well as ignoring the aforementioned ancient Anaphora of Mari and Addai of the Assyrian Church which does not contain these words. The first millennium position, in so far as the question was even entertained, seems to be that the Eucharist has become the Lord's Body and Blood at the conclusion of the prayers - the Eucharistic liturgy is an integral whole and it is pointless to divide it up. I think the Byzantine emphasis on the epiklesis as the "moment" is an overreaction to the Latin position - committing the same error in needing to identify the "moment" but polemically picking a point that is much less evident in the Roman Mass.

I think the "Byzantine superiority" of some Orthodox and the "Roman superiority" of Catholic traditionalists comes from the same place - "Of course the [Byzantine/Roman] rite is the best; everyone who used something else ended up a heretic!"
Woe is me, that I have read the commandments,
   and have become learned in the Scriptures,
and have been instructed in Your glories,
   and yet I have become occupied in shameful things!

(Giwargis Warda, On Compunction of Soul)

Offline wgw

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #61 on: January 17, 2015, 06:40:24 AM »
I've been to the local Assyrian Church, and two of their clergy are among my close friends.  Their liturgy is evocative of that of the Syeiac Orthodox Church, being entirly in East Syriac, but the structure is different.  There are four scripture lessons culminating in the gospel.  Interestingly, the two Old Testament lessons appear to me at first glance to correspond with the Torah/haftarah portions of the Jewish lectionary, not on a date basis but rather on the basis of the pairing of individual haftarah with specific Torah chapters; it struck me as lining up not infrequently on chapter and verse boundaries.  Historically Assyrian and Chaldean churches had Bemas, and these are being retrofitted at present.

There are three liturgies, the most famous being that of Ss. Addai and Mari.  This is used also by the Syro Malabar Catholics and the Chaldeans.  In its original form as used by the Assyrians it lacks an institution narrative, which was inserted into the Catholic variants.  The others are the Liturgy of Nestorius, which is believed to be a recension of that of St. Basil, St. John Chrysostom or another liturgy in use at Constantinople, and named for Neatorius on account of its origin.  It is used on a few feast days throughout the year.  Then there is the Liturgy of Theodore of Mopsuesria, which Dom Gregory Dix argued was not actually written by Theodore, but was rather the traditional Lituegy of Mopsuestia, on the basis of the words of this liturgy not quite agreeing with the interpretation of them he provided in his commentary on the liturgy (if I recall, Theodore felt the prepared unconsecrated bread and wine represented the dead flesh and blood of our Lord, and the epiclesis resurrected it.

I myself have translations of Addai and Mari and Nestorius, and some daily prayers, but I lack a good English translation of the Liturgy of Theodore of Mopsuestia, so if anyone knows of one I would appreciate it.  It is the default used from Advent until Easter, then they switch to Addai and Mari, however, Addai and Mari is used for the nightly liturgy in the Rogation of the Ninevites, which they celebrate together with the Oriental Orthodox.
I am Oriental Orthodox but love the Eastern Orthodox, and the Byzantine liturgy.  I also love the Western liturgy.  I hope for the reconciliation of our churches.

Please forgive any offense my posts cause; none is intended. No statements I make should be regarded as authoritative, regardless of tone. Let us bless the Lord ar all times.

Offline Salpy

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #62 on: January 17, 2015, 12:52:14 PM »
You may want to contact this priest:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,47112.0.html

He may have what you are looking for, or know where you can get it.

Offline wgw

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #63 on: January 18, 2015, 06:02:40 PM »
The consecration of an Assyrian church (the former parish of Mar Bawai Soro reconsecrated?). Beautiful chant!

Does anyone know if this building being reconsecrated as an Orthodox (under ecclesiastical hierarchy) parish?

Thank you, Romaios, for sharing... and welcome to the forum.  :)

That liturgy is definitely an Assyrian Church of the East liturgy.  Note the distinctive vesture of the deacons with characteristic yellow stoles with red crosses and fringes, the vesrment of the celebrant in a Roman stole, the Syriac/Armenian style tiered altar, but, unlike in an Armenian or Ayriac church, the absence of iconography.  Notice also how the deacons form a V shape around rhe celebrant.
I am Oriental Orthodox but love the Eastern Orthodox, and the Byzantine liturgy.  I also love the Western liturgy.  I hope for the reconciliation of our churches.

Please forgive any offense my posts cause; none is intended. No statements I make should be regarded as authoritative, regardless of tone. Let us bless the Lord ar all times.

Offline wgw

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #64 on: January 18, 2015, 06:04:42 PM »
You may want to contact this priest:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,47112.0.html

He may have what you are looking for, or know where you can get it.

Ha!  It's a small world.  Fr. Ephraim is one of my best friends.   He's no longer with the Antiochian church though, he returned to the Assyrian church.  And alas last time we spoke he did not know of a good translation of Theosore of Mopsuestia in its entirety.
I am Oriental Orthodox but love the Eastern Orthodox, and the Byzantine liturgy.  I also love the Western liturgy.  I hope for the reconciliation of our churches.

Please forgive any offense my posts cause; none is intended. No statements I make should be regarded as authoritative, regardless of tone. Let us bless the Lord ar all times.

Offline wgw

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #65 on: January 18, 2015, 06:09:58 PM »
People on an Assyrian forum I went to told me that the Assyrian Church of the East accepts all baptized Christians to communion. In my opinion, this is because the Church is so small and pressured by the rest of Christendom, especially Catholicism, to be more inclusive.

They accept all baptized Christians who believe the Eucharist truly becomes the body and blood of Jesus Christ.  That limits the playing field to Ccatholics, Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, Anglo Catholics of the Dom Gregory Dix variety who reject the 39 Articles, and probably, Lutherans and a few other groups (Old Catholics and the numerous indepdent Carholic churches, some of which I have an affection for).
I am Oriental Orthodox but love the Eastern Orthodox, and the Byzantine liturgy.  I also love the Western liturgy.  I hope for the reconciliation of our churches.

Please forgive any offense my posts cause; none is intended. No statements I make should be regarded as authoritative, regardless of tone. Let us bless the Lord ar all times.

Offline Salpy

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #66 on: January 18, 2015, 08:10:27 PM »
You may want to contact this priest:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,47112.0.html

He may have what you are looking for, or know where you can get it.

Ha!  It's a small world.  Fr. Ephraim is one of my best friends.   He's no longer with the Antiochian church though, he returned to the Assyrian church.  And alas last time we spoke he did not know of a good translation of Theosore of Mopsuestia in its entirety.

I did not know he went back to the Assyrian Church. 

If he doesn't have the text you want, I don't know who would.   ???

Offline wgw

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #67 on: January 18, 2015, 11:30:21 PM »
Indeed I seem to have reached a proverbial dead end.  So I guess I'd better start brushing up on my Syriac (after all, aside from the ancient liturfy of Mopsuestia, there's the 59 or so Anaphorae of the Syriac Orthodox Church that have never been translated).
I am Oriental Orthodox but love the Eastern Orthodox, and the Byzantine liturgy.  I also love the Western liturgy.  I hope for the reconciliation of our churches.

Please forgive any offense my posts cause; none is intended. No statements I make should be regarded as authoritative, regardless of tone. Let us bless the Lord ar all times.

Offline Avdima

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #68 on: January 19, 2015, 01:07:00 AM »
In 2001 this committee drew up guidelines for mutual admission to the eucharist between the Chaldean Catholic Church and the Assyrian Church of the East."

Does anyone know anything more about this?

It caused quite a fuss in traddy circles, because one of the Liturgies of the Assyrian Church of the East has no words of institution, and the Vatican said it was valid.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20011025_chiesa-caldea-assira_en.html

Quote
Finally, the words of Eucharistic Institution are indeed present in the Anaphora of Addai and Mari, not in a coherent narrative way and ad litteram, but rather in a dispersed euchological way, that is, integrated in successive prayers of thanksgiving, praise and intercession.

...

When Chaldean faithful are participating in an Assyrian celebration of the Holy Eucharist, the Assyrian minister is warmly invited to insert the words of the Institution in the Anaphora of Addai and Mari, as allowed by the Holy Synod of the Assyrian Church of the East.

Well, that's interesting, considering that the ACE's liturgy (without the Words of Institution) probably hasn't changed much at all since the first few centuries, back when the Assyrians were in communion with Rome (and Constantinople, Alexandria, etc.) and no one gave a fuss about it. If not having those words wasn't a problem then, why should it be now? It seems as though the self-proclaimed "traditionalists" always seem to be the ones with the strongest attachment to later developments and ideas. It's rather analogous to those Orthodox who think the Julian calendar (or the Byzantine Rite, etc.) was handed down from on high, despite the fact that in the pre-Nicene era, there were many calendars and rites used in different places and that worked just fine and no one considered it worth breaking communion over.

Great Post...

Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #69 on: January 19, 2015, 02:53:14 PM »
Indeed I seem to have reached a proverbial dead end.  So I guess I'd better start brushing up on my Syriac (after all, aside from the ancient liturfy of Mopsuestia, there's the 59 or so Anaphorae of the Syriac Orthodox Church that have never been translated).

There's so much Syriac that hasn't been translated - plenty of work for burgeoning Syriacists! For my dissertation I'm editing and translating a group of onyatha by Giwargis Warda; there's around 150 of them in the ktaba d-warda, but only about 35 or so have made their way to a Western language.
Woe is me, that I have read the commandments,
   and have become learned in the Scriptures,
and have been instructed in Your glories,
   and yet I have become occupied in shameful things!

(Giwargis Warda, On Compunction of Soul)

Offline sakura95

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #70 on: January 19, 2015, 03:48:27 PM »
There's very little resource I could find about the ACOE. But I've been wondering for a long time, what's their view on the Saints. Do they pray to them for intercession?

I know that there was a person who said that they have a more Lutheran viewpoint about the Saints. I checked the source linked by the said person and I'm very doubtful about it. So hence my question.
My Lord, My Lord, give my worthless soul the illumination of Wisdom in your mercy

Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #71 on: January 19, 2015, 04:02:50 PM »
There's very little resource I could find about the ACOE. But I've been wondering for a long time, what's their view on the Saints. Do they pray to them for intercession?

I know that there was a person who said that they have a more Lutheran viewpoint about the Saints. I checked the source linked by the said person and I'm very doubtful about it. So hence my question.

One of my professors is Chaldean, born in Mosul, and the Chaldeans certainly pray to the saints; he says that everyone in that region, at least when he was a child, Chaldean, Assyrian or Muslim (and some Jews), visited the tombs of saints and venerated their relics. The East Syrian tradition certainly has a much less-developed liturgical cultus of the saints than the Orthodox or Catholics, but it is a part of popular piety, at least to some degree. There is an article that gives some primary sources for evidence that East Syrians used icons in the pre-Islamic and early-Islamic period: Herman Teule, “The Veneration of Images in the East Syriac Tradition,” in Die Welt der Götterbilder. I will be visiting my school this weekend; I will see if I can track down that article.
Woe is me, that I have read the commandments,
   and have become learned in the Scriptures,
and have been instructed in Your glories,
   and yet I have become occupied in shameful things!

(Giwargis Warda, On Compunction of Soul)

Offline sakura95

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #72 on: January 19, 2015, 04:14:12 PM »
One of my professors is Chaldean, born in Mosul, and the Chaldeans certainly pray to the saints; he says that everyone in that region, at least when he was a child, Chaldean, Assyrian or Muslim (and some Jews), visited the tombs of saints and venerated their relics. The East Syrian tradition certainly has a much less-developed liturgical cultus of the saints than the Orthodox or Catholics, but it is a part of popular piety, at least to some degree. There is an article that gives some primary sources for evidence that East Syrians used icons in the pre-Islamic and early-Islamic period: Herman Teule, “The Veneration of Images in the East Syriac Tradition,” in Die Welt der Götterbilder. I will be visiting my school this weekend; I will see if I can track down that article.

Interesting. So I suppose the Assyrians pray to the Saints though their liturgical cultus of the saints is less developed.
My Lord, My Lord, give my worthless soul the illumination of Wisdom in your mercy

Offline wgw

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #73 on: January 19, 2015, 04:33:46 PM »
In spite of not calling her Theotokos, the Assyrians do heavily venerate St. Mary, and the local parish has a special Dormition service every August 15.

By the way, I will confess to, in the past, before my Orthodox formation had really begun, Ireceived communion at the Assyrian church (actually before I knew better I took communion from pretty much,everyone, including the Episcopalians; their bread and wine had certainly not become the body and blood of our Lord as the,white wine they used gave me horrible heartburn; the Eucharist, if it's real, should not be able to cause indigestion; on the other hand I have known the Eucharist from the Orthodox Church to make me feel better).  I will say the Assyrians have hands down the tastiest bread, perhaps owing to their Malka sacrament in which the ancient yeast is reused.  The communion is followed by sweetened antidoron.  Taking communion at the Assyrian church made me crave pizza.  I can't say if it's a valid Eucharist or not, as unlike with the Episcopal church nothing unpleasant followed taking it, and alas I don't have a trans-substantiometer that can examine the substance of objects apart from their accidents.

In general the Assyrians are good people and I've spent a lot of time wrestling with the hypothetical question of how to restore communion between them, the Oriental Orthodox and the Eastern Orthodox.  The Christological agreements with the Vatican and the reforms made by Mar Dinkha certainly suggest a common christology exists at least as far as the Roman Catholic interpretation of Chalcedon.  The Oriental Orthodox also came to a similiar agreement with Rome.  So really it seems to me the personal question about the veneration of Nestorius is the main dividing issue at present.  In the 1990s the Oriental Orthodox nearly did a deal with them but it fell apart over the Coptic insistence that the Assyrians anathematize Nestorius in the liturgy; Mar Dinkha IV is opposed to liturgical anathemas as a general principle.  Anyone who loves the Syriac Orthodox, as do I, will also love and care about the other Syriac churches, the Assyrians and Chaldeans, who actually use Syriac in the vernacular more than anyone else, and the Maronites and Syriac Catholics, and all the Nasrani churches.  

For that matter, it's hard to be a lover of Syriac Christianity and not find the Mandaeans fascinating: they are the Aramaic speaking Gnostics who follow John the Baptist as their chief prophet, view Jesus as an imposter and the Holy Spirit (described in the feminine, as in St. Ephrem, a typically Semitic detail) to be evil, baptize every Sunday, use as the banner of their community a cross with a fabric drape called a durshan or darshan, follow astrology that appears connected with the ancient Chaldean religion of the Babylonians, and make use of sacred threads and other accoutrements that closely resemble Zoroastrianism.
I am Oriental Orthodox but love the Eastern Orthodox, and the Byzantine liturgy.  I also love the Western liturgy.  I hope for the reconciliation of our churches.

Please forgive any offense my posts cause; none is intended. No statements I make should be regarded as authoritative, regardless of tone. Let us bless the Lord ar all times.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #74 on: January 19, 2015, 05:20:47 PM »
In the 1990s the Oriental Orthodox nearly did a deal with them but it fell apart over the Coptic insistence that the Assyrians anathematize Nestorius in the liturgy; Mar Dinkha IV is opposed to liturgical anathemas as a general principle.  

I wonder if some sort of misunderstanding occurred then.  His Eminence Metropolitan Bishoy explained it as if it was some sort of deception by the Assyrian Church, where they promised on anathematizing Nestorius only to renege on that promise later.  But I have noticed that the Assyrian Church is moving towards lifting anathemas in general, even if they may have disagreements with those whom they have anathematized in the past.  So perhaps when HE Metropolitan Bishoy heard that they are willing to lift the anathema against St. Cyril, they thought that meant they are rejecting Nestorius, which is not the intention. 

There is also the other possibility of the actor playing in this role, Mar Bawai Soro, who for reasons obscured by Church politics at the moment, defected from the Assyrian Church and went to the Chaldean Catholic Church.  He was the Assyrian Church's largest ecumenical theologian at the time, and he was the one HE Metropolitan Bishoy referred to in his objection to the Assyrian Church's proposals and alleged "reneging".

So I hope this calls for fresh talks and discussions later on in the future.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #75 on: January 19, 2015, 05:39:17 PM »
By the way, I will confess to, in the past, before my Orthodox formation had really begun, Ireceived communion at the Assyrian church (actually before I knew better I took communion from pretty much,everyone, including the Episcopalians; their bread and wine had certainly not become the body and blood of our Lord as the,white wine they used gave me horrible heartburn; the Eucharist, if it's real, should not be able to cause indigestion; on the other hand I have known the Eucharist from the Orthodox Church to make me feel better).

I don't know that I would agree with this.  The Eucharist is the Eucharist, but if you drink too much of the Blood (e.g., if you are purifying vessels at the end), you might feel the effects of alcohol; if the Body goes down the wrong pipe, you will choke; if you are sick, and receive Communion, you might vomit soon after anyway (this happened to me once); and so on. 

Quote
I will say the Assyrians have hands down the tastiest bread, perhaps owing to their Malka sacrament in which the ancient yeast is reused.  

We follow the same tradition in India, but I don't think I would say it's the tastiest bread.  It's certainly distinctive and I love the tradition. 

Quote
The communion is followed by sweetened antidoron.  Taking communion at the Assyrian church made me crave pizza.

:)

Quote
Anyone who loves the Syriac Orthodox, as do I, will also love and care about the other Syriac churches, the Assyrians and Chaldeans, who actually use Syriac in the vernacular more than anyone else, and the Maronites and Syriac Catholics, and all the Nasrani churches.

+1
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Offline Irish Melkite

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #76 on: January 30, 2015, 04:12:09 AM »
Anyone have more info on this group? Do they have churches in the US or UK

About which group are you asking? If the Assyrian Church of the East, yes they do - in fact their Patriarch resides in the US. Their centers of highest density are in Illinois and California, but there are 3 dioceses in all in the US and 1 in Canada. They have churches in the UK under a diocese that encompasses all of Europe.

The Ancient Church of the East (which split with the Assyrians a half-century ago over several issues, including calendar and the residence of the patriarchate) has only relatively recently established a diocese in North America, although the bishop is non-residential being an auxiliary to the metropolitan of Baghdad and responsible for both Syria and North America. They made some calendar changes about 5 years ago in what was seen as a move toward dialogue and a joint synod was proposed, but I don't believe a date has been set. 

Many years,

Neil
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Offline jewish voice

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #77 on: January 30, 2015, 10:53:10 PM »
Anyone have more info on this group? Do they have churches in the US or UK

About which group are you asking? If the Assyrian Church of the East, yes they do - in fact their Patriarch resides in the US. Their centers of highest density are in Illinois and California, but there are 3 dioceses in all in the US and 1 in Canada. They have churches in the UK under a diocese that encompasses all of Europe.

The Ancient Church of the East (which split with the Assyrians a half-century ago over several issues, including calendar and the residence of the patriarchate) has only relatively recently established a diocese in North America, although the bishop is non-residential being an auxiliary to the metropolitan of Baghdad and responsible for both Syria and North America. They made some calendar changes about 5 years ago in what was seen as a move toward dialogue and a joint synod was proposed, but I don't believe a date has been set. 

Many years,

Neil
I was just wondering. I wanted to see if they might be around me to see their liturgy once. I couldn't find church listings and thought they might not be here

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #78 on: January 31, 2015, 01:33:33 AM »
There is a list of parishes here, but it might not be complete. Also quite a few of the parishes seem to be mislabeled (e. g., there are ACOTE parishes listed as Catholic).

By far most of the parishes seem to be in California, with a few in Illinois. I know for a fact that there aren't any in my state.

Offline Irish Melkite

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #79 on: January 31, 2015, 05:09:53 AM »
There is a list of parishes here, but it might not be complete. Also quite a few of the parishes seem to be mislabeled (e. g., there are ACOTE parishes listed as Catholic).


The labels can be problematic. Some of the parishes that joined the Chaldeans with Mar Barwai Soro adopted the terminology 'Assyro-Chaldean' and there are, as well, some Assyrian parishes also using that terminology.

Many years,

Neil
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Offline Regnare

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #80 on: January 31, 2015, 12:27:32 PM »
I will say the Assyrians have hands down the tastiest bread, perhaps owing to their Malka sacrament in which the ancient yeast is reused.  
We follow the same tradition in India, but I don't think I would say it's the tastiest bread.  It's certainly distinctive and I love the tradition. 
Do both Jacobites and Malankara Orthodox follow the tradition of Malka, or just one? Do any other Indian churches outside the East Syriac Rite?

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Questions about the “Assyrian Church of the East”
« Reply #81 on: January 31, 2015, 01:40:33 PM »
I will say the Assyrians have hands down the tastiest bread, perhaps owing to their Malka sacrament in which the ancient yeast is reused.  
We follow the same tradition in India, but I don't think I would say it's the tastiest bread.  It's certainly distinctive and I love the tradition. 
Do both Jacobites and Malankara Orthodox follow the tradition of Malka, or just one?

As far as I know, both follow it. 

Quote
Do any other Indian churches outside the East Syriac Rite?

I doubt it.  The "Eastern" Protestant churches use RC style hosts.  The Eastern Catholics manufacture their own RC style hosts (the seal is Eastern, but not much else) or just use the RC hosts.   
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