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Author Topic: New movie “Expelled” challenges Darwinian theory  (Read 47017 times) Average Rating: 0
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ialmisry
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« Reply #45 on: March 30, 2008, 11:14:56 PM »

Thank you, George, but I'm afraid your voice will not fall on receptive ears, especially in the religious community. People would rather listen to people with money than people with ideas.

Assertion.  Care to explain and back it up?

Quote
As far as the movie trailer itself, I found Ben Stein's use of Holocaust images to be both tedious and insulting. Comparing your pet peeve to the Holocaust is tired rhetoric and hardly adds to the debate. Moreover, comparing the current debate between scientists who conduct actual research and ignorami who do not even understand the theory they so abhor to genocide insults the memory of every Holocaust victim. It reduces them to the victim of a philosophy rather than of the atrocities of a man who chose to hate. One can only hope Ben Stein's movie falls under the same "persecution" that happened to Mel Gibson.
You mean that Ben makes millions?
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« Reply #46 on: March 30, 2008, 11:28:35 PM »

I'm going to really put the cat amongst the pigeons and state that what I have seen on the net concerning the underhanded practices of the people who are connected to this production is appalling. Whatever the merits are of a cause, they aren't served by deceit.

Richard Dawkins claims to have been duped with regard to the nature of the documentary. PZ Myers, who was also featured in the doco claims the same and he was actually expelled - ironic, isn't it? - from the theatre where the film was shown. If anyone is interested, the details are at http://blog.dave.org.uk/2008/03/expelled-no-intelligence-allow.html where there is a link to a discussion between Dawkins and Myers after the showing of the film. Dawkins has his own blog page already up and running. Titled "Lying for Jesus" it's at http://richarddawkins.net/article,2394,Lying-for-Jesus,Richard-Dawkins.

As a Christian, I believe it's part of our walk to be ridiculed for our belief in a Risen Lord, and hey nonny nonny, we take it on the chin. However, Christians ridiculed as paranoid liars is a growing trend within the scientific and atheist communities.

Shouldn't we be putting aside any reservations we might have concerning the theory of evolution and joining in the outcry that fellow theists have stooped to dishonourable measures. As it is, we have egg on our faces, and can do nothing but cringe that, not only are our beliefs ridiculed again, we are being denounced as unethical liars, all because of the outrageous behaviour of a few noise makers.

Please forgive me if I cause offence, but truth is more important to me than any attempt to put atheists in their place; especially an attempt that is on such shakey ground. And I hate to see the "other side" get the upper hand because we, as Christians, dropped the ball. Whatever anti-evolutionists believe, the end does not justify the means.
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« Reply #47 on: March 30, 2008, 11:31:18 PM »

Nice... this movie was produced in more or less the same manner as Borat.
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« Reply #48 on: March 30, 2008, 11:38:31 PM »

Nice... this movie was produced in more or less the same manner as Borat.

Funny, that's what I thought too.  What a shame.  This is the ridicule I think St. Augustine worried about as well:

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Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he hold to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn.
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« Reply #49 on: March 30, 2008, 11:50:10 PM »

Funny, that's what I thought too.  What a shame.  This is the ridicule I think St. Augustine worried about as well:

I believe you are correct. I have no idea what the film Borat is, though. Huh Smiley
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« Reply #50 on: March 30, 2008, 11:51:11 PM »

I have no idea what the film Borat is, though. Huh Smiley

Consider yourself lucky. 
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« Reply #51 on: March 31, 2008, 12:21:48 AM »

Consider yourself lucky. 


LOL - That bad, eh?
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« Reply #52 on: March 31, 2008, 12:25:29 AM »

I think it has been mentioned several times that I teach High School.  You just noticing?

Sorry to disappoint, I'm not your OC.net stalker.  I pretty much use OC.net to pass the time during boring lectures and when I have time to kill (i.e when I should be studying)... so hardly read every thread.

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I think it also came up that you don't have children.

Not sure what that has to do with anything, but when my fiancee and I, God willing, have children someday we plan to teach them evilution... and raise them as Christians. 

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The problem with US children is the brat progeny of Dr. Spock, whose repentance of it has been mentioned on another thread.  In conection with the gun scare at my school Friday

That'd be nice, expect that countries far more progressive than Dr. Spock have far lower rates of violent crime and school shootings (which are a very new fad in Europe and copy cats from God's very own USA).  But this seems to be how you typically post in a thread: throw in a bunch of random information that has no relevance at all but shows how some grand liberal and godless conspiracy (run of course by GiC and I) is destroying the world.  All that is missing is you starting each post with "Jane, you ignorant..." 

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survey of high school science teachers, showing some number (40%?) didn't believe in evolution.

If one drops the former CSA states, hopefully that number becomes something more reasonable.   
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« Reply #53 on: March 31, 2008, 12:28:34 AM »


LOL - That bad, eh?

Enjoy: http://youtube.com/watch?v=QF1_rxZEQNU

I made it about 15 minutes into the movie before I stopped watching, that's how bad it was. 
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« Reply #54 on: March 31, 2008, 12:33:02 AM »

Enjoy: http://youtube.com/watch?v=QF1_rxZEQNU

I made it about 15 minutes into the movie before I stopped watching, that's how bad it was. 

Oh dear, I see what you mean.
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« Reply #55 on: March 31, 2008, 01:49:00 AM »

S
Not sure what that has to do with anything, but when my fiancee and I, God willing, have children someday we plan to teach them evilution... and raise them as Christians. 

Ok Nektarios did you write that consciously, because I think I busted my colon laughing at that HAHAHA
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« Reply #56 on: March 31, 2008, 01:53:27 AM »

Ok Nektarios did you write that consciously, because I think I busted my colon laughing at that HAHAHA

Oh, I missed the "evilution"!! LOL
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« Reply #57 on: March 31, 2008, 03:02:40 AM »

Ok Nektarios did you write that consciously

 Wink Grin
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ialmisry
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« Reply #58 on: March 31, 2008, 07:14:08 AM »

Sorry to disappoint, I'm not your OC.net stalker.  I pretty much use OC.net to pass the time during boring lectures and when I have time to kill (i.e when I should be studying)... so hardly read every thread.

No disappointment.  Sorry to burst the projection of paranoia.  It's been mentioned on threads I've parried with you and Greeki.

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Not sure what that has to do with anything,

when you do, perhaps you will figure it out.

 
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but when my fiancee and I, God willing, have children someday we plan to teach them evilution... and raise them as Christians.
 
And the smugness rolls on.  Where are you taking those boring lectures again?

Quote
That'd be nice, expect that countries far more progressive than Dr. Spock have far lower rates of violent crime and school shootings (which are a very new fad in Europe and copy cats from God's very own USA).  But this seems to be how you typically post in a thread: throw in a bunch of random information that has no relevance at all but shows how some grand liberal and godless conspiracy (run of course by GiC and I) is destroying the world.  All that is missing is you starting each post with "Jane, you ignorant..."
 

Yes, the great right wing conspiracy strikes again.

As for you and Greeki, fish don't know they are wet.

Btw, I've been to Europe. Several times in fact, and was married to one. A lot of the social conformity, even in the heard of independent minds, has a lot to do with the difference.

Quote
If one drops the former CSA states, hopefully that number becomes something more reasonable.   

And the argument from ignorance rolls on.  What's with the animus with the South?

Btw, I'm in a blue state, Illinois, and an even bluer city, Chicago.

And with that, I think I'll start focusing on fora less and on Great Lent more.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2008, 08:41:04 AM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #59 on: March 31, 2008, 09:40:52 AM »

I'm only against those theories that exclude God as creator. I think you can have forms of evolution, which was started/caused by God. However, you cannot have absolute darwinism/evolution, because it takes God out of the picture. Yet even in the Creed it states: "I Believe in One God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible" So we know God created ALL things. Thus to say everything comes from evolution, and all life is a cause of evolution is against our own Creed. Yet to believe that God caused evolution among living things (Created them, then caused evolution) I think, is not against the Creed.

Personally, I could care less how God did it, that isn't for me to know. All I know is that everything was created by him.
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« Reply #60 on: March 31, 2008, 12:48:49 PM »

Yes, the great right wing conspiracy strikes again.

I have nothing against right wing ideology - I'm a card carrying Republican and quite happy to live in the home state of the great Barry Goldwater.  There is a difference between not wanting religious zealots to set school curricula over legitimate science and paranoia.  Thankfully the whole evolution "debate" is laughable and should be a non-issue by the time I have high school age children.  Then I can focus on my real grievances with the US education system: not teaching foreign languages well, kids graduating with no knowledge of even the classic literary works in their native language, lack of any real teaching of history etc.

Quote
Btw, I've been to Europe. Several times in fact, and was married to one. A lot of the social conformity, even in the heard of independent minds, has a lot to do with the difference.

Ok, so you concede my point that the problems among American youth are a bit more complex than simply scapegoating Dr. Spock's ideas.  I feel like I'm talking to Michael Moore - take a few unrelated events, a few axes to grind and voilà...

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What's with the animus with the South?

Sherman's march wasn't extensive enough. 

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Btw, I'm in a blue state, Illinois, and an even bluer city, Chicago.

Your bad.

Quote
And with that, I think I'll start focusing on fora less and on Great Lent more.

And with it being Opening Day for the Diamondbacks and the first pitch being in just over an hour, definitely less time on the forum around here. 
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« Reply #61 on: March 31, 2008, 12:58:36 PM »

I really don't care about ANY "isms."

You're preaching to the choir here, Heorhij.  Wink  I was going to put "Darwinism" in quotation marks in my post, but decided against it.
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« Reply #62 on: March 31, 2008, 01:19:08 PM »

I'm only against those theories that exclude God as creator. I think you can have forms of evolution, which was started/caused by God. However, you cannot have absolute darwinism/evolution, because it takes God out of the picture.

In order to avoid duplication of arguments, could you please seek out the  many discussions we've had? You see, we've been over this topic....ummm, well, quite a few times here at OC.net.  I am expecting Heorhij to enter the picture any second with a reasoned refutation of your remarks, so I will try and save him the trouble....

Scientific theories cannot, by their very nature, either include or exclude God.  It is not within the realm of how science works to incorporate or not incorporate an element of the divine.  Unfortunately, people who are otherwise very competent scientists seem to be incompetent enough in other areas of life that they arrogantly assume, (along with some theologians who should know better) that science has all the answers for any metaphysical  questions that might trouble humanity.  Other theologians who should know better (and many who are simply incompetent and incapable of knowing better) oppose these scientists and apostate(?) theologians, replaying the scene that has been played on the Western stage of civilisation since at least the time of Galileo and probably earlier.  The Western Church, by agreeing to counter "science" on its own playing field (ie, on terms defined by "science"), has condemned itself to losing the war, since only "scientific" criteria of "proof" can be accepted as evidence.  And we all know that if anything isn't rational, it must by definition be irrational, don't we? Wink  After all, we live in the post-Enlightenment West.  Of course, I shouldn't just cite the West and leave out the East, because the whole world is now so under the thraal of Western categories of "normalcy", that it doesn't know what has hit it.  It seems to me that a lot of Orthodox have this kind of knee-jerk reaction to the whole debate and side with "creationists".  It's like they're saying to themselves:  "hmmm.  Orthodoxy is "conservative", right?  Guess I'd better show my conseravative colours and stand up for "creationism"!"  (Of course, Orthodoxy is neither conservative nor liberal, but the living faith of the apostles...but this is a discussion for another thread.) 

BTW, I'd like to pre-empt a bashing from GIC or lubeltri or whoever else who would like to accuse me of being anti-Enlightenment or anti-Western.  I actually think that a lot of good things came out of the Enlightenment.  I really value science, in fact I am a scientist of sorts, though of a much humbler variety than Heorhij.  I don't mean to say that science cannot enter the realm of the metaphysical at times; in fact, fascinating work being done in physics right is going in this direction, and it's mind boggling.  But in the field of evolution?  For now, at any rate, there is no mixture at all.

I am a convinced Orthodox Christian.  I am also a convinced believer in evolution.  Are there things that we don't understand fully?  Absolutely, on both the theological and scientific end of things.  Just because evolution appears to be random is no reason at all to deny God's hand in things.  (How spiritually childish and oafishly cataphatic can one be?  This points to  one reason of several why I personally find this debate so tiresome.)  What appears as being "random" to us limited human creatures indeed hides greater mysteries beyond our understanding.
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« Reply #63 on: March 31, 2008, 04:10:30 PM »

isn't what it all comes down to that science has a lot of question marks - the most significant being that there is no theory that addresses how matter is created out of nothing.  Sure, we have the big bang and everything that comes after it, but nobody can explain HOW or WHY all of this came about. 

so I don't see why science and religion have to be in opposition to each other.  In fact, it seems like a uniquely American debate.  and a very superficial one, at that.

As for Mr. Stein, I'm not a fan.  He comes across as a blowhard with very strong opinions about things he knows litte about (his recent financial columns are quite bad).  And the movie itself seems like a Michael Moore-esque one-sided farce.  I'll still watch it though, because it looks entertaining. 
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« Reply #64 on: March 31, 2008, 04:25:09 PM »

Assertion.  Care to explain and back it up?
Sure. Hypothetically: Take a noteworthy scientist and ask them to explain a theory they've been working on. Count the number of people who show up. Now take a celebrity and ask them to explain the same theory. Which head count do you think will be higher?

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You mean that Ben makes millions?
I mean that I hope Stein's anti-intellectualism is revealed as clearly as Gibson's anti-semitism.
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« Reply #65 on: March 31, 2008, 05:57:48 PM »

Sure. Hypothetically: Take a noteworthy scientist and ask them to explain a theory they've been working on. Count the number of people who show up. Now take a celebrity and ask them to explain the same theory. Which head count do you think will be higher?
You said:
Thank you, George, but I'm afraid your voice will not fall on receptive ears, especially in the religious community. People would rather listen to people with money than people with ideas.
Most of the religious community do not worship the idols of secular fame.

So to answer your question, really, neither.  A group of pinheads and a group of empty heads is about the same, no matter the number.

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« Reply #66 on: April 02, 2008, 08:28:28 PM »

Sherman's march wasn't extensive enough.
I am reminded of the beautiful city of Savannah, Georgia, the jewel of the South.  It was spared by Sherman, who offered it intact to President Lincoln as a gift.  I'm stationed a few miles down the road, and I visit it often.  Just a few more months and I'll be back... Smiley

The discussion of a movie I'll probably never see may now continue...
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« Reply #67 on: April 03, 2008, 05:02:53 PM »

You said:Most of the religious community do not worship the idols of secular fame.
That's not been my experience. Dr. Phil and Oprah are just as much idols in most "Christian" homes as well. Even those who claim to be discriminating merely switch celebrities for "Christian" celebrities. They denounce Jim Carrey for his role in Bruce Almighty while praising Kirk Cameron for his role in Left Behind. The sad truth is that most Christians have no idea what their religion is all about. So yes, the words of a Christian standing by the theory of evolution as the best scientific explanation of why species change over time will likely fall on deaf ears. They certainly do around here.

Quote
So to answer your question, really, neither.  A group of pinheads and a group of empty heads is about the same, no matter the number.
I agree with you, but I would venture to guess that the millions who flocked to see Mel Gibson's piece of trash will be breaking down the doors to see this one. It all depends on how much they spend on advertising.
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« Reply #68 on: April 03, 2008, 08:07:16 PM »

Erastothenes perhaps? The objections of the Church to financing Columbus in his endevour to reach the Indies from a western sea route weren't anything to do with people believing in a flat earth. At the time, the circumference of the earth was believed to be more than it acutally is and sailing off into the sunset was considered a death sentence. I remember reading that Columbus presented a much smaller circumference that is actual to convince their Majesties of Spain. I don't recall all the details, but I do recall being flabbergasted when my elder granddaughter came home from her Christian school and told me that her teacher informed her that the Church refused to finance Columbus because Catholics at the time believed in a flat earth.  Roll Eyes

The scripture was 2 Esdras 6:52:
On the third day Thou didst command the waters to be gathered together in the seventh part of the earth; six parts Thou didst dry up and keep so that some of them might be planted and cultiveated and be of service before Thee.

Columbus figured that the Atlantic couldn't be so wide, and convinced their most catholic majesties to finance the journey.  Btw, if Ferd and Isa were "Christian" they wouldn't have paid attention to "Catholic" scripture.

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« Reply #69 on: April 03, 2008, 08:15:40 PM »

That's not been my experience. Dr. Phil and Oprah are just as much idols in most "Christian" homes as well. Even those who claim to be discriminating merely switch celebrities for "Christian" celebrities. They denounce Jim Carrey for his role in Bruce Almighty while praising Kirk Cameron for his role in Left Behind. The sad truth is that most Christians have no idea what their religion is all about. So yes, the words of a Christian standing by the theory of evolution as the best scientific explanation of why species change over time will likely fall on deaf ears. They certainly do around here.
I agree with you, but I would venture to guess that the millions who flocked to see Mel Gibson's piece of trash will be breaking down the doors to see this one. It all depends on how much they spend on advertising.

If you are refering to "the Passion" (a great movie, btw), I heard plenty on it in all quarters.  I've heard of this movie only on this thread.
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« Reply #70 on: April 03, 2008, 09:16:57 PM »

The scripture was 2 Esdras 6:52:
On the third day Thou didst command the waters to be gathered together in the seventh part of the earth; six parts Thou didst dry up and keep so that some of them might be planted and cultiveated and be of service before Thee.

Not sure what point you are making.

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Columbus figured that the Atlantic couldn't be so wide, and convinced their most catholic majesties to finance the journey.

Columbus used figures that were understated; and, of course, he had no idea that the continent of America was in the direct path of the illusive sea-route to the treasures of India etc. I don't remember the name of the chap whose figures he used and my books are still packed away, so I can't check.

Quote
Btw, if Ferd and Isa were "Christian" they wouldn't have paid attention to "Catholic" scripture.

Not sure what point you are making.

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« Reply #71 on: April 04, 2008, 08:52:03 AM »

If you are refering to "the Passion" (a great movie, btw), I heard plenty on it in all quarters.  I've heard of this movie only on this thread.
So have I, but like I said, the amount of money a movie brings in is largely determined by the amount of money spent on advertisement. It is my sincere hope that this movie falls into oblivion and ruins the career of Ben Stein the way Left Behind ruined Kirk Cameron's reputation. Unfortunately, I don't think it will. We'll be hearing more on this from all quarters soon enough.
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« Reply #72 on: April 04, 2008, 09:45:18 AM »

Nice... this movie was produced in more or less the same manner as Borat.
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« Reply #73 on: May 17, 2008, 09:41:24 AM »

Not sure what point you are making.

Columbus used figures that were understated; and, of course, he had no idea that the continent of America was in the direct path of the illusive sea-route to the treasures of India etc. I don't remember the name of the chap whose figures he used and my books are still packed away, so I can't check.

Not sure what point you are making.



The point is that part of Columbus' argument to their "Most Catholic Majesties" on the smaller circumference was based in part on scripture the Protestants reject, and its interpretation.  Not saying that I agree with the interpretation, but just acknowledging the part that interpretation played in the decision to support the voyage.

Btw, I like the commercial for the movie.  Not far off from its portrayal of academia.
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« Reply #74 on: May 17, 2008, 03:44:27 PM »

I thought the movie was good. I saw it some weeks ago. I thought the movie was pretty balanced too. They allowed both sides to talk about their points.


In doing so, you saw that every Atheistic Scientist wasn't on the same level as another Atheistic scientist, and every Chreationist wasn't the same either.

You had one Atheistic scientist that was honest about the implications of Atheism. I think this one point alone, is worth seeing the movie.


Over all, I thought it was good.




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« Reply #75 on: August 25, 2008, 06:15:21 AM »

I heard a lot about this movie. I'm going to watch it--in fact several times; once for me, and once each for Nectarios, Minasoliman, Pravoslavbob, and Iambic Pen. And no, I'm not toothless! (well I am missing one tooth).

BTW, you all are aware that Columbus began his expedition with not three, but four ships?

Apparently, one fell over the  edge! Wink
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« Reply #76 on: August 25, 2008, 09:45:50 AM »

Also most of the advances in science in the last 500 years came from both Roman Catholic and Protestant christians.......who believed in both a creator and science.

many of whom were clergymen


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« Reply #77 on: August 25, 2008, 06:37:10 PM »

I heard a lot about this movie. I'm going to watch it--in fact several times; once for me, and once each for Nectarios, Minasoliman, Pravoslavbob, and Iambic Pen. And no, I'm not toothless! (well I am missing one tooth).

BTW, you all are aware that Columbus began his expedition with not three, but four ships?

Apparently, one fell over the  edge! Wink

I'm flattered and unworthy to be named among people like Nectarios and Pravoslavbob.

But I will say I get my inspiration now from people like the Catholic Dr. Kenneth Miller, PhD and the evangelical Christian Dr. Francis Collins, MD.  I encourage you to watch whatever you want to watch two more times just for these guys.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #78 on: August 25, 2008, 07:37:38 PM »

I'm flattered and unworthy to be named among people like Nectarios and Pravoslavbob.

But I will say I get my inspiration now from people like the Catholic Dr. Kenneth Miller, PhD and the evangelical Christian Dr. Francis Collins, MD.  I encourage you to watch whatever you want to watch two more times just for these guys.  Roll Eyes

I agree. Let these people be a light in a dark world of ignorance!
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« Reply #79 on: September 09, 2008, 11:12:49 PM »

Here's a funny rap video about Expelled.  : )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mkcfdrB9EQ
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« Reply #80 on: September 09, 2008, 11:20:06 PM »

Here's a funny rap video about Expelled.  : )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mkcfdrB9EQ

I don't think I'm going to be able to ever read anything by Richard Dawkins again without seeing that clip! Shame on you for corrupting an innocent yiayia!  laugh
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« Reply #81 on: September 16, 2008, 05:51:44 PM »

Please read this review:
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZGYwMzdjOWRmNGRhOWQ4MTQyZDMxNjNhYTU1YTE5Njk=
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« Reply #82 on: October 25, 2008, 04:37:30 PM »


Quote
So what’s going on here with this stupid Expelled movie? No, I haven’t seen the dang thing. I’ve been reading about it steadily for weeks now though....

And I should read further why?  Seems to confirm Ben's point: have to shut up those you can't debate.  Reading the rest of the article confirms that.
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« Reply #83 on: October 25, 2008, 04:55:43 PM »

I thought the movie was good. I saw it some weeks ago. I thought the movie was pretty balanced too. They allowed both sides to talk about their points.


In doing so, you saw that every Atheistic Scientist wasn't on the same level as another Atheistic scientist, and every Chreationist wasn't the same either.

You had one Atheistic scientist that was honest about the implications of Atheism. I think this one point alone, is worth seeing the movie.


Over all, I thought it was good.




JNORM888

It was excellent.  I can see why the PC crowd doesn't like it.  Those parallels to Stalin, Communism and Nazism always makes them nervous.  Btw, I noticed a lot of the expelled scientists, etc. went to the U of C, where I was cured of evolutionism.
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« Reply #84 on: October 25, 2008, 06:43:34 PM »

I thought the movie was good. I saw it some weeks ago. I thought the movie was pretty balanced too. They allowed both sides to talk about their points.


In doing so, you saw that every Atheistic Scientist wasn't on the same level as another Atheistic scientist, and every Chreationist wasn't the same either.

You had one Atheistic scientist that was honest about the implications of Atheism. I think this one point alone, is worth seeing the movie.


Over all, I thought it was good.




JNORM888

It was excellent.  I can see why the PC crowd doesn't like it.  Those parallels to Stalin, Communism and Nazism always makes them nervous.  Btw, I noticed a lot of the expelled scientists, etc. went to the U of C, where I was cured of evolutionism.


Oh, what nonsense.

Stalin and the rest of the Communist gang were Lamarckians, Darwinism did not fit within Marxist ideology. Furthermore, Hitler and Stalin were not the only one's who built nations on the so-called "Darwinian" ends-justify-the-means ideology. 
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« Reply #85 on: October 25, 2008, 08:04:45 PM »

It's not so much that the parallels are making whoever nervous.  It's simply a one-sided, prejudiced view of the matter.  To say that evolution lead to Hitler is like saying black people are criminals.  As I said before:

Actually Darwinism can both influence Ghandi and Hitler.  It's all about competition of moral traits, not about immorality.  So, we can rightly also say Darwinism is responsible for human altruism, human societal organization, government systems like democratic republics, etc.  These particular traits of human behavior have been more successful than traits of tyranny.  So yes, it's about survival of the fittest, and it seems that certain moral behaviors are the "fittest".

So, to say Darwinism exclusively leads to one thing just shows that Ben Stein really doesn't know what in the world he's talking about, either that or there's really an agenda, or both.

God bless.

Ben Stein either was ignorant or had underlying deceptive motives.  Don't be fooled by what a lawyer tries to tell you about science.
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« Reply #86 on: October 25, 2008, 11:58:52 PM »

I thought the movie was good. I saw it some weeks ago. I thought the movie was pretty balanced too. They allowed both sides to talk about their points.


In doing so, you saw that every Atheistic Scientist wasn't on the same level as another Atheistic scientist, and every Chreationist wasn't the same either.

You had one Atheistic scientist that was honest about the implications of Atheism. I think this one point alone, is worth seeing the movie.


Over all, I thought it was good.




JNORM888

It was excellent.  I can see why the PC crowd doesn't like it.  Those parallels to Stalin, Communism and Nazism always makes them nervous.  Btw, I noticed a lot of the expelled scientists, etc. went to the U of C, where I was cured of evolutionism.


Oh, what nonsense.

Stalin and the rest of the Communist gang were Lamarckians,

Their problem was with Mendel, not Darwin.

Quote
Darwinism did not fit within Marxist ideology.


That would be news to Lenin, who saw a troika of Hegelian dialectics, class struggle in history and the unification of the laws of evolution of Darwin and Marx.

Btw, the Marketplace-solves-all-problems crowd is just as materialistic as the Marxists.  Sorry, Gordon Gekko, greed is a deadly sin, and NEVER good.

Quote
Furthermore, Hitler and Stalin were not the only one's who built nations on the so-called "Darwinian" ends-justify-the-means ideology. 
Didn't say they were.
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« Reply #87 on: October 26, 2008, 12:17:13 AM »

It's not so much that the parallels are making whoever nervous.
Roll Eyes
Quote
It's simply a one-sided, prejudiced view of the matter.
 

Unlike the Academy. Roll Eyes police

The evolutionists had their say in the movie.  Perhaps they didn't like Dawkins being so honest.

Quote
To say that evolution lead to Hitler is like saying black people are criminals.

You're comparing apples and wombats.

Hitler and his theories make explicit reference to Darwin and Darwinism.


  As I said before:

Actually Darwinism can both influence Ghandi and Hitler.  It's all about competition of moral traits, not about immorality.  So, we can rightly also say Darwinism is responsible for human altruism, human societal organization, government systems like democratic republics, etc.  These particular traits of human behavior have been more successful than traits of tyranny.  So yes, it's about survival of the fittest, and it seems that certain moral behaviors are the "fittest".

Wasn't the history-is-ended argument put the rest already?  I've seen the Darwinists grappling with the altruism problem, without success.

Democratic republics?  Not even close: absolute monarchies are far ahead in the range of historical survival.  The United States didn't even survive its first century (unless you want to classify Sherman's march as part of Lincoln's campaign for a second term Tongue).

Quote
So, to say Darwinism exclusively leads to one thing just shows that Ben Stein really doesn't know what in the world he's talking about,
Quote

Since Mr. Stein doesn't say that, do you know what you are talking about?

 
Quote
either that or there's really an agenda, or both.
Judge not....
Quote
Ben Stein either was ignorant or had underlying deceptive motives.  Don't be fooled by what a lawyer tries to tell you about science.

Yes, that's why the evolutionists resort to the courts, as Mr. Stein shows.

I never trust a lawyer's word on anything, including the law.  In fact, especially the law.
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« Reply #88 on: October 26, 2008, 02:23:22 AM »

What did Dawkins say?  I didn't watch the movie.

You're not getting it.  Just because Hitler mentions evolution doesn't make evolution equivalent to Hitler's ideals.  When St. Constantine was emperor, he used the Cross to fight in war and kill the enemy.  Does that mean using the Cross will help you win bloody wars?  Hitler's use of evolution to justify his actions does not mean evolution is the culprit.

The battle with altruism is not so hard.  We see it in other animals.  That tells us the trait of altruism was adopted for the use of survival also.  Groups got together and seem to understand that if they help one another, love one another, they can actually survive together, and make offspring successfully.  What a novel idea!  Instead of fighting, live in peace.  This is where competition of traits come by.  The trait of altruism vs. the trait of totalitarianism.  Evolution is not the latter only, or the former only.  The fight between the traits is the fundamental law of evolution.

What I seem to understand is that the movie (which shamefully lied to Dawkins and many other evolutionists, not quite the exemplary attitude) simply explained one side of evolution, but not the other.  Yes, there are evolutionists that will show you how altruism evolved.  I don't see how "you saw evolutionists" grapple with the issue.  Are you a scientist of some sort?  Did you read journal articles?  Have you experienced a committee that had heavy debates.  How did you "see" this exactly?

I recommend two books for you, both by Christian scientists.  Ken Miller's "Finding Darwin's God" and Francis Collins "The Language of God," and I think they're brilliant and to the point in addressing not only objections to evolution, but also objections to theism from people like Dawkins.  These are where the HONEST attacks lie.  Not Ben Stein's Law School tactics.  And just to be a nitpick:

Quote
I never trust a lawyer's word on anything, including the law.  In fact, especially the law.

Then you don't trust the documentary to begin with.  Ben Stein's specialty is Law.  He takes a position, and sticks with it without regard to objectivity.  I wouldn't go as far as saying I don't trust lawyers on "anything, including the law."  But using Law School tactics on science is not valid.  One can easily come up with the refutations.
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« Reply #89 on: October 26, 2008, 10:17:14 AM »

What did Dawkins say?  I didn't watch the movie.
Roll Eyes

He says a lot of things, but one is that he up front says that he is the worst spokesman for evolution, because he would have to say under oath that theism and evolution are incompatible.  Now, that's admittedly just his opinion (one that I don't share, but many ID and Creationists and, importantly, Evolutionists do), but it comes up in the documentary when the evolutionists get into a discussion of their support from mainstream/liberal Christians.

The accute embassment of Mr. Dawkins can come from Ben's interview with him following up on the idea of Panspermia (one of the most hilarious parts of the movie on the origins of life "Aliens did it," an idea that Mr. Stein correctly identifies with Dr. Crick, whom he correctly identifies as the discoverer of DNA.  Btw, Dr. Crick accepted the position at Churchcill College because it didn't have a chapel, and resigned in protest when the College accepted the donation of one.  So much for tolerance).  Mr. Dawkins admits that life could have a designer, but admanently denies it could be God.  How objective and undogmatic. Roll Eyes

One critic said the movie contradicts itself: the first half says ID has nothing to do with religion (and it doesn't) but then the second half goes on to accuse the evolutionists with irreligion.  The critic misses the point: the evolutionists pushing the expulsion (not all evolutionsts) themselves make the point that science and religion are incompatible, and are enforcing dogmatic conformity on that issue.  Many of those pointing out that evolutionsists, not the ID people, are acting out of dogma are self-described agnostics, non-religious, Jews, etc. (Ben Stein mentions himself in the last group in passing).

Quote
You're not getting it.  Just because Hitler mentions evolution doesn't make evolution equivalent to Hitler's ideals.


You're not getting it.  Because Hitler mentions evolution means a facile statement "that's not true evolutioniary science" isn't going to do.  Marxists do just as much when they say Stalinism isn't true communism (Gorbochev went so far to say that it wasn't true Leninism Roll Eyes).  In particular when the Academy trying to discredit ID has a vested interest in claiming the rights to decide whether Nazism was properly based on evolutionary science.  You yourself said:
Actually Darwinism can both influence Ghandi and Hitler.
whicn means it is a two edged sword.  People don't like how Hitler used the sword, so they say he didn't use it properly.  How so?

Quote
When St. Constantine was emperor, he used the Cross to fight in war and kill the enemy.

I can't remember the movie when the actor grabs a processional Cross to fight off the mob.

Quote
  Does that mean using the Cross will help you win bloody wars?
Uh, who won at Milvian bridge?

Quote
  Hitler's use of evolution to justify his actions does not mean evolution is the culprit.

How about contributing factor?  Accessory?

Quote
The battle with altruism is not so hard.  We see it in other animals.  That tells us the trait of altruism was adopted for the use of survival also.  Groups got together and seem to understand that if they help one another,

Help those that help them.  A great ethicist once said "Can't the heathen do the same."

Btw, Darwin stated the lack of charity and the abundance of cruelty in the animal world of natural selection made him lose his faith in God.  Another failed seminarian.

Quote
love one another,

your anthropomorphism is showing

Quote
they can actually survive together, and make offspring successfully.

You haven't described any population in the animal world (except the human: the deprivileging of man by evolution and the consequences is something the movie touches on).  At least none that evolutionary biology has studied.

Quote
What a novel idea!  Instead of fighting, live in peace.  This is where competition of traits come by.

and Survival of the Fittest goes where?

Quote
The trait of altruism vs. the trait of totalitarianism.  Evolution is not the latter only, or the former only.

The Eugenicists make a better argument that Evolution is the former only (something the doc also shows, and yes, where Nazism comes in at that point).

Quote
The fight between the traits is the fundamental law of evolution.
What happened to the "make love, not war" you espoused above?  That "instead of fighting, live in peace?"  Now you are sounding like a Eugenicist.

Quote
What I seem to understand is that the movie (which shamefully lied to Dawkins and many other evolutionists, not quite the exemplary attitude)

I don't know: what is the ethics on undercover reporting?  Do investigators announce themselves to those they are investigating?

The movie makes reference to the fact that what many evolutionists say in public and what they say in private amongst themselves are two different things.  Is it dishonest to bring that out? (Btw, being at the U of C and working amongst Democratic constituencies, I can attest to that first hand.  Conservatives also may be guilty of the same, but no one complains when they are called on it, even when they are not guilty of it).

Quote
simply explained one side of evolution, but not the other.

You seem to know a lot about a movie you say you haven't seen.  Did you read the transcript?

What "other side" didn't it explain.  I'll give you that theist evolutionists were underrepresented.

Quote
Yes, there are evolutionists that will show you how altruism evolved.  I don't see how "you saw evolutionists" grapple with the issue.  Are you a scientist of some sort?
No.  But I took evolutionary biology at one of the leading institutions (University of Chicago), my best friend there was agnostic/leaning atheist paleontology major (who inadvertently pushed me into Orthodoxy, may God reward him).  I've worked 6 years in the med/psych field, and 8 years teaching (history, Arabic), at college, high school and elementary levels.  So I know a thing or two about being PC.

Most of the writing on this topic I admit I see through the lens of E.O. Wilson of "On Human Nature" fame.  Could be worse.  Around 2000 there was a sociobiologist who was saying that rape shouldn't be a crime because it is programmed in the genes.  That's the problem when you deconstruct free will: all things are possible.

Quote
  Did you read journal articles?
Yes. Peer reviewed.

Quote
Have you experienced a committee that had heavy debates.
 
Yes.

Quote
How did you "see" this exactly?

Originally, I came to the U of C a theist evolutionist.  Taking it, I could and can notice a proganda program when I see it.  The two biggest nails in the coffin were speciation and the "fossil record" of human evolution.

Quote
I recommend two books for you, both by Christian scientists.  Ken Miller's "Finding Darwin's God" and Francis Collins "The Language of God," and I think they're brilliant and to the point in addressing not only objections to evolution, but also objections to theism from people like Dawkins.  These are where the HONEST attacks lie.

Still quetioning Mr. Stein's honesty for a movie you haven't seen.  In shaa' al-Rabb I'll take a look at your recommendations, in particular as I'm taking my sons to the Field Museum's evolution exhibit again this week.

Quote
Not Ben Stein's Law School tactics.  And just to be a nitpick:

Just to nitpick, what "Law School tactics" are you talking about in a film you haven't seen?  If I didn't know that Ben was a lawyer (yes, I knew that before), you couldn't tell it from the movie.  It struck me more like journalism and college professors.

Quote
I never trust a lawyer's word on anything, including the law.  In fact, especially the law.

Quote
Then you don't trust the documentary to begin with.  Ben Stein's specialty is Law.


Mr. Stein has quite a few specialties, not a common feat for lawyers.  But even lawyers can make a valid argument, they just have to be evaluated separately from their "qualificitions" as a lawyer, you know, knowing what the definition of "is" "is."

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He takes a position, and sticks with it without regard to objectivity.


That the evolutionists hang themselves and their theist cohorts in the movie doesn't effect Ben's objectivity at all.  Sure, he takes a position.  So does Michael Moore.  But unlike the latter's doctoredmentaries, he connects the dots.  The only valid objection could be that more arguement could be given to those who expelled the expelled on why they expelled them. But since he gives them time to do so (most refused it), and one flatly contradicted their own written statements of the matter, and another was up front, I'm not sure an objection is valid.  The theist evolutionist could have been given their time, though.

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I wouldn't go as far as saying I don't trust lawyers on "anything, including the law."  But using Law School tactics on science is not valid.  One can easily come up with the refutations.
Then why don't they, instead of shutting down discussion?
« Last Edit: October 26, 2008, 11:08:29 AM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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